Psionik

Wow, 5 is alot. You are experienced. It must have been sweet to sight see in outer space and to go in the blackhole. I'm not sure if our star dreams are connected but your experience seems interesting too. Makes me feel like summoning a shooting star in a lucid.

I had a few of such OBE and LD where I flew in space... My brother inspired me to try that.

Oh, that's cool. Hes a lucid dreamer too? No one in my family really lucid dreams anymore

Hmmm, I taught him to do OBE. But... I don't know. Things he use to do are different than what I do. Many times I have feeling that he describes LD even if he is suggesting doing OBE. I mean... he likes to throw trees from earth atmosphere by hand in his experiences... I could be destructive too while in astral, but to be unattached observer means much more stable and more real felt OBE.
I provided some advice how to do LD and OBE to my 11 years old daughter because she wanted that... she has some LDs... No OBE yet. She needs to overcome fear.

Hehe I've never heard of people throwing trees in OBE but like you said a official OBE would be stable if you are actually doing it. I was frightened of OBE too when I was younger but I think its great that your willing to teach her about it. ^w^

I too was scared... for about 5 minutes (well I was about 12 years old), then I went back trying to do that again immediately This was my first OBE:
As I was moving deeper and deeper in relaxation of body, concentrated on being "here and now", I lost feeling of my body. I progressed deeper and deeper in relaxation, staying in equilibrium of emotions, no thoughts, only attention on what I was doing remained. Then I felt pull and I was suddenly floating outside of my body, maybe 1m away from it. I had 360 degrees angle of view. And I saw myself from outside too. I was slightly glowing dark ball of energy (plasma); black colored with dark blue-violet faint glow and with brighter protuberances of light here and there. I stayed in this position maybe 10 seconds, then realization comes to me- I'm dead! Sudden fear brought me immediately back into my body. I was so scared; I couldn’t move and I thought that it is the end. My heart was pounding veeeery slowly, and I didn't feel need to breath. It took me maybe 5 minutes to come back to full normal body functions and awareness... but during that time my fear ceased. I realized that I had not felt any pain, that it was very peaceful out of body... I came to realization, that I don't care whether my body is dead and that I wanted to go back (i.e. out of body).
I needed to find method how to repeat the feat... and it took me years to do it consciously. Before that I had spontaneous OBEs when I had strong asthma and was slowly choking to death, and I remember once when I had very high fewer... But there was no fear in those two occurrences... it was more like relief.

Thanks for telling me about your first experience. Its great that you overcame it quickly.I use to have asthma as a child because of where we lived but it stopped thankfully. To be slowly choking to death is horrible but I'm glad you turned out okay. I can see that you enjoy obe a lot. ^w^ My most vivid experiences felt heavy and hard to look around.

I was very logical as long as I remember... Therefore I saw fast that what I experienced was something essential...
When I broke my leg on bicycle when I was 5 years old... It was nasty spiral break of thigh bone I didn't stress... I took bicycle, and I was hopped on second leg back to my grandmother- I lay down on bed and waited for help... I was sent to hospital and I was there for 2 weeks without relatives(they were visiting me). I had often RTGs as they controlled whether the bone heals in right way. And after that I had to have the cast for more than 2 months. I remember that quite sharply... The only thing I could do was sleep or lie down. To draw, to play with small cars or teddy bear, or cubes... It was very boring part of my life. I broke the same leg second time a year later close to ankle- that was simple break, but again it meant 2 months of being nearly immobile.
I remember the frustration when I wasn't able to stand up when I was about 1 year old, frustration with language, when I wasn't able to speak myself out in sensible manner... When I wasn't able to go out of cot(because of wooden fence around it). And many other tings from my childhood... But the consciousness I remember to feel was the same as now. It may be because of continuity But it makes one think about things other than purely material.

