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    1. #26
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      You still called me a hypocrite. You gonna stand by that too?

    2. #27
      Always there just in time kingofclutch's Avatar
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      Ok I'm sorry that you are sad from me calling you a hypocrite. You said something that could have been taken different ways and I thought you meant something that you didn't. Why do you have to cry whenever someone calls someone a liar or a hypocrite? It is my opinion and you don't have to get so angry about it.
      Last edited by kingofclutch; 03-23-2008 at 09:55 PM.

    3. #28
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      I'm neither crying nor angry. But it does look like we're getting somewhere now.

      So, true or false, the staff of DV explicitly state that the Beyond Dreaming forum is made for topics like shared dreaming and is only for members who believe in those topics.

      True or False?

    4. #29
      Always there just in time kingofclutch's Avatar
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      True, but I don't even think anyone really care, besides you. What are you gonna do? Are you going to report me for not believing?

    5. #30
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      No, I'm not. Again, "I'm OK with someone offering an alternative take on topics in Beyond Dreaming. What I'm not OK with is someone calling everyone who had an experience that convinced them that something like shared dreaming was real "liars"."

      Which brings me to my next point, let's assume for a moment that shared dreaming is not real. Let's say that someone has a dream and tells a friend about it the next day. The friend happens to have a remarkably similar dream in which his friend appeared. The friend then goes online and claims that he has the ability to enter other peoples dreams. Yes or no, is it fair to call him a liar?

    6. #31
      Always there just in time kingofclutch's Avatar
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      Yes, either he's a liar or a complete moron.

    7. #32
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      Well, that's where we differ. I'd say that he was mistaken, but it's not like he invented the experience. He really had a dream that was remarkably similar to another person who appeared in the dream. He just interpreted the experience differently than you would. He accepted the experience as proof of shared dreaming while others would say that it was simply a coincidence. If anything he said was untrue it was simply because he interpreted it wrong. There was no intentional "lie".

    8. #33
      Always there just in time kingofclutch's Avatar
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      Ok then it wasn't a 'lie' but it was untrue and he is not very smart. Do you agree with me that he isn't very smart then?

    9. #34
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      Not at all. I know a lot of extremely smart people who believe in things I don't. Look at Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, the author of the Sherlock Homes stories. He had a strong belief in many paranormal and fantasy things, including, pixies. The person in my example made a mistake in the way he analyzed his experience, but in my opinion it wasn't a huge leap of to think that he and his friend may have shared a dream. Simply harboring a belief in something that may or may not be real has no connection to intelligence.
      Last edited by 27; 03-23-2008 at 07:06 AM.

    10. #35
      Revd Sir Stephen, Ph.D StephenT's Avatar
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      Kingofclutch, I've just read this whole argument, and you're an idiot.

      I don't understand how you haven't given up on him, 27. You have much more patience than I.

    11. #36
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      Quote Originally Posted by kingofclutch View Post
      Ok then it wasn't a 'lie' but it was untrue and he is not very smart. Do you agree with me that he isn't very smart then?

      How is he not smart? he told his expierience, if it's real or not is another story, and only he knows.

    12. #37
      Always there just in time kingofclutch's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Stephent91 View Post


      Kingofclutch, I've just read this whole argument, and you're an idiot.

      I don't understand how you haven't given up on him, 27. You have much more patience than I.
      Wow, how am I an idiot? Have you read this 27 guy's arguments? It started with him saying how I shouldn't be in this forum because I don't believe a person can just go into another person's dreams and do stuff. Then he says, "I'm not saying I believe in this stuff," which implies that he doesn't believe in it. Then he gets angry because I called him a hypocrite. Then he says that I called anyone who believes in this stuff a liar, which is not true, I said anyone who says they can do it is a liar. Then he goes back to being angry because I called him a hypocrite. Then he makes up a story that would never happen and uses that as an example to say that not ALL people who say they can go into other people's dreams are liars. Now tell me how am I the idiot?

    13. #38
      Revd Sir Stephen, Ph.D StephenT's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by kingofclutch View Post
      Wow, how am I an idiot? Have you read this 27 guy's arguments? It started with him saying how I shouldn't be in this forum because I don't believe a person can just go into another person's dreams and do stuff. Then he says, "I'm not saying I believe in this stuff," which implies that he doesn't believe in it. Then he gets angry because I called him a hypocrite. Then he says that I called anyone who believes in this stuff a liar, which is not true, I said anyone who says they can do it is a liar. Then he goes back to being angry because I called him a hypocrite. Then he makes up a story that would never happen and uses that as an example to say that not ALL people who say they can go into other people's dreams are liars. Now tell me how am I the idiot?
      He merely told you that you shouldn't be in here if all you're going to do is negate other's beliefs. Even if he doesn't believe in it, he can still be in here, as long as he isn't an arrogant ass to other people. The reason that this forum is generally for people who believe in it is because others would come in here and bash everybody because they viewed something as ridiculous.

