Thread: lucid dream or other world?

Maybe he's just trying to catch up with everything you all have written. I left for only a few hours and had some posts I needed to take in. Or perhaps he is trying to formulate the words in order to better convey his meaning, in either case I hope he returns as well.

Don't take it personally zoth, but yes, many religious people are VERY close minded. Fortunately there are open minded ones as well. The same goes for skeptics. Maybe you will be the one to change my viewpoint on them?

@Darkmatters
So since you don't believe there is any "physical" world containing the Dreams, how then do the spirits interact? Where do they reside when he isn't Dreaming? I see what you mean about different experiences, but I feel the memory aspect of it falls into a slightly different category. In the waking world, when people remember something differently it isn't because they experienced something different, but simply because memory is unreliable much of the time when it comes to small details. That seems a bit different than what you propose for shared Dreaming. You propose that the actual experience itself, while shared by two or more people, is presenting itself differently to each, not that they remember it differently. May just be splitting hairs here, but do you see what I'm getting at?

Also, maybe we can help this guy in his endeavor. After all, how many of you have done something similar to this and investigated the Dreamscape to attain a better understanding of its nature? I would love to hear any and all theories as to what it is we are dealing with. I don't mean investigate your Dreams to better understand yourself, but to explore the nature of the Dreamworld and ponder from within what its purpose is. How can this be done in a way that would minimize the amount of self interference?

Originally Posted by zoth00

One cannot conceive non-physical entities. Why? First of all, how could we even affirm they exist?

What does affirmation have to do with existence? If non-physical entities exist we would not be able to prove it, but that would not stop them from existing. Why would we need to be able to affirm their existence before we can conceive of them? I have an imagination, therefore I can conceive of many things that haven't been proven, including the possibility that non-physical entities might exist. I'm not saying they definitely do, and I'm not trying to convince anybody else they do either, I'm just saying why can't we have a conversation about them AS IF THEY DO EXIST - without needing to first prove that they do?

Originally Posted by zoth00

When we refer to worlds, we know they are physical, because they possess physical attributes, and we can perceive them.

Wait - why do worlds have to be physical? In particular, why would a world of spirits be physical? Does World mean the same thing to you as Planet?

Originally Posted by zoth00

It's how you discover stuff: you say "impossible" until you find a possible way.

No, not quite right. Because if you believe it's impossible, why would you even search for a possible way? Maybe what you meant to say is "Not proven possible until you find a possible way"? But of course something doesn't have to be proven possible in order to be real. Were lucid deams not real until they were proven in the sleep lab? Was the earth flat until it was proven not to be? Of course not. And obviously the scientists who finally did prove these things didn't believe they were impossible even when there was no proof yet. They thought it was possible and set out to find that proof.

You said earlier that you believe in other worlds - can you explain what kind of other worlds?

Originally Posted by PlanesWalker

@Darkmatters
So since you don't believe there is any "physical" world containing the Dreams, how then do the spirits interact? Where do they reside when he isn't Dreaming?

First let's be clear - I didn't say I either believe or disbelieve in spirits or non-physical worlds. I simply asked - if the spirits aren't physical, why would they need a physical environment? Wouldn't it make more sense for non-physical spirits to exist in something more akin to a dream environment? Or maybe no environment at all, similar to when we dream of having no body and existing simply in a black empty void or a white light. I mean, if we're talking about spirits that a dreamer can interact with, then it's a given that they can somehow inhabit a dreamscape or at least show up in something that the dreamer percieves as a dreamscape.

But why should I have to provide feasible mechanisms for what these spirits are or how they interact? If such spirits do exist how would I or anyone else know anything about them, other than maybe people who can communicate with them like the OP?

