How many Christians are on this site?

[Amethyst Star]

Now, I'm not looking for debate or your life story. I'm just curious how many Christians are interested in LDing. You can share your life story if you want, but this is just more out of curiosity than anything else... and to see how many people visit the Philosophy Forum.

-Amé

[MrGone]

This is an interesting topic. I myself am not a Christian, but have nothing against you guys. :wink:

[Hate]

I'm a bit surprised that I'm the only Christian out of 6 first posters. I thought almost all the users of this forum are Americans, and I thought almost all Americans are Catholic or other Christians.

Anyway, I'm not really too religious so don't make immediate conclusions.

[Rakkantekimusouka]

Actually, by the records, I was officially Roman Catholic until February 16th -- when I officially converted to Judaism. Spritually, I will always be a Seer, however.

[Oath]

i dont claim any religion and i think they are all like "racist" against each other and stuff. people always try to put labels on me though calling me this and that and it really pisses me off!#%$@ i do believe strongly in god and the messiah (jesus christ) though :)

[Rakkantekimusouka]

Originally posted by Oath
i dont claim any religion and i think they are all like \"racist\" against each other and stuff.

Just say "prejudiced".

Don't get me started on "racism"...http://img69.exs.cx/img69/1760/angelpun4zw.gif

(Genetically Speaking, Race Doesn't Exist In Humans (http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/1998-10/WUiS-GSRD-071098.php))

[bradybaker]

I'm a baptized Christian, but as most of you know...I don't really think too much of that anymore...

[spoon]

Originally posted by Oath
i dont claim any religion and i think they are all like \"racist\" against each other and stuff. people always try to put labels on me though calling me this and that and it really pisses me off!#%$@ i do believe strongly in god and the messiah (jesus christ) though :)

.... doesn't that pretty much make you a christian then?

if the shoe fits! :-P

-spoon

[Clairity]

I'm a Christian.

[Je33ica]

roman catholic here, and the pope went bye bye today :angel: :flyaway:

[Kaniaz]

Not me. In the younger schools they would teach us Christian things, although not explicity - just vaugely and on occasion. We made prayers to god and stuff. Although personally I never grapsed what god was back then; and thus never believed in him. In fact I remember one night at home, my brother said "isn't it weird how you can say '<something rather nasty about god>' and he doesn't care. i mean. some boring god." I guess that's where my skepticism came in.

[Gwendolyn]

I was bapitized also....But that's when I really started to look at myself. I wasn't a Christian then, and I'm not now either.

[SleepSpirit]

I was once a pretty hardcore christian..
but i always questioned it..
something never seemed quite right..
right now I'm furious at the religion..
so mad..
I try to contain myself..

I think christianty is condescending to woman, (along with a lof of other religions) and i see men and woman as equals.. i guess that's the main thing.

It might have began as a good thing, but man has destroyed it, has turned it into something... not quite right.. . we'll never know the truth,

I've had my brush with death more than enough,
I've felt things....
and so i do believe there is a higher power..
or just something beyond this..
but,
I can't put my faith in something my heart doesn't agree with.. . .
ERg

[nerve]

Originally posted by hate
I'm a bit surprised that I'm the only Christian out of 6 first posters. I thought almost all the users of this forum are Americans, and I thought almost all Americans are Catholic or other Christians.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHHahahhahahwiahkl;sqrjp'w1q!@!!!!

[dreamtamer007]

Ya

[SleepSpirit]

Ld'ing is evil according to most christian religions

[nerve]

HAHAHAHHAHA!!! that's even more hilarious. please. show me in the bible where it says "thou shalt not have lucid dreams". God actually used dreams to convey messages to people. dreams are not evil...I don't see any reason why lucid dreaming would be considered "evil". of course, I'm sure there are plenty of self-righteous conservative christians who believe and claim that it's evil. but that doesn't mean it's true.

[SleepSpirit]

haha
i know
What makes harry potter evil ?
what makes Pokemon evil ?

christians think everything is evil..

even dreams !!!!!

everything;s evil !
watch out
be afriad..
Follow ,me
be afraid @!

[nerve]

hi I believe I have told you that not all christians think that. and no, dreams are not evil. did you not even read my post?

[Oath]

.....fools is what they are paperdoll. dont trip offa' it homes

[Kaniaz]

Originally posted by SleepSpirit

What makes harry potter evil ?
what makes Pokemon evil ?

christians think everything is evil..

You have a very warped view of christians. Please fix it.

[nerve]

what makes you say that Oath?

[Kaniaz]

dont trip offa' it homes[/b]

that could so pass as a line in a gangsta rap

[Hate]

I'm a christian...
I don't think everything is evil or that dreams are evil. I don't think that pokemon or Harry Potter is evil. I don't think The Lord of the Rings is evil. Sadly the most audible part of people is mostly the one with the most radical or strict opinions.

And Oath, what does really make you say that christians are fools?





Anyway, as I already told, I'm not so very religious christian. I think I present the majority of christians here who don't usually go to church or pray every day or stuff like that.

[Mickeys_Elbow]

Baptized and confirmed as a Catholic, but no longer practicing. There's more to life the universe and everything than what they tell us. 42 makes a heck of a lot better creed!

[Redeyedwolfking]

I used to consider myself christian but I dont any more either. the reason is because I dont want to spend my life saying sorry to someone who I never did anything too. Think about it if jesus died for us does he really want all this sorrow. I would be a little ashamed if I did something for someone and all they did was say sorry for my troubles and ignore why I did it. As for the bible it was written a long time ago by people thats right people, its not gods word I could write that it is evil to drive a car or that we were created by aliens. people would beleive me.

[Resnemetan]

What makes harry potter evil ?
what makes Pokemon evil ?

christians think everything is evil..

even dreams !!!!!

everything;s evil !
watch out
be afriad..
Follow ,me
be afraid @![/b]

Most of the Christians that I know are like that.

EDIT: By the way, I am no Christian.

[Umbrasquall]

This is kind of interesting actually. I definitely expected more Christians. (Unless bradybaker registered 20 different usernames in order to vote no on this topic :D)

I think it would be interesting to do a poll with more choices than just Christianity and see the true layout of this forum. Though I'd probably say that the people registered here that visit this section more are the atheists?

[Amethyst Star]

I'm thinking more athiests visit the philosophy forum. I stop by once in a while to see what's going on out of curiosity, but usually don't post because I run out of steam rather quickly. (steam, not reason) At any rate, I still like to see what kind of people are here, and a thread would be hard to cover all religions, but one never knows.

[CT]

Its probably because intelligent people like to philosofise(sp?) and intelligent people often seem to become atheists

</flamebai>

;)

[Amethyst Star]

Originally posted by CT
Its probably because intelligent people like to philosofise(sp?) and intelligent people often seem to become atheists

</flamebai>

I've got 5 words to say to that:

What's that supposed to mean?

[Alaurast78]

Well I was raised Christian and some of my beliefs could still be called Christian. I would label myself more Agnostic than Christian but then again i don't like labels.

[ElijahJones]

I was a born again Christian for 14 years as an adult, it was something I was raised in. Currently I would say that I am an agnostic leaning towards atheism if only because I see no real proof for Gods existence.

While I was in the church I saw a lot of hypocrisy and in the end it just wore me down. I am much happier now and well if God or whoever runs the show (if anyone at all) wants to send me a message He knows where I live. I mean if we are talking about a divine being.

It is troubling to me that we are so quick to attack and in any dispute our first thought is to brace for the attack (be defensive). Someo f the lack of civility comes from American culture today. But it is a poor way to resolve conflicts. God or not, communities have to keep working and doing what they do. A good healthy debate about God, nothing wrong with that.

Oh by the way every evangelical denomination I am aware of thinks that LD is sort of like giving your body to the devil. It is true that God used dreams to speak to people in the Bible but the closest thing to LD in the Bible are not the dreams but the visions where the prophet or seer still seems to interact vividly with the vision. In terms of the control one experiences in an LD I cannot think of one example in the Bible and I know the book as well as any.

Peace,

EJ

[Seeker]

Born again, March 1973 :D

[nerve]

Oh by the way every evangelical denomination I am aware of thinks that LD is sort of like giving your body to the devil. It is true that God used dreams to speak to people in the Bible but the closest thing to LD in the Bible are not the dreams but the visions where the prophet or seer still seems to interact vividly with the vision. In terms of the control one experiences in an LD I cannot think of one example in the Bible and I know the book as well as any.[/b]

sometimes they just happen, I don't see how it could be evil

[Daeraug]

I am a Witch. :)

[Resnemetan]

to Daeraug:

Do you mean that you are a Wiccan? Or that you are
a practitioner of magick?

[ElijahJones]

Good point Paperdoll. I know it is kind of wierd.

[Daeraug]

Originally posted by Resnemetan
to Daeraug:

Do you mean that you are a Wiccan? Or that you are
a practitioner of magick?

I am Wiccan.

[dreamtamer007]

:D Jesus will have the last word. Not me. And won’t it be alarming if he does come back like he said he would. All religions have an overtone of be kind, help your brother or sister. First let me say that it is a documented fact that the man Jesus was alive and here in the flesh. Its documented history. Not a mad up story of pretend. Whether he is or was what he said he is up to the individual to believe or not. But like the awareness of a lucid dreamer the most educated and smartest people of the world looked at the books. and discovered. Woops, he is who he said he is. And that’s the name of that tune.
By the way the word Christian means to be Christ like. (To be like him)

[Daeraug]

I am aware of Jesus and what he said. I hold him in high regard. Even if I am not christian, but I am not a ignorant pagan as well. I know the christian religion very well. I was raised for seven years to be a missionary and I gave talks on the bible in front of many people.

[Ajax]

Originally posted by bradybaker
I'm a baptized Christian, but as most of you know...I don't really think too much of that anymore...
Personally I believe strongly in Jesus Christ and I have a hard time seeing how anyone who knows about Him and belived in Him enough to be baptized and ask the Holy Spirit to enter their heart could doubt it later. If you truely are not a believer in God then I would just like to ask you (since you have nothing to lose if your right, and everything to lose if your wrong) please just take a few minutes and earnestly pray to God, ask him if he really is there and listen, dont just blow it off and dont go into it thinking that he isnt there just pray and listen.

[bradybaker]

I prayed for the Toronto Maple Leafs to win the Stanley Cup for 10 solid years, that didn't get me anywhere. :P

[Daeraug]

Originally posted by bradybaker
I prayed for the Toronto Maple Leafs to win the Stanley Cup for 10 solid years, that didn't get me anywhere. :P

Amen! Of course it was the Boston Bruins I was praying for.

[DuckMan_Drake]

I learn lessons from each. It is surprising how some (If not all) religions are saying the same thing, even though they can be at a different end of an argument. Look at Christianity and Wiccanism, Christians have the ten commandments, I cannot remeber them all, and they all equal to basically what the Wiccan end of the argument is: "Hurt none, do what you please". They just spread it out, which makes things less vague and easier to stand by.

[DuckMan_Drake]

Sorry to Daeraug if it is not accurate.

[eyeofgames]

yeah I am

[Daeraug]

Originally posted by DuckMan_Drake
Sorry to Daeraug if it is not accurate.

No problem, man. The thing a lot of people miss is that a lot of people tend to forget that a lot of traditions in Christianity are based from Wicca. They used that tactic for drawing more people to it, and making them feel comfortable back in the day.

Also, some people think that Wicca is a new religion when Wicca is a new name for an older one. I guess it is concidered more PC than Witchcraft.

[dreamer3]

im a christian! my dads a priest..... he planted his own church (a bit older than 1 year) devout christian, may become a priest.... someday........

[bigunit224]

As Bradybaker has probably already figured out from our arguments on God's existance, I too am considered that of the Christian faith. I'm not against anyone else's viewpoints and try to live my life as ubiased as possible. I do have one pressing question though: For all of the former Christians in here who were baptized and born again, what was it that brought you to swaying from your belief in God? Just Curious-

[bradybaker]

Logic and rational thought.

[Rakkantekimusouka]

Originally posted by bradybaker
Logic and rational thought.

That happened to me too...but unfortunately, logic and rational thought alone left me feeling empty. I did a little so-called "soul-searching", but to no avail. Then I started having my visions, which strongly urged me to convert to Judaism, so I did. And I feel complete again.

Bradybaker, I am in no way being sarcastic here: I envy you.

[XxAphroditesAngelxX]

Well..

I was raised Roman Catholic.. and as a child was quite religious. As I have grown older I have learned and continue to learn more and more about society and "the real world" and honestly.. it's harder and harder to just "believe".

At this moment.. I find myself "unlabled" and I like it that way. Do I believe in a higher power? YES.. I find it hard not to. But I've come away from many particular Catholic beliefs.. because frankly.. I just don't agree. One example: Reconciliation- better known as confession.. I just figure if I'm sorry, I'm sorry.. I don't need someone telling me I'm "forgiven".

Although I'm not much of a "practicing" Catholic and hardly associate myself with the religion.. I still defend it with all my heart.. mainly I guess, because it's a part of me.. and my childhood..

Anyway... I wouldn't really claim to be anything... I've somewhat pulled different beliefs from different religions and just believe what I believe.

