Thread: How to Prove Shared Dreaming Scientifically

Interesting. How about restrict communication between the two parties for a certain period of time, and then tell the password to one of the subjects, and ask him to deliver it to the other person in a shared dream? Might be cool if someone was locked hopelessly in a room and the password for it was known to someone outside the room, and there were no means of communication.
Or perhaps pre-arranged eye signals given at the same time would be a better idea?

Originally Posted by lucidmax15895

Interesting. How about restrict communication between the two parties for a certain period of time, and then tell the password to one of the subjects, and ask him to deliver it to the other person in a shared dream? Might be cool if someone was locked hopelessly in a room and the password for it was known to someone outside the room, and there were no means of communication.
Or perhaps pre-arranged eye signals given at the same time would be a better idea?

There are four possibilities in regards to shared dreaming:

1) We have the same account. But, there are, oh, about 15 or 20 people that have shared dreams on DV in the shared dream journal. The fact that we have different accounts has been verified by the staff. Some of the people who have shared dreams are on staff: Walms, Man of Shred, and Loaf. Maybe Aquanina also. I can't remember. So, that nixes that possibility.

2) It's pure coincidence. When you read the shared dream journal you will see that the probability of us having these extremely detailed similar dreams by coincidence is virtually nil. That is why exchanging passwords are pointless.

3) We are lying, and somehow colluding with each other to write similar experiences. The key is to isolate the dreamers with third party verification which can only be done in sleep labs.

4) We are telling the truth, and shared dreaming is real.

The point being, whatever kind of information shared is pointless. If people have two extremely similar dreams, write down the dreams without talking about it to each other, it's obviously a shared dream. The only way to eliminate the possibility of us lying is to put us in sleep labs.

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

There are four possibilities in regards to shared dreaming:

1) We have the same account. But, there are, oh, about 15 or 20 people that have shared dreams on DV in the shared dream journal. The fact that we have different accounts has been verified by the staff. Some of the people who have shared dreams are on staff: Walms, Man of Shred, and Loaf. Maybe Aquanina also. I can't remember. So, that nixes that possibility.

This won't have any effect in a lab obviously.

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

2) It's pure coincidence. When you read the shared dream journal you will see that the probability of us having these extremely detailed similar dreams by coincidence is virtually nil. That is why exchanging passwords are pointless.

Granted that coincidence may be close to nil. But scientists are extremely skeptic. If humans are failable and there may be other factors that have happened. They go on repetition, making sure the experiment comes out true each time. The slightest difference in the journals may make a difference for them. Multiple people for hundreds of times would have to do this consistently right on for them to take it as a fact.

Of course this is assuming you are trying to prove shared dreaming for good and be taken as a fact, not if you just want some evidence to show your friends etc.

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

3) We are lying, and somehow colluding with each other to write similar experiences. The key is to isolate the dreamers with third party verification which can only be done in sleep labs.

Assuming the experiment would be conducted properly.

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

4) We are telling the truth, and shared dreaming is real.

This is also possible but for this to be taken as a fact would be EXTREMELY difficult (See 2)

So all I'm saying here is "Scientifically proving" shared dreaming is/has/will be no easy task

Multiple people for hundreds of times would have to do this consistently right on for them to take it as a fact.

So if it happened in a lab fifty times between multiple pairs of random individuals who have never met except in shared dreams, you think scientists would still think it was a fluke that hasn't been properly been tested? Just one recorded instance free from the possibility of lying/ collusion would be enough to determine the existence of this phenomenon. You can rest assured that if it really happens once, between two non-biased participants who have never met, then it probably happens a lot more between two people who share strong enough bonds and practice regularly.

Originally Posted by GameChef

This won't have any effect in a lab obviously.


Granted that coincidence may be close to nil. But scientists are extremely skeptic. If humans are failable and there may be other factors that have happened. They go on repetition, making sure the experiment comes out true each time. The slightest difference in the journals may make a difference for them. Multiple people for hundreds of times would have to do this consistently right on for them to take it as a fact.

