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    Thread: teaching personas, dream premonitions, astral body

    1. #1
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      teaching personas, dream premonitions, astral body

      This post covers three somewhat unrelated topics. (As a disclaimer, I'm in an exceptionally bad mood today, for reasons not directly related to the subjects here.)

      To start with, here's something that's been bothering me today, and for quite a while I guess. Of people who feel called to develop themselves spiritually, most feel called to share ideas or insights with other people. It seems to me that if we were serious about our mission, it would please us when other people join us in it. But if we were joined wholeheartedly and fruitfully, then we would no longer be special as teachers. We would just be people among numerous other people doing what we do, with nothing to set up apart. It seems to me that what's motivating a lot of 'spiritual growth' is desiring to be elevated above other people, as their teachers or benefactors. In that sense the desire isn't to help other people grow, its for them to respect us or reach up to us. In other words, its not really about growth, its about enjoying the tension or differential between more and less advanced people. And that tends to be accompanied by behavior that subtly obstructs the less advanced people as they attempt to join the ranks of the more advanced. And that contradicts the whole ostensible mission.

      Probably few people are going to admit to this way of thinking, and that its a problem, but it seems to me to be pervasive. I think that if it wasn't for the perceived self superiority, most spiritual aspirants would lose interest and turn their attention to snowboarding or the stock market or something.

      I want to apologize for whatever extent I've done that to any of you. And for any of you who have been playing that game with me and each other, and are disinclined to give it up....I wish you whatever you need for true growth. I'd curse you but I think it would be superfluous.

      On that same topic....As I see it, thoughts arise as conditions call for them, likewise for objects and events. We seem to spend a lot of time combating false or misleading thoughts. This seems to me to be about as effective as fighting pornography by shoplifting and burning copies of penthouse. While meanwhile keeping our own penthouse stash at home - after all, it doesn't hurt to have some human entertainment while in the human world fighting offensive media.


      On to the next subject....I'm thinking that precognitive dreams are most likely to happen where a future event is becoming in some sense less likely, but the impetus for it is still there. Imagine looking at something through a microscope, or focusing a light through a magnifying glass. When circumstances are changing so that something which was headed towards manifestation is no longer quite going to work out, it seems to me like it becomes somewhat out of focus relative to the physical world. As it gets sort of fragmented and spread out, its easier for us to get parts of it in dreams. So in a way it seems built in for the easiest premonitions to be slightly inaccurate, as reflections of what will almost happen or will sort of happen, not straight on 100% focused visions of what will happen.

      More generally, it seems to me that a lot of what we get in dreams is what isn't able to get through in waking life. If we're hiding from something, or missing something, that information that is denied pushes its way through in the dream. In other words that things that want to be real but can't quite become real any other way become real in our dreams. Likewise for variations on future events.


      Last week I dream of levitating by astral projecting at the top of stairs. In response to the suggestion that I was out of my body, I replied "maybe". Upon further reflection, the reason the answer was "maybe", is the astral body is a body and also not a body. So neither "yes" or "no" responses would both fail partially, and they fail in a somewhat confusing manner. Confusing to me anyway.

      In the same dream sequence, a Pinnocchio-like dildo was asked if he was perfectly homophobic, and he said "maybe". That one had me confused for a while, but the logic is the same as with the astral body riddle.


      The next night I had a fairly abstract dream about the universe, which I think I won't try to describe. I felt uplifted because of the scope of it, and the intelligence I sensed behind it. Something new. It was a happy dream. The imagery itself was fairly bleak though, in that there seemed to be no hope for redemption. In the dream we just keep cycling through various modes of enslavement to thuggish gods, there's nowhere to go that's better. I guess I'm experiencing more of the pessimistic side today.

      I have the sense that although there wasn't anywhere 'else' in our universe that's better, and although evil is a consequence of the structure of the universe itself, that structure is tied to the way we think about power. And if we change that way of thinking, if its not ultimately compelled by necessity, everything will change. Is that possible? "Maybe."

      As I understand the astral projection and tin-man dream, that's a qualified yes.
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      Member Tranquil Toad's Avatar
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      I'll just comment of the first part.

