Thread: Differences between LDs, OBE and Astral Projetion.

These are all simply words, and different people attach different meanings to them. For what it's worth my usage of these terms are as follows:

OBE: out-of-body excursion. A relocation of consciousness into the "etheric plane" (sometimes called the "real-time zone"). This is (allegedly) where near-death experiences take place, and it resembles the physical reality to a very high degree. The environment is not produced by the brain (not even a little bit).

LD: lucid dream. A relocation of consciousness into "dreamland" or whatever we should call it. The environment is entirely, or dominantly, produced by the brain.

AP: astral projection. A relocation of consciousness into the "astral plane". This environment is not produced by the brain (but heavily influenced by consciousness). It is vastly different from physical reality.

The question of whether there is more to our universe than the ordinary physical reality, is debated fiercely. Consensus is not likely. Ever. Subsequently, there is no consensus on whether consciousness can move around (or, indeed, whether it exists at all). Try to make a bold statement in this area, and you will find it's akin to sticking your hand into a hornets nest.

I have always thought it was Out of Body Experience rather than excursion. Though I guess it doesn't really matter that much.

Also, and anyone who can please correct me if I'm wrong here. I believe LD is the only term out of those 3 to be scientifically proven. The others are neither proven nor disproven as of now. And although all 3 of them are being discussed a lot, I feel like the scientific world is not so eager to experiment on these things. (perhaps because they still don't know enough about the human brain?)

I just thought this was worth mentioning.

I do believe in Astral Projection and have experienced it myself.

It is much more real than waking life itself and it can provide very profound and spiritual experiences.

OR: Occam's Razor.

Lucid dreaming unmistakably exists. As for the other two, I have serious doubts. I've had plenty of LDs that fit the "OBE" or "AP" profile, but have never come back with any knowledge or experience that could confirm that they were anything other than waypoints on the broad and varied spectrum of dreaming. Dreaming operates across a very broad continuum, after all!

If OBEs or AP are something other than dreaming, this would seem to be easy to confirm through experimentation. All someone would have to do is return with information that they could not possibly have previously known, even subconsciously. Until such experiments provide concrete evidence that OBE and AP exist as independent states distinct from a variety of dreaming, I see no reason to give them credence.

Originally Posted by matthias

Guys, I just wanna know the differences between LDs and OBE. Are LDs just the imaginations within our head??? Is OBE the actual leaving from the body?? In OBE, are we in the real physical world?? Please someone explain for me.....

Good question matthias, and not one that has a very straightforward answer.

I first learned how to leave my body almost 15 years ago. My first experiences out of body were similar to what Voldmer classified as an OBE/Out of body experience, the projection of consciousness into a dimension of reality that is essentially a nonphysical energetic reflection of the physical world (called the "etheric plane" or "real-time zone" by some). This is the dimension closest to the physical dimension, just outside of it's frequency or rate of vibration.

Over the years, as I gained more and more experience out of body, developed my energy body via energy work practices and meditation, and increased overall spiritual development, I began to access higher nonphysical realms, called "Astral Planes" and "Mental Planes" by those who follow eastern philosophies. These are spiritual dimensions of reality farther removed from the physical dimension. I began having deeply transcendental experiences, including experiencing states of union with God consciousness, my Higher Self, encounters with various nonphysical entities, heavenly realms, and experiences that are not describable with our language.

There is essentially no difference between an OBE and an Astral Projection other than the dimension that one's consciousness is projected into. The "etheric plane" or "real-time zone" that Voldmer noted is considered by some to be the first level of the Astral Planes, and considered by others to be an "in-between" dimension, between the physical and astral dimensions. Both experiences require the projection of one's consciousness into the subtle energy body, which actually has multiple "layers" which correspond with the various dimensions in the spectrum of our immediate nonphysical reality system. Thus, the experience of a lower dimension of the astral planes is experienced in a lower-vibratory energy body, whereas the experience of a higher dimension is experienced within a higher energy body corresponding with the frequency of that particular dimension.

I should add that there is no real separation of consciousness from these different energy bodies. They are all produced by one's own consciousness, it is simply a matter of where one's focal point is. While awake these energy bodies are one with our physical body, but upon sleep these energy bodies shift into their appropriate dimensions, all the way up the dimensional spectrum to the highest possible dimension, apparently connecting with the higher source of energy which sustains our consciousness and our physical bodies, kinda like a spiritual recharge.