Of course this is assuming you are trying to prove shared dreaming for good and be taken as a fact, not if you just want some evidence to show your friends etc.


Assuming the experiment would be conducted properly.



This is also possible but for this to be taken as a fact would be EXTREMELY difficult (See 2)

So all I'm saying here is "Scientifically proving" shared dreaming is/has/will be no easy task

Read Entangled Minds by Dean Radin.

yeah, I see how difficult it is. I still think that pre-arranged eye signals even if you have to be in a lab for a couple of days, could be promising. But it would be hard to find experienced shared lucid dreamers AND get them to be tested in a freakin' lab.
Or how about a big meetup, with all the DV members gathered at the moon or the beach? If a large enough number claims that shared dreaming is real, then they HAVE to believe it. Same thing as it was with dreams before REM monitoring was invented. No one could really prove that people had dreams, but since a large number did, they considered it real.

I agree with you Max, but still think there is a large possibility that those claiming dream sharing will be lumped into a category with high school kids who pretend to have supernatural powers after watching the new 'Twilight' movie. We would have to test pairs of individuals, who had never met, in a lab. The individuals would be given pictures of the other, also maybe soundless video of the other interacting with people and vocal recording. This would rule out any possibility that the two had colluded to deceive the scientists and ruin the empirical data by sending some sort of message to the other, while giving them some way to recognize the other.

The dreams themselves only have to be the same in places. If the dream lasted 20 minutes, but in the midst of things the two sat down and shared pudding then viola, the two shared a moments dreaming. This would have to be tested farther than a longer and stronger dream share, because it will invariably be conceived as coincidence by the scientific community until the results were reproduced regularly. However, if the the details of the dreams were the same in more ways than they were different then this could not be chalked up to coincidence in my opinion. How many coincidences have to occur for someone to stop labeling them as coincidence?

For instance, If the two woke up in some place both claim never to have been watching the sunrise together on a park bench (but describe SLIGHTLY different scenes) when one offers the other pudding before the dreams begin to differ; Could one say this was a coincidence? Could one chalk it up to some genius level collusion to defraud the scientific process?

I don't think so. We COULD do the method of restricting contact and THEN share some information. I mean, if it was made ABSOLUTELY sure that the two DID NOT communicate, with 24 hour CCTV monitoring, who is to say that they have exchanged information. Then I think that it could be a success.

Oh yeah, throw in a couple of fatal laser beams, too.

If there is any contact between the two it would have to be supervised closely. The two could not have known each other before the event either. The less chances of collusion the better for our purposes.

...aaaand lasers

Give one person a set of eye movements to make, &, while dreaming, have them tell the other person to repeat it EXACTLY as they see it . If this is successful time after time, it's proven. Of course they wouldn't be allowed contact w/ the other. I personally don't believe this because I haven't done it

Originally Posted by monkeyking

So if it happened in a lab fifty times between multiple pairs of random individuals who have never met except in shared dreams, you think scientists would still think it was a fluke that hasn't been properly been tested? Just one recorded instance free from the possibility of lying/ collusion would be enough to determine the existence of this phenomenon.

Enough for who? For the scientific community? Hardly. Unfortunately, it will be a very long time before the scientific community would accept that something such as shared dreaming exists. Sure some labs might discover reason to believe that the phenomena is real and publish their research. But it would get ripped apart by their peers in the scientific community and the credibility of the experiments and the scientists involved in them will be completely destroyed and dragged through the mud by skeptics. Most scientists won't step over that line for fear of ridicule and losing their job, but also...there's really no money in these types of experiments. That's why I have so much respect for Dean Radin and others like him, who are willing to accept the social stigma attached to this sort of work. It takes real strength of character to stay true to your work even when you are being ridiculed by the majority of the scientific community, as well as great ambition to continue even when there is simply no money.

