Religion

[O'nus]

Yes this is going to be long so you better have some spare time on your hands

Before I divulge into anything, I'd like to first say that I won't be retorting to anyones points oppressively. Religion is a touchy subject, as we all know. However I believe that the basis of religion is.. beliefs! We all have our beliefs and in order to find your true beliefs, ethics, and values, you must hear others opinions and arguments. This is how we learn, grow, live!

With that said, I can imagine a copasetic thread. A while back a typed this up, but I still abide by it. Thankfully, I didn't try to use countless polysylvalic terms, I actually went over it and dimmed down a few words to try and simplify so anyone could understand; for that is the point of literature, isn't it? To communicate? Not to just sound smart.. anyways.. here goes:

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First of all, I see Religions as an excuse to not fear death. This, however, is quite alright as many of us need some form of hope and something to hang onto when we have nothing left for us. Those who are poor, having problems at home, a relative is dying, etc. They may rely on God to be someone who will offer support and try to help them. It is, essentially (and in my opinion) a imaginary source of hope and source for support for people. It helps to ease the mind knowing that, no matter what, there is still an all mighty God up there who will look after you, although, it is simply that; an imaginary being. There is nothing that proves the existance of God, nothing; it is an ideal and philosophy that many people have created in order to create a form of hope. It let's people not fear death because, as long as they do certain things, they will go to heaven, otherwise, they go to hell. This seems logical to most humans; if you abide by these rules, you'll be rewarded with a good afterlife, otherwise, you have a bad afterlife. It seems very rationale and logical to many humans, especially since it is a basis of logic within our lives and society; do things right, and good things come to. But this does not mean your entire life must abide by rules. Why would God restrict you to do certain things whereas he gives you the option to choose "evil"? Freedom of choice is what a God should truly want to give his minions and creations, to choose what they become. I'd go in further, but I will cover this in the "Life" section.

God is a good reason to not fear death, for the basis of a rewarded afterlife seems very logical to us humans. Sometimes, though, sacrifices are required, and thus wars erupt. This is where God is abused. In order to get into heaven, you must fight for it, even though your enemy is doing the samething... How can two people fighting both hope to get into heaven by fighting for it? Is it the winner that goes to heaven because they proved themself stronger? Or is it the one who died for their beliefs and sacrificed themself? Religion is an excuse for war on our primal instincts of bloodlust. Just like all animals, we need violence and bloodshed, and religion gives us that excuse to do such. Thus, Churches and religions turn into recruit offices where they preach that "Jesus died for your sins! Come and worship him!" then, when you'rein, they ask for your money and to abide by their rules and ethics laid out in a book written by people who have seen things that only potheads have equal stories to.

Religions each consist of basis and rules for a proper afterlife in their culture. There are over hundreds of different mass religions and groups that each offer there own afterlife and ways to achieve it; some with great sacrifices, some with none. Thus, each religion is trying to get more members of their religion. This reminds me of clans in online games; they offer reason why you should join then, how they are better than others, etc. but essentially, you still do the samething in every one of them, with the same motivation, just a different insignia on yourself (or colors..whatever). Do I see relgions and church as recruitment for war and money? Yes, but I also see it as a form of brainwashing and attempts to spread their own personal beliefs upon others, so, in a subtle manner, they have a form of control over large amounts of people that they have manipulate/influenced. Yes,I do know that you do not have to go to church, there is no admittance fee, etc. Like I said, they do it very subtly and with no oppression, but this is mostly because churches are commonly for the form of hope in which many of us humans need. In other words, the war churches and their war motivations are not necessarily at the church. The motivations for war imparted by religion are abused by politicians; especially the united states of america. What do the presidents say at the end of every one of their speaches? What do american soldiers say to dismiss their meetings and conversations? "God bless the US" This small phrase makes it seem that God is on their side and attempts to put themselves on a higher status then other cultures and religions which does give motivation to american troops and civillians alike, but also inadvertadly angers other countries accusing them of false religions and beliefs. This is how many holy wars are provoked.

