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    Thread: opening the third eye or other chakras

    1. #26
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      Darkmatters,

      I think that silly and dangerous arenít entirely mutually exclusive. Use of strong narcotics in pursuit of wisdom would be an example.
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    2. #27
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      I just can't reconcile silly and maelstrom - to me there's no connection there. I feel like, almost by definition, as soon as something becomes dangerous it can no longer be called silly. But that's just semantics really - I think I understand the point you were making - that it's not a good idea to do chakra meditation where you visualize and feel the opening of each chakra, but instead you must actually make the moral effort of overcoming the various fears. I've now re-watched the video and taken notes. And as I already mentioned, I have made good progress on facing certain of my fears - time to start work on the others in the video.
      Last edited by Darkmatters; 11-25-2017 at 04:16 AM.

    3. #28
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      Maelstrom was not an ideal choice of word.

      My opinion is that most of our fears are learned reactions to genuine dangers. Of course, fear can be exaggerated or misplaced, and sometimes things that are feared for good reason are still worth facing.

      Suppose you could fully feel the life experience of the animals you eat, or that you could fully emotionally grasp the whole nature of what it means to eat something, independent of what the animal was capable of experiencing. Would that be a good thing? Generally speaking, I don't think so, not right now for most people.

      Suppose that for everything unhealthy you might be tempted to do but aren't, you knew exactly what the initial moment would feel like, as if you had done it before. Would that be good? I think this would be a disaster, we would quickly destroy ourselves. Often we can resist temptation when we know more of the depth of what something really is, when we see beyond surface appearances. Then it doesn't pull on us. But I don't think that kind of patience of perspective is quickly acquired at will. As we slowly gain that depth, our chakras also develop, I think. But if we open them more quickly through meditative practice, I don't think that helps very much with the depth, and we further a destructive imbalance.

      I think that the time that it takes for significant development is very long. We go through something like reincarnation, or we inherit karma from others. Within our lives we have some choice about what we do and whether we improve, but we can't go very far outside of the place that circumstance allows for us. We're like monkeys trying to master the universe. Its a worthy struggle, but its counterproductive if we wildly misunderstand what's within reach or how to attain it. In that sense I think all religions are wrong. They're all useful, but also oversell themselves, and pretend that they answer more or deliver more than they do.

      To me the most important thing is to live and learn and try to do the things we perceive to be right. If we hide from our honest perceptions because they don't tell us what we want, then we lose ourselves. But its a process of putting one foot in front of the other. There are many things we need to know that if we saw them now we would not understand anyway. Its like being a child, and growing up, and having the space we need to not grow up too fast.

    4. #29
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      Ok, that makes sense. And I agree that progress needs to be slow - I think it almost can't help but be slow. Assuming it's something that does take time - you're not going to be able to build a city overnight - even trying would just be impossible. More than that, I believe it takes a deliberate progression - a regular or nearly daily habit, like exercise. Work hard at it on a regular basis and make slow gradual progress that you can't really see except in hindsight - example, after working out for months and constantly thinking you're not getting anywhere you see a picture of yourself from just before you started and realize you actually have made progress, just so slowly that you didn't notice. And with exercise anyway, the progress isn't linear at all - it comes in fits and starts - long dry stretches punctuated by what seem like almost sudden leaps forward. But still it only happens if you commit yourself to a regular program and don't fall off of it.

      That's how I did it for exercise and nutrition, starting about 2 and 1/2 years ago, and that's how I did it with stoicism starting 3 years ago. Little did I realize I was also working on my chakras - I didn't find that out until just a few days ago. Or that I was also working toward individuation. But as it turns out, they're all essentially the same thing. I suppose if you work on the character virtues, then you'll find you're accomplishing many different things - or rather that there are many different names for them in different traditions. The methods for self development are the same in all of them, only the names have been changed.

      I did write down all the various chakras and what is required to open them, and stoicism really does seem to cover all the bases. Not saying I'm all the way there, but I've already made significant progress - life changing progress actually, in the last 3 years.

    5. #30
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      Darkmatter, as an Alan Watts fanboy I almost have to ask if you've heard Alan Watts lecture on Jungs Shadow? I haven't spent too much time on Jung so far, but that lecture is one of my all time favourites.

