That sounds about right. It is all possible, but few will ever develop the skills needed. |
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I'm not saying you shouldn't believe in shared dreaming, or even that I don't, but I just got an interesting idea and I would like to share it. Your memory is in your brain. Your thoughts are in your brain. Therefore, if your mind were to somehow connect to the dream plane, you would literally have to receive real physical input from the dream plane, into your brain. Which means that the dream plane is either a physical plane, or is capable of holding or transmitting physical things like forces/energies, electrical currents, or maybe even objects. This creates some doubt in my mind as this concept could open up whole new abilities such as secret communications, storing/summoning objects using the dream plane, hacking or breaking someone's mind, or a number of things that would probably have a large role in modern society. I would also like to hear the forum's thoughts on this, and I'm up for debating if anyone wants to. |
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Birds of the night..
That sounds about right. It is all possible, but few will ever develop the skills needed. |
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Some thoughts on this: |
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Exactly! |
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Also you brain would have to actually connect to the dream plane. I feel like having a portal to another dimension open up in your brain would cause some weird physics stuff to happen. And how would said dimension connect to your brain? Something has to connect it, it's not like it will just happen because you are sleeping... doors don't just open. There is a physical process to opening a door. |
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Last edited by Avian; 10-22-2014 at 07:58 AM.
Birds of the night..
Avian: |
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Hey, I wrote this topic on shared dreaming some time ago, you can have a read and let me know what you think. http://www.dreamviews.com/beyond-dre...-dreaming.html |
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Last edited by user5659; 10-23-2014 at 07:48 PM.
Well now, wouldn't disbelief in aliens be foolish just based off our current understanding? |
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Last edited by Sivason; 10-24-2014 at 09:09 PM.
These statements seem to be nothing more than a collection of assumptions and opinions, including the first two statements "your memory/thoughts are in your brain" even though they are presented as fact. It is quite possible that the brain is simply a medium between consciousness and the body/physical reality, and that thoughts and memory are functions and attributes of nonphysical consciousness that the brain decodes and transmits so that one may utilize these mental functions in the physical world. Perhaps the mind resonates on a much higher frequency than the physical dimension and the brain in a conduit that allows one's consciousness/mind to interact within a lower vibrational body. |
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Well sivason you are partially correct about the "pure science/atheist" deal. Many such people are just as ignorant as a zealot blinded by their own faith. I would assume they are like that because they are cynical people and it makes them feel good about themselves. But me, I am not like that. I absolutely believe that anything is possible... in fact I have my very own set of beliefs that is certainly not "atheist". The reason I deny things I don't have proof of is because of this concept: |
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Last edited by Avian; 10-25-2014 at 12:50 AM.
Birds of the night..
Well, I agree with your statement that there is no proof for the ideas that I presented (although I did not say that I believe they are true; I simply accept them as a possibility). However, it is a mistake to correlate a lack of physical proof with nonexistence. For one to say that something does not exist because it has not been proven by science (or any other means) is an act born of delusion, just as much as claiming that something does exist with no proof is. |
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Avian, Does that argument actually make sense? First lets assume I have no proof (I will address that in a moment), it sounds like you are saying if I believe in something with no proof, I should believe in all things with no proof? As a rational being why would that hold true. If a child asks me to guess what they have behind their back, I am more likely to believe it is either food or a toy (with no proof) than I am to believ it is any severed part of a body. I have no proof for either; I believe one, but do not consider the other as practicle. In your example isn't dark magic and psi far more practicle than a monster under my bed. With no background of any kind, I may instictive know that monsters under my bed make far less sense than some theoretical form of energy I do not understand. |
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I am not sure if you guys quite understand what I am trying to say. I am not in any way denying that any of these things exist. Well, let's take an imaginary object called "A". Then there are "B" and "C". We have proof that B exists, and we have proof that C does not exist. So B is in the realm of existing things and C is in the realm of non-existing things. We have no proof that A exists, and we have no proof that A doesn't exist. That puts A neither in the realm of existing things or non-existing things. There is no reason to believe in A, because there are literally infinite things like it that you have just as good reason to believe in. To do so would be absolutely random and illogical. Now take the object "D". We have no proof as to whether D exists, but there is a reason to believe it. Maybe you think it is cool, or maybe you have some evidence but it is not definitive. It is still not logical to believe in D in its current state, as it is still in the same group as A. This is a point where you might want to use the scientific method to take D and put it in the same group as B, or C, and then you will know its true state. But if you don't know the state of whether something exists, even if you have a reason to believe it, it is still illogical to believe it. |
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Birds of the night..