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Hope I've been enlightening, and I hope to hear some other views

[Aphius]

Originally posted by O'nus
\"God bless the US\" This small phrase makes it seem that God is on their sideYeah... whats with that? one would certainly hope that they also wish well to other countries, besides just putting themselves on a pedestal. Couldn't they say something like god bless the earth? or god bless humanity? Y'know something to wish us all well. or is because it has that certain ring to it because it kind of rhymes, and we all know how people looove catchy phrases... http://e.deviantart.com/emoticons/b/bleh.gif

I do believe that there is some kind of afterlife and while i find the concept of hell laughable and heaven doubtful, i think that there is something there to go to when we die but if there is someone there to judge me, i say "Let them come" I'll answer for my actions if i have to.

Well sorry for ranting, you have some good points :) and lets hope we can all discuss religion and our veiws like sane people. :|

[Lucius]

Oh my here we go..again. Im not going to go to deep into this as I have multiple times already. But, first of all, in my eyes religion is not some exuse to not fear death. I think the orginal religion is also diffirent from nowdays western religion. Religion should be something to make you obtain more self knowledge, to develope as a person and find a greater goal. Not to be rewarded in the end, or to use for an exuse not to fear death. I suppose some people do use it that way, but I dont think thats the case with most people though.

Im not a christian though..and I dont believe in that one God as a person...and I dont believe that the one who fights the hardest for his religion is the best person. Basicly religion should be something that preaches peace and harmony. You know I could go on and on for hours, but I dont really have that much time..and this is going to result in a topic with posts of pro religion people arguing with anti religion/atheist people.
Im not saying thats bad..but ive seen it. Im a little tired I gues..so sorry if im bashing the topic right now, but im a little low on fuel right now lol

[Lowercase Society]

This is a VERY touchy subject. seriously.

im going to just watch my tongue and not say anything for now at least.
:cheers:


Superceding feelings of guilt represent the silhouette you present in front of me. -me[/b]

[will.i.am]

Yup, and I'll be right behind Lowercase Society trying to look over his shoulder and jumping up and down screaming, "Wait, what's going on?!"

[O'nus]

Oh please, divulge, divulge, I want to hear your views.

I'm not going to fire back and be oppressive, I want to hear what you all have to say.

Please don't hold back Lucius! :)

[jacobo]

in my eyes, religion is just a tool to keep the masses in line. a tool to keep people working their day to day lives. giving them false hopes, telling them that if they do this for their country they will be rewarded for their "good deeds." -- you said it only about 10x better O'nus.

"Throughout human history, as our species has faced the frightening,
terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are, or where we are going in
this ocean of chaos, it has been the authorities, the political, the
religious, the educational authorities who attempted to comfort us by
giving us order, rules, regulations, informing, forming in our minds their
view of reality. To think for yourself you must question authority and
learn how to put yourself in a state of vulnerable, open-mindedness;
chaotic, confused, vulnerability to inform yourself.

Think for yourself.
Question authority."

[jacobo]

also...

belief-o-matic

this is a fun little survey. answer all the questions, rate the importance of the questions and they'll tell you what you believe. apparently i'm a unitarian universalists.

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/76/story_7665_1.html

[Serinanth]

Look its a touchy subject because you guys are actually bashing alot of peoples core beleifs, blaming them for all the crap that goes on in the world and not looking at the good things they do. And you guys arent going after one beleif your going after releigion in general, the whole kitandkaboodle, of course alot of people are gona be ticked.

But you seem to be neglecting the fact that its dark/evil/GREEDY people that have power, that are the ones causing most of these problems. They are smart enough to use religions as means to atttain support and backing to their cause, at the same time disallusioning the people following that faith.

Mutters... I broke the beleif o matic... cnfused it into thinking im protestant

Religions, nessesary for the growth of spirit, gives a base on which to grow and form your own ideas. I dont think any of us will know what we beleive in this life untill the day we die, there is too much for us to know.

They give an emotional coushin for the blow death deals to us, when we lose somone we love, untill you realise death is an illusion and does not exist.

Even science knows about the laws of concervation of energy...

Do you have any idea how much energy we consist of? and I dont just mean the physical body...
There is no way that so much energy can just ceace to be.

WILL... think of how much one person can do, one person can cahnge the world, its happened before and it will happen again. And most of those religions have one or several of those people at their basis... and think.. thousands of years later people are still talking and unfortunatly arguing about them instead of learning of each one and adding what they tried to share with everyone to your own experience, it may not be exactly what you beleive but it might make you think and realise some aspect of life you had not thought of.