As for that asthma: I remember the choking part to be neutral. It was gradual, not fast process. I was not scared, I was so weak... and passive. I had no energy to do anything but passively observe, there was no pain... the world was losing colors, sharpness, sight was becoming grayish and tunnel like... I was tired... It took one injection of antihistamine and I was OK in about minute.
It was long ago... physicians weren't used to this kind of illness... My school physician thought I caught a cold since I had slightly higher body temperature and strong case of runny nose. She had prescribed aspirin for that! It took week of me getting worse and worse for my father to lose his nerves and he brought me to his friend who was quite good physician.

I had asthma a for a few years every spring, but it was weaker and weaker because of desensitization. I don't need medicine for about 20 years now... only Vibrocil decongestant against runny nose and even that only sparsely.

My most vivid experiences felt heavy and hard to look around. Sorry, my English is not good enough to find satisfying meaning of this short sentence... It seems to have some important meaning, can you write more about this?

Wow, did that bicycle have training wheels? D: Sorry you had to go through that at such a young age. It sounds frustrating just reading it. Did you obe when you slept? Also, how you recall something from 1 year old is beyond me. I recall nothing from that age and no one ive met can remember something from than either. By conciousness continuity do you mean like a part of you stays with you? Makes me think of how some people change completely and forget about their childhood. I agree, purely material things shouldn't be our main focus in life.

The way you describe your asthma incident reminds me of the time I got dizzy. Even when my grandma called me i didn't respond and just let whatever happened happen. Its crazy how a school nurse didn't know what was wrong with you. To be honest I didn't see them as reliable but who knows, there are probably a few reliable nurses out there. However, im glad you turned out okay after your dad took you to a good friend physician.

What I meant by "feeling heavy" is during Vivid OBE I feel stuck in the ground. When its that vivid I can't see my body either so moving around is somewhat difficult. Its okay if your English isn't perfect.I probably didn't write it well

No training wheels, I knew how to drive more than 1 year by that time.
I do OBE directly from waking life., Also 95+% of my LDs are directly from waking life. When I have dream, even strange one, I conclude that things are real and not dreamed off Only very sparsely I found I'm dreaming.
I didn't remember things always... I think relaxation, concentration and meditation exercises helped there. Sometimes I get old memories out... Often they are coupled with emotions and film like action... seeing myself from inside and outside perspective at once. But I have some of those memories confirmed... Obviously not the ones where I'm frustrated that I can't speak I was thinking that I will never learn to do it right. But I saw that on my children later. They knew and felt more than they could express, and there was also that frustration. I wonder how much we adults forget... I felt like old man when I managed deep relaxations and concentrations all those decades back- but I was barely starting puberty... Maybe we aren't young even as children. We only look and behave like ones because of our physical bodies... You know, my 11 years old daughter told me resigned that she starts to feel the puberty, and that she doesn't like her emotional instability... she told that like some old woman who needs to go through something unwanted again.

She wasn't school nurse. She was fully qualified physician. It was socialism here in Slovakia- part of Czechoslovak socialistic republic. Many things were different. Less advanced than in the west. I was called cheater and malingerer because of asthma. And also my experiences with loneliness when I couldn't play with others made me a bit more loner... anti social in eyes of collective which was also dark mark in socialism. Individualism was not preferred nor cherished. And if I mention the army conscription which was compulsory- I wasn't looking ill but asthma was serious hindrance. And army deputies weren't really understanding. Moreover... I'm not sure I would be good soldier I 'm thinking and planning forward too much...

I didn't remember to have such problems when doing OBE. The most is, when I can't fly or if I can move only relatively slowly, otherwise I destabilize the experience. Do you train concentration? Try Schulz autogenic technique. Induction and concentration on heaviness and warmth is enough.

Thats impressive. What do you mean directly from Waking life? Like a WILD? Its cool how you could confirm your childhood memories. It must have took some concentration to bring them up. Oh, so you meant you saw how your children struggled to communicate with you and compared it to how you must have been. What you said about feeling like an adult reminds me of how I felt when I was 13. I saw myself as fully capable of doing many things but than I was told I was still very young. XD Hehe your daughter really said she feels like an old woman? Thats funny. But yeah, girls can get pretty emotional as they grow.

