Astral Projection vs Ego Death

[Alyzarin]

I admit to knowing very little about the experience of astral projection, but I've been wondering this for some time now. I would prefer if responses were kept to people familiar with both astral projection and ego death through other methods (preferably exogenous), though I suppose anyone can chime in if you have something worthwhile to say. Would you say that astral projection and ego death are similar? Perhaps intrinsically linked? Maybe even the exact same thing only taking different paths to get there? Or are they just separate concepts entirely? Any insight on this would be highly appreciated.

[Solar]

From my experience there are no similarities between them at all. When you astral project there is no reason to question the ego. It holds more similarities with dreaming than anything else.

[Alyzarin]

Alright, thanks for the input. That's pretty much all I needed to know.

[The Cusp]

I've had plenty of OBE like experiences, and I think they are just dreams. If anything, I think it's the ego that's responsible for people insisting that what they experienced was an OBE on some sort of astral plane.

[Alyzarin]

Ah, yeah that lessens my interest in astral projection a bit. I still think it'd be cool to do, but ego death is my main concern at the moment.

[The Cusp]

Don't get me wrong, it being a dream doesn't diminish the significance of the OBE experience in any way. After all, I'm a firm believer in shared dreaming, so the possibilities of going beyond mundane dreams are still there. And separating your dream body from your regular body is very useful for WILDing.

[Sivason]

Alyzarin,Can you explain what you mean by Ego Death. I don't think I am really clear on the concept.

[shadowofwind]

I think astral projection and ego death are closely analogous, and subject to similar fallacies. With astral projection, you're distorting your sense of tactile location in your body. With 'ego death', you're distorting your sense of identity. I think the names are misleading in a similar way. There may or may not be any 'astral' matter - this isn't shown by the typical astral projection experience. And people who claim to have gone through ego death (Franklin Jones as an example) are transparently among the most egotistical people who have lived. I think that with 'ego death' the person still has an ego, but they're imagining themselves as god rather than as a human being. As with astral projection, this shift in perspective can come with a real shift in supernatural powers, but this doesn't mean that the experience is entirely what a person interprets it to be. Sort of by definition, a person who has 'experienced' ego death is a person who was egotistical enough to interpret the experience in that manner. Though I have experienced what appear to me to be similar shifts in perspective, I think that the most honest way for me to self-identify is as a person with an unusual affinity for contortions of imagination, not as a Universal Self with a human avatar. Since astral projection relates to sensate experience more directly than it relates to identity, practicing one experience will not lead directly to the other. However, because of the similarities, I think that a person who becomes able to consciously manipulate one will also tend to be able to produce some kind of results in the other area.

[Alyzarin]

Don't get me wrong, it being a dream doesn't diminish the significance of the OBE experience in any way. After all, I'm a firm believer in shared dreaming, so the possibilities of going beyond mundane dreams are still there. And separating your dream body from your regular body is very useful for WILDing. Oh, I'm sure it's still an amazing experience, it's just not something I really feel the need to devote my time to right now. I have certain interests that seem like they'd be better suited to other techniques is all. Alyzarin,Can you explain what you mean by Ego Death. I don't think I am really clear on the concept. Ego death is when your sense of self is completely obliterated. All your memories, your human instincts, your core personal identity, and even your separation from all of the other matter in existence are all removed and you experience the universe as just one gigantic force that's all connected. At least, that's generally thought of as the most extreme definition. I think astral projection and ego death are closely analogous, and subject to similar fallacies. With astral projection, you're distorting your sense of tactile location in your body. With 'ego death', you're distorting your sense of identity. I think the names are misleading in a similar way. There may or may not be any 'astral' matter - this isn't shown by the typical astral projection experience. And people who claim to have gone through ego death (Franklin Jones as an example) are transparently among the most egotistical people who have lived. I think that with 'ego death' the person still has an ego, but they're imagining themselves as god rather than as a human being. As with astral projection, this shift in perspective can come with a real shift in supernatural powers, but this doesn't mean that the experience is entirely what a person interprets it to be. Sort of by definition, a person who has 'experienced' ego death is a person who was egotistical enough to interpret the experience in that manner. Though I have experienced what appear to me to be similar shifts in perspective, I think that the most honest way for me to self-identify is as a person with an unusual affinity for contortions of imagination, not as a Universal Self with a human avatar. Since astral projection relates to sensate experience more directly than it relates to identity, practicing one experience will not lead directly to the other. However, because of the similarities, I think that a person who becomes able to consciously manipulate one will also tend to be able to produce some kind of results in the other area. I get most of what you're saying, but I think you're confusing some definitions here. Ego death has nothing to do with how big your ego is, which only refers to your level of self-esteem. Nor does experiencing ego death by default make you less egotistical, and you don't have to be egotistical to think of ego death as what it is. As for the actual reality of it, I'm not concerned with that at all. The ego death is 100% real in the sense that you can subjectively experience it as described, a loss of perception of yourself as an individual being. It's that experience I'm interested in, not the facts behind it. But I see your point about how they're similar but different. I guess I'll just put astral projection on the back burner for now.