What did you do today?

I dont follow any of the mainstream religons because I dont know enough of them, and most are slightly different than how I see things at the moment.
It seems everyone bashes religion saying they are such a horrible thing. The religion causes war thing is played out now, PEOPLE use religion as EXCUSE to cause war, it does not cause war itself. There are the fanatic CRAZY people that do break that norm though. People are not inhernetly evil or good either, they learn and then choose to walk a path. but without evil there would be no good and vice versa.

We contiue we learn grow, the universe learns and grows, along with attaining a better understanding of itself.

[ShadowNightWing]

Well Said Serinanth. I decided not to venture off into the religon subjects anymore it does get a little chaotic. I just want to eat this Hot Dog I just Boiled!


***runs out the door yelling***

Hot Dogs Get Your Fresh Hot Dogs!!!!
Get em' while they're hot Get em' while They're still barking!!!

[Serinanth]

hehe thanks, I was dubioius but I think religion needed a little defense.. hehe and this coming from one who isint part of one of the major religions =)

I think the main thing, the most important thing is that everyone is blaming religions... (which are a beleifs)
Instead of the People that are responsible for those horrid actions.

Also other countries and armies also ask god to pray for them.. its not jsut the united states... The troops are doing their jobs for the most part, some are crazy zealots that strap bombs to themselves because they have been dissalusioned by a living human being and not a religion.

[Lucius]

I about agree with what Seri said there..^_^

Generally Im not really a fan of this big organized world religions..they all dont really fit myself either. Exept buddism, but even buddism has some flaws in my eyes.

Thats why Im more atracted to the smaller occult movements and believes, if you would consider that a religion..of course I dont even follow one occult stream in particular either, like seri, I have my own ideas about it all. I just blend and mix it with some buddhist and occult ideas.

Like I said, I think alot of people have forgotten what religion is truely about..and like seri said, they use it for an exuse to go to war sometimes(or alot). This is just plain stupid.
But its those crappy world leaders that send out their soldiers to war..iots the stupid terrorist leader that sends out his soldiers..because if you look at it most religious people DISAGREE with the war. Take iraq for example, most christians in the US didnt like what Bush was doing, and most Muslims dont like the doings of people like Osama/Saddam. Its just a small radical group(small compaired to the whole) that does do this.

Religion is about living in peace and harmony. To help eachother and to be there for one another. Not to smash in somebodies head because he thinks diffirently. Religion is there for people to grow as a person, to learn about the thing called life. We all learn in diffirent ways but religion is not there to violently show our views to others.
Sure, a part in me hates how some organize religions tread some people, like christians and gays, muslims and women etc. But thats just what they believe I suppose, and another part says I have to respect that..
People over the whole,in general, should respect and accept eachother on a greater level then they are doing now.

The current values of the world, the current point of view of most people are just shit. People only see money,power,fame,influence etc and themselves..we should be glad that there are still some religions like christianity still exist over here in the west, else it would be an even bigger ego-centric, a-social society.

Just go along,respect eachother, live in peace, everybody is right in the end. "We all get what we deserve in the end,never what we want"(how many times do I have say that..^_^) If you wanna fight a holy war, go to the astral and fight darkness ^_^ , brings me to it seri..I gues Im ignoring your advice to go silently..you know what I mean. But this works for me...^_^

[Serinanth]

Light and Dark, one cannot exist without the other.
Alone they are nothing, together they make up all of existance.

Would singular star shining in the night sky be lookes upon with awe and wonder, were it not for the almost engulfing darkness surrounding it?

Would a shaded glade be saught after with such relish on a hot summers day were it not for the sun shining down upon the earth?

No...

One cannot exist without the other.

What would you do, destroy a part of yourself? I am not at war on the astral plane with darkness. If I am threatened sure I fight back in defense, I am not part of any war.

Shine your brightest when the darkness tries to snuff, but it is only for balance, not to win, there is nothing to win, if all of darkness was banished, we would all be wandering around blindly in the light..

Yinyang is not two things it is one whole.