I also have nothing against others and their beliefs.. whether they agree or disagree with me.. hey what you choose to believe is your business.. I only get agitated when others incorrectly represent a belief.. or argue with something.. that isn't even true..
example: Catholics worship statues, Catholics put Mary above Jesus, Christians believe The Matrix is evil.. it's just like.. don't summerize.. or assume that an entire group feels a certain way just because one or two people express their personal opinion about it.

[evangel]

Originally posted by Daeraug
The thing a lot of people miss is that a lot of people tend to forget that a lot of traditions in Christianity are based from Wicca.
Ummm. For example...?
It might have began as a good thing, but man has destroyed it, has turned it into something... not quite right.. . we'll never know the truth[/b]
"23And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." 25So they were saying to Him, "Who are You?" Jesus said to them, "What have I been saying to you from the beginning? 26"I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world." 27They did not realize that He had been speaking to them about the Father. 28So Jesus said, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me. 29"And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him." 30As He spoke these things, many came to believe in Him. 31So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." 33They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?" 34Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin has become the slave of sin. 35"The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. 36"So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed."

As for Christians believing dreams are "evil," that's just nonsense. What is evil is what those people choose to do with those dreams. Scripture speaks of the evil of false dream interpretation, divination (fortune or future-telling), speaking to the dead, and other related "uses" are prohibited but the Bible is also full of examples of God using dreams to speak to people both directly and indirectly. The main problem is that dreams can be extremely deceptive and cause delusional thoughts of self-empowerment or "gifts" or skills that are taught by "lying spirits" and explicitly prohibited by God.

[bradybaker]

Originally posted by Daeraug
The thing a lot of people miss is that a lot of people tend to forget that a lot of traditions in Christianity are based from Wicca.
I'm not familiar with that. But I know that a lot of Christianity is derived from ancient paganism. Christmas and Easter being the most obvious examples.

[Daeraug]

In case you haven't noticed, I was pointing that little fact out. Not saying that I am superior. I believe that everyone is entitled to his or her own belief structure.

Quote the bible all you want. I could do that, too. I was priest in Christianity for about seven years total. I am quite familiar with it still, and interpreting the bible is all a matter of opinion and how it was translated. I could read it one-way, and another person could interpret it another.

Dreams are not evil. It is natural, why would God make or let you dream, and make it a sin?

[evangel]

If you are so familiar with scripture and you were a "priest in Christianity" you also know that "Christianity" in general and Christ and his teachings are often at odds with one another... So pagan holidays were transferred by the Catholic church. Big deal. Celebration of holidays has little or nothing to do with what Christ taught. And my quote from scripture was in response to someone else's (SleepSpirit's) post, so no worries. I agree... dreams are not evil.

[Daeraug]

So I noticed, hence my commenting how dreams are not evil. As for my priesthood, I was a Jehovah's Witness Minister, being trained for Missionary work. I did know what the scripture was for. So there was no worry. :-P

[bradybaker]

Originally posted by evangel
So pagan holidays were transferred by the Catholic church. Big deal. Celebration of holidays has little or nothing to do with what Christ taught.
They do however have a lot to do with events that supposedly took place a couple thousand years ago (ie. the birth and resurrection of Jesus).

And not once have I taken issue with the message behind Christianity and Jesus' teachings, I think the bible is a damn good (if a little longwinded) story and a great model for how to live one's life. But that's where the connection to reality stops.

[Daeraug]

I keep a bible still as well. Contrary to popular belief, many Wiccans have a lot of respect for Jesus. He was a good man and mentor. A person to emulate, Christian means Christ-like. There are a few bad eggs that slander the religion.

[evangel]

Originally posted by bradybaker
I think the bible is a damn good (if a little longwinded) story and a great model for how to live one's life. But that's where the connection to reality stops. So all the good moral behavior stuff is allright, but as soon as the Bible mentions damnation, sin, and eternal life, or any of the spiritual truth or doctrine, it's the stick fingers in the ears and sing la-la-la-la-la-la-laaaaa technique. ;)
Too convenient for my blood.

As for my priesthood, I was a Jehovah's Witness Minister, being trained for Missionary work. [/b] BUMmer :whyohwhy: Hey ...at least you learned a lot about who NOT to believe. I have more respect for Wiccans than I do for Jehovah's Witnesses for some reason ;) .

[Daeraug]

Originally posted by evangel
* BUMmer *:whyohwhy: * *Hey ...at least you learned a lot about who NOT to believe. I have more respect for Wiccans than I do for Jehovah's Witnesses for some reason ;) .

Yeah, no kidding. :P

[Amethyst Star]

*looks oh aghast* AH! My post! The only post I take part in in the Philosophy section. It's mainly just asking what people around here believe and why. Not really a debate.

(I'm big on neatness and tidiness)

[evangel]

:argue:

Okay. I stop arguing here, but only 'cause Ames is my peeps. :wink:

[bradybaker]

Originally posted by evangel
damnation, sin, and eternal life, or any of the spiritual truth or doctrine
These are all just dramatic ways of expressing the age old saying, "what goes around comes around".

As for excessive convenience...that's funny coming from someone who supports a position that basically boils down to "God did it".

[evangel]

The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to those who believe it is salvation and truth. In unbelief, the gospel is like the stench of death, yet to those who are alive in Christ it is a beautiful fragrance of eternal life!
It is one of the most wonderfully glorious things to see how God uses what many see as foolishness and humility to confound mankind's "wisdom" and demonstrate his power.

:aphiusiscrazy:

[Daeraug]

Originally posted by evangel
The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to those who believe it is salvation and truth. In unbelief, the gospel is like the stench of death, yet to those who are alive in Christ it is a beautiful fragrance of eternal life! *
It is one of the most wonderfully glorious things to see how God uses what many see as foolishness and humility to confound mankind's \"wisdom\" and demonstrate his power.
*
:aphiusiscrazy:

I do have an honest question though. Wouldn't you consider the use of the cross as idolatry? And what about the statues of the Virgin Mary? Do not people pray to those also?

[evangel]

Definitely. In fact, one of the ten commandments is pretty clear that we are not to consecrate images. ( "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth." -Exodus 20-4) I don't think having something like a cross on your wall, or door mantle or such things are "idolotry," as long as one is not venerating the image itself. Symbols like the cross can be helpful to stimulate or remind people of truths in scripture, but the images themselves should never be used like a talisman, charm, or object of worship in itself. Some people take this even further and say ALL images, even artwork; paintings, symbols, movies, etc. fall under this commandment, but I would disagree. A simple mention of the cross as I mentioned above is not idolotry since idolotry indicates worship. The NT writers make such mention several times. I think it's ridiculaous when I see people praying to statues, pictures, :roll: etc. -and going gaga over shadows on walls and other such nonsense.

[bradybaker]

Originally posted by evangel
The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to those who believe it is salvation and truth. In unbelief, the gospel is like the stench of death, yet to those who are alive in Christ it is a beautiful fragrance of eternal life!
It is one of the most wonderfully glorious things to see how God uses what many see as foolishness and humility to confound mankind's \"wisdom\" and demonstrate his power.
So...ignorance is bliss then? It seems strange that 'God' would endow us with critical thinking thinking skills and then damn us for all eternity for using them.

[Daeraug]

Originally posted by bradybaker

So...ignorance is bliss then? It seems strange that 'God' would endow us with critical thinking thinking skills and then damn us for all eternity for using them.

I think it would be more along the lines of, that the God and Goddess, gave us the ability to reason and choose, but we have to make good decision on how to use it. Honestly, I don't believe in hell, but I agree that if we do something wrong we will get what is coming to us. Not necessarily for all eternity.

[evangel]

So...ignorance is bliss then? It seems strange that 'God' would endow us with critical thinking thinking skills and then damn us for all eternity for using them. [/b]
You're right. Those are strange notions... I see no reason to believe either of them.

Those who are condemened are condemned because of sin; Choosing to believe in other sources of authority other than God, being one among many...

Critical thinking is definitely encouraged. Thinking you know everything is not.

[bradybaker]

Originally posted by evangel
Those who are condemened are condemned because of sin; Choosing to believe in other sources of authority other than God, being one among many...
Here's a bit of critical thinking for you. Stay with me.

God created everything, therefore God created me.

God is all knowing, therefore humans have no free will.

Therefore, God created me with no free will.

Therefore, God determined that I would be an atheist.

But according to you and your fairy tales, when I die I'll be condemned to hell for ever and ever. Experiencing eternal pain beyond comprehension. Seems like kind of a raw deal for me eh?

Secondly (this was a point brought up in another thread or two, by spoon I think), as a Christian, you believe in one Supreme Being. Correct? Ok.

So what then of Zeus and all of his buddies, Allah, Vishnu, Buddha and the countless other Gods that have been held as divine creators by our species? What makes those Gods any less credible than yours? I only believe in one less God than you.

[Hate]

Originally posted by bradybaker
God is all knowing, therefore humans have no free will.
Your logic is very clear apart from this one. Can you explain why all-knowing God would cause humans not to have free will?

[bradybaker]

Originally posted by Hate
Can you explain why all-knowing God would cause humans not to have free will?
I thought that was the most obvious one. If God knows everything that is going to happen, then your path is already laid out. You can't "decide" to do something different, you can only follow the one path that God 'knows' that you will follow. That's the path that he created for you.

The problem arises in the fact that Christians describe their God as all-knowing and all-powerful. Those properties are mutually exclusive. So either God determined that I would be an atheist and purposefully condemned me to hell, or he isn't all knowing and therefore isn't God.

[Daeraug]

[quote]
So what then of Zeus and all of his buddies, Allah, Vishnu, Buddha and the countless other Gods that have been held as divine creators by our species? What makes those Gods any less credible than yours? I only believe in one less God than you.

You make a good point there. I will give you that. The Christian God does admit there is other gods. In the Bible it says, "Do not worship any other god over me, for I am a jealous god."

Some might think this is blasphemous, but I do believe the gods are absolutely perfect. They are far wiser than us, but they can make mistakes, and we humans tend to not always make things go as they planned. :-P

[evangel]

Originally posted by evangel

God created everything, therefore God created me. yip. Whether I like it or not. ;)
God is all knowing, therefore humans have no free will.[/b]Your logic (critical thinking) is still rife with assumptions that I don't agree with... Your idea of free will is different from mine. All things are predetermined, yes, including your unbelief, yes, yet your unbelief is also YOUR WILL and not necessarily IMPOSED as you are implying that it is. Your will (and mine) is \"free\" only in that you choose \"what you want.\" Yet I BELIEVE that human will outside of Christ is severely (puting it lightly) hindered and blinded by something called sin, which includes all imperfect thoughts and human behaviors (and even those physical traits which eventually lead to death), and most importantly: spiritual death. Ergo, because our will is \"hindered\" or as Paul puts it \"in bondage\" or \"spiritually DEAD\" until regenerated by God all that we \"want\" or \"choose\" is drowned in sin and UNABLE to choose true good (meaning \"good\" in the eyes of God). There is good from a worldly/social viewpoint which is all fine and dandy for temporal life and then there is \"good\" from God's viewpoint which is PERFECTION. In light of this, it is no wonder that the Jews under the OT had to undergo all kinds of cleansing and purifying rites and only particular special individuals were CHOSEN to be priests and mediators between God and human beings.
But according to you and your fairy tales, when I die I'll be condemned to hell for ever and ever.[/b] I never said any such hogwash. It is not up to anyone but God to determine or judge who will or won't be saved. Experiencing eternal pain beyond comprehension. Seems like kind of a raw deal for me eh?[/b] Actually, that is justice... whcih after seeing my own condition before God, I can understand. What I DON'T understand is his grace. Why would he allow or choose ANY entrance into his kingdom. It is not as if he is obligated. It is his mercy and grace that is most mind-boggling to me. It is my hope and prayer that to you might be given this grace since even the smallest glimpse of it would alter your mind and soul in such a way that you could not help but choose Christ (not church or religion, mind you - Christ himself!)
So what then of Zeus and all of his buddies, Allah, Vishnu, Buddha and the countless other Gods that have been held as divine creators by our species? What makes those Gods any less credible than yours? I only believe in one less God than you.[/b] I do not know these "god's" (in a personal sense, though I have taken world religion classes and am aware of them) and have no desire to know them. However, I DO believe that many "teachers" have come with deception (as Christ said there would) claiming divinity and power and even claiming to be the one true God or Christ himself. I have little doubt that some of these so-called gods may in fact be fallen angels, principalities, or spirits who have come posing as beings worthy of worship. The Judaeo-Christian scriptures clearly state that NO ONE is worthy of worship but the ONE true I AM that is Christ the King of kings himself. I do not speak for others on this forum. I believe there may be other "gods" - only in the sense that groups have attributed such titles to them. I believe there is a whole range of celestial/spiritual beings and heirarchies in God's creation. This is at least implied by scripture. However, the God of the Bible, who is also the God Christ claimed to represent, calls men and women to know him since he is the only eternal, uncreated, and yes all-powerful, all-knowing God.

[bradybaker]

Originally posted by evangel+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(evangel)</div>All things are predetermined, yes, including your unbelief, yes, yet your unbelief is also YOUR WILL and not necessarily IMPOSED as you are implying that it is.[/b]
Sorry, as nice as it would be, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Originally posted by evangel+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(evangel)</div> I never said any such hogwash. It is not up to anyone but God to determine or judge who will or won't be saved.[/b]
Ok, but your fairy tales do suggest that someone such as myself will burn for all eternity, in hell.