With the development of my out of body abilities, I began to experience lucid dreams as a natural byproduct of the development of my consciousness in altered states and higher nonphysical realities. I would often convert my lucid dreams into OBEs, which essentially involved placing the intent to have an OBE during a lucid dream, which would shift my consciousness back into my etheric energy body, which would then shift out into the astral planes. I held my OBEs with higher value than my lucid dreams because they seemed to be grounded in more objective levels of reality, rather than produced entirely by my mind, as I believed was the case with lucid dreams.

However, after much experience with both types of experiences, both out of body and lucid dreams, I began to realize that there was essentially little difference between them. They are both conscious explorations of nonphysical dimensions. The main difference was what areas of consciousness and what dimensions of reality are being experienced. It seems that lucid dreams are experienced in the same nonphysical system of reality as OBEs/APs, although they seem to take place in realms that are highly receptive to the subconscious mind, reflecting the subconscious' contents into an externally perceptible reality. In contrast, OBEs/APs are experiences of nonphysical dimensions that contain environments that are constructs of the larger system itself, although the subconscious mind is still fairly influential regarding one's perceptions, especially if one is not exceptionally lucid and attentive. Thus, one has powers of manifestation similar to those in LDs, although the external environment is usually not a subconscious creation. It is rather easy for an OBE to shift into a dream environment, just as is the case with LDs, if one's lucidity slips away.

I have also had many OBEs from the dream state, with essentially no difference in the experience of separation (there are usually very telltale symptoms of energy body separation, especially strong vibrations and sensations of expansion, although these diminish with experience and development of the energy body). I have discovered that the dimensions that are experienced in normal OBEs directly from the waking state are the same dimensions that are experienced in OBEs from the dream state, the only difference is the starting level of consciousness, the entry point, of the OBE. Rather than a physical dimension to astral shift, it is a dream dimension to astral shift.

These days I usually project into a higher energy body that is known as the "Mental body." It is an energy body that is so subtle that it is almost imperceptible, compared to the rather noticeable and comparatively dense lower energy bodies such as the etheric and lower astral energy bodies. I have a much freer range of dimensions that are open to be explored, simply with a statement of intent, very similar to the freedom of a lucid dream. There is less freedom in the lower astral dimensions, especially when first starting out, as it takes time and practice to learn how to consciously direct the movement of the energy body, and until one develops enough to be able to consciously experience the higher energy bodies and dimensions, one's explorations are generally limited to the lower realms.

I should add that by "lower" I do not mean negative or hellish dimensions, although I have encountered some rather unsavory beings in these places, but I simply mean lower on the spectrum of nonphysical dimensions, closer to the physical realm and the delusions and ignorance intrinsic of it, as opposed to the higher realms which are closer to the highest vibrations of love, of God, of infinite truth and wisdom, of bliss. The higher you go, the more these characteristics are prevalent, the more union one has with one's Higher Self, with one's true divine self.

These are among some of the similarities and differences that I have experienced between these different states. There are more, and I am actually currently writing a book about my experiences and discoveries, including dimension theory such as what I have just detailed, and much more. I'm sure I have left certain points out, so if any more come to me I'll be sure to post. Feel free to get back at me with any questions.

Metta

Originally Posted by matthias

Guys, I just wanna know the differences between LDs and OBE. Are LDs just the imaginations within our head??? Is OBE the actual leaving from the body?? In OBE, are we in the real physical world?? Please someone explain for me.....

OBE and Astral Projection is the same thing, but people name it differently. Both OBE's and AP's can be Lucid or Non-Lucid. OBE's and AP's are the same as any regular Lucid or Non-Lucid dream.

So all 3 are the same, but it is easier to explain the situation with words like OBE, instead of saying that you were dreaming in a place same or similar to your waking reality.

Of course they do feel different, all dreams feel different. You will always be amused and interested to lucid dream in a dreamworld that reminds you your waking reality or is same as your waking reality. But in the end, they are all dreams.

Inquiring about the difference between astral projection and OBE is somewhat like asking the difference between Martians and Plutonians. The difference is only theoretical, because the very existence of those things is theoretical. It is necessary to understand that everything written about astral projection, OBE's or whatever you'd like to call it is all assertion. People will produce a wide array of explanations, complete with commonly used terminology to explain the phenomena; much of it will be very specific and rather convincing. I should know; I wrote a great deal about the subject of OBE's and astral projection myself several years ago.