But anyways, none of us can really "prove" that dream sharing exists. Really, all we can do is collect data. If we were at a sleep lab under controlled conditions, that's all they would be able to do as well. Collect data. Truly, an enormous amount of data suggesting that shared dreaming is possible (and can be reproduced in a lab) must be compiled before any serious scientific research (the sort that the scientific community would have to accept) would even be considered. So it is a very long, slow road ahead.

There is another alternative though...if anyone got good enough at it they could contact Randi and try to set something up for his million dollar challenge. The problem with that though...is that I've read numerous places that his contest is a sham and those who enter are completely set up to fail.

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

Read Entangled Minds by Dean Radin.

You misunderstand me. I am not saying that shared dreaming does not exist, simply that you will be hard pressed to prove it scientifically.

Originally Posted by Aquanina

Enough for who? For the scientific community? Hardly. Unfortunately, it will be a very long time before the scientific community would accept that something such as shared dreaming exists. Sure some labs might discover reason to believe that the phenomena is real and publish their research. But it would get ripped apart by their peers in the scientific community and the credibility of the experiments and the scientists involved in them will be completely destroyed and dragged through the mud by skeptics. Most scientists won't step over that line for fear of ridicule and losing their job, but also...there's really no money in these types of experiments. That's why I have so much respect for Dean Radin and others like him, who are willing to accept the social stigma attached to this sort of work. It takes real strength of character to stay true to your work even when you are being ridiculed by the majority of the scientific community, as well as great ambition to continue even when there is simply no money.

But anyways, none of us can really "prove" that dream sharing exists. Really, all we can do is collect data. If we were at a sleep lab under controlled conditions, that's all they would be able to do as well. Collect data. Truly, an enormous amount of data suggesting that shared dreaming is possible (and can be reproduced in a lab) must be compiled before any serious scientific research (the sort that the scientific community would have to accept) would even be considered. So it is a very long, slow road ahead.

There is another alternative though...if anyone got good enough at it they could contact Randi and try to set something up for his million dollar challenge. The problem with that though...is that I've read numerous places that his contest is a sham and those who enter are completely set up to fail.

Exactly. It's not an easy task. Also, I don't think that there are quite enough experienced shared dreamers to justify the point simultaneously. Take DV for example. How many dream sharers do we have? I did unintentionally share a dream with one of my relatives, but that's about it.
Furthermore, it is not within the power of present science to describe how two people far apart in the world can have the same visions in their minds? Science, in my opinion, has clogged up the minds of people towards the more spiritual side. Something like shared dreaming and the like is too far to be proven by mere science. Science still has a long way to go.
I think the new dream recording technology might have some promise though. In a couple of years or so, it might be possible to record the dreams one experiences, so why not fit that device on two heads and use it to prove shared dreaming.
The point? We still can not very effectively prove shared dreaming scientifically given our present resources.

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

This will require the dreamers to be monitored in sleep labs. They will not be allowed any contact with each other between the time they fall asleep, and the time they write in their dream journals. Then, they dream journals will be compared.

This is the only way to prove shared dreaming.

There are very few sleep labs in the world. I think three in the US, and one in Canada, as far as North America goes.

I have made every possible effort to contact scientists that study sleep and dreams.

***

If you have any other ideas how to prove shared dreaming scientifically, please suggest your ideas.

Anything like sharing passwords would not work, because we would not have third party verification to prove the dreamers are not communicating while awake.

I created this thread to clear up the post-clutter from the Shared Dreaming Tutorial. I created that thread to teach people how to share dreams, not to discuss the scientific experiments.

Looking forward to the discussion.

I can see how that would prove it scientifically, however my interest is a personal one. My question is for my own interest and validation and is directed for you and or any other person that can share dreams. While your answer wont prove it scientifically I am curious, has anyone here successfully shared concrete information with one another such as phone numbers, passwords, real names or the like via dream sharing?

Wait, anybody thought about sharing a password and then claiming in the presence of a lie detector that you didn't communicate before? lie detectors, the advanced type, can really help, y'know.

But do shared dreams actually require some form of interaction? Communication between the two needs to be restricted, sure, but to what extent?