<!--QuoteBegin-evangel@
Actually, that is justice
Not if I have no other choice.

<!--QuoteBegin-evangel
The Judaeo-Christian scriptures clearly state that NO ONE is worthy of worship but the ONE true I AM that is Christ the King of kings himself.
So you believe in God because the Bible tells you to?

[Daeraug]

Okay, guys. I am not going to harp on this too much. So far we been civil and I would like to keep that way. Religion and politics tend to get people fired up. I am not trying to be a jerk, just want to keep thing clean becuase I am enjoying this discussion.

[spoon]

Originally posted by evangel
Actually, that is justice... .

Infinite punishment for finite crimes is just? In what reality?

The Judaeo-Christian scriptures clearly state...[/b]

http://plognark.com///Sketches/CircularLogicMascotSmall.JPG

So outside of the bible, what makes the bible true? Is there something in existance that points towards a specifically triune creator (is christianity alone in a trinity)? Is there something in existance that points towards being intelligently designed specifically by yahweh? Is there anything, outside of the bible, that falsifies all other religions (while simultaneously not falsifying yours)?

-spoon

[bradybaker]

http://plognark.com///Sketches/CircularLogicMascotSmall.JPG[/b]

LOL! That's the greatest thing I've seen all night.

[AirRick101]

As far as I know, Christians aren't Christians merely because the Bible told them to be. It was their choice to believe in it. Or else they wouldn't be "Christians..."

Bradybaker, you accuse Evangel of certain assumptions way too fast. I really don't think he speaks against thinking. And his belief in God quite permits him to believe in both predestination and free will. If one believes in God, might as well believe in everything He can do or be. Since you are unwilling to acknowledge God, of course the attributes of omniscience and omnipotence go against each other. Siding with this argument is not necessarily stupid, but one-dimensional. You can try to reconcile the two, but it won't really work unless you assume a God. Nobody is so stupid to believe there is no free will, at least in the practical sense, anyway.

What really pisses me off is when somebody automatically condemns someone else to hell just because they did something the other was opposed to. (not necessarily evangel) It doesn't work like that. But belief in God and justice is beneficial in the sense of feeling confident that all will be recompensed. Believers believe God will judge, but not according to man's opinion. Even if it sounds distasteful, it won't seem so in the big picture.

Lol, evangel, I feel the same toward idol worship. At least, giving excessive reverence to something material.

(sniff) Oh God, I smell dogma! Better stop!

Well...I've experienced both sides of the argument.

[Daeraug]

Excellent points, Rick. Glad someone else sees things straight.

[evangel]

Brady and Spoon-man and I have "gone at it" before. Though I do find some of their assumptions and views distasteful towards Christians (of which I am unabashedly), especially given that this is a thread mainly intended FOR those who claim to be Christian, the only reason I continue is that I sympathize with their doubts - since I too was at one time hostile towards Christ. At some point I suppose it becomes like "casting my pearls" in the mud... Yet I find it very difficult to let statements stand that are blatantly offensive and ignorant of Christ and his Words.

Brady: It is possible for the will of man and the will of God to coincide (It DOES in fact coincide) -yet I do not believe in "free will" in the traditional sense of the terminology. As I said before (and I believe this is consistant with scripture) the will of man in his current fallen state is continually seeking after the self and the sinful nature, totally incapable to choose "good" until God "quickens," "regenerates," or "opens the eyes of the heart"... So even though our every thought and intention has been predetermined before the foundation of the earth (which as you pointed out logically has to be in order for God to be both omnipotent and omiscient), those who still claim they have "free will" and go on to choose authorities other than God only prove God's Word (the only other alternative to the traditional understanding of "free will") in that "they WILLINGLY CHOOSE not to believe or trust in God" - or even further and even more tragic, they willingly choose enmity with him because they deem themselves equal or superior to him in their authority and judgment (which was Satan's plight). :shakehead2: Again, I am not saying that "good deeds" are fine and dandy, but ultimately, apart from Christ they are not really "good" in any eternal value. This is also one message of Jesus' miracle of the fish and the bread: That food is good to feed the hungry and the poor, yet it only feeds the body which is eventually going to die and become earth again. Yet the Bread of Life is of ETERNAL VALUE (John 6).

AirRick: :thumbup:

[InTheMoment]

Sorry for interjecting so late into this thread, but Spoon posed a very legitimate question earlier that no one has seemed to address.

Is there anything, outside of the bible, that falsifies all other religions (while simultaneously not falsifying yours)? [/b]

This question has been asked before on other threads (of a similar nature) and was avoided at those times as well.


evangel wrote:
Brady and Spoon-man and I have \"gone at it\" before. Though I do find some of their assumptions and views distasteful towards Christians (of which I am unabashedly), especially given that this is a thread mainly intended FOR those who claim to be Christian, the only reason I continue is that I sympathize with their doubts - since I too was at one time hostile towards Christ. At some point I suppose it becomes like \"casting my pearls\" in the mud... Yet I find it very difficult to let statements stand that are blatantly offensive and ignorant of Christ and his Words. [/b]

We all have stories about finding and/or losing faith in a particular religion. My absence of faith in a higher being comes from my own sense of awakening and awareness. And just as you sympathize with their doubts, I sympathize with your applied logic in regards to a book full of metaphors. :|

[bradybaker]

Originally posted by evangel
So even though our every thought and intention has been predetermined before the foundation of the earth (which as you pointed out logically has to be in order for God to be both omnipotent and omiscient), those who still claim they have \"free will\" and go on to choose authorities other than God only prove God's Word (the only other alternative to the traditional understanding of \"free will\") in that \"they WILLINGLY CHOOSE not to believe or trust in God\"
You can believe that, and write it down, and preach it all you want, but that doesn't make it any less nonsensical.

Anything that you \"have to believe in God to accept\" in an obvious con.

Originally posted by AirRick101
And his belief in God quite permits him to believe in both predestination and free will. If one believes in God, might as well believe in everything He can do or be. Since you are unwilling to acknowledge God, of course the attributes of omniscience and omnipotence go against each other.
Ahh, my favorite. The age old statement, \"you can't understand, you just have to believe!\".

Originally posted by AirRick101
Nobody is so stupid to believe there is no free will, at least in the practical sense, anyway.
I am.
http://www.dreamviews.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12877

[Rakkantekimusouka]

Originally posted by bradybaker
I am.
http://www.dreamviews.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12877
Me too!

But I mean, doesn't the idea of no free will just make so much more sense? When you talk about free will, especially in a [mono]theistic sense, you run into so many obstacles.

The world isn't black and white. Sometimes the most obvious answer isn't the right one -- but sometimes, just sometimes, it is.

[spoon]

Originally posted by evangel
This is also one message of Jesus' miracle of the fish and the bread: That food is good to feed the hungry and the poor, yet it only feeds the body which is eventually going to die and become earth again.

It is just me, or does this \"miracle\" mean something more along the lines of \"god can create food any time he wants, but he'd rather let people starve\"?

It is possible for the will of man and the will of God to coincide (It DOES in fact coincide) -yet I do not believe in \"free will\" in the traditional sense of the terminology. As I said before (and I believe this is consistant with scripture) the will of man in his current fallen state is continually seeking after the self and the sinful nature, totally incapable to choose \"good\" until God \"quickens,\" \"regenerates,\" or \"opens the eyes of the heart\"... [/b]

Statement: will of man and god co-incide.
Proof: the bible says we're sinners

All you've done is redefine freewill, through the bible, so you can prove the bible right. And just to point something out if I am \"incapable to choose \"good\" until god \"opens my eyes\" then how is being punished for anything I do before my \"eyes are open\". That raises the same problems as a complete lack of free will.

So even though our every thought and intention has been predetermined before the foundation of the earth (which as you pointed out logically has to be in order for God to be both omnipotent and omiscient), those who still claim they have \"free will\" and go on to choose authorities other than God only prove God's Word (the only other alternative to the traditional understanding of \"free will\") in that \"they WILLINGLY CHOOSE not to believe or trust in God\" - or even further and even more tragic, they willingly choose enmity with him because they deem themselves equal or superior to him in their authority and judgment (which was Satan's plight).[/b]

The emphasis is mine. See anything wrong there?
-spoon

[Lucius]

Originally posted by spoon
It is just me, or does this \"miracle\" mean something more along the lines of \"god can create food any time he wants, but he'd rather let people starve\"?

You know, its funny. They say humans were created to be an image of God? Well, we humans are capable of 'utopia', but yet people don't do it (a thing such as 'world peace and equality for all is indeed possible in theory). I guess God does not live up to his full potential either.

Not saying I believe in 'God' or us being made after him, just an observation.

[evangel]

Originally posted by InTheMoment
Is there anything, outside of the bible, that falsifies all other religions (while simultaneously not falsifying yours)?

This question has been asked before on other threads (of a similar nature) and was avoided at those times as well.
|[/b]

Hmmmm... maybe that's because the question is pointless. If you're going to argue that ALL you have to argue from is the Bible, I would say that's because "the bible" (a book of metaphors) is all that you see...

Oh and Spoon, someone who's eyes have not been opened is already under the wrath of God. As the scriptures put it "God's anger REMAINS upon them." In other words the condemned are not punished in spite of their ignorance... They are punished BECAUSE of their ignorance. In other words, they WILLFULLY CHOOSE to close their eyes and rail against (suppress) the truth so that they can try to justify themselves before God.

[InTheMoment]

evangel wrote:
Hmmmm... maybe that's because the question is pointless. If you're going to argue that ALL you have to argue from is the Bible, I would say that's because \"the bible\" (a book of metaphors) is all that you see... [/b]

Because that is exactly what IT is...and just because one has thorough knowledge of a piece of literature doesn't make said literature infallible.

One could just as easily assemble all the works of Dr. Seuss into one book, revise it a bit, study each line and then apply a philosophical interpretation. You would then have a work of literature no more and no less credible in knowing the universe than the bible.

[evangel]

I think it is funny to see how so many non-Christians love to post on threads obviously intended for Christians. Bound to happen though I guess. :roll:

[nerve]

Originally posted by bradybaker

Anything that you \"have to believe in God to accept\" in an obvious con.


it's an experience you have. no one forces it on you, no one CAN force it on you, it's a wonderful realization that you come to yourself.


evangel, what's so wrong with non-christians posting in a christian thread?

[bradybaker]

Originally posted by evangel+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(evangel)</div>I think it is funny to see how so many non-Christians love to post on threads obviously intended for Christians. Bound to happen though I guess.[/b]
I think it's funny to see how many Christians turn their brains off and walk away when obviously valid questions are brought up against their scripture and their creator.

<!--QuoteBegin-Paperdoll EP
it's an experience you have. no one forces it on you, no one CAN force it on you, it's a wonderful realization that you come to yourself.
I don't doubt that realization of God is a wonderful experience, of course it's a wonderful experience. If it wasn't, people wouldn't have such a realization. What better a way to deny your inevitable death in favor of eternal life?

[AirRick101]

I actually see what you mean by having no free will, bradybaker. At least, if what you mean is that we are influenced by countless factors in our actions, and that everything we do is conditioned? But does that discount our ability to choose in spite of the factors?

I don't mean to preach "you have to believe to see," although I probably did. This same philosophy pissed me off when other Christians came to me with it when I approached them with question.

If this is the case, what indeed would it take for you to believe? Are experiences in every day life not enough? It's only whatever paradigm one holds. Choose what you will, though.

[evangel]

After a while I also find it becomes annoying (to say the least) :shakehead2: to try and asnwer questions that people already think they know the answers to.

I suppose this is a question I need to ask myself more often in these situations:
Why answer a foo' according to his folly?
(Proverbs 26:4)

[eyeofgames]

just to say I dont follow the church......they are the ones who have turned christanity into a evil organization who wants to milk money out of its followers with fear of hell.Christ would be ashamed of them....

[Franz Ferdinand]

oh i used to be christian, but i converted to atheism after i found that my prayers have never ever been answered and its really hard to believe the bible, for me anyway.

[bradybaker]

Originally posted by AirRick101+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(AirRick101)</div>But does that discount our ability to choose in spite of the factors?[/b]
Yes. If you agree that our mind is a physical system operating within the laws of physical and chemical reaction.

If you don't agree, I would ask how and why you jump to such a conclusion.

<!--QuoteBegin-AirRick101
If this is the case, what indeed would it take for you to believe?
That's a good question....I think that even if God came down from heaven and revealed himself to me, saying \"I am God, worship me you idiot.\"...I still wouldn't be able to believe. The brain can produce some powerful illusions. But you never know.

I guess I'll just have to wait and see about what happens when I die.....if I spend a few years in agonizing pain after death...I might have to reconsider my position.

Originally posted by evangel
I suppose this is a question I need to ask myself more often in these situations:
Why answer a foo' according to his folly?
(Proverbs 26:4)
Man, that book has a solution to every problem a theist could have eh? Does it specifically mention how to fend off persistent athiests on internet posting forums?

I do have to ask though, do you have the whole thing memorized? Or is there some kind of database that you can go to to find the perfect quote to fit each unique situation?