If the theory of shared dreams being telepathy is right, then the 'bodies' of these spirits that show up in the dreams would be simply something the dreamer's mind created to represent them. Same for the environment. Telepathy (if it exists) is thoughts that enter your mind. I neither believe nor disbelieve in telepathy (just to get that straight), but at present I'm thinking a lot about it and how it might work. And it seems to me that if you recieve thoughts from an external source while you're dreaming (could be from the mind of another dreamer, a waking sender, or maybe a spirit) then your mind is goint to interpret those thoughts in dream form and build bodies and environments around them. Isn't that what it does when you hear sounds from the 'real' world while you're dreaming? You might hear somebody talking near you and weave it into the dream. Or you might feel something - your cat jump on your chest maybe, or a sudden sharp pain or something, and that shows up in some distorted way in your dream. Why would it be any different for thoughts or feelings entering your mind from a different source?

Originally Posted by PlanesWalker

I see what you mean about different experiences, but I feel the memory aspect of it falls into a slightly different category. In the waking world, when people remember something differently it isn't because they experienced something different, but simply because memory is unreliable much of the time when it comes to small details. That seems a bit different than what you propose for shared Dreaming. You propose that the actual experience itself, while shared by two or more people, is presenting itself differently to each, not that they remember it differently. May just be splitting hairs here, but do you see what I'm getting at?

It's not just memories that are different - no 2 people experience things in exactly the same way. For various reasons - perspective for one. Different people see things from different places and some can see more than others. Also because of differing amounts of knowledge or different backgrounds causing people to interpret things in very different ways. For instance, imagine how differently several people might have experienced 9-11 - one of the terrorist pilots, a passenger on the plane, a person inside one of the towers as it's struck by a plane, and a person on the street seeing it happen. To the person on the street a plane just flew into a building out of the clear blue. To the person inside the tower there's no telling what the hell just happened - could be an earthquake or explosion of some kind, or armageddon itself... who knows? Many people died never knowing what the hell had happened.

And like I said before - this was an event that took place in waking life, in the physical world. Now imagine a telepathic connection shared briefly between 2 people who are both dreaming. Of course I don't know how telepathy works (if it does), but it seems like it would be rather dreamlike - a burst of image, thought and feeling. Probably not crystal clear and definite, but rather something a little vague, the way subconscious thoughts are. It expresses itslef not in words but in images and feelings and symbols. So it seems like each dreamer would show up in some form in the other's dream, but each would see the other and the environment according to their own schema, formed from their own thoughts memories feelings and expectations.

I never said the other worlds, dimensions, places, etc I visit are physical however that does not mean they are not real. If are just memories and imagination well then my friends we are all the most brilliant beings that have ever lived. We are each gods with the ability to construct worlds with vast oceans, montains, cities, buildings, technology and best of all life. We create people and animals, emotions in others, clothes, food, etc.
Im not artistic yet Ive seen the most brilliant colors and beautiful artwork while lucid. To create this whole living is impossible to do on the fly and graphically unless we are each gods...or we travel to another place where we are not bound by 3D or physical constraints and anything we can dream is possible. Maybe hell is real and it is 3D earth. My point is still I do not know what that other place is and by not asking and by not experimenting it will always just be a dream. Oh and I have not been getting emails when posts are made which is why I have not responded. Can someone please fix that

Has anyone asked of others the 3 questions while lucid and of clear mind? I'd like to know your findings. We are all lucky in that very few people have lucid dreams and even fewer can control them. Maybe together we can experiment and research more effectively.

I have not asked the three questions. But, we can make these worlds for sure, and go back to them. So their existence, though it may depend solely on us, is real, it just might be real only in our heads. Bit just because others don't see it doesn't mean it matters less.

I might ask them soon if I think of them. To be honest my mind just gives me random objectives in dreams. Normally it is something that I heard randomly once and my mind decided it is a good task. I am working right now on doing exactly what I want in every LD. Even if I could remember my goal every other LD I would be happy. I want to be good at every aspect of LDing.

**Moved to Beyond Dreaming**

Looks like you got a healthy response on your question. Good to see people interested.

Originally Posted by longtimelucid

Oh and I have not been getting emails when posts are made which is why I have not responded. Can someone please fix that

You can solve this by scrolling up to the top of the page and clicking on Control Panel. There you will see all your setting info and a box on the left side that allows you to change your settings (see picture below). Click on General Settings. Scroll down a very small bit to Messaging & Notification section. You should see a line of text which says, "Default Thread Subscription Mode" which you can choose to set for e-mail notifications or through yuor Control Panel Only.