Ok. A B C D |
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Last edited by Sivason; 10-25-2014 at 08:30 AM.
Wait a minute, how? Could you elaborate on this please? Why would the very probable existence of aliens and the belief that they very probably exist be viewed by anyone (other than religious people) as foolish? To me this is not a very good argument, because given the great length of time that the universe has already existed and its vast reach, what exactly makes the idea that aliens might exist seem foolish? I get that you are trying to say that there isn't solid evidence proving they are real (even though there kind of is, although that is subject to another debate), but our current knowledge and understanding of the universe suggests that they would, in fact, exist, especially given the fact that we do. We have already found evidence of microorganisms living on different planets and celestial bodies other than our own, and we have found plenty of water on said bodies as well, even if it is frozen. Trying to use this to prove that disproving shared dreaming doesn't make sense... doesn't make sense. Now, using that argument to prove that disproving dreaming itself exists makes sense, because there isn't any "direct" way to prove dreaming actually occurs other than our subjective experiences, claims, and then brain scans and whatnot. Even then, that doesn't work well since there is a way of measuring "dreaming", so long as the subject can confirm they were dreaming during the time period in which the scans suggest dreaming is actually occurring. Shared dreaming on the other hand takes it a step further than that, and that is where your alien argument falls apart. For your alien argument to make more sense, you would have to claim that not only do aliens exist, but we make regular contact with them, only those who do are not allowed to tell anybody or have their memories wiped clean after contact. Then, you would be making a case, because nobody could prove you otherwise. Do you see what I'm saying? |
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Shared dreaming is actually very easy to proof in a scientific way. The only thing you need are some skilled lucid dreamers. Give one of them a number of word, let them share a dream and say this number/word to the other person. Check if the word/number they received, is correct. |
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Let's start with the first huge issue. Please find me 2 people who claim to have this ability. Next out of the entire pool (so far zero) of suppossedly qualified subjects eliminate any who do not claim to be able to do this reliably with over a 50% success rate (so, zero minus, hmmm). Now come up with enough funding to take them away from their lives and fly them to a controlled enough enviroment (anyone that skilled is probably leading a good life and will want a nice vacation package for them and their spouse). |
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Last edited by Sivason; 10-25-2014 at 04:27 PM.
Sorry sviason, I misread your post, woops. |
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It is possible to have objective, independently verified evidence for something without being able to control it in a lab environment. To use a variation on Sivason's example, I don't think that the earth has alien visitors, and think that travel across space between stars in probably effectively impossible. However, suppose that aliens were frequently visiting the earth, and a lot of people were seeing them and talking to them. There's a level of evidence past which most reasonable people would conclude that the aliens are real. But that evidence would still be far short of being able to prove their existence in a controlled study, because scientists do not control the aliens. Scientific study in that sense isn't even the right way to approach the problem. The right kind of 'science' would be more like an objectively careful investigative journalism, such as how scientists study rare animals that they can't or don't want to harm by capture. It would be silly to argue that gorillas wouldn't exist if cameras didn't exist or if nobody had killed and dissected one. |
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Perhaps what you were trying to say was a bit different from what you actually said. I completely understood your posts and responded in complete accordance with the statements you had made. If I said something inappropriate or if you believe what I said doesn't apply, I would be interested to know. |
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So...your saying...if we believe in shared dreaming, we HAVE TO believe that somewhere out there, theres a talking tin man from the Wizard of Oz that is best friends with a talking, walking scarecrow. I don't follow this thought process. |
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Dreams are today's answers to tomorrow's questions. ~ Edgar Cayce
Belief doesn't need the proof. To believe in something doesn't require existence of that something. |
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Psionic, |
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Last edited by Sivason; 10-26-2014 at 04:19 AM. Reason: double post
While projecting I can't use thoughts... they disrupt state of consciousness and therefore much shorten experience. I use something like feelings... I can try to concentrate on finding something foreign... Dunno... Level of awareness is much higher than in waking state and I don't remember to be aware anything foreign in my mind... It is so clean... without thoughts... I would feel it if it is there. |
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