      Edit: Meant to put this in the Jung Thread. But whatever.
      Last edited by LighrkVader; 11-26-2017 at 10:23 PM.
      "Some Alan Watts quote."

      -Alan Watts

    6. #31
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      I've skimmed this thread and I'm not here to contribute anything of value except to expound on the sentiment of Hunter x Hunter and Mistborn being awesome.

      Some brief on-topic musings: I'm fairly new to these concepts in a formal sense (and I'm trying to limit my formal understanding, hence the skimming, sorry T_T). I ended up doing things in a practical setting for the sake of other pursuits and now recently finding out that these centers of focus I had been feeling/working with in meditations, in my day to day, etc matched up in number, location, and function to these "chakras". Still feels weird saying it.

      Pineal gland and literal third eye stuff is almost certainly nonsense. Everything else? My experience seems to suggest there's something to it. But I'm hesitant to accept and adhere to ancient belief systems just because they're old and "this is the way things have been done for centuries". I figure, if someone figured this stuff out once with minimal/no guidance, I can do the same.
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    7. #32
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      Good taste!

      I got the results for my presentation on the subject back today! It went very well. And the professor appreciated that I took a different approach to the subject, which was adaptations

      I'm probably just misunderstanding what part of it all you mean is nonsense. But the litteral third eye and the pineal glands connection to it is quite certainly not nonsense in the bio-scientific sense. Now... I haven't really spent any time or energy trying to draw lines between, and make assumptions on the spiritual side of things based on scientific articles. But there could be connections

      Interestingly mysticism surrounding the pineal gland started long before we realized it is connected it to the parietal eye. An example woul be that RenŤ Decartes (who was no doubt quite a thinker in his time) thought it to be the place where the soul interacted with the material world.

      There's also lots of stuff about egyptians and the pineal gland but I'm not gonna recite that. Any idiot can find support for his claims by smoking a bowl and looking at hieroglyphs for a few hours (Ancient Egypt is a whole other level of trippy I haven't dared getting into yet)

      BUT! There IS a third eye in your head. It's called a pineal gland and it is no longer photoreceptive in mammals. But it used to be! Birds still have photoreceptive pineal glands in their skulls where as lizards and some other species have their pineal gland directly attached to a primitive eye on the top of their skull. So technically their pineal gland is also photoreceptive.

      Now then... do we know enough about how the brain works to say "it is very unlikely that our pineal gland could be central to consciousness in more ways than regulating cyclic patterns by means of secreting melatonin"? No we don't, not in any epistemologically sound sense anyway.... I'll give a short explanation of why. But this is a subject that requires a very long text followed by several longer replies to clear up misunderstandings. I have done that before, but I have exams coming up and I am waaaayyyyy behind on my math

      Our spiritual paradigm is as every paradigm before it an overreaction to the paradigm it toppled. In the name of a non-religious world we have developed a religious overconfidence in our understanding of consciousness described by the brain. This is part of a greater religion, called scientism by some. It's existance depends, among other things, upon a lack of education in the inherent limitations and requirements of the scientific method of aquiring certain knowledge. An example of a requirement that is not fullfilled in a lot of psychological studies would be the requirement of isolation. This is a huge problem and it is only one of many.

      Then... because of the way science uses previous scientific findings(or god forbid vague implications of scientific findings) as certain premises in it's logic, the uncertainty introduced by sciencing stuff that can't be scienced properly is not limited to one experiment, rather it is accumulative.

      So you are left with people religiously basing their world views on the vague implications of half-science, that again was based on a long line of results and implications generated by other half-scientific experiments. It's not as certain as people think. From an epistemological stand point a lot of scientific common sense is as full of holes as any theory I could come up with from the comfort of my favourite chair.

      And the problem isn't that they do it or believe in it. Thats fine. The problem is that they do it with the same vigorous, unquestioning, self limiting certainty of someone saying:

      "It's in the Bible. So it's the truth.... No, I can't read... but the priest said it. And he read the Bible!"
      "It's science, so it's the truth... No, I'm not qualified to evaluate the results... but it was in the news paper, they know everything!"

      Thats what I mean by religious. And religion is fine, great even... if you're willing to call it what it is.