EDIT: Funny how you condemn atheists for picking out single lines to show contradiction while you use single lines to show how foolish we are.

[evangel]

Originally posted by Franz Ferdinand
oh i used to be christian, but i converted to atheism after i found that my prayers have never ever been answered and its really hard to believe the bible, for me anyway.

Since true faith is a gift from God, this probably means you simply never had it to begin with. :cry: A gift from God can never be lost, hence a true Christian can never be "converted."

[Daeraug]

Originally posted by evangel
I think it is funny to see how so many non-Christians love to post on threads obviously intended for Christians. Bound to happen though I guess. :roll:

Just like christians like to post bible scriptures into posts meant for non-christians.

[Amethyst Star]

Originally posted by Daeraug
posts meant for non-christians.

I made this post, ergo I define it. This post was merely to see "How many Christians are on this site". I didn't intend for it to become a spawning ground for arguement (although I did expect it), but rather was created out of sheer curiosity.

Thanks. Have a nice day.

-Amé

(Note: I'm not trying to sound angry. I just thought I'd try to clarify things.)

[evangel]

I would tend to believe that anytime you use the word "God" or "Christian" (or many other such related words) - especially on a site or forum of this nature, one whould expect SOME "spawning"... I for one am passionate about my love for Christ and all that he is, thus find it instinctual to defend who I am from weak-based accusations or criticism. I only post Bible verses in order to show others where I'm coming from - to reinforce my personal position which is based on a source I believe to be an awesomely Authoritative source. I do not post verses with an "anti" sentiment as many who are non-Christians tend to do (unless you consider me to be an anti-anti-Christian, which I am unabashedly :) ). I'm not speaking to you Daerug... I'm talking specifically about those who post with an obvious "anti"-sentiment or questioning of a belief system that is not meant to seek answers but rather to pull down and negate. I suppose that many people tend to and even like basing their beliefs on an "anti" philosophy/sentiment that tears others' down rather than to build their own positively affirmed system, but hey what can I say... :|

[Daeraug]

I respect that you have a strong in belief in God, and your views on it. Sometimes, I may come off like I don't. People tend to have a lot of problems when confronted with those that have beliefs very different from their own. I do not, if someone believes in something, then that is awesome. I just try to respect other's beliefs, even if they conflict with my own.

I enjoy discussion and friendly verbal sparing. I am always open to learning new things.

Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. So study hard and be Evil. :evil:

[Alucinor Architecton]

Originally posted by SleepSpirit
haha
i know *
What makes harry potter evil ?
what makes Pokemon evil ?

christians think everything is evil..

even dreams !!!!!

everything;s evil !
watch out
be afriad..
Follow ,me
be afraid @!

er. im roman catholic. and i don't know where the hell you get the idea that christians think LDing is EVIL?

[Rakkantekimusouka]

Originally posted by Alucinor Architecton
er. im roman catholic. and i don't know where the hell you get the idea that christians think LDing is EVIL?
Not all do, Alucinor, but some of the more fanatical ones do I guess -- as well as pokemon and Harry Potter --, and it unfairly gives non-Christians a bad impression.

[IZ]

I'm a fallen christian thats trying to get up again.

[Universal Mind]

Originally posted by evangel
I think it is funny to see how so many non-Christians love to post on threads obviously intended for Christians. Bound to happen though I guess. :roll:

I saw this before I saw your name, but I knew it was you. You always have something negative to drop on us non-Christians. You are not winning anybody over to your side with that kind of behavior. Would Jesus like that? Also, a poll was set up with two options-- "yes" and "no." It obviously was not set up for just the "yes" people. Idiot.

I have subscribed to many views on the nature and origin of existence, but now I am an atheist who can't fully explain why there is existence. I think true Christians are possibly the greatest people on Earth, but unfortunately, I think most people who call themselves Christians are pulling their own legs and trying to pull everybody else's. People who really believe Jesus is right there watching them are going to act like it. That means that mean, inconsiderate people who call themselves Christians are full of B.S., but people who are for real on it are excellent people.

[Rakkantekimusouka]

Originally posted by Universal Mind
I saw this before I saw your name, but I knew it was you. *You always have something negative to drop on us non-Christians. *You are not winning anybody over to your side with that kind of behavior. *Would Jesus like that? *Also, a poll was set up with two options-- \"yes\" and \"no.\" *It obviously was not set up for just the \"yes\" people. *Idiot. *

I have subscribed to many views on the nature and origin of existence, but now I am an atheist who can't fully explain why there is existence. * I think true Christians are possibly the greatest people on Earth, but unfortunately, I think most people who call themselves Christians are pulling their own legs and trying to pull everybody else's. *People who really believe Jesus is right there watching them are going to act like it. *That means that mean, inconsiderate people who call themselves Christians are full of B.S., but people who are for real on it are excellent people.
Well said, Universal. :bravo:

[Amethyst Star]

Well, each person has a different way of presenting themselves in different situations, so a person who may seem like one way while arguing in a philosophy forum may be an entirely different way than when they're sitting on the couch watching TV with a friend. Evangel is merely very direct in speaking exactly how he feels. I don't think he gives Christians a bad name.

What gives Christians a bad name are those who will claim to be believers in church, but when there's any threat involved, they'll go back on that claim. Sure, believing in God may lose you friends, but you gain one that will never leave you, ever. *thinks about the message she heard on the radio today* It's nice to know the Creator accepts you into His family and you don't have to worry about being rejected ever again :D

[spoon]

Originally posted by Amethyst Star
....and you don't have to worry about being rejected ever again

except if you sin :D

[dreamer3]

heres some clarification on "pre-destination"
i do not believe in pre destination ( i am a christian, my dad is a priest). god has foreknoladge. an example of that is if i drop a glass, i know it will fall down, hit the floor, and break. that is foreknoladge

[bradybaker]

Originally posted by dreamer3
heres some clarification on \"pre-destination\"
i do not believe in pre destination ( i am a christian, my dad is a priest). god has foreknoladge. an example of that is if i drop a glass, i know it will fall down, hit the floor, and break. that is foreknoladge

You are somehow exempt from the laws of physics? Not even a little bit.

[Rakkantekimusouka]

Originally posted by bradybaker
You are somehow exempt from the laws of physics? Not even a little bit.
Not him, baker, "god". He just worded it awkwardly. :roll:

I believe in many gods, and one Source of All Life. Call it a cop out, but it practically controversially debates itself. :D

[existenceisadream]

First off let me apoligize to any of you who are offended by my opinions. With that said...
Just like the computer you're on right now reading this post, God is completely man made. From the beginning of humans evolution fear has made people believe in just about anything to make themselves feel better or fear something even more. Thunder, lightening, shooting stars, or anything that humans didn't understand was a sign from god normally interpreted as "him being angry at them or that they did something wrong. The bible was written by man to keep people in line. What a great way to make people follow rules by saying it was written (or co-written) by God and if you don't follow the bible or rules of God then you will burn eternally in hell. Well ya, of course people don't want to go to hell because most of us know how much being burned sucks and to have to feel that kind of pain eternally would suck. So the fear of eternal hell will surely influence a lot of people to try to follow the bible and God as well as they can so they don't end up with this end. Over the years God is becoming less and less important now becuase we're finding out all the things we used to fear is just that. Our fears of why we're here and what happens after we die. This makes easy believers of the most scared individuals and societies.
If there is a God that created us all and we're supposed to worship him and obey every command of his so we don't burn eterenally (notice I don't say so we can get to heaven because it's the fear of going to hell or not existing that makes believers) then that is just plain sinful right there. To create something and then send it to an eternal hell because it doesn't obey you is devils work to me. Which brings me to if there is a God and he created everything then he created the devil. What kind of sick bastard would do that... Oh ya the same one you'll workship to get a ticket into his loving kingdom. If God is so perfect like every preacher has preached then why is this whole world all so fucked up. Shit as I'm writing this post who knows how many people are being murdered, raped, molested, and countless numbers of other atrocities happening right this instant all created by our loving, accepting, egotistical, psychotic, oh and don't let me forget perfect God.

Someone posted that everything is pre deternined but yet we still have free will. Now that's a huge contradiction. Once again, if all the atrocities I spoke of are all pre determined then that makes god one sick individual that just loves to watch a good show.

Now let me write a few things that I think. I think everything to be energy and just that. The energy can take on many different forms. There may or may not be an afterlife and if there is we make our own heavens and hells but I think life to be a continuing cycle. People seem to look at dying and going to heaven or hell as a finale outcome instead of dying being a step further into the unknown. Or dying being the end of this particular consciousness and intsead merge our energy back into the mass of existence losing this consiousness with it (though I don't really believe that). Maybe good and evil don't exist and just like God are created by man. It seems to me that most all evil and good are created by our emotions. If the humans weren't here then their maybe wouldn't be anything here to create or percieve good or evil.
I believe there may be a higher source of energy or something that would resemeble God stutus in a sense, but take away the ego and all human opinions on the matter, but nothing that any human could percieve.

Sorry I've been rambling so I'll just leave it at that.

So to answer the question yes I'm Christian


Modest Mouse-
If God controls the land and disease,
keeps a watchful eye on me,
If he's really so damn mighty,
my problem is I can't see,
well who would wanna be?
Who would wanna be such a control freak?
Well who would wanna be?
Who would wanna be such a control freak?

[bradybaker]

^ I like this guy.

[evangel]

i do not believe in pre destination ( i am a christian, my dad is a priest). god has foreknoladge. an example of that is if i drop a glass, i know it will fall down, hit the floor, and break. that is foreknoladge [/b]

IAsk your dad this: If God looks into the future and determines his will based on this type of foreknowledge, is he REACTING to someone else's decision's? If God's knowledge of the future is ONLY foreknowledge - as in having the ability to see the future, then he is a REACTIONARY God and not a SOVEREIGN God as the scriptures clearly teach. God is OUTSIDE OF TIME (or can be both outside of and within simulotaneously, however you want tolook at it), thus the past, the present and the future can be seen as one and the same to him. These concepts of time as we know it are of human origin - merely constructed to better understand and organize our idea of reality and our corporeal lives here on earth.

To me, the idea that God simply looks into the future like a psychic or fortune teller would , then proceeds to make his decisons is demeaning, contradictory, and unbiblical. He has, I believe, even ordained every thought, hair, and grain of sand. He is God, not god.

You always have something negative to drop on us non-Christians.[/b]

My "negative" posts are merely responses to negative posts... And especially if you're implying that non-Christians are the same as "anti"-Christians, I will continue to drop, and drop some more.... Should I learn to be more loving and compassionate? I guess you're right to some extent... but to allow ANTI-Christian posts to stand without any reaction is not what I would call loving. That is simply tolerance, and not love and to tolerate evil is itself evil.

Thanks for stepping in my shoes Amethyst.

[Universal Mind]

No, Evangel, you said that this thread was not intended for "non-Christians." Stop lying.

Originally posted by evangel
I think it is funny to see how so many non-Christians love to post on threads obviously intended for Christians. Bound to happen though I guess. :roll:

I don't think Jesus would like your dishonesty and your bad advertisements for Christianity. :wink: But perhaps Satan would if he were real. :mad:

[Kaniaz]

You know, I knew when I came to this thread for the second time, and saw eight whole pages, that the 8th page would almost defintely be some argument about something. I guess it's inevitable - not that argument is a bad thing at all. It's just I bet we couldn't hold a eight page thread in Philosphy (discussing a topic like Christanity) without an arugment occuring.

This has been a random musing. If you came here to find more arguing, I guess I severly disappointed you. Have a cookie. (Or a lapdance).

[evangel]

Originally posted by Universal Mind
No, Evangel, you said that this thread was not intended for \"non-Christians.\" *Stop lying.

Maybe I should have clarified my post to say "anti-Christians" instead of non-Christians... (if you look at the context you will see that this is my true intention and not NO LIE, esse.)

yet....

Hmmm. Let us read the topic of this thread....

"How many..." Um.

"Christians"

:o

"Are on this site"

Oh yeah...

The poll
:?

Well, I s'pose I interpretted that as Ame in her loving nature not wanting to disclude non-Christians or cause some kind of unnecessary division on the forum... (the whole ha-ha we're Christians and you're not type thing) Either way, my "negative posts" are always intentionally directed at negative posts. Thus, I DROP them on all things specifically anti-Christ, yet had no spiteful intentions towards "non-Christians" in general. Jesus was loving, most definitely, even towards his enemies (thank you Lord!!!)... But let's not confuse Christian love with tolerance...

[Cole5250]

I think christianty is condescending to woman,[/b] - SleepSpirit

Genesis 1:27 - So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

Saying that men and women are both created in God's image, how is that sexist? :huh:

Gotta love those pre-conceived notions about Christianity from people who don't bother to investigate it for themselves.

[CatLover]

Personally, I'm skeptic about there being any kind of "God" at all. So I guess you would call that Agnostic? I'm not anti-Christian, because at one point I was Christian. I still have some of the beliefs of theirs, but don't really think that a God could exist that could possibly allow so many bad things to happen.