[Tranquil Toad]

I've had what I might term "ego loosening," but not so complete as to obliterate all memory or identity. You can certainly move beyond yourself and then come back, only to have the old patterns re-assert themselves. So just because someone may appear egotistical does not mean they haven't experienced unity at some point - or that it was some sort of delusion (the idea of it being a delusion is funny once you begin to see it.) I think of it like pouring warm water on ice. Ice is structure - a set pattern - as is the mind. It may take more than one douse of water to loosen that structure up. It could be a lifelong process. If you want to experience ego death, you could always use dreaming or astral projection as a jumping off point. Much of the interference which obscures unity comes from the body/mind system. In dreaming or projections there is much less attachment to your body and mind, as such it can be used to experience deep states which are more difficult to achieve while awake.

[shadowofwind]

Maybe we need another term besides ego 'death', like maybe ego suspension or something, since it doesn't have to be permanent as the word death implies, even though it is likely to permanently alter a person's sense of self. I still see permanent 'loss of perception of oneself as an individual being' as a state of extreme egotism, and I'm pretty sure I'm not confusing my terms. To see what I mean you do have to look for the 'reality of it' or 'the facts behind it' though, without that intent its not shown by the subjective experience. When you lose perception of yourself as an individual being, are you directly experiencing yourself as a 'universal self' or atman, or are you expanding your own personal, individual 'false I' to fill your whole awareness, blotting out awareness of any 'other'? I think its still the 'false I', though I wouldn't denigrate it by calling it false. Whether or not you experience yourself as an individual being, you do remain, in an objective sense, an individual being. I am not you, and you are not me, nothwithstanding that there is something shared also. If you were to become persistently unaware of any distinction between your identity and other identity, you would be choosing to think in a way that's partially inconsistent with what you are. Why would a person choose a permanent state of delusion? People choose it because they regard it as spiritual advancement. If they have gone through 'ego death' they generally regard themselves as more advanced than other people, based on their partially delusional sense of self. That is egotism. If not embraced at the exclusion of a more balanced self awareness, I don't see the 'ego suspension' experience as being a bad thing though. And I agree that astral projection is unlikely to be of much value in that regard. For myself, I sought an expanded sense of self experience, and astral projection experiences came as a side effect. I think the astral projection would happen to everyone though, depending on what else they're thinking about.

[Sivason]

There are no real physical things seperateing us, every thing we see and feel are illusion,,, but you can realize that you do not exist, and still be proud of realizing it. So for someone the say 'I have completed Ego Death' is a bit funny. I think what Shadowofwind said is kind of meant as a joke(as well as a truth). Put it in this joke. /Joke= So, you are humble? 'Yes! Do you doubt me? I am very humble, infact very is to light a word, I am extremily humble! In fact I would be shocked if I am not the most humble person on earth!'