Oh wow. It terrible how you were treated that way because of your Asthma. I hope things are well over there for you now. Being a soldier would probably mean you have less time for family too. If I was a guy, I personally wouldn't want to be one though. Did you want to be one?

Autogenic technique? Ive never heard of it but ill try and see if I can give it a try tonight. Idk if I would though. My recall is lacking and so is my lucid dreaming. I only had a little lucidity last night.

Yes, directly from waking life means just like WILD. The difference is, that for inducing OBE I don't use imagination.When I feel that time is right I either do tests to see whether astral body is loosened or I separate outright out of physical body.
If I'm in right state the separation doesn't need any forcing, but more often I need to force separation by... hmmm... it is something like sending impulses to limbs to move them but at the same time I leave them relaxed. For example first of these 9 or 10 separation was forced. The next ones were not forced since the state of mind was right after first OBE.
No My daughter said it like old (she didn't say that she feels old) woman would do if she had to come through something again. She looked resigned. You know... like if reincarnation was possible(which is unknown of course).

I was a few time on army conscription because I was called. But there was no problem with family, I'm not that old, nor I started my family young. I met first my wife about 5 years after army stopped to try to get me(I got green card) and I had fallen in love with her after other 5 years. That was when I got feeling that I need to stop blocking myself because of unrequited love. I was quite stupid in some ways when I was young. Like block myself for about 13 years on one girl who didn't deserved my attentions.

I wasn't interested to be soldier. Maybe... Maybe I should feel ashamed of that fact, but I felt and feel that it is not right way. I understand the need of protection of loved ones, of country... But not because of politicking of some people. I found later how it was at those times in eastern blocks... I had friend who was serving as tanker. He was lieutenant and he was told of some plans of attack against West Germany and further west. If Moskow decided to do that, all the tank group would move west beyond borders while nuclear attack would be done at the same time. It wasn't meant to be retaliatory. It was meant to be aggression. The lifetime of first tank wave was calculated to be about 3 minutes. There were planed a few waves of tank groups. First groups had to be composed only from allies of soviet union. They were meant to be cannon fodder. Russians with best tanks were meant to be in last groups so they don't suffer as big losses. Any slow tank (which meant that crew tried to survive) was to be shot from behind- that was normal from russian point of view, they did the same during WW2. Bottom line- It was unlikely that something like that would happen if I was conscripted, it was very close to end of regime and after its end. But this was last drop at which I knew that my feeling about army was right. I don't have guts for this kind of violence.