      The paradigm pendulum might already be starting to swing the other way though, and sooner or later we will have an overly spiritual or magical period, probably largely inspired by the eastern traditions. I am under the impression that Sageous thinks it is happening, though I won't speak for him. I suspect we are only observing minor oscillations rippling along the lower frequency. Every single oscillation is as far as I am concerned an evolution. Everybody sees the benefits of science so the next swing of the paradigm pendulum will bring that with it and be closer to the center than the previous swing. And by trial and error we are possibly working our way towards what would be called an ESS in game theory.

      Back to the pineal gland. What we can say for sure is this: The pineal gland is deeply connected to some of the least understood parts of conscious beings.


      Edit: Please don't make too many assumptions on my standpoints based on this short text there are many things I would love to expand on if I wasn't so busy.
      Last edited by LighrkVader; 11-30-2017 at 03:53 PM.
      "Some Alan Watts quote."

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    8. #33
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      Nonsense in the sense that you can literally open it through some spiritual means.

      Beyond that, from a biological standpoint, we can't say much too much more about it than that it's evolutionary cruft that seems to have more utility and function than our appendix.

      Any other assertion is just speculation and attributions of importance seem unwarranted and superfluous to me.

      Again, I'm just here cause Brandon Sanderson is the GOAT and Oathbringer is amazing so far.
      Last edited by Mzzkc; 12-01-2017 at 02:54 AM.
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    9. #34
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      I agree with you mostly...

      I really shouldn't nitpick like this....Buuuuuuuuuuut.... I wouldn't call it cruft... the new version evolved to be the way it is because it provided an advantage that was larger than that of it's previous version... The pineal gland is absolutely essential to survival and we can also be quite certain that it's essential to reproduction by timing seasonal mating behaviour.

      You could say the wings of bats are cruft from front legs of mammals... but it doesn't make sense. A bat without wings would make a shitty bat.

      Edit: I was just powdering my nose... when I finished I sat down to take a shit and I came to to think of the appendix... And I think it's quite likely that the appendix has some important function as well. Seeing as it is a major source of fatality it would likely have dissapeared from the gene pool if it wasn't of use. There are several ways I could be wrong here... but yeah.

      Back to books I haven't gotten around to reading anything else by him yet actually... But I am always looking for good fiction.

      Where would you start?
      Last edited by LighrkVader; 12-01-2017 at 12:44 PM.
      "Some Alan Watts quote."

      -Alan Watts

    10. #35
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      ^^ Wait, what?

      I thought you were telling us that the pineal gland had an important, as yet undiscovered role in human perception, perhaps even of a (currently) supernatural or mystical (aka, Third Eye) sort? Or are you saying that humans have a seasonal mating behavior? I'm assuming that I misunderstood you, but if not, does the fact that a pineal gland still has a role in, say, an iguana's perception really point to it having any perceptual role in humans (much less a mystical one)?

      Perhaps the appendix has a mystical value as well; maybe it is meant to explode in people who should not be alive! Just kidding, of course...But I do think the hair on my toes and my annoying wisdom tooth might want to offer a word about DNA not necessarily removing every obsolete feature from our programs on a timely basis.

      Also:
      Quote Originally Posted by LighrkVader View Post
      The paradigm pendulum might already be starting to swing the other way though, and sooner or later we will have an overly spiritual or magical period, probably largely inspired by the eastern traditions. I am under the impression that Sageous thinks it is happening, though I won't speak for him.
      Yep, your impression was just fine; the ship of reason, loaded with its cargo of Truth, has not only left our shores but is already just a speck on the horizon at this point, and sailing away fast... and nobody seems to care, at least in the U.S.

      Where I might disagree is in that bit about Eastern traditions; I doubt very much of our current courtship with irrationality is based on anything other than our own personal (and occasional collective) fantasies.
      Last edited by Sageous; 12-01-2017 at 08:29 PM.
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    11. #36
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      Haha. Oh no... I really need to get better at getting my opinions across. I'm always getting misunderstood

      Trust I would never try to convince somebody of something like that. But when it comes to whats real, I will entertain almost any possibility. Not because I believe in it... just for the sake of fun, funny thoughts, images and implications...often interesting perspectives that can be applied to other topics and evolving my mind. I am no longer obsessed with trying to expand my understanding of the universe by setting down new schemas.. I want to evolve and have fun.