Despite this, the fact of the matter is, no one knows what they're talking about, and anyone who claims otherwise is effectively talking out of their ass. No one knows. There are many "theories" and explanations for them, much like there are many explanations for "divine" occurrences. No one knows. What we DO know, is that these experiences must be interpreted by the brain. Given this information, the only logical conclusion to draw about OBE is that it is an experience which is the result of an altered state of consciousness. In other words, an OBE isn't an OBE, but rather something you experience during an altered state of consciousness.

That doesn't make it any more or less "real" than if your consciousness were leaving your body and traveling elsewhere, it just means that you are experiencing it locally (entirely in your head) as opposed to in real space-time. There are also a slew of explanations for why an "astral projector" cannot for example recover information from far away and repeat that information again once conscious in a controlled environment.

Astral projection and OBE's are, in my opinion, just another form of lucid dreams. The experience happens in one's own mind, and nowhere else. I will not be so arrogant as to say that "astral projection/OBE" as it's defined now isn't possible; we make new scientific discoveries every day. But I would say that current science suggests that it is highly, highly likely that it happens all in one's own head. Science is constantly evolving, so who knows what we might find!

In short, the only difference between LD's OBE's and astral projection is whatever you experience personally. Perhaps there are vastly different types of lucid dreams that stimulate different parts of the brain and cause different experiences. Perhaps your consciousness really does leave the body, and we just haven't found away to measure that yet. Your best bet- enjoy the experience. Don't worry about what is proven or unproven, or what anyone on this forum thinks. My only advice to you regarding this, is no matter what "answers" you receive from someone here, promise yourself not to "know" anything as certain. Always wonder, always ask, but never "know."

Cheers

Originally Posted by flowofmysoul

Both OBE's and AP's can be Lucid or Non-Lucid. OBE's and AP's are the same as any regular Lucid or Non-Lucid dream. So all 3 are the same... But in the end, they are all dreams...

I would avoid stating these ideas as if they are facts. There are many experienced practitioners who would disagree, myself included.

Originally Posted by Rainman

Inquiring about the difference between astral projection and OBE is somewhat like asking the difference between Martians and Plutonians. The difference is only theoretical, because the very existence of those things is theoretical.

While the concepts and labels assigned to these experiences are theoretical in the sense that they cannot be proven, there is an experiential/practical aspect at hand which underlies an individual's interpretations of these various nonphysical excursions. This experiential reality can be used as a gauge to differentiate one type of experience from another, just as one can differentiate the feelings of love and fear through one's own experience, while these feelings are theoretical in a similar way- they are subjective/personal experiences whose felt/experienced reality cannot be proven to anyone else, despite physical and scientific indications that there is an objective process involved.

I'm not sure if you are indicating that it is fruitless to draw comparisons between different altered states of consciousness, but I believe that it is important to acquire a clear understanding of our experience.

Despite this, the fact of the matter is, no one knows what they're talking about, and anyone who claims otherwise is effectively talking out of their ass. No one knows. There are many "theories" and explanations for them, much like there are many explanations for "divine" occurrences. No one knows. What we DO know, is that these experiences must be interpreted by the brain. Given this information, the only logical conclusion to draw about OBE is that it is an experience which is the result of an altered state of consciousness. In other words, an OBE isn't an OBE, but rather something you experience during an altered state of consciousness.

I agree that we are unable to ascertain absolute truth regarding the nature of our experience. We have no choice but to use the acquired limited conceptual fabrications that are currently at our disposal to attempt to make sense of it all. However, I believe it is quite possible that an OBE is in fact an experience outside of the confines of the body, a projection of one's consciousness via a subtle energy body from a state of union with the physical body resonating in the physical dimension into higher frequency dimensions. Of course, it is all assimilated and translated in the brain, but being that this can be said for any other waking experience, this fact does little to negate the potential reality of the experience.

That doesn't make it any more or less "real" than if your consciousness were leaving your body and traveling elsewhere, it just means that you are experiencing it locally (entirely in your head) as opposed to in real space-time.

As I said above, this can be said for experiences in "real space-time" as well, that is, our experiences of normal waking reality are essentially "entirely in our heads." Perhaps there are dimensions of "real space-time" that are accessed during these experiences that are imperceptible to the physical level of awareness.

In short, the only difference between LD's OBE's and astral projection is whatever you experience personally.

That is not to say that these differences (and OBE/AP/LD experiences in general) do not reflect a valid system of nonphysical reality, as opposed to a complete fabrication of the brain. In other words, these differences may be more than just a personal fabrication or experience. They may very well be attributes of authentic dimensions of reality.