      I have read his replies, and they have all been relatively reasonable. I've also read yours, which you seem to forget about, as they provide many more erroneous arguments for you to rave about.

      As he said, "I'm not going to say I believe in it," doesn't mean that he doesn't believe in it. Although, it is likely that this could imply that he doesn't, it could also mean that he is taking a neutral stance for the benefit of the current argument, which is whether or not you should post in here. You put words in his mouth and assumed.

      Of course he should get angry when you wrongly accuse him of being a hypocrite. As explained above, he clearly wasn't a hypocrite. You, however, succeeded in being a hypocrite on the subject of hypocrisy by calling him a hypocrite, while you were the one that has been getting angry, assuming, and claiming false interpretations. You are now the hypocrite.

      As for him claiming that you said that these people are liars, and for my "claiming false interpretations", here is your original post.

      Quote Originally Posted by kingofclutch View Post
      I don't know if I understand what you are asking but I'll give it my best shot. If you mean going into someone else's dreams that lives in RL(real life) then no it is impossible. Some claim to be able to go into other people's dreams but they are liars.
      As you can see, you clearly stated that you believe that anybody who claims to have the ability to dream walk is a liar. You say that you don't call all believers liars. What would they have to lie about if they only believed, but hadn't the experience? They could lie about believing, which would be a worthless thing to lie about. You are also ready to conceive that believers are not liars, while those who claim to experience are. If this is the case, then you are highly illogical in you means of interpreting illogicalities. Belief is nothing if there are no results, which would be dream walking. If somebody was a believer in dream walking, then they would believe that it is possible, which is just as illogical, from your viewpoint, as claiming to have the ability. Otherwise, it would only be acknowledgment that it could be possible because it hasn't yet been scientifically rebutted. By calling those who claim to dream walk, you indirectly claim that believers are believing in a falsity, which means that you believe that they are also false.

      The situation that 27 gave could very easily happen. From external stimuli, if two people are near each other, they could incubate the same dream from an occurrence that they both experienced. If this happened, then they could have very similar dreams, which could result in confusion. Then, they really could believe that they had a shared dream, which would not be lying, but misconception. You failed to make this connection, because you treaded on the specifics of the example.

      This, sir, is how you are an idiot.

    14. #39
      Call me Dw Dreamworld's Avatar
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      It is theoritcally possible. But you would have to be sleeping very close to the person, and think EXACTLY the same king of energy. Hopefully your brains electricity fields would interact and voila. Also to the above posters nothing is 100% in logical argument..

    15. #40
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      Thanks, Stephent. You summed up my thoughts perfectly. Kingofcluch, let's try this again.

      Quote Originally Posted by kingofclutch View Post
      Wow, how am I an idiot? Have you read this 27 guy's arguments? It started with him saying how I shouldn't be in this forum because I don't believe a person can just go into another person's dreams and do stuff.
      Read my first post. I was only quoting the staff. Someone said that this forum was only for those who believe in these kinds of topics. You argued that it wasn't. I think I proved that this forum was in fact created for those who believe in these kinds of topics. I thought you gave up your argument a few posts ago. Wasn't I right?

      Quote Originally Posted by kingofclutch View Post
      Then he says, "I'm not saying I believe in this stuff," which implies that he doesn't believe in it.
      That's your opinion. You assumed that I didn't believe in it, when I never stated whether or not I believed in it.

      Quote Originally Posted by kingofclutch View Post
      Then he gets angry because I called him a hypocrite.
      Again, I don't believe there's anything you can say to actually make me angry. I was, however, getting tired of you slinging insults at anyone that disagreed with you.

      Quote Originally Posted by kingofclutch View Post
      Then he says that I called anyone who believes in this stuff a liar, which is not true, I said anyone who says they can do it is a liar.
      Quote me. I never said that. Really, find where I said that and post it. I understood your argument.

      Quote Originally Posted by kingofclutch View Post
      Then he goes back to being angry because I called him a hypocrite.
      Again, I was never angry. That's where I started to tear down you're entire argument because it was the easiest place to start. And I did get you to admit you were wrong to accuse me of hypocracy didn't I?

      Quote Originally Posted by kingofclutch View Post
      Then he makes up a story that would never happen and uses that as an example to say that not ALL people who say they can go into other people's dreams are liars. Now tell me how am I the idiot?
      It seems very plausible to me. Do you really think that has never happened before? Ever? No two people have ever had a similar dream and came to the conclusion that they may have shared a dream? I'm sorry but I fail to see what's so impossible about that scenario. But you do admit that someone who claims to have shared a dream is not necessarily a liar, that's good.

      Now how about responding to my last post? Does believing in shared dreaming necessarily mean that someone is not smart?