      I've felt that within myself - the using of spiritual experiences and knowledge to make me feel elevated above others. The mind tries to place itself in reference to others, to see itself as greater or less than. Almost everyone has this within them, as it forms their social identity. You can access realms beyond your ego without your ego becoming fully balanced, so it continues to behave as it did but now with spiritual material to latch onto. I don't think this really matters. There is something beyond which beckons, and the growth towards will continue.

      Light touches a plant and makes it grow. The plant may or may not brag to the other plants about how much light and growth it is receiving. Regardless, the process continues.

      Its funny to see myself get caught up in ideas and insights. Ideas are amazing, but they are just structure. There are many with very few ideas but lots of love. Who is to say who is more developed?
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      I know this thread is old-ish but I'm gonna respond to the first part. Correct me if I'm misreading your words.

      I certainly don't follow a spiritual calling because I want to be better than others. I follow one because I have to, because I was called by mental illness and sensitivity to develop myself that way. If I didn't, evil spirits (named "depression" and "mania") would overcome me and control my life.

      You seem to have elitist concerns, about why not everyone can become enlightened teachers or whatever. I'm sure some people enjoy their elevated position and want to stop others from succeeding. But to me, not everyone can be spiritually "advanced" because not everyone can devote the amount of time, energy, and intent necessary to becoming developed in that way. There are other callings in life which are just as legitimate. Society, large scale or small scale, needs many types of people in order to function.

      Admittedly, in our huge, multitasking culture, many more people have access and opportunity to pursue spiritual development. The game has been changed. But's that no reason to STOP people from becoming enlightened.

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      Hi ebulere,

      I don't disagree with you that spiritual aspiration is important, and that some people will achieve much different results than others, due to effort and other differences.

      My view has been that people's motives are decidedly mixed, and that as a consequence results are quite mixed also. Also much effort is not of a kind that would occur if motives were not mixed. Use of dangerous drugs to stimulate transcendent experiences would be an example in my opinion. Finally, people who presume to lay out spiritual paths for other people are in my observation deluded about how much wisdom they really have. Its true that some people know a lot more about certain things than other people, but I've never seen the kind of virtue and comprehensive wisdom that gurus and other teachers typically claim to have. It appears to me that the more honest people typically recognize that they do not have that kind of authority, so by self selection its the less honest ones who are making those kinds of claims.

      I'm not suggesting that people can't know more than other people, or that the shouldn't try to share what they know. But there's a big difference between that and claiming an esteemed title, or presuming to make choices for other people, or telling them what to think.

      In any case, the subject of what kind of aspiration is worthwhile, and what is the wrong thing at the wrong time is something I don't have all figured out. Some of posts are thinking aloud as I try to make better sense of this.

      Regards.
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      Sometimes people that have to learn from you appear by magic. I'm trying to learn, so I can help others. I enjoy doing it, if my ego gets turned on because of it doesn't matter, because I know what I want to do, and if I don't I'll learn.

      shadowofwind, sometimes it's better to not think much about if what you're doing is ego induced or not, sometimes doubting too much about yourself is fear and ego induced, I learnt that not long ago. Concentrate in the outcome and the used method, if you don't press them to receive your help, respect their pace, treat them well, and help them to solve a problem and to get more intouch with themselves, I think it's okay.
      Last edited by mowglycdb; 03-13-2012 at 02:03 PM.
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    6. #6
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      Quote Originally Posted by shadowofwind View Post
      To start with, here's something that's been bothering me today, and for quite a while I guess. Of people who feel called to develop themselves spiritually, most feel called to share ideas or insights with other people. It seems to me that if we were serious about our mission, it would please us when other people join us in it. But if we were joined wholeheartedly and fruitfully, then we would no longer be special as teachers. We would just be people among numerous other people doing what we do, with nothing to set up apart. It seems to me that what's motivating a lot of 'spiritual growth' is desiring to be elevated above other people, as their teachers or benefactors. In that sense the desire isn't to help other people grow, its for them to respect us or reach up to us. In other words, its not really about growth, its about enjoying the tension or differential between more and less advanced people. And that tends to be accompanied by behavior that subtly obstructs the less advanced people as they attempt to join the ranks of the more advanced. And that contradicts the whole ostensible mission.
      Shadowofwind, first all apologies for my tardiness here (I blame the DV calamity), or if you even recall these thoughts, but:

      What you say here does not speak to me of spiritual teachers, but of spiritual posers and people in need of an ego boost. If anything, a true spiritual master is nearly overwhelmed by humility on a daily basis, as he sees ever more clearly the vastness of reality and his miniscule role in it all.