Above = My Comment, Below = My Reply

Nice double-post, evangel. ;)

Originally posted by evangel+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(evangel)</div>To me, the idea that God simply looks into the future like a psychic or fortune teller would , then proceeds to make his decisons is demeaning, contradictory, and unbiblical. He has, I believe, even ordained every thought, hair, and grain of sand. He is God, not god.[/b]

If there was a God, I don't think it would be very demeaning to act upon what he sees is happening in the future. IE He sees a man is going to kill himself tomorrow. So, he makes the rock that he's going to jump off of into the water cease existence. Or maybe he removed a weapon he was going to kill himself with. I couldn't think of a better example, but I hope you get what I'm trying to say.

<!--QuoteBegin-evangel
My \"negative\" posts are merely responses to negative posts... And especially if you're implying that non-Christians are the same as \"anti\"-Christians, I will continue to drop, and drop some more.... Should I learn to be more loving and compassionate? I guess you're right to some extent... but to allow ANTI-Christian posts to stand without any reaction is not what I would call loving. That is simply tolerance, and not love and to tolerate evil is itself evil.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think anyone here is implying that non-Christians are the same are anti-Christians. And I think it is rather prejudiced to say that anti-Christians can't post on a certain topic. I'd love to see your reply to that ;)

Who says that it's unloving to tolerate someone anti-Christian? What if your best friend who said he was Christian and all that one day revealed to you he was anti-Christian? Has he not tolerated you for all these years? What's wrong with you tolerating him back? And how is tolerating something evil considered evil itself? In Christian beliefs I believe that you think there is a Devil. So, hasn't "God" tolerated this "Devil" for all these years? And apparently, the Devil is at the root of all evil, is he not? So you are going against your own words and saying that God himself is evil, and aren't you not supposed to do that?

So with that said, evangel, are you a Christian, or just someone who likes arguing on the Christian side?

None of the questions I have asked are rhetorical, I am awaiting your reply.

[CatLover]

Originally posted by SleepSpirit
haha
i know
What makes harry potter evil ?
what makes Pokemon evil ?

christians think everything is evil..

even dreams !!!!!

everything;s evil !
watch out
be afriad..
Follow ,me
be afraid @!

Also, sorry for the late reply and I know someone may have already posted this, but I really didn't want to go through 9 pages to make sure...

I am in no way claiming myself to be Christian, I felt that some of their beliefs needed to be clarified.

It isn't Harry Potter himself that is evil, it's what he's doing. Strict Christians do not believe in sorcery, witchcraft, wizardry, etc. etc. And he isn't really evil, he's just commiting a serious sin in practicing what this "God" has said not to do.

I don't know about the Pokemon being evil.

Dreams are not considered "evil" in the more strict Christian religion. Lucid Dreaming, however, supposedly has to do with witchcraft etc, breaking into things that were never meant to be played around with. Astral Projection is supposedly doing something that only God himself may do, which is rising out of your body and visiting the heavens.

You are overgeneralizing WAY too much in saying that Christians think everything is evil. If you were EVER a Christian at one time, then you will see that the way they think of things makes it very credible that the majority of things are considered "evil". They have been brought up and taught their entire life to believe there is a God, and we must do what he says because he has ultimate power over the world. They believe that he created everything in the universe, including the universe itself. It is very bad to question how he came abou, if he was just there, or if he was created by a higher being which no longer exists. Do you see what I am saying yet?

Having a religion gives a person something to believe in, because one with an instable mind would feel insecure if he/she had nothing to believe in, with all these questions. It can be overwhelming.

Some people even believe in the reincarnation. That once you die, your soul goes to take another place. I believe in reincarnation, slightly. If anyone wants to know my exact thoughts, I'll PM them to you, I don't want to arouse more unnecessary arguments.

I'm done rambling for the moment. I think...

:argue: :)

[Awaken4e1]

Man, I am in prime ground here so many souls so little time!

[Awaken4e1]

:goodjob:

[Awaken4e1]

I know its unfair for you guys to be so out numbered,

you know it only takes (two) of us to overcome a city. I dont think we have that many people here, but that's okay we'll be nice...

[Rakkantekimusouka]

Originally posted by Awaken4e1
Man, I am in prime ground here so many souls so little time!
Dude, if you're thinking of trying to convert me, be warned, I'll kick your ass.

Also, don't double, and especially triple post...:roll:

[Awaken4e1]

I don't think your foot will fit through my cable...

[Rakkantekimusouka]

:sorry:

[mistikal]

Yes, I was born and raised a Christian. I am open to and have learned some other religions too for example, buddism, islam etc. I have questions with christianity with issues relating to abortion (you may have been raped and expected to still keep the child) and being buried whole (as nowadays there is a pressure for organ donors etc). Also I believe the problems occur when there is a clash with the religion, culture and tradition or when religion is misinterpreted.

Generally speaking I believe most religions offer us something positive to believe in, and ask each individual to seek a higher level of consciousness within ourselves to do what is right. :D

[InTheMoment]

Awaken4e1 wrote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTEyou know it only takes (two) of us to overcome a city. [/b][/b][/quote]

It sounds more like a virus.

[Universal Mind]

Originally posted by Awaken4e1
Man, I am in prime ground here so many souls so little time!

I don't want to insult Christianity. I too used to be a Christian. But in the spirit of discussion and quest for more understanding, I tell you that it seems so illogical to me that when I analyze it, I sometimes sound like a total smart ass. If anybody will be offended by that, then read no further.

If an infinitely powerful being that is totally good were the master of the universe, then there would be no suffering. There are many arguments for why God would allow suffering, but none of them add up in my view. All of the arguments follow the pattern of, "If God didn't allow that suffering, then ____________ would be the case." The counter argument I have to every single one of those arguments is that an infinitely powerful being would not be bound by any law of reality that _________ would be the case. He could create the benefit and make ____________ not the case because he could control all of the laws of reality. ALL of them. Furthermore, free will, which I don't believe in in the first place, would not be worth even one person suffering for eternity, not even Hitler or Bin Laden, both of whom I would personally torture for a finite amount of time if I ever got the chance. In a picture with an infinitely powerful being that is totally good, there is no Hell. Thus, saving souls would not be necessary.

If the response to this is, "We just can't understand it," then you should understand why people don't see enough basis to believe in it. "We just can't understand it," could be used to argue in favor of any belief, no matter how bizarre. Not believing something that has that as its best argument is understable. If humans can see the understandability of it, then an infinitely intelligent being would be understanding of it.

I would prevent Hitler and Bin Laden from burning forever. Therefore, a being more moral and loving than I am would prevent it, even at the sacrifice of free will, especially if he is infinitely powerful and could provide the nonexistence of Hell without sacrificing free will.

Bill HIcks, my favorite stand up comedian, summed up the idea of Hell as, "Eternal suffering for questioning God's infinite love." Is that an accurate summary?

[Genjyo]

I am also a Christian!

[quantumparity]

Right now I'm with Christianity, Buddhism, and Hinduism. until the other religions find the truth. We are one life and death. Materialism is Evil. God has an Evil side. You can't have rightousness without evil, unless you have past, present, and future. then there is what was once evil and what is now enlightened. That is forgiveness. Abuse is Evil it renders everything meaningless. No Messiah ever said establish a religion. They just said follow there way, the truth. Basically there all the same. God want's Spiritualism, not an abuse of Materialism. Such as a Country vs a Country. We are all different therefore we are all the same. All Emotions sixth sense. The Soul. I take bit's and peices of religion and make my own ideas at times. Still I would never push these religions, and I always look for the Truth. Those are not my religions, but my religions of choice. :shock:

[Gezus]

I'm a christian, just that I haven't gone to church in a while.

[Placebo]

UniversalMind, what do you make of this one ? :

In the garden of eden, many angels began to wonder whether God is worthy of being worshipped. And whether man could perhaps just take care of himself. No divine beings necessary.
In that aim, they rebelled, and caused the ruckus in the garden (led by ol' Nick)

Now, what was God to do? He could
a) Kill them
B) Brainwash them
c) Prove them wrong

[/b](a)[/b] is pointless because if he killed them all, he'd only be delaying a rebellion at a later stage by the rest of the angels. If he killed all of them, then the next bunch may still bring the same problem.
(B) is fairly poor too, you can liken it to turning them into mindless zombies, in this matter. He'd be fiddling with their minds to do what he wanted. It wouldn't be my 'style' either
© sucks, but is about the only thing he could do. Allow them to prove themselves wrong or right. Then everyone can get on with whatever little game gods and angels play and never have to doubt this issue again.

So, how do you prove that man can't rule himself? Let him try, and then pick up the pieces afterwards. And get rid of the idiots who caused all the trouble in the first place.

IE. this may be exactly what is happening. And 'Armaggedon' is that day of 'Okay, enough is enough, you've screwed up well enough now'

PS: (disclaimer) I do not necessarily believe in the above, nor disbelieve it. At this stage I'm pretty undecided in the area of religion.

[Awaken4e1]

Originally posted by Placebo


So, how do you prove that man can't rule himself? Let him try, and then pick up the pieces afterwards. And get rid of the idiots who caused all the trouble in the first place.



It’s amazing that people give anthropomorphic qualities to a non-human entity. Or, that he would be subjected to human emotion as we are. To think that a supreme being has peaty motives as hued man does is an infinitesimal exercise. At the end of God’s plan, Man will rule over all things which God intentioned from the beginning.

Gen 1:27 And God prepareth the man in His image; in the image of God He prepared him, a male and a female He prepared them.
Gen 1:28 And God blesseth them, and God saith to them, `Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it, and rule over fish of the sea, and over fowl of the heavens, and over every living thing that is creeping upon the earth.'

The Rev.

[OpheliaBlue]

I'm not a Christian, but I was raised and baptized Latter-Day Saint (Mormon)

now I'm atheist

will be interesting to see how many once most active folk have voted

[Awaken4e1]

I was just wondering "what changed your mind"? about God?

[spoon]

Originally posted by Awaken4e1
It’s amazing that people give anthropomorphic qualities to a non-human entity. Or, that he would be subjected to human emotion as we are.

How a christian can say that is amazing. Since you're in a bible quotin' mood: (emphasis is mine)
Ex 15:3 The Lord is a man of war the Lord is his name

Num 12:8 With him I will speak face to face, openly, and not in riddles; and he will see the form of the Lord

Ex 24:10 and they saw the God of Israel, and there was under his feetsomething like a pavement made of sapphire, clear like the heaven itself.

Gen 6:6 The Lord regretted

Ex 20:5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God[/b]

The entire bible is one huge exercise in anthropomorphism, and who really cares what a bunch of bronze age shepards thought god would look/be like?

[Rakkantekimusouka]

Originally posted by spoon
The entire bible is one huge exercise in anthropomorphism, and who really cares what a bunch of bronze age shepards thought god would look/be like?
TSOAL, I love you spooner! :hug:

[Awaken4e1]

It’s a shame that people are so egger to bash the Word of God without knowing the purpose of the teachings of OLD and New Testament respectively. There is, as the slogan states; “No Fear” of God in this society, to the point of brandishing it on the décor of cars, for all to see. I have learned that the “God we see; is the image we’ll be!” If we believe that God is angry, and wrathful then that is how we will be. Just as children mimic the actions of their parents. It’s so sad that so many people are in such a hurry to mock God without ever really knowing the real God in person. Let me say this clearly Man will always fail us, if we look to them for those things which only God can give. Man has been worshipped to the point of deity, seeing the world through the arrogance of their own limited understanding of the realm around them. It’s very sad.

The Rev.

[spoon]

It’s a shame that people are so egger to bash the Word of God without knowing the purpose of the teachings of OLD and New Testament respectively. [/b] The purpose of these texts is completely subjective, as you can probably tell from the myriad of different interpretations available. What makes you extra-qualified to \"know the true purpose\" of these texts? Have you got any qualifications in anthropology or classical literature? You're operating on the assumption that your interpretation of texts, 2000 and 4000 years old respectively, is correct - why should your opinion hold any more weight than anyone else's?

Afterall, every religion has its \"true believers\" who know the \"real purpose\" of their respective holy texts. Are they all correct?

It’s so sad that so many people are in such a hurry to mock God without ever really knowing the real God in person. [/b] Again, why is your idea of \"the real god\" better than anyone elses? A hindu believes they know the real god, is their belief as correct as yours?

And what does \"knowing the real god in person\" entail? Do you hear voices in your head? Schizophrenic people get that too.

Let me say this clearly Man will always fail us, if we look to them for those things which only God can give. [/b]

We've done pretty well for ourselves. How has man failed? For example, it was once the belief that the earth was the centre of the universe, a belief fully supported by the bible and christians - one of those things that only god can give us if you will (this was in a time where knowledge of the universe outside of theology was virtually impossible). Man managed to see through that, and developed several branches of maths in the process.

I would say that is an example of man not succeeding, and an example of "something only god can give" failing. Do you have many examples of the failure of man compared to religion?

But the point of my last posting was to point out the anthropomorphic nature of the deity of the bible. Do you admit that he (which would be another example of anthropomorphism in the bible) is a product of an ancient people extending their own culture/form onto a belief in the supernatural. Due to this, do you also regard the bible as an "infinitesimal exercise", as you put it. Why/why not?

-spoon

[bradybaker]

Originally posted by Awaken4e1
Man has been worshipped to the point of deity, seeing the world through the arrogance of their own limited understanding of the realm around them. It’s very sad.
Now there's something I agree with. But for very different reasons than you I suspect. (The majority of the world still believes that they were created with a purpose and in the image of a divine creator who loves them you know).