[Alyzarin]

I've had what I might term "ego loosening," but not so complete as to obliterate all memory or identity. You can certainly move beyond yourself and then come back, only to have the old patterns re-assert themselves. So just because someone may appear egotistical does not mean they haven't experienced unity at some point - or that it was some sort of delusion (the idea of it being a delusion is funny once you begin to see it.) I think of it like pouring warm water on ice. Ice is structure - a set pattern - as is the mind. It may take more than one douse of water to loosen that structure up. It could be a lifelong process. If you want to experience ego death, you could always use dreaming or astral projection as a jumping off point. Much of the interference which obscures unity comes from the body/mind system. In dreaming or projections there is much less attachment to your body and mind, as such it can be used to experience deep states which are more difficult to achieve while awake. That is one thing I had in mind, thinking if you could use lucid dream control or astral projection to reach ego death by trying to simulate for example a psychedelic experience. It seems at least plausible to me. Maybe we need another term besides ego 'death', like maybe ego suspension or something, since it doesn't have to be permanent as the word death implies, even though it is likely to permanently alter a person's sense of self. I still see permanent 'loss of perception of oneself as an individual being' as a state of extreme egotism, and I'm pretty sure I'm not confusing my terms. To see what I mean you do have to look for the 'reality of it' or 'the facts behind it' though, without that intent its not shown by the subjective experience. When you lose perception of yourself as an individual being, are you directly experiencing yourself as a 'universal self' or atman, or are you expanding your own personal, individual 'false I' to fill your whole awareness, blotting out awareness of any 'other'? I think its still the 'false I', though I wouldn't denigrate it by calling it false. Whether or not you experience yourself as an individual being, you do remain, in an objective sense, an individual being. I am not you, and you are not me, nothwithstanding that there is something shared also. If you were to become persistently unaware of any distinction between your identity and other identity, you would be choosing to think in a way that's partially inconsistent with what you are. Why would a person choose a permanent state of delusion? People choose it because they regard it as spiritual advancement. If they have gone through 'ego death' they generally regard themselves as more advanced than other people, based on their partially delusional sense of self. That is egotism. If not embraced at the exclusion of a more balanced self awareness, I don't see the 'ego suspension' experience as being a bad thing though. And I agree that astral projection is unlikely to be of much value in that regard. For myself, I sought an expanded sense of self experience, and astral projection experiences came as a side effect. I think the astral projection would happen to everyone though, depending on what else they're thinking about. I personally wasn't thinking of it with any sort of permanence, and if that's how you're looking at it then we're talking about very different things. In my definition a permanent ego death would be equivalent to a permanent catatonic state. And people can believe whatever they want, I honestly don't believe ego death beliefs can be proven in either direction. But like I said, I don't care about that at all. I care about the experience for how it feels, not what it means.

[Tranquil Toad]

When you lose perception of yourself as an individual being, are you directly experiencing yourself as a 'universal self' or atman, or are you expanding your own personal, individual 'false I' to fill your whole awareness, blotting out awareness of any 'other'? I think its still the 'false I', though I wouldn't denigrate it by calling it false. Whether or not you experience yourself as an individual being, you do remain, in an objective sense, an individual being. I am not you, and you are not me, nothwithstanding that there is something shared also. If you were to become persistently unaware of any distinction between your identity and other identity, you would be choosing to think in a way that's partially inconsistent with what you are. Why would a person choose a permanent state of delusion? I can speak from limited experience. The feeling is not of self expansion which blots out others. It is of me and others being both components of something larger. Two fingers on the same hand. I remain as an activity of body and mind; but my body and mind are arising out of something larger, as are your body and mind. I feel and understand that we are expressions of one thing. As me and others interact, the interaction is one. What is shape without space, black without white, on without off? There are differences between us, but these differences are co-dependent on each other. Myself exists as one side of that interaction, but the situation is one. There is no separation. Not sure why I though of this, but sort of like this grid: I would just be one of the points where the lines intersect. I feel my existence only in reference to everything else. I care about the experience for how it feels, not what it means. I'd say you're on the right track.