    16. #41
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dreamworld View Post
      It is theoritcally possible. But you would have to be sleeping very close to the person, and think EXACTLY the same king of energy. Hopefully your brains electricity fields would interact and voila. Also to the above posters nothing is 100% in logical argument..
      Certainly. Implying that we know all there is to know about brains, perception, conscience links, which indeed is not the case, little is know even about the way conscience is linked to the brain, little is know about what really is going on in sleep.

      I rather prefer not to exclude the possibility of dream sharing and 'long' distance interaction. It would be a shame to miss such a possibility.

      We need to keep an eye on all our fears so that they don't become the cause of dismissing probable facts.

      Lets Fly!
      RC NOW!
      "there are innumerable realms in the unseen world, some of them far more dangerous than the worst jungles of the visible world." - William Chittick, The Sufi Path of Knowledge, [1989]

    17. #42
      Always there just in time kingofclutch's Avatar
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      You guys remind me of scientologists getting angry at people who don't believe in it. Don't tell me you guys believe in scientology too. Do you?

    18. #43
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      Kingofclutch, REPLY TO MY POST.

    19. #44
      Always there just in time kingofclutch's Avatar
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      I believe if you believe in it for fun like that would be cool if it was real then you could be smart, but if you really believe in it and are sure it is real then yes I believe you aren't smart in that regard.

    20. #45
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      Again, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, one of the greatest authors in the history of literature and the true mind of Sherlock Holmes had a very real belief in all kinds of spiritualistic and paranormal topics. I'm sure I can find many examples of brilliant people who believe in paranormal stuff like shared dreaming. It doesn't make them stupid.

      Now respond to that and the rest of my post (#40).

    21. #46
      Always there just in time kingofclutch's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by 27 View Post
      Thanks, Stephent. You summed up my thoughts perfectly. Kingofcluch, let's try this again.



      Read my first post. I was only quoting the staff. Someone said that this forum was only for those who believe in these kinds of topics. You argued that it wasn't. I think I proved that this forum was in fact created for those who believe in these kinds of topics. I thought you gave up your argument a few posts ago. Wasn't I right?

      Yes you are right that this forum is for people who believe in that. Answer this. Didn't you imply that you don't believe in it?

      Again, I was never angry. That's where I started to tear down you're entire argument because it was the easiest place to start. And I did get you to admit you were wrong to accuse me of hypocracy didn't I?


      It seems very plausible to me. Do you really think that has never happened before? Ever? No two people have ever had a similar dream and came to the conclusion that they may have shared a dream? I'm sorry but I fail to see what's so impossible about that scenario. But you do admit that someone who claims to have shared a dream is not necessarily a liar, that's good.

      Yes you are right that this forum is for people who believe in that. I already told you that. Answer this. Didn't you imply that you don't believe in it?

      No, I never admitted I was wrong. I said I was sorry that you got sad from me calling you a hypocrite.

      It may have happened a few times but I think the two kids should be able to figure out they are wrong when they said they can go into other people's dreams.

    22. #47
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      Quote Originally Posted by kingofclutch View Post
      Yes you are right that this forum is for people who believe in that. I already told you that. Answer this. Didn't you imply that you don't believe in it?
      No! For God's sake, how many times do I have to say it? I said "I'm not saying I believe in this stuff" does not mean "I don't believe in this stuff". Like Stephent was saying, I was taking a neutral stance for the benefit of the current argument.

      Quote Originally Posted by kingofclutch View Post
      No, I never admitted I was wrong. I said I was sorry that you got sad from me calling you a hypocrite.
      I'm not sad. But you were wrong to call me such, whether you'll admit it or not.

      Quote Originally Posted by kingofclutch View Post
      It may have happened a few times but I think the two kids should be able to figure out they are wrong when they said they can go into other people's dreams.
      But it dosn't mean they're lieing or stupid does it?

      Now you responded to 3 of my 6 points in that post, want to respond to the rest along with this and my last post (#45 and #47)?

    23. #48
      Always there just in time kingofclutch's Avatar
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      I only responded to those because those were the only questions.

    24. #49
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      <span class='glow_9400D3'>LucidDreamGod</span>'s Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by kingofclutch View Post
      I believe if you believe in it for fun like that would be cool if it was real then you could be smart, but if you really believe in it and are sure it is real then yes I believe you aren't smart in that regard.
      Who are we to say, the purpose of this board is for those who want to talk about the inner workings of it, not reather it might be real or not, I think that is reserved for the spirituality/religious forums.



      I wanna be the very best
      Like no one ever was
      To lucid dream is my real test
      To control them is my cause


    25. #50
      Always there just in time kingofclutch's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by LucidDreamGod View Post
      Who are we to say, the purpose of this board is for those who want to talk about the inner workings of it, not reather it might be real or not, I think that is reserved for the spirituality/religious forums.
      Yes I know I wouldn't have wrote that stuff if 27 hadn't repeatedly asked me the question. It is only my opinion.

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