[AirRick101]

WEow, and not too long ago I remember you remarking that you aren't even on the same page, same chapter, or same book (which I thought was a hilarious way of describing your differing intellectual positions.

When I saw that bradybaker made the last reply to this thread, I was all "Bradybaker is Christian now!?" But no, I was wrong. The second Brady converts, I'm going to know something fishy is up! though that probably won't happen

Much of the time it is true, that man worships himself too much, but the contrary is also true, that man doesn't believe in his own power. I see it particularly evident in the personalities that do not encourage another to grow. Someone who wants to stunt another's growth in order to appear stronger is the weakest way of growth. Plus, that eliminates challenges from competition.

[Awaken4e1]

Originally posted by AirRick101
*I see it particularly evident in the personalities that do not encourage another to grow. *Someone who wants to stunt another's growth in order to appear stronger is the weakest way of growth. *Plus, that eliminates challenges from competition.

It is true that much of what the church teaches, and in many other venues, sole purpose is to place one class of people of over another i.e. Christians over the rest of the world, solely, for the fulfillment of the individual ego. Take a good look at most televangelist they are in constant competition of your money, and not for your soul.

The Rev. :cry:

[bradybaker]

Originally posted by Awaken4e1
Man has been worshipped to the point of deity, seeing the world through the arrogance of their own limited understanding of the realm around them. It’s very sad.
Since you completely ignored my first response. Let me elaborate in hopes of a reply.

Can you not see that religion and spirituality is the ultimate worship of humanity? We put ourselves on a pedestal over everything else in existence, stating that we and we alone were created in the image of the divine creator.

We and we alone have eternal souls that transcend physical existence and, if we follow the rules, get to chill out with God in the Kingdom of Heaven when our physical lives end.

This I find pretty miraculous considering that we're made of the same damn stuff as dirt and spruce trees. Unlucky for them I guess.

Religion is the height of arrogance and conceit.

[Awaken4e1]

Originally posted by bradybaker

Since you completely ignored my first response. Let me elaborate in hopes of a reply.

Can you not see that religion and spirituality is the ultimate worship of humanity? We put ourselves on a pedestal over everything else in existence, stating that we and we alone were created in the image of the divine creator. *

We and we alone have eternal souls that transcend physical existence and, if we follow the rules, get to chill out with God in the Kingdom of Heaven when our physical lives end.

This I find pretty miraculous considering that we're made of the same damn stuff as dirt and spruce trees. Unlucky for them I guess.

Religion is the height of arrogance and conceit.

Please understand that it is not ourselves who have given us our position in God’s plan, but it is God whom has given it to us as a gift of creation. It is true that most worship Man but not as a design of the creator, but of self (humanism.) Most commonly satan worship, witchcraft, sorcery, and atheism.

This is all hued-man designed worship. As you’ve stated in your post “we and we alone were created in the image of the divine creator. We and we alone have eternal souls that transcend physical existence and, if we follow the rules, get to chill out with God in the Kingdom of Heaven when our physical lives end.

” I believe that it is far more than just following a set of rules, but it is the drawing of our spirit to the creator, and as a result of that drawing, man develops personal, and love based relationship with the creator. Luck as nothing to do with whom God places in the rank of His Kingdom.

The Rev.

[Awaken4e1]

Originally posted by spoon


The entire bible is one huge exercise in anthropomorphism, and who really cares what a bunch of bronze age shepards thought god would look/be like?

It must be understood that the purpose of the “old” testament is to learn from the mistakes of the age in which it was written, and not to be used as a guide post to live by, it is to teach Man
“ that those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it ” It is not for example, but for comparison of what those whom lived by the sword where condemned to suffer because of their ignorance, and rebellion. The Lord presented Himself as “Lord of War” to defend His people against Pharaoh and his army where pursuing the children of Israel. God is a jealous God when it comes to His “people” Touch “not” mine anointed!

The Rev.

[InTheMoment]

I'm still curious as to why no one (on the creationist side) has addressed Spoon's previous statement.

Spoon wrote: (on more than one occasion)
Again, why is your idea of \"the real god\" better than anyone elses? A hindu believes they know the real god, is their belief as correct as yours? *

And what does \"knowing the real god in person\" entail? Do you hear voices in your head? Schizophrenic people get that too. [/b]
This is one, of many, reasons why I don't buy into any particular religion.

[Awaken4e1]

There are specific criteria which are followed to hear the “Real God” and there can’t be any short-cuts, or selfish intents of the heart. This is why there only a few who are chosen which hear God. It is not a matter of being better than anyone else. It is a matter of knowing what to do to hear Him. If the heart is doubtful or of questionable intent the spirit will not revel himself to that heart because it is encumbered by carnal desires.

The Rev.

[spoon]

There are specific criteria which are followed to hear the “Real God” and there can’t be any short-cuts, or selfish intents of the heart. This is why there only a few who are chosen which hear God. It is not a matter of being better than anyone else. It is a matter of knowing what to do to hear Him. If the heart is doubtful or of questionable intent the spirit will not revel himself to that heart because it is encumbered by carnal desires. [/b]

Ok, since that completely avoided the question I'll restate it.

Why is your idea of the \"real god\" the correct idea? What makes it any more valid than a hindu's (or any religions) idea of the \"real god\". All religions have specific criteria which have to be followed to know/hear/experience the \"real god\", what makes christianity's critera more valid than any other?

And in addition to that, what makes your \"hearing the real god\" any different than a schizophrenic person believing the same thing.

The Lord presented Himself as “Lord of War” to defend His people against Pharaoh and his army where pursuing the children of Israel. God is a jealous God when it comes to His “people” Touch “not” mine anointed![/b] Thats great. But it's still anthromophism, and do you still hold that anthromorphism \"is an infinitesimal exercise\"?

It must be understood that the purpose of the “old” testament is to learn from the mistakes of the age in which it was written, and not to be used as a guide post to live by, it is to teach Man
“ that those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it ”[/b] Where is this purpose stated? It sounds to me like you just made it up. But that's cool, we can disregard all the stupid laws of the OT. Why did you have a problem with homosexuality again?

It is not for example, but for comparison of what those whom lived by the sword where condemned to suffer because of their ignorance, and rebellion. [/b] Yet the chosen people who were blessed by yahweh also lived by the sword, the difference is?

[Awaken4e1]

When the Lord manifests Himself (He) must by nature appear in a manner which is consistent to the context of His word, and the fulfillment of the prophetic. But, with every appearance God must work within the realm of the supernatural thereby appear in the manifestation of miracles.

Only the appearance of anthropomorphism could be construed but they are not His nature, but only to the limited understanding of man believes them to be as such. As Christ stated for the sake of those around Him; “because of the multitude that is standing by, I said it, that they may believe that Thou didst send me.

” God’s appearances are always in a manner which will be received by those involved, but this is not anthropomorphism but is only the appearance of what is assumed to be such. God is a non hued being, therefore He can not posses hued-man characteristics.

The Rev.

[Awaken4e1]

Anthropomorphism is an act of giving non-human entities, hu-man characteristics. Hu-man beings do this to relate to those things around which are not hu-man in nature. It is done to pets, property, machines, and everything that holds a relational aspect to our life; yes even God is given these hued-man characteristics. He is "not" hued in nature!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropomorph...sm#Common_usage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropomorphism#Common_usage)

The Rev.

[SleepSpirit]

Booooooooooooo

[Rakkantekimusouka]

Originally posted by Awaken4e1
Anthropomorphism is an act of giving non-human entities, hu-man characteristics. Hu-man beings do this to relate to those things around which are not hu-man in nature. It is done to pets, property, machines, and everything that holds a relational aspect to our life; yes even God is given these hued-man characteristics. He is \"not\" hued in nature!
You sound like a Ferengi...'cept they say "hu-mon". :P

[Placebo]

As I mentioned in the other thread - the word 'human' has nothing to do with hues or colours.

[Awaken4e1]

Originally posted by Placebo
As I mentioned in the other thread - the word 'human' has nothing to do with hues or colours.

In God, man is, then man manifested into flesh, a pure spirit placed into an enclosure, which as a result brought mixture into his soul, prior he was of pure light, white, and without variation, but now he has been diluted by darkness, so man has been taken from light, and has been exposed to varying degrees of darkness, just as a pure light, or color is hued into another light or color, so also has the soul of man been hued down into a lesser mixture of light.

The Rev.

[Placebo]

Alright, as long as we all know that you mean it as an understanding or even a kind of pun., I'm happy :)
It's unrelated to the real root meaning of the word itself, is all.

[Awaken4e1]

Originally posted by Placebo
Alright, as long as we all know that you mean it as an understanding or even a kind of pun., I'm happy :)
It's unrelated to the real root meaning of the word itself, is all.

It is a commonly used word, applied to a spiritual condition which is a true definition of the used of the word under this 'light' pun intended.

[Amethyst Star]

Did anyone actually read the first post? I was hoping to assess the number of Christians are on this site. I don't mean to be a stick in the mud, but it's hard to keep track with off-topic discussion.

[Awaken4e1]

I’m sure they did, and that is why they came in and messed things up…

[Amethyst Star]

I've seen a lot of new faces browsing the R/S Forum and so I thought I would revive this and see how this continues. Please keep in mind, though, that my origonal intent was to try and ascertain numbers rather than spark off an arguement. So, with that said, yes or no?

:)

[Gawain]

Roman Catholic, with much education in the religion. I've seen loads of stuff lately designed to attack my faith (Anti-Catholic websites and the like), and I thought it through... those actually gave me more reason to believe and strengthened my faith. How odd.

I LD, I see nothing at all strange, weird, immoral about it. Its just mixing imagination and a dream together. Its something in your head.

Thanks for reviving it... I didn't know this topic existed and was a little timid to go out there and say it.


One more thing: Not to sound mercenary, but what happens when we die? If there is no god, then I won't be punished and sent to a hell for believing in one. But if there is one, you'd think that I'd get a better prize than if I didn't believe in one. So when I die, I'm looking at good or nothing. I believe in the good. There should be no hell for me.

[spoon]

Originally posted by Gawain
One more thing: Not to sound mercenary, but what happens when we die? If there is no god, then I won't be punished and sent to a hell for believing in one. But if there is one, you'd think that I'd get a better prize than if I didn't believe in one. So when I die, I'm looking at good or nothing. I believe in the good. There should be no hell for me. Uh.. pascal's wager is a crummy reason to believe in god. For example: if you're taking the non-existance and the existance of god as equally likely scenarios - then it is equally likely that any god exists. You've still got the same chances of being wrong whatever you choose. Everyone loses.

And do you really think a god who condemns people to eternity in hell for simply not believing isn't going to do the same to someone who was just believing to cover all their bases?

As I said, pascals wager sucks.

-spoon

[Gawain]

That is true, but thankfully that isn't my first reason to believe in God. I've got many more reasons, I just spared the rest of babbling that would ensue... unless anyone wants to hear it.

[.jared.]

Originally posted by Gawain
That is true, but thankfully that isn't my first reason to believe in God. I've got many more reasons, I just spared the rest of babbling that would ensue... unless anyone wants to hear it.

Although i am a Christian. I would like to hear it. As i am interested in hearing different peoples viewpoints.

[Gawain]

Originally posted by .jared.


Although i am a Christian. I would like to hear it. As i am interested in hearing different peoples viewpoints.

The way thats worded sounds like Catholics and Christians are completely different things. One more thing I want to put out, we were the first Christians.(gasp.) Christians believe in Christ, which we most obviously do.

Another idea that gives me reason to believe is Big Bang/evolution relationship. I've read the crap about how the Big Bang ended up in our chaotic world, and a freak bolt of lightning hit a rock next to water and created algae, which crawled out of the sea and became intellectual over the course of thousands of years. As I said, I think thats crap, and I'm reminded of that everytime I look at my hand. We cannot replicate anything as technical as the human body (yet) using raw materials such as metal and plastic. We've come close and made clunky hydraulic hands, but its just not close. I don't believe we came from a freak charged rock. Someone or something designed everything. How did the Big Bang 'bang' anyways? Something sparked it. Now, whatever is at the Universe's controls designed us and guided us to where we are today. Are we completely right in the way things are? Hell no. Thats why we call the idea 'faith'. I was born Catholic, but was given a chance to Confirm my faith in Confirmation. This faith to me makes the most sense out of the ones I have explored. Being a Christian, I believe that Christ is 'the Son of God'. He was benevolent, and is proven so by casting out 'demons' and healing the sick (for physical proof). This in turn gives me reason to believe that the God-like figure is benevolent, and thus doesn't punish us for what we don't know (which is a lot). He designed us to have instinct (instinct for survival so we don't just give up that easily), and a conscience (if we have a correctly developed one, it gives us a tendency to choose a moral path, which helps lead us to a better outcome, and explains why the Earth isn't a chaotic massacre where we kill like barbarians.) This at least suggests there's some force out there.

Shall I continue? I can continue rambling on... and I'll take a moment to say that I am most certainly not trying to convert anyone. I strongly respect everyone's aith or lack of one. Someone just asked for a description.

[.jared.]