Autogenic training: http://www.welz.us/Autogenic.pdf I found this method in SciFi book written by Vladimir Paral: Valka s mnohozviretem I didn't know that it is real method. But at that time I was fascinated by relaxation and feelings from the body when I did it. So when I found this technique in sci fi book, I tried it. And it functioned immediately. And relaxation was much faster and deeper than I experienced before. There are formulas to induce those feelings... but there is a catch I think- it is written that you have to suggest it to yourself, to mentally verbalize it and imagine expected outcome... I don't use formulas anymore. It was and it is not the right way I think and feel. Use observation, concentration on observation, on the feeling in your body. Don't suggest yourself that your hand is heavier and heavier, that it is so heavy that you can't move it... NO! Rather use only feeling. Feel the heaviness... feel how gravity presses your limb, your whole body into bed, stronger and stronger... you have no will to overcome that strong gravity... you have no strength to overcome it... the whole body is very heavy and heavier with every breath out... when you slowly(but not deeply) inhale the heaviness holds on reached level, when you exhale the heaviness grows to new level... Again exhale naturally, don't force air out. After exhaling leave yourself exhaled for as long as possible(without adverse feelings from your body) when you feel need to inhale then inhale. Breathing is the next thing which helps. My experience tells me that deep inhaling isn't good for relaxation, since it is excessively straining breast muscles. So I inhale for about 5 seconds freely without the feel of strain then I slowly exhale for 5-10 seconds (or longer as time goes) and then I leave myself in exhaled state for 15 and more seconds. At that time the feeling of heaviness confirms itself... At time when you exhale and stay in exhaled state you may feel your hard to pound slowly and strongly- leave it be. Concentrate on the feeling of heaviness.
When you feel heaviness in your body, start to feel the warmth. Remember touching something warm... soaking yourself into bath for example. Use that memory of feeling and feel it again, without mental formulas, without imagination... feel the memory of warmth. feel how it rises like fire up your arm, slowly, together with your relaxed breathing.... let it, like liquid fire flow to other hand, then from the hands down to the legs... and when your limbs are warm let it rise into body, spiraling to the solar plexus.
What this two autosuggestion do is:
1. feeling of heaviness relaxes your striated muscles (skeleton muscles, muscles you can direct consciously)
2. feeling of warmth relaxes your smooth muscles (arterial and venal muscles, muscles of gastrointestinal tract- muscles you can't control directly.)
If you ever feel stressed do this exercises. You don't need to lay down, you can do it to lower levels even standing. There is one thing I must say- these relaxation techniques lead to deep relaxation. If you aren't going to sleep after exercise, you need to cancel this state. I use stretching, and letting the feeling of relaxation go away. It needs some time. I remember to losing consciousness a few times for a short time... and faint, when I didn't do cancelling of the relaxation appropriately.
A little help aid (I found it myself when I was experimenting): do yourself a bath. You need as much water as to soak your body completely. Clean yourself first, then lay into water and relax. For 10-20 minutes should be more than enough. Feel the weightlessness or near weightlessness. Then pull the plug a little so water will flow out of the bath slowly. Relax. the water level will go down very slowly. Your body will lose buoyancy slowly, pressing on the bottom of the bath stronger and stronger. Relax, observe, remember how the whole process feels and relax as last water flows out of bathtub. Relax and feel the heaviness. Try to remember the feeling. Let your consciousness concentrate on every part of your body, to concentrate on feelings... when it starts to be uncomfortable because of hardness of bathtub because of cold air, then slowly sit, stretch your limb, breathe deeply, for a minute, two... hold yourself onto wall and stand slowly. Observe your body- this is for your safety. If you start to feel dizzy, sit down again and stretch and breathe deeply for some time more. Take a shower and you may go away But remember the feeling of heaviness. Repeat this bath exercise for a few times at later times to remember that feeling better and more thoroughly.

Hmm. That could be a problem since I use my imagination quite a bit. It would also kind of scare me if I could obe without going through lucid dream first too. How do you even know when time is right? When you feel sleepy?Nevermind, it must be when your body is relaxed.

Interesting. Did your daughter know about reincarnation when she said that?

Thx for explaining :3 You didn't have to go into it too much but it did help me understand your point of view. Im not a violence person either but the safety of your people is concerning.

Focusing on the heavy feeling and warmth. Sort of reminds me of yoga but different. I will try it out and the bath tub thing when I can. Sounds like an interesting experimentation.

When I use imagination I end in LD... which is very different from OBE. There is like quantum jump between those two experiences, discontinuity. I find very hard to jump over that discontinuity. I had written down only one experience of this kind... and I don't remember any other. It started like normal dream, then I become lucid and then I jumped over and saw beyond the scenery of dream into astral dimension. From dream to astral - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views You would have to overcome similar jump in consciousness to project into higher, more fine and demanding dimension. When I project to other, higher dimensions it is completely random. I don't have control over to which dimension I project. If I'm in compatible state of mind I project out of the body directly to compatible dimension. This is also point where I lose confidence. Just as I see difference between LD and astral dimension I see difference between different dimensions while out of body. But am I really there or I dream that??? I believe. I don't have proof.
When your body is relaxed really deeply you will start to lose feel of your body. At that point, you will have bigger chance to feel your nonphysical body... Lose the feeling of your body and you end in real meditation... all alone in void. Full of peace. With no thought. In timeless existence. In the bliss. Endless free fall. Hard to describe this But I try not to end there if I want to travel out of body, since there is also no will. Once I end in such state, all I do is existence. It can end only by itself alone, I have no control... nor will to control. The whole existence is the meaning of the existence. The whole existence is everything for me then. Its a bliss without emotions... emotions without emotions... I can't describe it better. So, when I want to travel I need to separate before that point. The whole forcing thing is about this- not to fall into that end state. Because even if it is great, it is also not controllable. If I can do something more than only exist then I wouldn't mind it that much. I still feel need of the knowledge.