      Sounds cheezy but I subscribe to this quote about the mind: "when it's open it grows". Thats my style, I enjoy it a lot, so I like to share it... or try to.... it obviously makes me come of as an idiot some times hahahaha.

      I really haven't come across any especially good reason to think the pineal gland is anything more than a gland. So if for some reason somebody put me in a chair and told me I had to decide on the nature of the pineal gland my reply would be just that... "it's just a gland"... Same thing with the dreaming plants.

      Luckily I don't have to choose! haha. I don't need a belief or set understanding. What use is that to me? I can keep an open mind and it will have no negative effect on my life what so ever..I think

      Time will tell whats real. And I'm not going anywhere. Not in a hurry. If plants do dream I will have a first hand experience of that at some point. That's based in a belief that I have and stand by. I am eternal.

      Science is great. But in certain fields it is by it's very nature not able to produce results with the level of epistemological strength that I personally require before I make something a part of my belief system. That doesn't mean I dismiss those results... I just add them to my pool of possibilities where they mix and blend creating funny new ideas.. And I can go sailing around my little pond of mind looking at all the different combinations.

      Another thing is that if my beliefs and expectations have the power to limit and shape my reality like they do in dreams I wouldn't want to filter out all the mysterious magical stuff by deciding that it can't be real... I love mystery and weirdness... My life is trippy as hell, but I can handle it and I want more. I am pretty sure you do to if I remember correctly.

      Edit:

      1:When I talk about the pineal gland I don't really focus on humans. Its there in almost all vertebrates. So thats why the season mating behaviour comes from.
      2: I have read my fair share on genetics and evolution. Thats is why put the disclaimer about how my appendix hypothesis could be wrong in several ways in there.
      Last edited by LighrkVader; 12-01-2017 at 09:44 PM.
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      "Some Alan Watts quote."

      -Alan Watts

    12. #37
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      ^^ Cool. Thanks for the clarification, and I am glad I misunderstood!
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      Quote Originally Posted by LighrkVader View Post
      I subscribe to this quote about the mind: "when it's open it grows".
      My favorite quote on the subject: "A mind is like a parachute. Sometimes you need it open, but try walking around with it dragging behind you all the time. Those sudden gusts of wind are a killer!" ~ Me.

      My other favorite: "He has a mind like a steel trap. At the first sign of a new idea it snaps shut and anybody nearby is liable to get hurt." ~ Also me.

    14. #39
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      Last night while sleeping I gouged a vertical strip of skin from in the center of my forehead with my fingernail. Its deep enough that it will take weeks to heal. This is the third time I've done this. The previous time was 16 months ago. I can't think of any other examples of me doing something crazy like this. The last two times I was lucid when it happened, and there wasn't any emotional content, thought, or anxiety, the impetus was from somewhere deeper than that level. Am I trying to scratch open my third eye or scratch it out? [Edit: There was negative emotion the second time, but not the third time.]

      (Technically I can think of other examples of this kind of 'crazy' in the sense that all karma is in some deep sense self-inflicted, and is not all 'positive' or understood. Many years ago I involuntarily flicked my hand hard enough to somehow fling a snugly fit ring off. But in that case the reason became clear shortly afterwards. My forehead gouge stands apart in that it was clearly deliberate and I still have no idea why I did it.)

      Hi Mzzkc, it has been a long time.

      I think that reading about chakras doesn't carry much risk of idea contamination. Everyone is psychically exposed to those ideas whether they're aware of it or not. Even when someone thinks they're discovering something for themselves, often they're tapping into existing dogma. The fact that they've seemed to discover it independently may be evidence that they're subconsciously psychic, but doesn't validate that the ideas and experiences themselves aren't delusional. When we read about something, at least its more out in the open. And we both already know anything we read about religious or paranormal stuff is at least three quarters bullshit, so we won't get duped by it the way we could otherwise.

      I also think that its possible for existing theologies to contain insights that are beyond what we're capable of reaching independently, even if the people who built those theologies are not more intelligent or insightful than we are. Using math as an analogy, a gifted person could come up with arithmetic and aspects of algebra or calculus from scratch by themselves. But no genius could make any headway on more advanced topics without first studying the work of others. There's too much, much too much involved for one person to work through in a single life. Other subjects in science and engineering are like this now also.