Originally posted by Gawain


The way thats worded sounds like Catholics and Christians are completely different things. One more thing I want to put out, we were the first Christians.(gasp.) Christians believe in Christ, which we most obviously do.



I didn't know you were catholic. When i said "although i am a christian" i meant. "although i believe in god". I didn't mean any offence.

I have exams (which i am freaking out about right now) so i didn't read your post beyond the first paragraph. I will read it in 2 days. I am interested in reading it.

[spoon]

Originally posted by gawain
Another idea that gives me reason to believe is Big Bang/evolution relationship. There is no relationship between the big bang and evolution. Evolution only applies as long as life exists. The big bang is (one of many) theories about how the universe began. Life was a long time coming.

How did the Big Bang 'bang' anyways? Something sparked it.[/b] If you think that logic invalidates the big bang, try applying it to god as well.

I've read the crap about how the Big Bang ended up in our chaotic world, and a freak bolt of lightning hit a rock next to water and created algae, which crawled out of the sea and became intellectual over the course of thousands of years. [/b] I think you're talking about Miller-Urey's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller-Urey) theory of the origin of life. Which isn't lightning hitting a rock and creating algae, it's more lightning hitting a gas and forming amino acids, which are a precursor of life. You're thinking too big with algae, it might not seem much to us but it is rather advanced if you're talking the origin of life. But anyway - abiogenesis (origin of life from non-living material) doesn't matter to evolution. It happened, as life is here, evolution kicked in after it happened.

As I said, I think thats crap, and I'm reminded of that everytime I look at my hand. We cannot replicate anything as technical as the human body (yet) using raw materials such as metal and plastic. We've come close and made clunky hydraulic hands, but its just not close.... Someone or something designed everything.[/b] You're thinking too big again. Evolution did not just sit down and invent a hand. The mechanisms of evolution (mutation coupled with natural selection) enabled complex systems (such as a hand) to rise progressively. And as for everything requiring a designer, if you do look at evolution in any depth you'll see that this simple natural mechanism can give rise to amazing adaptations and "designs" that we could not duplicate. You can see it in virii adapting to drugs, tests of evolution in the lab, evolutionary algorithms in computer science - the mechanisms which evolution are based on have been proven to give solid "design". More on design:

He designed us to have instinct (instinct for survival so we don't just give up that easily)[/b] The instinct to survive is one of the most fundamental parts of natural selection. Anything without such an instinct would have died off fairly quickly.

and a conscience (if we have a correctly developed one, it gives us a tendency to choose a moral path, which helps lead us to a better outcome, and explains why the Earth isn't a chaotic massacre where we kill like barbarians.) This at least suggests there's some force out there. [/b] There is a pathway for the evolution of morals in that as groups of organisms get more social and try to perform complex tasks they require more "rules" of social behaviour to be successful. Successful groups live longer, breed more, and get selected over less viable groups.

So anyway, hope I've shown a little bit how the apparent design of the universe can be attributed to natural means. A designer is by no means implied merely by the existence of life and/or the universe.

[Gawain]

I think you'll get it. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=sxMTrgWRaNE&search=United%20States%20of%20Whatever) :wink:

[spoon]

and here I thought someone was up for a constructive discussion

[Gawain]

No, I'd love to discuss it... maybe tomorrow.. Its passed my bedtime.
If you still want to discuss it, I'll be happy to do so.

But I thought the clip was funny.

(Besides, this isn't quite the topic to discuss it in)

[ccrinbama]

Not a Christian.
I was raised one, but at age ten started finding some problems with the concept of religion as a whole. There were some specific problems I found with Christianity, but only because I was a Christian at the time. By eleven, I was no longer a Christian.
And that's pretty much the shortest description of my religious standpoint that I've ever given.

[Awaken4e1]

Originally posted by ccrinbama
Not a Christian.
I was raised one, but at age ten started finding some problems with the concept of religion as a whole. There were some specific problems I found with Christianity, but only because I was a Christian at the time. By eleven, I was no longer a Christian.
And that's pretty much the shortest description of my religious standpoint that I've ever given.

I'm sorry being a Christian is not like changing your clothes, you don't just take it off when you feel like it.

If you truly were a Christian then you still are one, even if you are in rebellion.

O' being raised a Christian dosen't make you one, any more then living in your garage makes you a car...

The Rev.

[ccrinbama]

Apologies, let me rephrase.
My parents raised me to be a Christian.
For a while, I truly believed in the idea of Jesus Christ, the Bible, etc. It was quite comforting, and I think from time to time of how simple it was to just believe.
As I grew older, I started to actually stand back and look at my religion from the viewpoint of one not completely submerged in it.
It is there that I found the concept of religion in general quite disturbing, and realized that certain aspects of Christianity made no sense to me at all, and were based solely on blind faith. Illogical blind faith at that.
I denounced my title as a Christian, and it was a personal thing rather than a public thing.
So, I believe that qualifies me as no longer being a Christian, not to mention the fact that I do not believe that the person it is named for was anything more than a normal person, much less the son of God.
I am sorry if my earlier statement was to vague.

Of course, if you want to still call me a Christian, go for it. I do hope that all Christians do not have the same viewpoint as I do though, or the religion is going to fall through fairly quickly.

[Gawain]

Amazing how there are 2.1 billion crazy people out there believing in Christianity which has survived 2000 years onOriginally posted by ccrinbama
Illogical blind faith Wow, actually there are only 1.1 billion sane people. How in the world are they gonna keep those crazy religious people in line?




This is based on these findings (http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html). I just picked out the first site on the search.

Please, I'm insane, explain to me why it is illogical so that I might piece my sanity back together again.

[ccrinbama]

Where did you get insane from?
I never called it insane, just illogical.
Better question, why are you getting so defensive?

Do I think that billions of people are members of religions that have illogical concepts, thereby making the blind faith with which they believe these concepts inherently illogical as well? Yes, I do.

Does that make them insane, ignorant, or weak-minded people? Not in the least bit. It merely means that they can bring themselves to believe in things which I cannot, probably because I find them illogical...

[.jared.]

Originally posted by Awaken4e1


I'm sorry being a Christian is not like changing your clothes, you don't just take it off when you feel like it.

If you truly were a Christian then you still are one, even if you are in rebellion.

O' being raised a Christian dosen't make you one, any more then living in your garage makes you a car...

The Rev.

Please back this up. Do you have scripture that re-enforces it? I'm not saying there isn't simply asking if you can back it with scripture?

[ccrinbama]

Originally posted by Awaken4e1

I'm sorry being a Christian is not like changing your clothes, you don't just take it off when you feel like it.

If you truly were a Christian then you still are one, even if you are in rebellion.
The Rev.

So going back.

Christianity is a set of religious beliefs. Beliefs.

If one's beliefs changed to something seperate than that of Christianity, and they are still a Christian... that would mean that being a Christian isn't based on one's religious beliefs.

What if I say that going outside and busting the windows out of cars makes me feel close to my God? While we're at it, why don't I say that Ender's Shadow is what I now deem my own religious text. Also, not screaming profanity at the top of your lungs while juggling flaming apples and throwing them at innocent victims in at least six public places per day is now - according to my beliefs - a mortal sin!

So... would that person still be a Christian? Because I've got a cousin who should be converted.

[Awaken4e1]

Originally posted by ccrinbama


So going back.

Christianity is a set of religious beliefs. Beliefs.

If one's beliefs changed to something seperate than that of Christianity, and they are still a Christian... that would mean that being a Christian isn't based on one's religious beliefs.

What if I say that going outside and busting the windows out of cars makes me feel close to my God? While we're at it, why don't I say that Ender's Shadow is what I now deem my own religious text. Also, not screaming profanity at the top of your lungs while juggling flaming apples and throwing them at innocent victims in at least six public places per day is now - according to my beliefs - a mortal sin!

So... would that person still be a Christian? Because I've got a cousin who should be converted.

First, a Christian would hear the voice of the Spirit, and obey...not to do the act...

Being a Christian, is a internal change, not an act so to speak, it is what changes your want to do what you do...

1Co 3:17 If any man1536 defile5351 the3588 temple3485 of God,2316 him5126 shall God2316 destroy;5351 for1063 the3588 temple3485 of God2316 is2076 holy,40 which3748 temple ye5210 are.2075

[Leo Volont]

Actually, its not a good question.

Most Protestants actually reject the Teachings of Jesus as they throw in 100% behind Paul, who is actually the Antichrist.

But they think of themselves as Christians.

So where does that leave Jewish Messianists who think of Jesus as the Messiah, but who can't call themselves "Christians" because that is what the Followers of the Antichrist call themselves.

yes, it is an Odd World where the Followers of the Antichrist have monopolized the term "Christian" but there you have it.

[Leo Volont]

Indeed... Protestants are SO Antichrist, that you only have to review American Protestantism's solid support of Israeli Zionism to suspect that something is very very wrong. Afterall, the Israeli Zionists could not be more adament in their insistent that Jesus WAS NOT the Messiah, and yet America Protestants are absolutely untiring in their channelling of financial, military and political support for those who would certainly crucify Jesus again, if they had a chance... or in modern terms, simply shoot a missile down from the sky and kill him and a handful of innocent bystanders besides.

so, if the Protestant "Christians" are so willing to ally themselves with the murderers of Jesus, and those who deny Him as Messiah, then, really, how do they dare call themselves "Christians"?

[APM]

Originally posted by Leo Volont
Actually, its not a good question.

Most Protestants actually reject the Teachings of Jesus as they throw in 100% behind Paul, who is actually the Antichrist.

But they think of themselves as Christians.

So where does that leave Jewish Messianists who think of Jesus as the Messiah, but who can't call themselves "Christians" because that is what the Followers of the Antichrist call themselves.

yes, it is an Odd World where the Followers of the Antichrist have monopolized the term "Christian" but there you have it.
Why are you so sure that Paul is the Anticrist, Leo?

[SwordOfGod]

Totally Christian, totally into my One Triune God and the Bible...

[SwordOfGod]

Most Protestants actually reject the Teachings of Jesus as they throw in 100% behind Paul, who is actually the Antichrist. [/b]

Forgive me, this is absolute bullshit, I consider myself a student of all denominations (meaning I reject many doctrines and except some) and while it is true that some denominations who call themselves protestant teach quite a bit from the pauline documents(protestants are an extremely diverse group). I have never seen any denomination go so far as to reject the Gospels, and minor letters, and Revelations and Hebrews, all of which talk of the teachings of Jesus. Usually I do not defend the various modern denominations because they are all corrupt(in my opinion) to some extent, but this is a ludicrous statement! Also, please give evidence that paul is THE AntiChrist.

so, if the Protestant "Christians" are so willing to ally themselves with the murderers of Jesus, and those who deny Him as Messiah, then, really, how do they dare call themselves "Christians"?[/b]

Need I remind you that neither the Romans nor the Jews are responsible for Christ's death but instead all who have sinned, for it was because of us that He chose to die?

I'm sorry being a Christian is not like changing your clothes, you don't just take it off when you feel like it.

If you truly were a Christian then you still are one, even if you are in rebellion.
The Rev.[/b]

Actually, with respect, I think your incorrect. Hebrews 6 gives warning against falling away or renouncing our relationship with God. Hebrews 10: 26 reiterates this.

If he has truly once been saved and has succesfully severed himself from God, this is considerably more than simply "turning your back" and apparently involves a concious decision, then he is damned according to the inspired Word of God. That said I think that this is unlikely, from the lightness of his message he probably was not a "saved" christian, that is, he did not fully give his life to Christ and certainly did not have a chance at becoming that small group of people that can truly call themselves ex-christians.

Note: I have intentionally quoted directly from the Bible to make it clear that I am not judging and therefore breaking Jesus' commandment to not judge.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by APM

Why are you so sure that Paul is the Anticrist, Leo?

Remember that Christ said one could tell a Tree by its Fruits. Well, everything bad that has come to pass for the Catholic Church and then for the Protestants Denominations have sourced out of the Doctrines of Paul.

Religion's business is not to condone sin, and when you get down to business what is Salvation but a huge license to sin.

Then we have just who Paul was. Paul was a Pharisee who had been one of those who had persecuted Christ all through His Ministry, and then we have Paul's Teaching that Christ was NOT meant to be the Messiah, but had come only to Die so that both Jews and Gentiles could Sin and escape the Law and get away with it.

And just who benefits by the forgiveness of Sin. Righteous People do not come out ahead. Righteous People only have to tolerate all of the Sinners that now can sin with the full assurance that there will no longer be any Eternal Consequences.

But what about the Judgement that Christ promised. What cannot both believe Christ AND paul. There is either a Judgment or not. Paul's Doctrine of Salvation precludes Judgment. Thats not right!

And then we have the 4 Prophecies -- 3 from Christ and 1 from Simeon the Last Prophet of the Jewish Dispensation. Christ had quite fortold that there would come a Wolf in Sheep's Clothing (whom we wouild know by his Fruits.. not to mix metaphors.. but that was Christ, not myself), there would be Weeds mixed into the Wheat of the Teachings of the Church, and there would be a Wide Way to Destruction. And then Simeon had prophecized at the Presentation of Christ as an Infant that this Jesus would be contradicted. And was he not? Both the Catholic Church and especially the Protestant Churches almost entirely endorse the Doctrines of Paul while shoving aside almost the complete content of Christ's actual Teachings. And the Messianic Mission was almost entirely dropped, and people still insist upon blaming the Catholic Church for having instinctively reasserted the Messianic Mission under the impulses of the Saints and the Blessed Virgin Mary's Apparitions... oh, and Simeon stated in a Second Prophecy that we would know the Secret Hearts of the Enemies of the Truth by their hatred for Mary. And it is a singular distinction of all those who follow Paul that in the very proportion as they pay allegiance to Paul so it is that they have contempt or disdain for the Blessed Virgin.