Originally Posted by VinceField

I would avoid stating these ideas as if they are facts. There are many experienced practitioners who would disagree, myself included.

I am an experienced practitioner myself and that is my point of view on OBE and AP.

Once upon a time, a man had a dream within a dream. He saw himself, and exclaimed, "I must be sleeping!" If it is possible, which it certainly is, what are the applications of such a function? Please, enlighten me, I am a sponge ready to absorb whatever murky waters you might wring out on top of me. Fill me up, because I'm ready to go!

Originally Posted by snoop

Once upon a time, a man had a dream within a dream. He saw himself, and exclaimed, "I must be sleeping!" If it is possible, which it certainly is, what are the applications of such a function? Please, enlighten me, I am a sponge ready to absorb whatever murky waters you might wring out on top of me. Fill me up, because I'm ready to go!

I believe the most important application of lucid dreaming and out of body experiences is they allow one to access deeper layers of self, giving rise to insights about the nature of self and reality that are generally unaccessible while one's consciousness is attuned to the physical dimension. These insights can have a deep and lasting impact on one's worldview, potentially giving rise to more enlightened understandings of seemingly elusive concepts such as the purpose of life and the nature of self, God, reality, etc, enriching one's life and catalyzing positive change in the physical world.

Of course, if one simply use these experiences to live out fantasies and satisfy sensual desires, this will do little to induce beneficial change in a person. When one engages in these experiences with the intention of acquiring deeper spiritual truths and transformational experiences, this is when the real journey begins.

Excellent response, quite lovely really.

Thank you snoop, it was a good question!

Robert Waggoner, the author of Lucid Dreaming: Gateway to the Inner Self, contrasts OBEs from lucid dreams as such:

"In short, those experiencing OBEs normally recognize their state from the start; they often report unique vibratory and energy sensations preceding their experience; they seem to accept and not change their environment; they seem to recall easily the details of their experience; and OBE reports contain more reference to ‘returning to the body.’ Lucid dreamers, by contrast, report that lucid dreams normally occur late at night and within a dream; lucid dreamers note a distinct change in awareness from non-lucid awareness to lucid awareness; they rarely report any unique sounds or sensations preceding their lucid dreams; they frequently change the environment; long lucid dreams seem relatively more difficult to recall in exact detail; and, finally, most lucid dreamers report that they decide to ‘wake up’ or realize the dream has ended (Lucid Dreaming: Gateway to the Inner Self, 29-30)."

I can induce both LD and OBE(not easy but with some difficulties of course) There is distinct difference.

> In LD I know it is a LD. Level of consciousness varies, usually doesn't exceeds that of waking life. I can feel vibrations, I can see aura, I can fly... Do different things, only limitation is will power and strength of belief that you can do things.

> OBE(astral, mental, budhic- I wasn't able to observe or exist in others) I feel different states of mind, different ways how consciousness can exist. I can describe thought process as using feeling, maybe intuition, and not "normal" way of thinking. Firstly I found tens of years ago that detachment of mind and stopping normal thought process stabilizes existence out of body. Different dimensions brings different limitation on state of mind. One learns kind of passive-active approach, to be like water, to adapt to environment requirements. To use intuition.

Originally Posted by VinceField

While the concepts and labels assigned to these experiences are theoretical in the sense that they cannot be proven, there is an experiential/practical aspect at hand which underlies an individual's interpretations of these various nonphysical excursions. This experiential reality can be used as a gauge to differentiate one type of experience from another, just as one can differentiate the feelings of love and fear through one's own experience, while these feelings are theoretical in a similar way- they are subjective/personal experiences whose felt/experienced reality cannot be proven to anyone else, despite physical and scientific indications that there is an objective process involved.

Thanks for your input, I see what you mean, and I agree. Also, forgive the arrogant tone of my response, it wasn't my intention to seem like a know it all. I think in the case of OBE's and Astral Projection and all of that, that Occam's Razor can be applied. Recently, I've taken a step back from everything. Previously I had been a complete spiritualist. Now I am trying to approach everything as scientifically as possible. My conclusion is that from a scientific perspective, the answer to every scientifically unprovable thing should be "perhaps."

Just as I will openly say "perhaps OBE's are real, and they are what has been theorized about them" (I'm leaning toward that possibility more each day), those who believe in it should approach the matter in the same way; perhaps they are not what we think they are. I do now believe that it may be possible for consciousness to act and/or be present outside of the body, though I can't conceive of how- but that's the point. It seems that the more we learn, scientifically speaking, the less we understand about how things work. I'm open to ideas.