If you choose through your Control Panel Only you can click on the What's New menu at the top of the page and see your Subscribed Threads. Saves your e-mail inbox from filling up.


Let staff know if you have any issues or questions. We're here to help.

Nice! Thanks Melanie

Very late, possibly too late, to this interesting thread, but a couple of thoughts anyway:

Originally Posted by longtimelucid

...I have yet to read about someone who can take it to a level I have however I have yet to reach the end of the internet

I think you have yet even to reach the end of this forum, Longtimelucid! The accomplishments you list are fairly common here, and honestly don't come close to the transcendental things advanced dreamers have done.

Indeed, asking the same three questions over and over, and always getting the same response speaks to me of stagnation, not advancement. Why not collect your skills, forget about proving this other world, and set about exploring, or perhaps leaving it? I think if you take yourself beyond the dreamscape you've created (or, as it were, created for you), your new perspective might provide you with proof of its reality.


I think it would be great if you could answer these questions from Darkmatters, which seem to have been brushed aside by the greater conversation:

.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

This is fascinating - I have a few questions:

1) So, have you determined that every lucid dream takes you to the same world, or each one to a different world? What does it mean that these worlds are populated by your family and friends and celebrities?

2) What are DILDs, which start as normal dreams and suddenly you become lucid? This must mean that every non-lucid dream also takes place in these other worlds, right?

3) What happens when you begin a dream there - do you suddenly appear out of nowhere? And disappear when you wake up or the dream ends? Do the other people notice you appearing and disappearing, and what do they think of that - have you ever asked them?

4) Does it seem normal to you for people not to know where they live or what the date is?

Next:

Originally Posted by longtimelucid

…If [dreams]are just memories and imagination well then my friends we are all the most brilliant beings that have ever lived. We are each gods with the ability to construct worlds with vast oceans, mountains, cities, buildings, technology and best of all life. We create people and animals, emotions in others, clothes, food, etc.
I’m not artistic yet I’ve seen the most brilliant colors and beautiful artwork while lucid. To create this whole living is impossible to do on the fly and graphically unless we are each gods...

Yes indeed, in our dreams we are truly gods, creators of entire universes, mountains, people, technology, all senses, and so much more if we really try. It’s a shame that over all these years of apparently advanced LD’ing you have failed to realize the power of your dreaming mind -- perhaps if you spent less time believing purely in this other world and repeating the same questions, and spent more time learning to explore, manipulate, and escape your dreaming worlds, you’d have either come to understand that your dreaming universe is all your own, or else laid tracks across a glorious multiverse of collective consciousness-based reality.

If you had truly advanced to the lofty levels to which you claim (higher than anyone else here, which is a very impressive claim from my perspective), I seriously believe that you would by now have no need to ask those questions, would have long since proven to yourself the true nature of your dream world, and would have created/explored so many new worlds and manners of existence that this “real” world of yours would have been a distant memory.

I highly recommend, Longtimelucid, that you find some humility and consider for a moment that you might have wasted a whole lot of time asking these three questions, over and over and over, and think about moving on.


Zoth, Planeswalker, Darkmatters, BarandonBoss, Dutchraptor:

Great chat guys! I’m sorry I missed it; you discussed so many things about which I like to make noise...

Originally Posted by longtimelucid

Hello all Ive been lucid dreaming for over 30 years and Im almost convinced that our minds or souls are transported to another world when lucid dreaming. Based on the realism including sight, taste, touch, smell and real coversations with people Ive never met. Also based on questions I ask others in my lucid dreams. Your thoughts on the possibility that they are not dreams but real?

Well, I've been Lucid Dreaming for over 35 years and have total Dream Control for about 25 years now. I've lately gotten bored with it so I have tried to move to another level and connect to another person in my dreams. I have had no success that I can show proof.

But on the other hand I've seen things that have come true later on. That has made me pay more attention. So for right now, I think dreams are in your own mind. But at the same time we are getting some sort of influence from outside of our minds during a dream. I just won't consider it another world. This is my opinion until I can prove it to myself otherwise.