      True teachers are delighted by the contributions of others, and welcome students as equals because, due to the celestial scale they've been exposed to, the difference between a human master and a human novitiate is practically unmeasurable. A true spiritual teacher is as interested in learning from his students as he is in teaching them. A spiritual teacher who elevates himself above his students (perhaps by deeming them "followers") is betraying his own spiritual dysfunction: to require yourself to be "better" than those around you -- to the point of curtailing their growth in the name of sustaining your own superiority -- is not a function of a spiritual teacher. It is a function of a charlatan, or a person with ego issues. Neither of these are people who should or could be called spiritual teachers, and they both also have little hope of real spiritual growth.

      So I guess you are correct in all you say here, save that you might have clearly delineated the two categories of spiritual teachers: those interested in growth and truth, and those interested in their own grandiosity. And sadly you might also have pointed out that the former are a very, very rare breed indeed... if they exist at all.
      Last edited by Sageous; 03-13-2012 at 08:35 PM.
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      As I have posted previously, it all looks to me like a power grab. I think it matters in the sense that part of not being a predator is learning not to be prey either. But other than that it doesn't matter. I think there's a time for sitting around doing nothing while complaining about how vain and corrupt everything is, but that time is very short.

      I've had enough with the dreaming/tripping drug scene also, which is a primary reason I haven't been posting here. Its like an experiential ponzi scheme, a hive-mind vampire sucking its own blood. Though people imagine they're progressing, all objective indications are that they're recycling the same experiences that countless other people have already had, while eroding their capability to build something better. Put down the f-ing bong and face reality. Were you abandoned or abused by your dad? Do you make a living by manipulating other people? Do you keep going through the same doomed romantic patterns over and over? The only real escape is to turn around and think and feel to understand what's really going on. Stop the shrinking away emotionally and intellectually because you're trying to continue getting away with something that the consequences you wish to escape are subtly attached to.

      On the topic of whether astral matter is real....Is money real? If you have a pile of cash it looks real, and feels real. But the federal reserve could change a policy and in an instant it would become a pile of paper. How about the money you have in the bank? Its a bunch of iron atoms all polarized in the same direction somewhere, or a bunch of electrons trapped on a material interface. And yet, money is clearly in some sense real, and its closely related to power. And power is closely related to desire. Is it made up of exotic matter somewhere? In a way it doesn't make a difference, in that matter itself is patterns of relationships and representations of of things. But one of the things that makes money real is that money can be turned into other tangible outcomes. People can by food, houses, properties, vacations, drugs, and sex. If it wasn't for that, money would be nothing. So what's with all this spiritual parasitism, such as by gurus seen and unseen, or the spirits that work through drugs, or the gods of religions? What do they gain from it? I think it comes back to what can be converted into physical outcomes. The gods need minds to think with, and bodies to live in, and wills to be marshaled as fate.

      Anyone who has been using the internet for very long knows the pattern where a new web site springs up and offers some useful or enjoyable experience for free. Then at some point after people have become attached by habit or dependent, it starts adding profit making hooks, such as selling your browsing information to advertisers. In theory, the advertizing is needed to pay for the internet experience. But the reality is that the overwhelming cost of the internet is the bandwidth needed for the advertizing, and the profits of billionaires like Zukerburg. It wouldn't take much in the way of ads at all to support the information content that people use the internet for.

      Pretty much everything else in this world works like this also. If someone has power over you, chances are they will try to use that power to abuse you eventually. But we're not all slaves, at least not entirely, because we resist that abuse, and we cultivate some degree of will not to abuse other people. Central to this we organize ourselves in a way that doesn't involve the imbalances of power that would lead to abuse. Likewise with our interactions with spirits. If we give away some of our power for the sake of an exotic experience, in the long run we're screwing ourselves. This is one way to look at drug use. People think they're in control, but that's not the trajectory at all, even though it may take decades for this to become obvious. In my view, one day of being able to soberly feel who you are and what your problems are is worth a decade in chemically or meditatively induced bliss. Face yourself and deal with who you are, and in time the bliss will come all by itself. And it will stay with you, for a while the weather will periodically storm at the surface for a while, but the ocean underneath will not come and go, subject to biochemical cycles. Likewise with gods and gurus. You will interact with them, but it won't be a slavish dynamic, where you suck up to them and they shower you with a few benefits that they produce from the control that they have over countless other devotees. If a god or spirit guide shows signs of deception, don't give them the benefit of the doubt. Call them on their bullshit. If they're true, they won't be offended by this, they'll explain what's going on in a way that you can understand and that really makes sense. If they have to resort to mystery mongering or projecting blame onto other people or demons, don't deal with them. Make yourself fit for dealing with honest souls, if there are any, or do without.