I feel the right time... call it experience I start to feel my nonphysical body... like glove on my physical one.

She knows about reincarnation from my philosophical speeches at least

That bathtub help is only the aid- to know the feeling of heaviness. Please don't fall asleep in your bath because of my suggestion of this help. It may be dangerous, you know
Schulz had something with yoga... but he made it closer to western people understanding. It is targeted on mind, not the body. But from my experience you may be able to change also some body functions if you are experienced. Like body temperature, helping with digestion problems , with migraine and others.

I guess it might be a matter of practice. Windhover from dreamviews did a lesson video on OBE that I watched at iosdp website. Part of it was how to get from ld to obe and I know it involved focus and another technique I forgot. But I think it had to do with the third eye.

Hehe Yeah, knowing whether it is a place of something more or not is uncertain but as long as your enjoying yourself I think its ok. Im not totally sure how AP people classify dimensions.

I think I understand better how your transition with obe is. Its almost like how you lose the feeling of your physical body when you transition from WL to LD with WILD but the difference is a different mind set and your intent is Astral World. What You Wrote On existence sounded deep and profound but I only understood some of what you wrote. But if it is the void than cant you control it by thinking of something or appearing somewhere else? Im a bit confused, sorry. ^^"

The glove feeling was a good example. Its great how you can talk openly to your kids about philosophical stuff too. I asked if she knew about it because its possible her knowing could influence how she sees herself though. But than again I''ve yet to come across an experience that made me feel I was reincarnated.

Hmm...I might not need to do the bathtub thing since I understand what you mean more now. I probably wouldn't fall asleep but yeah It could be dangerous if I did so ill stick to the bed relaxing.

Changing body functions sounds familiar. Not sure if that stuff actually works but a positive mind set could also be positive for the body mentally and physically.

when I'm in the void I'm unable to change things, I can't think... or plan. I contemplated about that state... and I'm curious if that isn't something like NIRVANA. I don't feel that it s right to end up in such state for all eternity, even if I like it very much... for short time it is OK. It is against what I believe is the right way of existence whether now when I'm bound to physical world or after death- if there is existence after death. I don't feel it right to have been presented or work toward intelligence, consciousness etc, only to let myself lose into eternal bliss without any further interactions... it is like nonexistence... the existence without any goal, without possibility of betterment or refinement, the forever stagnation... I don't want to fall into such kind of trap. Maybe I see it wrong way... I'm working on this only for 3/4 of my life only after all

classification is done with help of feeling That way is "totally scientific " But really- the state of consciousness is fundamentally different between those dimensions.

It is of no problem to talk to them, or my wife, or some friends. They may be skeptic, but so am I. Having experimented with those things, I think I'm better off then someone who only believes. Skepticism provides needed grounding- I don't want to start to believe all things I found blindly. There are after all no 100% reliable physical proofs.
I'm not sure whether she knew only because she heard it from me, or she experienced something. But I think that she had some spontaneous LD and she liked the flying thing. And therefore she asked for a way to induce LD by will.

Changing some body functions goes through autosuggestion. Think if it- if you have some small wound and you could make veins tighter because you know how to influence muscles, then you ca stop bleeding by will... this is extreme example- I don't know how to do this yet. But I can stop migraine for example. All what is needed is to relax muscles on surface of skull. Or when I get digestion problems I can relax smooth muscles of gastrointestinal system, so problems are not so unpleasant and long lasting... Or you can control your emotions- if you feel depressed for example you can stop to feel it.