Originally Posted by longtimelucid

Hello all Ive been lucid dreaming for over 30 years and Im almost convinced that our minds or souls are transported to another world when lucid dreaming. Based on the realism including sight, taste, touch, smell and real coversations with people Ive never met. Also based on questions I ask others in my lucid dreams. Your thoughts on the possibility that they are not dreams but real?

a lot of this has to do with your own personal beliefs regarding NDE's and similar topics. you have to decide for yourself as there is no real proof either way.

Are you 100% sure your lucid dreams are just dreams?
If so then you should continue playing in your dreams and being the master of your domain...your choice.
I'm not wasting my time asking 3 questions but I did have fun just creating my own dreamscape, doing what every I want, etc.
I've moved beyond that. I'm now in search of something else and to your point I may never find it...it may all just be a dream or eventually I may find what it reallly is...my choice and no need for you follow.
My intent is not to stop anyone from exploring LD and having fun with it since that is how you learn.
My intent is to find out what LD really is or what it can be used for. Can it be used to communicate with the dead, with other humans, with undiscovered life forms? I do not know as there are so many unanswered questions. And to not ask the questions you are closing the door on what it can be and used for and what it may be. Again your choice.
To answer some questions:
1) So, have you determined that every lucid dream takes you to the same world, or each one to a different world? What does it mean that these worlds are populated by your family and friends and celebrities? Answer:Sometimes the same place sometimes different. My family and friends are never in my lucid dreams except for my brother who passed.

2) What are DILDs, which start as normal dreams and suddenly you become lucid? This must mean that every non-lucid dream also takes place in these other worlds, right? Answer: I dont have an answer to that.

3) What happens when you begin a dream there - do you suddenly appear out of nowhere? And disappear when you wake up or the dream ends? Do the other people notice you appearing and disappearing, and what do they think of that - have you ever asked them? Answer: I dont know if I appear out of nowhere as I do not see myself enter the LD. Maybe I'm seeing through some else's eyes. Maybe the other people are dreaming as well however I'm the only one LD which is why I can control the dream and they can't. To them it is a simple dream or nightmare which they believe is 3D and to the person having the LD it is dreamscape.

4) Does it seem normal to you for people not to know where they live or what the date is? Answer: Yes I find it very strange that everyone always knows their name however nobody knows of the place or time.

Originally Posted by longtimelucid

Are you 100% sure your lucid dreams are just dreams?
If so then you should continue playing in your dreams and being the master of your domain...your choice.
I'm not wasting my time asking 3 questions but I did have fun just creating my own dreamscape, doing what every I want, etc.
I've moved beyond that. I'm now in search of something else and to your point I may never find it...

4) Does it seem normal to you for people not to know where they live or what the date is? Answer: Yes I find it very strange that everyone always knows their name however nobody knows of the place or time.

It is good you want to expand. But try to use some basic logic. People will only know things in your dream that you yourself know. Because you created them. You said many times you don't know where you are so how would they know? They are just another extension of your own conciseness for the most part.

I myself can create any world I want and see anyone I want. Living or dead and I do it every night including family and friends. Change them or myself to whatever I want. Since you can't; this shows me your degree of control is not as good as you have brought yourself to believe. This is what I know. I think you should go about it in a different way and try to improve your control to be able to do anything, be anything and see anybody anytime at one thought from yourself. Good Luck.

It is very interesting that science does not have the tools today to comprehend dreams, to really understand, capture, diagnose, and monitor them let alone know 100% for certain what they really are. And yet many on this site seem to have it all figured out and the brain is responsible for everything.
Did you ever think that your brain may just be a receptor/transmitter and possible gateway into non-physical worlds accessible via LD?
When I ask the questions I ask of a clear mind because I know how to manipulate the answers, and I do know that I'm in a lucid dream and I do know the date when I ask the questions. To clarify I can control any and every aspect of my LD and make anyone appear in my LD (family, friends, famous people, etc). I choose not to for that leads to self manifested dreams. Instead I enter my LD state with a clear mind and let things happen. In this state I never see anyone I've seen in the physical world. If we didnt question, didnt explore then the earth would still be the flat center of the universe.
I believe the world is round, well maybe oval , and there is so much to be discovered beyond what we were taught to believe.

longtimelucid,

I do what I call "Free Dreaming" most of the time now. I got bored over the years with total control. I see my wife, friends, family in those dreams as well. I wondered if I was connecting to them in a dream or just my minds representation of them. So one time I was dreaming of being with my wife in Hawaii in a "Free Dream". I thought this would be a great importunity to find out.