      This is what I think anyway, what I choose, and experience seems to suggest that it produces good results.

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      ^^ Bad day, Shadowofwind?

      For what it's worth, everything you said is right on the money...

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      I'm fine, thanks. Just summarizing some of my thought for the past month.

      When I'm in a good mood, I'm more direct, not shying away from speaking things directly that might clash with what some other people are thinking or doing. That makes it look like I'm in a bad mood, but its kind of backwards from that. I'm always at least a little bit in a bad mood, but I wouldn't say that this fairly characterizes my outlook.

      I've got some other new ideas I'm toying with. For example, what happens if a person makes radical changes within themselves spiritually. Does this necessarily put them more out of step with other people? Clearly that can be part of what happens, depending on the nature of change. But what if people are to some extent vessels, and if you change what fills you, then what fills the other people in your environment changes also? In other words, the spirit isn't fixed to the body, it flows through it, and who other people are changes as who you are changes.

      I'd half an inclination to post this thought, and other thoughts I'm exploring. But then I saw the discussions such related to DMT, so I decided to speak more directly to that issue, since it seems to me to be more important. I had a dream a few days ago about a world in which people worked by dreaming, and took sedatives to dream more. It was an abusive, toxic, environment. I guess I'd rather interact in a non-dream, non-drug context. Of course dreaming is important to me, but its only a part of the process, and its not the most important part of the process. And I don't mind talking and sharing with people who do drugs. I'm in the same boat as they are, in the sense that thoughts are like drugs. But I'm interested in sharing things as an alternative to that, towards moving beyond that, less like a crack den and more like an AA meeting for crack users.

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      Quote Originally Posted by shadowofwind View Post
      I've got some other new ideas I'm toying with. For example, what happens if a person makes radical changes within themselves spiritually. Does this necessarily put them more out of step with other people? Clearly that can be part of what happens, depending on the nature of change. But what if people are to some extent vessels, and if you change what fills you, then what fills the other people in your environment changes also? In other words, the spirit isn't fixed to the body, it flows through it, and who other people are changes as who you are changes.
      I personally believe that spiritual changes can put a person out of step with other people, but in a very good way. And, in the same manner that people you are walking with with unconsciously adjust their pace to yours, they may do the same with their own spirituality. I think that's why example is so important. Spirit, as an essence, might not exist at all (which would sort of suck to me), but the perception of it as at the very root of human nature. As, I believe, is our need to grow -- whether we like it or not. So yes, who other people are could change as who you are changes, if not by an actual flow of spirituality as much as by your sharing the idea of it.

      I'd half an inclination to post this thought, and other thoughts I'm exploring. But then I saw the discussions such related to DMT, so I decided to speak more directly to that issue, since it seems to me to be more important. I had a dream a few days ago about a world in which people worked by dreaming, and took sedatives to dream more. It was an abusive, toxic, environment. I guess I'd rather interact in a non-dream, non-drug context. Of course dreaming is important to me, but its only a part of the process, and its not the most important part of the process. And I don't mind talking and sharing with people who do drugs. I'm in the same boat as they are, in the sense that thoughts are like drugs. But I'm interested in sharing things as an alternative to that, towards moving beyond that, less like a crack den and more like an AA meeting for crack users.
      Personally I tend to avoid conversations about drugs, as I see them (drugs) more as an impediment to development than a shortcut, so what I say think would not be well received here, I think. A bit cowardly, I know, though I see it more as picking my battles. That said, it is good that you stay in such conversations, as I really believe people here need to hear your perspective...
      Last edited by Sageous; 03-19-2012 at 04:47 PM.

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