[shadowofwind]

The grid analogy works for me. One of my first notable dream experiences was of something like that grid. My vision sort of resembled a grid-like tangle of dna strands that can't be embedded in 3-space, but I think it alludes to the same thing. I was very happy after that dream. I should have paid more attention to the 'obliterate all memory' aspect of 'ego death', since that's clearly different from what I've been talking about. My dreams are often lucid without any sights or sounds, but there's always a kind of imagination going on. If a person were to have a totally void experience, I don't see how they would even remember it. I think that at some level we have that kind of experience all the time, and don't know how to relate it to any of our other experience. But I agree its possible to have that kind of experience more consciously. At least half of how I 'think' is with feeling. I think its often worth desiring for something to be felt truly though, even if a person isn't trying to interpret it in terms logical interrelationships with other thoughts. Obviously all of us have limited understanding in relation to identity, ego, and oblivion. So I think it would be foolish to presume what other people can definitely know or demonstrate about it. By way of analogy, I understand why there are 12 notes in an octive, and 5 in the eastern system, and not 8 or 13 or 15, and I can 'prove it' to anyone who wants to understand it. Of course I can't prove it to someone who doesn't care, but that's not the same as not provable. Ego death is a harder topic, but that doesn't mean that no definite understanding is possible or demonstrable. I agree that there are probably things about it that can't be 'known' even in principle however.

[Alyzarin]

That does sound like a pretty awesome dream. The ego death experience can definitely be hard to remember, at least in great detail. So much of it is just ineffable. Though, at least in the ego death produced by things like psychedelic drugs, it's not totally 'void'. There is still something going on, it's just... extremely hard to fathom. The experience is bizarre enough in itself at that level of trip, but since there's no more you you just become the experience. I am starting to think now that maybe I should still go for astral projection and try meditating during it to achieve ego death. I suppose it'd be at least worth looking into....

[shadowofwind]

life.jpg That's a crude sketch of my dream, though its not the same as what I saw in the dream. Probably need to click on it to see it adequately. Note the similarity to tranquil toad's grid. My experiences such as astral projection or this dream are all created by a 'muse' that's sort of like my subconscious but extends beyond that. If I were pursuing your 'void' experience, my approach would probably be to ask and then to wait. I'd typically get a response the first night, or it might take longer if there were other things that needed to happen first. For me, becoming more aware of my capacity to feel, and my ability to move my standpoint of identity around, helps make these kinds of things possible.

[Sageous]

Okay, I'm trying to follow this, but I'm confused. If your ego is dead, then there is no "You" to appreciate this void, or anything at all. Since you are literally absent from an "ego death" experience, how is it possible to remember it ever happened? Forget that; if there is no "You" present, how can you possibly appreciate this void, or unity with the cosmos, or whatever? You're not there, right? Or, if you are, you are effectively a zombie, incapable of absorbing the event, since you've killed the machinery meant to do the absorbing. And, if AP is the same, then I ask the same question: if "You" don't go with your spirit when you AP, what's the point of AP'ing? Sorry. It seems to me that the whole point of LD'ing, AP'ing, and OBE's is to expose your self to new experiences beyond the realm of physical influence. Indeed, the only thing you take with you in any of these journeys is the "self," or "You," since your body is sleeping on its own somewhere while you explore. To kill the major source of "self" seems counter-intuitive to me. What am I missing? Oh, and if you find yourself repeating what you've already said feel free to call me an idiot and tell me to re-read the thread; I humbly will.

[Alyzarin]

Well, it seems like my answer was that AP is not the same thing as ego death, so that answers that. And depending on your views of ego death the answer to the first part could be different, but this is my belief (and so the one I think makes the most sense ). It's not that you aren't there to experience it, it's just that your mind has lost the ability to perceive you as an individual. It's still only happening to your mind, you've just lost the part of your conscious programming that allows you to understand individuality. Plus, in that way, ego death is still exposing yourself to new experiences, even if you don't perceive yourself as being there. And it's pretty amazing, I've still yet to find lucid dreams more amazing than ego death, though certainly quite interesting.

[Tranquil Toad]

I don't see a problem with there being no me there. I am just a train of thoughts attached to a body which occurs on top of raw awareness. Awareness could move away from my thoughts and body, yet be more powerful and vivid than when it was viewing me. Awareness is the constant, underlying everything. My ego is just a pattern which awareness perceives. Why is that pattern so important? I am just a series of thoughts and perspectives describing existence. Not such a big a deal if those subside for a while.