      Meditation isn't math, and I take a back-seat to no one in my contempt for all mainstream and 'alternative' religious dogmas. I find it amazing how intellectually corrupt it all is, and how incapable people seem to be of thinking honestly and for themselves. But realistically, I think we're still indebted to others who lived before we did, even if we've rightly rejected the largest part of their beliefs.

      In my observation, a characteristic of most philosophically inclined people is they underestimate the amount of rigor required to arrive at definite knowledge. In raja yoga, we're supposed to be able to know truth just by focusing our inner light on it. And yet, everyone I've read about or encountered who believes this embraces many ridiculous falsehoods which they are convinced are 'true' because their inner light seems to tell them so. I think that acquiring inner knowledge requires more time, rigor, communication, and 'outward' experience than has generally been appreciated.

      In any case, if your point was more that thinking about chakras and writing about it isn't of value for you, I won't argue at all with that.

      One other note....I know nothing at all about the pineal gland, and have not read about it. But if its true as suggested in this thread that it has something to do with reproductive instinct, then I think it must have something to do with religious discovery also. To me these are clearly linked in a fairly deep way. I'm not suggesting that a person can accomplish anything useful by trying to 'stimulate their pineal gland', or whatever silly things people might try to do with it. This sort of thing strikes me as being kind of like trying to acquire knowledge by beating oneself in the head with a book. But spiritual and physical regeneration are in my mind connected to the same desire or instinct, understood and directed in a very different way. And I would expect that some stages of spiritual progress would have physical implications also. Our minds aren't wholly independent from our brains and our bodies. In my experience everything fits together like a big puzzle. Of course it is possible to draw foolish conclusions when speculating about how everything fits together. And of course people do a lot of that, the New Age sections of the world's (remaining) bookstores are full of that. But as I see it those those interrelationships are still there anyway, even though we're mostly unable to recognize and understand them.
      Last edited by shadowofwind; 12-03-2017 at 09:47 PM.

    15. #40
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      Quite a long time, indeed. You are quite right: it's more or less impossible to avoid inadvertent information bleed on these topics. I managed to avoid most finer details until recently, though I wouldn't be surprised if I came across things in passing over the years. Of course that said, it's important to me, as I experiment, that I minimize schematic contamination. This way when I find results, verifying them against outside sources and/or prior works and seeing where my discoveries differ, and how, becomes that much more of a useful exercise.

      Now, it's been suggested to me that I take the time and energy formally teach myself this, and related pursuits. Actually, a big part of my return to DV was mining it for what small truths I could... So I'm thinking maybe I've got some reading to do, after all

      Still doubt I'll have much of anything to contribute. Y'all seem to have discussed this topic much more thoroughly than I could hope to match. But if you're insisting I steal some insight from here... =P

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      Quote Originally Posted by shadowofwind View Post
      And yet, everyone I've read about or encountered who believes this embraces many ridiculous falsehoods which they are convinced are 'true' because their inner light seems to tell them so. I think that acquiring inner knowledge requires more time, rigor, communication, and 'outward' experience than has generally been appreciated.
      .
      I like the inner knowledge, inner light, faith stuff. But it gets problematic when you try to use it and judge it in terms of the common causal, disective, investigative, explanation-based means of aquiring knowledge. There really is no compatibility between what you are trying to explain/understand and the way you are going about it.... If somebody told you to look around the room and describe it, would you clench your teeth and start moving your eyes super quickly to focus your attention on all the objects and lines in the room? No!. you use your periferal vision. Different means for different ends.

      And so you make it a lot harder than it has to be.

      It's actually very simple: Trying to understand the universe by explaining it can be very practical, but in many ways it makes no sense. It's like zooming in on a fractal trying to get to the center. But it's a fractal, it goes on eternally... so the center is the whole thing. You're looking at it right now.. Look around the room... thats the answer. But this goes completely against your patterns...