Originally Posted by Samael

But do shared dreams actually require some form of interaction? Communication between the two needs to be restricted, sure, but to what extent?

I would imagine to the extent where they wouldn't be able to reveal the password, or eye signals or whatever else with one another....

Exactly. If I can interact with the other then I could just tell them what they're supposed to experience and we could both lie. Or we would color each others subconscious minds enough that we would dream approximations of what was discussed. This would be akin to having a non-lucid dream about being lucid.
Another problem lay in the fact that it may take some sort of connection with the other. To address this issue I thought that maybe there could be a different groups:

Group one would have intimate knowledge of each other through supervised sessions. These would be able to interact as much as they please, but not discuss dreaming, thus eliminating overt collusion. This group would be able, in theory, to come up with some sort of sneaky cheat, but with strict supervision it could be greatly discouraged.

Group two would be able to interact only with a medium/mediums of the person they are to attempt sharing with. Maybe photos, video, and recordings of speech. I think the video recordings might have to be sans audio and the audio recordings of some predetermined questionnaire that all of the participants are made to fill out.

Group three would be given no contact with any of the participants, only take part by filling out a dream journal to be checked against all participant's DJ's for similarities.

The only time I'm sure of having shared a dream was with my sister, who was living quite a distance from me at the time. It had been awhile since we had interacted more than over the phone, and neither of us was actively practicing, although we have both recorded LD's since we were young. For that reason I believe that, although contact may make for more consistent dream sharing, it may not be necessary for DS to occur.

How many dream sharers do we have? I did unintentionally share a dream with one of my relatives, but that's about it.

Just realized we had that in common after I typed in the above post. I think that's pretty cool max

Originally Posted by monkeyking

Just realized we had that in common after I typed in the above post. I think that's pretty cool max

^_^

did I mention that I was lucid and my relative was not? He is a VERY annoying little brat that irritates the shit out of ya. So in the dream, I took my revenge and, uh, did some stuff to him. He reported it to his mother as a nightmare, which came up later during a discussion. I didn't think in the dream that he would ACTUALLY see it, but what the heck.
Just for the record, he had a super scary zombie with super powerful supernatural powers chasing him all around Australia.

Ah, not many experiments posted, uh? Also, there is a big flaw on the experiment on the first post, since people will be at the start in a lab, there is high changes they will dream about the lab, and thus, the chance of both dreamers dreaming about that is, incredibly high.
Another flaw, if you assume that a lab will show a shared dream as it will a normal dream, it will fail, because if shared dreams are real, then it is an unexplored thing and thus we can't make assumptions out of it.

Anyway, I was thinking, first, collect a bunch of people with really good recall, we don't really need many LDers for this, only people with good recall, who cares where they are from, then put them in a test to see if they aren't lying about the recall.

Take the people that aren't lying, then put them to record their dreams. Have another team of Lucid Dreamers who will try to share dreams with the random people, then journal too, the LD people can't meet the other team, do their journals match? Whats the frequency? Is there a constant frequency?

If yes to all the questions above, continue to next step, if not, repeat over.

Next step, make them have their REM movements saved as data, do their shared dream journals match with the REM movement? Yes, we can conclude that they were dreaming about something really similar, or shared a dream. No? Get them to a brain-activity reading machine.

Knowing that both remember the dream, a SD should affect the brain activity (We can't say for sure it affects REM sleep, which is why it isn't something to repeat the experiment over), do their activity match? Yes, same conclusion as above, no, repeat.

Incredibly condensed form, but the point is to get to know what people you do sync with, because, if somehow SD is related to people having something in common, what if you choose the wrong person? We need a broad number of examples to try on, and do a lot of maths to know when to proceed from journals only, to REM data saving. Note that this would only say it is more provable than not, just as it right now is less provable than yes.

Originally Posted by lucidmax15895

If a large enough number claims that shared dreaming is real, then they HAVE to believe it.

Umm... No. If I go on, I'll either end up on a rant about religion or a 1984-esque rant, but... no.