You can't think? Now I'm curious to know what type of void it is. I don't think I've been in one where I couldn't think. I wonder why it is appealing if there is just peace but I understand what your saying for the most part. I don't see why anyone would want to be there forever either.

Hehe I see. But how does the state of consciousness differ? Im asking you too many questions though. Sorry, ill just research a bit more on it.

Yeah, experimenting and figuring it out for yourself is a lot better than believing blindly.oh okay. Its cool how she has someone to teach her to LD too. I wish someone in my family was into it but they don't really do it. Maybe rarely.

^^"Hmm...I can see how it could possibly work but not sure about the bleeding or if you have clinical depression. Maybe if it was minor.

It is just like you can't think in meditation. You are concentrated on existence, on being here and now... it is like to be focused on nothing. There are no thoughts. There is only strong recognition of being, of existence. Every is OK, everything is clear... but there is no will to do anything. Nor there is a need. Imagine the strongest bliss you can experience. Yet that bliss is not emotional. It is bliss of being free of everything, there is no worry, no want or need. Imagine completely blank mind sharply aware of its existence. You have memories, but those memories aren't disturbing anything in that state.
The problem is, that I would want to remain in that state infinitely. It is only that, that when I'm able to think at least through feelings, Only then I'm able to formulate a goal... to learn something, or to help with something either myself or someone there (like I can do on lower planes like budhic, mental and astral dimension... or maybe I'm not advanced enough )
State of consciousness differs markedly I tried to describe that a few times... like in comments here : Calling your name- Shared dream attempt - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views Those descriptions are weak. One needs to experience that to see difference. Moreover, my consciousness as of now is unable to comprehend its own state when doing OBE to higher planes. For example I say that O don't use thinking in astral dimension, instead I use feelings. Trying to think has detrimental influence on stability of OBE, at least for me. I can use something similar in waking life. But it is only similar. It is hard to describe. In higher dimensions it is even more different.

I can provide only advice, and those are functioning for me, because I have experience. My brother was able to learn how to leave his body directly like myself after about 1 year. I provided him with suggestions how to do it. It was enough since he tried to follow them. My daughter doesn't have that kind of drive in her. She likes to be lucid, but I don't see her exercising often. And I feel she is worried to do OBE, she wants LD primarily.

Minor bleeding is easy. I can't do major one(nor I ad such). And depressions- I had pretty strong ones when I was in puberty. Such as not wanting to eat, wanting to die and to have a peace and so on... I managed to battle that through autogenic training, and I did it often because suggestions functioned a few hours after the training... and they needed to be renewed often. I have depressions from time to time, but even if I feel them I can function... I study those feelings clinically... and stand as far from them as possible metaphorically speaking. It is easy to dissolve those feelings through acceptation. It wasn't so easy when I was young. maybe I wasn't so well trained at that time, maybe I learned during those decades more how to deal with that. Hard to say. I just concentrate on the feeling and let it go.

Alright. So Its like a mental state of peace without letting passing thoughts/memories effect you and therefore you formulate goals on lower planes. Also...thinking distracts you during obe or destabilizes it.

Nice that you were able to guide them with your experience. Everyone isn't the same so its to be expected if they like to do different things when it comes to dreaming.

Reminds me of my past battle with depression. It is probably that you found ways to deal with it while learning how to change your focus whenever it came up.Either way its good it isn't as strong as it was before.

hmmm.... maybe, I didn't thought about this in such way... But I think, tat ability to do something is something we should cherish, not wrong way of course. Therefore, from this point of view, I don't like that state from other states of mind... even if it is pure bliss. if you understand what I mean.

Yes, thinking in classical form isn't good for OBE. At least for such OBE as I do.

I don't want to take any medicine for that, even if I feel bad. I don't want to have my mind clouded, I don't like it.