[Original Poster]

In my experience, "ego death" is one of the most incredible feelings one can experience.

[shadowofwind]

I think we all agree that astral projection is not ego death, even though I maintain that there's a kindred paradox in the two experiences. Here's an example of a third experience which is like that also, even though its obviously very different from the other two. Generally speaking, Christians don't question the idea that they're 'forgiven' or try to logically reconcile it with all other aspects of their experience. They just believe it, and the resulting uplift and transformation they experience validates the belief. My view is that they're not in a practical sense forgiven, that undesirable results still flow from their sins, pretty much just as for non-Christians. Furthermore I think that if they don't try to square their belief with other aspects of experience, then their sense of being uplifted and transformed may be delusional also. They may be caught in a positive feedback where their answer to suffering is actually where a lot of the suffering comes from to start with, but they can't see it because the connections aren't included in their idea framework. At the same time, I don't deny that its uplifting and transformative in a real way also. Likewise for other related beliefs discussed recently in other threads, such as 'God is Love'. Somehow that's true and not true. Believing its true is absolutely essential, and yet acknowledging practical conditions is essential also, even though we can't yet bridge the two. Similarly, the astral body is real and not real. When you astral project you're still in your physical body, projecting your mental sense of feeling in your nerves. And at the same time, you're somehow out of your body, in your 'astral' framework, which as a thought is a sort of body. And at the same time, you are in no particular place at all. Similarly with 'ego death'. In the experience you are no longer an individual with sensate experiences and memory, and yet, you still retain some ability to retain that experience. I think the 'loss of memory' aspect of the experience is mostly distinct from the 'loss of individual identity' aspect of it, which is why I was confused about what we were talking about it. I've had both of those kinds of experiences, but not together. I tentatively disagree with the idea that awareness remains without the body, even though this is a tenant of various eastern teachings. I think its still dependent on the body, and on a type of perception that is akin to the perception of 'the ego', even though it flies under a different banner. At the same time, spirits seem to exist that have awareness but no bodies, and i wonder how that works. I speculate that they depend on us and our bodies, that their thoughts are built out of our thoughts. And maybe they also have some kind of exotic matter that we don't know about. As further examples of what I mean here....Many traditions say that the 'soul' has impressions on it, such as from past lives, yet that it is not physical, or that it is composed of a single indivisible unit. Yet there is nothing in our experience that can receive impressions and which is not made of a large number of smaller units stuck together. And an 'impression' is a memory, which in my mind is synonymous with matter. Atoms and whatnot are essentially light turned in a self-reinforcing way which amounts to a type of memory. Yet in Christian Science, as an example, we are told that 'matter is error', that everything having to do with matter is wrong. I don't see how that makes any sense. Most of the characteristics that people ascribe to 'spirits' seem to me to almost by definition be properties of matter. Tentatively, I think there's an inescapable unity to the dualism. I think that consciousness depends on the body, and that the body depends on consciousness, and that everything definite and manifest depends on the indefinite and unmanifest for life, and vice versa. The dual way of thinking about it may or may not be fundamental (I think it is partially fundamental) but I think the unity is fundamental.

[Sivason]

[QUOTE=shadowofwind;1829313] At the same time, spirits seem to exist that have awareness but no bodies, and i wonder how that works. I speculate that they depend on us and our bodies, that their thoughts are built out of our thoughts. And maybe they also have some kind of exotic matter that we don't know about. QUOTE] Boy, I have really wondered about that. I know that these beings have some kind of awareness, and can communicate with my brain somehow, yet all of my understanding shows I need a brain to be aware. I have past life memories, but where the heck were they stored in between bodies? They have no color and are in 2 dimensions, very unlike other memories. Now that I think I understand what everybody is talking about, I have had similar experiences, floating in a void with little awarness and no body, while astrally projecting. But there was still some kind of awareness and mental process. I did not know who or what I was, but I remember it. I have no real answer to share. Very deep confusing stuff.

[Sivason]

Can someone fill me in on how to quote someone? That didn't turn out right... Hmmm, feel pretty dumb now

[Alyzarin]

You just haven't closed it properly, at the end there should be a "[/QUOTE]".