      This is what gurus are for... to get you to drop those patterns they make you do all sorts of ridiculous things so that when you are ready you may get to the secret.
      And you'll get more and more confused untill suddenly you realize that you never needed a guru. And that he never knew any more than you did. You were looking at the same thing from different angles...
      A good guru knows that... the only reason he is a guru is because there are always seekers and he knows that if he closed shop, you would just go elsewhere. And he doesn't want you to end up in a religious sekt where the leader has mal intent.

      Then why am I writing this....? Because I like it. hahah

      If I was to say anything it would be this: You don't acquire inner knowledge. You have it.. Sounds stupid... but thats the best I can do today.

      If I tried to explain the rather bullet proof case supporting the people who "embrace ridiculous falsehoods" in the name of faith it would suffer in the same way. And I'm not going to try because it is far beyond my skill with words and philosophy. And I would make a fool of myself. It is very interesting... but it is much more useful to understand faith by faith itself. (and this is why we don't argue with christians)

      An interesting addition, with some very nice implications: When we look closely at faith and logic, we find that there is solid logic behind putting your trust in faith. And likewise that there is faith in putting your trust in logic.
      Some people have a lot of trouble accepting these statements... Especially in our time. But both are true.

      Edit: Oh! and the whole forehead scratching thing! I can't think of anything valuable to say about it. But that is so messed up! hahaha.
      Hope it heals ok. But hey, at least if it gets infected and leaves a horrible scar you can just cover it up with a third eye tattoo Did you come up with an excuse for when people ask what happened? Hope you're not a married woman. haha
      Last edited by LighrkVader; 12-07-2017 at 03:38 PM.
      "Some Alan Watts quote."

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    17. #42
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      Quote Originally Posted by LighrkVader View Post
      Hope you're not a married woman. haha
      He isn't. I guess inner knowledge doesn't help with outer stuff, huh?

    18. #43
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      haha. Apparently not, though in it's defense I did have a feeling
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      When my coworkers asked I just told them what happened. Besides trying to gouge out my third eye, another theory is that I have a maggots nest or something in my frontal lobe that my subconscious is trying to tell me about.

      I think an almost universal limitation of gurus is each one has a special insight, but believes it is the only insight that matters in general. I think there generally isn't a clear line between that kind of arrogance and 'mal intent'.

      Yes I agree, there's something a bit peculiar about how we model everything. We have the ability to directly contact things with our minds, and yet, we mostly use that contact to construct a personal caricature of everything which we carry around in our heads.

      You're saying you felt I'm a woman? I experience myself as being male, or genderless, or as a woman wearing a man, depending on what I'm considering. I experience other people that way also. When I express myself, I put on a kind of ponderously analytical persona that I'm not entirely comfortable with. If I attempt to communicate in the more intuitive, metaphorical manner I would otherwise express, to most people it seems like I'm neurotic, or making stuff up without any sound basis. Also, reason has its place and value, which I appreciate, even though in a sense I don't start from there.

      I think it isn't possible to understand another person without a fair amount of mind reading. The meaning really isn't in the words for the most part. But when the other person's thoughts are too different from one's own, and they don't provide enough signs to help, it can seem like there's no real content there at all. To me an important part of communication is to assume the other person has something to say. Then it becomes possible to understand something which is even a bit beyond what the person intended, and both people grow.

      A scientist who disparages faith nevertheless is capable of putting enough faith in a hypothesis to follow through on it and find out if its true or not.

      Even if a religious person puts their faith in a falsehood, they're still doing a kind of contrapositive proof with their life. A difficulty in the meantime of course is that philosophical dogmas tend to twist around evidence in ways that reinforce rather than correct the error. For example, my guru is such a positive light in the world that Satan works extra hard to defeat him, which accounts for all the especially terrible temptations he sometimes yields to, and all the slanderous things that his enemies say about him.

      Thinking about these chakras more, I'm struck by how out of balance they are in some regards in relation to each other. It seems like a useful exercise.

      My intuition suggests that the 'trying to scratch out my third eye' interpretation is true, but I don't know if that intuition is right or not. In the past, I have at times felt horrified by events that it seems I can feel are going to happen to people which have not found a way to happen yet, and I shrink away from the part of myself that feels that. Now I don't have premonitions like I did in the past, and I don't feel that so much, but I guess it is still there in some form.