Indeed, it uncovers a huge doctrinal split within the Catholic Church, as the Secular Bishops almost all follow the Doctrines and Tendencies of Paul, as we can see from the Pedophile Scandals -- they insist that All Sins should be forgiven, and so that is what we can expect from them, is Unashamed Sin. But the Religious Orders, which have throughout History struggled for independence from the interference of any of the Secular Bishops, they have a decided preference for Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

And there we need to understand that no Mother in the Universe would ever raise her Son so that he could be murdered so that scumbag perverts and thieves could laugh at righteousness and overwhelm the gates of heaven on the day of judgment. The Blessed Virgin Mary would never have intended that Her Son's Life be Sacrificed so that the Legions of Hell could sweep into Heaven and mock the Righteousness of God and the Saints.


Oh... and for a larger exposition of indictments against Paul, check out Scott Nelson's interesting Book of Messianic Judaism --- http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/#Outline%20Mark

[Leo Volont]

Dear Sword of God,

Well, if Paul is not the Antichrist then answer this -- is Salvation the Forgiveness of Sins or isn't it? And if Sins are Forgiven, then cannot every Demon, Devil, Raper or Thief confess that they should enter Heaven by the Magic Saving Powers of the Blood of Christ?

Well, if only Evil should benefit from Salvation, then should we not suspect something seriously wrong with such a Doctrine.

You know, Religions should be, well, Religious, that is, moral and spiritual. But the Religion of Salvation tends toward the very opposite direction. Paul instructed that Morality in the sense of Good Works should be entirely rejected. And then, in both the Catholic Bishops and the practices of the Protestant Denominations, there is a total absence of any Spiritual Practice or discipline. Salvation is instant and automatic. Paulists have refined their Doctrines to insist that 'Grace' is free and unconditional with all the other benefits that accrue from having murdered the Messiah. All this while every Religion that still produces Actual Saints insist upon Spiritual Practice and Discipline.

[Amethyst Star]

So much for a yes, no, or maybe question. :rolleyes:

[odds]

I practice and study quite a few religions, so I consider myself a Christian as well as many other things.
It's quite a large misunderstanding that one has to commit to just one-- they're all basically one, anyways. :)

Look at Buddhism and Christianity, for example. Same message, different manifestations!

[Tsen]

Yeah, except for the part about burning in hell for "having other gods before me". Remember, the Christian God is "a jealous god".

Christianity+Other Religions=Not working out so well.

[godfather89]

Catholic.. but I follow the word of Jesus not so much the Church. Because, Christ founded christianity and its branches. The Church just chooses because there man. Christ did it because he is man and god. All Moral...

[shark!]

...spoken like a true catholic.

[King and God]

I voted no; I'm not Christian and I do not follow any of the other religions either.

[shark!]

i think i voted no too.

[Richter]

I'm a christian.

As for salvation, the fact that one can be saved regardless of their actions as long as they believe in Christ dying for their sins...

Anybody who uses that as an excuse to sin is... due.

To me at least, that's the true test of a Christian; temptation. Yeah, you're allowed to make mistakes, but will you try be a good person anyways? Besides, as a christian I believe god isn't some omnipitent yet mindless being who judges in black and white; if you sin on purpose believing you'll get away with it, you're wrong both spiritually and on earth physically.

As for good christans getting nothing for their kindness, and sinners getting a free pass... Again, I tend to believe that God isn't stupid. One has to really be sorry for their sins as well; you can't kill somebody and then half-assed fake regret and expect that you'll fool God.

I honestly don't know Paul's teachings well, so I'm not qualified to speak about them, and they very well may be flawed or even anti-christian. I don't know. I do know that anybelief taken to an extreme is generally a mistake. Yes, even Christianity. EspeciallyChristianity.

Finally, all any Christian knows is what's in books and passed-down stories. In other words, it's just faith that everything isn't a lie and that there's something smart out there. So, in reality, nobody's views on Christianity should supercede anybody elses. It's all personal anyways. It's when religion is taken on the offensive, forced onto others and in some cases taken away. That to me is the worst possible thing a person can do.

[FluBB]

i am christian, a mormon. some people do not consider us christians for some bizzare reason which i cannot understand, but yes we are christians.

[Marvo]

I am an atheist to a certain extent, as I still believe in reincarnation.

[Howie]

I am not a christian.
I do feel that religion and lucid dreaming can co exist. :bigteeth:

[Amethyst Star]

I just want to keep this topic up for people who wish to answer who haven't had a chance. Thanks for not making an arguement out of it :)

[Placebo]

i am christian, a mormon. some people do not consider us christians for some bizzare reason which i cannot understand, but yes we are christians.
[/b]
As long as the religion believes in Jesus and salvation through him, then technically, you're a christian.
BTW, that means Jehovah's Witnesses are christian too. For some reason that's also misunderstood.

[loveapple]

I am a very liberal Christian who believes there are many ways to God Christianity being only one of them!

I was brought up to attend a pentecostal church where I was spiritually abused by hell-fire and end times scenarios!. I am of the opinion that extreme Christian fundamentalism is an evil virus which will extinguish democracy given half a chance!

[PaintaBadger]

im a christian,and proud of it

[Neruo]

im a christian,and proud of it
[/b]

The people that bombed the WTC, were muslim, and proud of it.

[Amethyst Star]

The people that bombed the WTC, were muslim, and proud of it.
[/b]

Your comment has been noted, Neruo...

Moving on.

[Neruo]

Your comment has been noted, Neruo...

Moving on.
[/b]

'Yur cumment hasch been nuted neruo'

Great that your post actually added something to the discussion. Why not PM me? The parallel I set was to illustate that relgion, especially when extravertly proud of it, can lead to bad things. Crucades, wars, WTC bombing.

Why wouldn't I be allowed to state that parralel? It is a fact that all religions have led to bad things in some time in history.

[Amethyst Star]

Religion is not the sole cause of the world's problems, nor the cause of all acts of terrorism (however you may define it). I think it's unfair to label everyone who's proud of their spirituality as a potential terrorist.

And when I made this thread, I wasn't looking for a discussion or an arguement, just numbers.

[Tsen]

He didn't say that religion was the cause of all the problems---
Only that overt pride can lead people to do some very nasty things.
It's no different whether you're an undying nationalist, an extremist religious zealot, or an overly enthusiastic soccer (or football, for you Euro chaps) fan.

The fact is, when people have undying support for a notion/belief/idea/political party/etc, bad things happen. When people start believing something and stop taking the time to question their beliefs and the actions those beliefs are leading them to, society breaks down and violence erupts.

[Neruo]

That was exactly what I ment Tsen, thanks!

-

And ok, so I might have said what I said in the first place a bit more sensible. ^_^

[Amethyst Star]

That was exactly what I ment Tsen, thanks!

-

And ok, so I might have said what I said in the first place a bit more sensible. ^_^
[/b]

Not a problem :)

[cd27]

He didn't say that religion was the cause of all the problems---
Only that overt pride can lead people to do some very nasty things.
It's no different whether you're an undying nationalist, an extremist religious zealot, or an overly enthusiastic soccer (or football, for you Euro chaps) fan.

The fact is, when people have undying support for a notion/belief/idea/political party/etc, bad things happen. When people start believing something and stop taking the time to question their beliefs and the actions those beliefs are leading them to, society breaks down and violence erupts.
[/b]

no offense and all...but i highly doubt that's what he meant, even though that's what he said after the fact. The people that did that bombing were muslim, and they WERE proud of it, now i'm quite sure they're not so proud. Christianity offers ONLY love, and it is not meant to be used for a method of killing and death or pain, though some people, those of the times of the crusades, try to use it as such. Yes, old testiment says alot about death and wars and the such, new testement sheds light on the way it is now, the way it's supposed to be, loving our neighbors as ourselves and loving God with our every being, THAT'S Christianity, not "Oh, i killed them because God told me to" or "Yea, i did that (fill in the blank), i know, but God'll forgive me". nope, that's not Christianity, neither is going to church just to go, neither is going to church, then going to school or work and cursing, talking about wrong things, and doing wrong things that the Bible most definately says is wrong.

I'm not trying to be a jerk nor am i trying to pin anything down on anyone, but i'm just sick and tired of people claiming to be Christians, but instead they tear the name of Christianity down for us who ARE Christians.

cd

[Neruo]

no offense and all...but i highly doubt that's what he meant, even though that's what he said after the fact. The people that did that bombing were muslim, and they WERE proud of it, now i'm quite sure they're not so proud.
[/b]

That kind of implies they are burning in hell

Christianity offers ONLY love[/b]

So you contradicted yourself. How can christianity only offer love if people that decline it will end up burning for eternity.

-

Besides that, besides a few passages that probably are less worse then the old testament the koran is allso about good things. The old testament, the one jesus never said not to be followed, allso states that non-believers should be stoned to death. (or put to death in another 'holy' way).

Ofcourse, as we all know, both of those religions have led and are leading to horrible things around the world. One of the few things I agree on the muslim extremist say is that america is on a crusade. Bush is an extremist religist in my eyes just as much as those wacky muslims are.

Point is: All religions are good on paper, like communism. But all of them lead to death, misery and war. I wonder why you GAWD doesn't intervien with a miracle like both the old testament and new testament sais he does dayly.

How many times has your god spoken to Anyone, or how many clear miracles have happend? Kind of strange that god 'used to' do alot of miracles in the testaments, yet now let his creations kill themselves in His name.

[Amethyst Star]

As far as religious extremists, they don't represent the whole population because of what they are: extremists. Most Muslims probably don't condone the acts of 9/11 and other acts of violence that may be taking place in the name of Allah, just as most Christians today would not condone the Crusades or other acts of violence done in the name of God.


Besides that, besides a few passages that probably are less worse then the old testament the koran is allso about good things. The old testament, the one jesus never said not to be followed, allso states that non-believers should be stoned to death. (or put to death in another 'holy' way).
[/b]

For clarification, I don't have time to look this up right now, but it does not say to stone "non-believers." There are rules as far as certain levels of interaction with non-believers, but stoning was a punishment, mainly for fornicators and/or adulterers/adultresses.

If there's more debate, can it be duked out in another thread?... or in one of the million and one other threads that there already are? :)

[Neruo]

A few qoutes from evilbible.com:


Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)



Kill Witches

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)



Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)



Kill Fortunetellers

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)



Death for Hitting Dad

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)



Death for Cursing Parents

1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)



Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)



Death for Fornication

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)



Death to Followers of Other Religions

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)



Kill Nonbelievers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)



Kill False Prophets

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)



Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)



Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)



Kill Followers of Other Religions.

1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)



2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)



Death for Blasphemy

One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)



Kill False Prophets

1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)



2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)



Infidels and Gays Should Die

So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)



Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle

For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)



Kill People for Working on the Sabbath

The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)[/b]

I know, all old testament, but it man, how much worse can the koran be?

[really]

I am a christian. :)

[The Blue Meanie]

Ahhh, thank goodness for that. Back on topic.

Myself, I am not Christian, I am an atheist.

However, I have an alternate "personality" or "perspective", which is Christian, that I adopt or change into from time to time when the need arises. this sounds odd, but since I'm a medieval history student, it helps to have a backup "mindset" that you can slip into from time to time, to help to understand medieval documents.

[Amethyst Star]

Inspired by a new thread:

*bump*

[gothicviceroy112]

:banana::banana:
I'm a Christian too and I kind of lost track of the thread but I do like that you instigated a thread bold-facing our joint beliefs.:banana::):):D:D:bowdown::bowdown::mad::ma d:

[joey11223]

mmma mmmaaa this was ment to be a Christian only fwed for sayings uz is one buuuuut thens the people came and made it brokens:(

Ima sowwwwy for it being brokens!! I get some glue and stick it down again and it will be gooooood!!:)

I isn't one though...., just let m3h have ma showa and my nooodles wihout knockin on me door three times in one day and i wills share my iced creams with youze!

[A dreamer168]

A cATHOLIC AND ALWAYS WILL BE!

[Repo!]

Christian!

[Sandform]

Is anyones name Christian? That might put a twist on things here =P

[SilverZero]

I heart Jesus.

[Bearsy]

there should be a not sure option

[SilverZero]

there should be a not sure option

Not sure = not a Christian.

[Matt5678]

christian/agnostic ;)

[Bearsy]

Not sure = not a Christian.

Not really.

Not sure = Not sure.


I've been in the church for my whole life. 18 years, and now I'm starting to finally think rationally.

But 18 years of indoctrination make me unsure as to how I should act and whats true.

Right now I'm leaning towards science, and fact... and then sometimes I get the occasional "Jesus is gonna kill me for this" thought.

[Silvanus350]

*Is a Christian*

[Amethyst Star]

. . .