I can force myself awake from a dream at anytime. So I did. I immediately woke my wife up and asked if she was dreaming. She said yes. I asked her to describe the dream. She said she was dreaming back in elementary school. It was a totally different dream. I got my answer at least for that dream.

When I was performing total "Dream Control" or "Free Dreaming" at least at that time she wasn't real. She was only a representation of her in my mind. I hope this helps.

longtimelucid:

Okay. I know my tone invited much of your response, but, still, you seem to have read many things which were not in my post. So:

Originally Posted by longtimelucid

Are you 100% sure your lucid dreams are just dreams?

I never said I was; indeed, I never said anything about dreams just being dreams -- not sure where you got that from.

If so then you should continue playing in your dreams and being the master of your domain...your choice.

That was fairly uncalled for, I think -- please note that I've been "playing" in my dreams for about four decades now, and to date haven't cared much about being "master of my domain." Please don't decide for me what I do in my dreams, when I never said a word about it.

I'm not wasting my time asking 3 questions but I did have fun just creating my own dreamscape, doing what every I want, etc. I've moved beyond that. I'm now in search of something else and to your point I may never find it...it may all just be a dream or eventually I may find what it really is...my choice and no need for you follow.

That's all good, and something I believe you failed to share earlier; thanks for clarifying. And don't worry, I wasn't planning on following anyone -- no idea where you got that either.

My intent is not to stop anyone from exploring LD and having fun with it since that is how you learn.

I never said it was -- did you even read my post?

My intent is to find out what LD really is or what it can be used for. Can it be used to communicate with the dead, with other humans, with undiscovered life forms? I do not know as there are so many unanswered questions. And to not ask the questions you are closing the door on what it can be and used for and what it may be. Again your choice.

Thanks again for the clarification... again, had you included all that in your original bona fides, I likely would never have posted. Again, what is this nonsense about my "choice?" Was I ever talking about choices, or following you? Was your post directed at someone else, perhaps on another thread?

To answer some questions:
1) So, have you determined that every lucid dream takes you to the same world, or each one to a different world? What does it mean that these worlds are populated by your family and friends and celebrities? Answer:Sometimes the same place sometimes different. My family and friends are never in my lucid dreams except for my brother who passed.

2) What are DILDs, which start as normal dreams and suddenly you become lucid? This must mean that every non-lucid dream also takes place in these other worlds, right? Answer: I dont have an answer to that.

3) What happens when you begin a dream there - do you suddenly appear out of nowhere? And disappear when you wake up or the dream ends? Do the other people notice you appearing and disappearing, and what do they think of that - have you ever asked them? Answer: I dont know if I appear out of nowhere as I do not see myself enter the LD. Maybe I'm seeing through some else's eyes. Maybe the other people are dreaming as well however I'm the only one LD which is why I can control the dream and they can't. To them it is a simple dream or nightmare which they believe is 3D and to the person having the LD it is dreamscape.

4) Does it seem normal to you for people not to know where they live or what the date is? Answer: Yes I find it very strange that everyone always knows their name however nobody knows of the place or time.

Thank you. I'll leave it to Darkmatters to respond, if he cares.

Sorry if I riled you, longtimelucid. I guess I was a bit riled myself. I've been practicing and developing this discipline for so long, and have done so much (with so much left to do), that I get a bit annoyed when I'm talked down to by a self-proclaimed superior who lists as his skills stuff I got tired of doing back in the '80's. I'm glad you offered some further explanations. Still, it would have been nice if you had actually read my post rather than simply glanced and assumed. That can lead to much confusion.