      To me, one of the beautiful things about life is how we can't forever hide from ourselves. We run, but the truth catches up eventually. In one view, this is damnation, but its also redemption, its what keeps us from deluding and losing ourselves forever. I'm feeling really good about this today, how trustworthy it is, and how nice it is to have something that can be trusted like that, and the devotion and gratitude this inspires.

      Thanks for your thoughts.
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    20. #45
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      haha. no, I assumed that you were a dude. Thats the feeling I had.

      I like a lot of people can't understand the genderqueer thing. Not saying it's not real. Obviously it seems to be a matter of faith? I haven't read about it and I'm never alone with my only openly genderqueer friend. I don't feel comfortable asking her to educate me about it around everybody else. Me and my buddies tend to talk and tell jokes without thinking, and we all know we don't mean nothing by it... but she seems a bit fragile and I don't want to put her in a situation where she opens up and tells us about something she's passionate about, only to feel like she's getting shat on.

      Anyway, here is how I see it so far:
      I don't know what it feels like to be a woman. I've been a man my whole life. So if I should ever get the idea that "right now I feel like a woman" how do I know I am not just feeling the way I think a woman feels... That wouldn't make me a woman. It would make me a man who currently feels the way he thinks a woman feels. (I know I am probably trying to rationalize faith here...)

      But more practically then! Can't someone who is male do and appreciate all the things that culture considers womanly without being woman? I feel like a lot of this stuff is about wanting to break down our gender roles to let people be free to be themselves. Yet it feels like it is actually enforcing the idea that these roles and inherent differences are real and that it's supposed to be a certain way.
      If genderqueer people said: "I'm a dude. But I also like stuff that is considered girly. Some times I even like to pretend I'm a girl for fun" that would undermine the gender roles.
      But they don't say it like that.. instead they might say: "I am both a girl and a boy because I like both boy stuff and girl stuff. And also because I feel like a girl sometimes, and other times I feel like a boy. Oh and stop enforcing gender roles"

      When they say it like that, they are basically implying that "girls are one way, boys are another way. Because I am both ways I need to be both boy and girl." Thereby living by and enforcing the gender roles they claim don't apply to them. Also it creates a distance between them and people who want to fit in with societies norms. They seem too far out, and so people who could be ok with the first version will say "nah... thats weird. He has a dick"

      Again. I'm a noob at this topic. I wasn't gonna write this much about it, but it just happened...


      There definitely are preachers and gurus who are in it to rob their followers of all their money though. That would be what I mean by mal-intent.

      Edit: reread and saw that it was hard to undestand, so I rephrased a bit.
      Last edited by LighrkVader; 12-09-2017 at 02:52 PM.
      "Some Alan Watts quote."

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    21. #46
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      I think everyone is confused about identity. And for people posting on 'beyond dreaming', there may be even more confusion, because we're talking about experiencing ourselves as being outside of the boundaries defined by our physical bodies.

      I agree there's been a trend towards forcing people into identity categories rather than letting people be and express what they want to. There's also still a trend in the other direction going on at the same time though, even in the minds of many of the same people.

      Even if we embrace an ethic of gender agnosticism, I think it is unavoidable for most people to identify primarily as one or the other, and to want other people to recognize them that way. Gender distinctions exist both for biological reasons and because of more fundamental principles. Even though there is a huge amount of personal variation of experience, that experience falls very generally into two clusters which people can feel. And the category that people feel they can identify as does not always conform to their visible genetalia. My point is there's a psychic aspect to this, in addition to cultural ideas and distributions of physical characteristics.

      By fundamental principles, I mean the way that a great many things have natural dichotomies. Active/passive, light/dark, electric/magnetic, desire/feeling, etc. In the case of electromagnetism, as an example, the dichotomy is built in, its not merely a symptom of how we think about it, imposed from the outside. The way in which we self-identify with various psychological dichotomies influences our thoughts and feelings about gender. Its a subtle thing, the 'I am this' feeling, and it strongly determines what we experience even if we don't think about it consciously.

      As you may know, jnana yoga is pretty much exclusively about movement of sense of identity. I don't think it is a path to liberation in quite the sense that its taught to be. But in any case, it is powerful beyond just subjective experience, and I doubt I'd ever had experienced dream telepathy, astral projection, premonitions, etc. without having done some of that thinking.

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