'Nuff said, I think; sorry to trouble you. I'll try not to do it again.

@Eric
You might be really interested in wakingnomad and ravenKnight. They have lots of shared dream experience. I know nomad thinks that you should imagine opening a dimension between the dreams and either going in their dream and pulling them into yours. Something you might want to look into.

I have a lot I wish to say about both your dream control, but I have to eat dinner.

My friend, maybe she just did not remember that dream. Or maybe what you experienced was not a dream.

Sageous, my response was not to anyone specific but more so just putting more info out.

^^ Okay, Longtimelucid; if you say so. Thanks for clarifying.

Originally Posted by longtimelucid

It is very interesting that science does not have the tools today to comprehend dreams, to really understand, capture, diagnose, and monitor them let alone know 100% for certain what they really are. And yet many on this site seem to have it all figured out and the brain is responsible for everything.
Did you ever think that your brain may just be a receptor/transmitter and possible gateway into non-physical worlds accessible via LD?

I really do think that you have, for the most part, no idea what you're talking about. Sleep and dream research is a relatively new science, and most of the reasons for it are due the lack of tools for the study of sleep, and the mysticism that surrounded dreams for many centuries. You, on the other hand, present investigation methods that may be easily falsifiable, and still claim they are valid. You think scientists don't have curiosity? You think you can really say "science" and pretend you're not a part of it? I doubt anyone here hasn't been a scientist in a certain aspect of their lives in the past week or even day. The difference between the "science people", and people like you, is that we're able to judge ideas critically and with the proper sense of reason and logic. Of course our brain could be a gateway into non-physical worlds acessible via LD? But the real question is: why the hell would you give credit to a proposition that has flaws in every 3 words?

Define how a non-physical world could interact with a physical thing?
Define how you could say that the non-physical thing existed, or possessed the attributes you claimed it did?
Define why would a physical process like a dream would generate a non-physical process?
And most importantly: what is something non-physical? If someone can conceive the concept of "non-physical" I'd love to hear about it (would make for an amazing discussion in another topic perhaps )

All good questions that show the flaws on your way of thinking and lay your "theory" down to land. If you're saying things just because you think they sound cool, then by all means go ahead, but don't say you're open-minded because the ability to accept things uncritically is certainly not a sign of it. And don't come out and bash science for not having answers when all your doing is stating your belief based on faith, not reason or logic, and then state that "many on this site seem to have it all figured it out". We don't, we just can see through your lack of logic and coherence without even stating our own opinion. I find it completely hilarious that you are attacking "science" people for being "smartasses" when you're not even willing to admit the possibility of you changing your belief, like you stated on your 5th post in this thread.

Originally Posted by BrandonBoss

@Eric
You might be really interested in wakingnomad and ravenKnight. They have lots of shared dream experience. I know nomad thinks that you should imagine opening a dimension between the dreams and either going in their dream and pulling them into yours. Something you might want to look into.

I have a lot I wish to say about both your dream control, but I have to eat dinner.

Thanks for pointing me to both of them. I've sent them both PM's and hope they respond back soon. If you have any questions for me I'm glad to share what I've learned on my own over the years.

I've been reading a lot of posts on here. I guess Total Control doesn't come as easy to most of the others. But then again it took about 10 years of practicing every night to reach it. So I guess it didn't come easy to me or it wouldn't have taken me so long. But I hope I can pass information on to others to speed up their progress. I can't really talk to anyone else about this in real life besides my wife.

Zoth00, correct I do not know what Im talking about when it comes to LD. Neither do you, scientists or others on this site know 100% what LDs are since nobody has the proper tools to research them. But my mind is open to the many possibilities of what LDs could be. Too often do we associate the physical world to dream world because we think we know what physical world is as we are comfortable with it. Are LDs really a type of dream or do we just associate LDs with dreams so we can categorize them with something we are familiar with. A sheep herder who has never seen another animal would call a deer a brown sheep. So I ask you..are you sure LDs are just a type of dream?