[Gaz]

I would like to believe in a religion but I cant, I do believe in some sort of afterlife but I could never be Christian. If Christianities teaching were true, then some of them pretty harsh in my point of view. For example, being banished to hell for eternity for not believing in God, This isn’t really fair on people born in countries where Christianity is not the main religion, and babies and children that are too young to understand god when they die. If this is true I recon something like 90% of the people on earth are going to hell! And why does God need us to believe in him?

It could be said that a lot of the way we interpretate Christianity and its teachings is a lot down to us, I don’t think Christians 1000 years ago had the same values as Christians today, Religious beliefs change with time and culture changes, for example contraception was seemed unacceptable but now is accepted and it seems Gays are being accepted more, tell me if im wrong. I think if there is a god he wouldn’t agree with a lot of the things that preiest ect teach. It’s just all down to perception though.

I think we would do a lot better just to believe in ourselves.


But now we got weapons
Of the chemical dust
If fire them we're forced to
Then fire them we must
One push of the button
And a shot the world wide
And you never ask questions
When God's on your side.

In a many dark hour
I've been thinkin' about this
That Jesus Christ
Was betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you
You'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot
Had God on his side.

So now as I'm leavin'
I'm weary as Hell
The confusion I'm feelin'
Ain't no tongue can tell
The words fill my head
And fall to the floor
If God's on our side
He'll stop the next war.

Good Lyrics by bob dylan :-P

[Lucius]

Seri,

I understand what your saying and those are wise words indeed. But still I cannot follow them. I know darkness and light cant exist without eachother, and that there will always be darkness.
But, the darkness keeps fighting aswell, and so will we light siders..you need warriors aswell to keep that balance. I wish I could go quietly,or try and be a little balanced, but I cant. The darkness pushed me once to far..I can stand alot but I cannot stand everything..it fills me with anger, but I use that anger to create a calm willpower.

I cannot banish all darkness, but I can keep it away, I can defend fight for the lightside and most of all for those I care for most, I know that darkness is natural aswell, but still I am convinced of my right, like a little crazed paladin.

Just defense is not enough for me, I wish I could be more like you and go quietly, but I accepted that I wont have that much peace time, but I like being a "paladin". Deep inside I know this is right for me, to fight it to openly challenge it..because it challenges me, it seeks to destroy me and whats even worse..it crossed that border I cannot stand.

You once told me this..I still remember.

"The more light one shines, the more darkness resists you.."
"Only when you are ultimately balanced you can avoid conflict, or when you try and go quietly"

But what if one generates such an amount of light..that the darkness is blinded..its like a vacumcleaner, it can only suck up so many dust..until it goes pop...

[Kaniaz]

Originally posted by adidas
also...

belief-o-matic

this is a fun little survey. answer all the questions, rate the importance of the questions and they'll tell you what you believe. apparently i'm a unitarian universalists.

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/76/story_7665_1.html

Apparently, I'm also a Unitarian Universalist.

Religion? It can be a good and a bad thing (in my opinon). While it's nice for people to be able to confide in somebody/something, and give them the strength to go on, it can also be bad, because you sometimes get wars over religion.

(ex: Mary Queen of Scots burnt 600 Protestants, when they refused to become catholics, in 2 years. That's an average of 1 every 5 days she was queen)

[Serinanth]

Lucius I do understand whatyour saying, I was there =) If you were to shine so brightly that it banished darkness you would create an imbalance and that imbalance would be corrected, that is the nature of the universe, some dark evil thing would rear its head and pummel the crap out of you.. How do I know this? I tried to do the same. I got my ass kicked again and again and again and again... Im thick headed I refused to give up, but then I realised what was going on. I changed, I did not give up though. Think about what happens when you increase the light with a dimmer switch in a room, the shadows become more sharp and more easily visible...

You simply cannot banish the darkness, and like I said before, If you did, you would be wandering around blindly in the light, just as blind as you would be waslking around in the darkness.

I know it seems like its out to get "you" But it is not, its simply trying to retain balance, light and dark are old, about as old as it gets, they do not have emotions and they have but one goal, balance. I know it dosent seem this way when somone you love is attacked, but if you go looking for a fight you will find it, and there will be no end to it, all it will bring you is pain and suffering to you AND the ones you love.

Please, just give it a try, you will find things will quiet down, you will be left alone for the most part, you will find peace, time to share with the one you love and wont have to worry about the darkness.

I learned the hard way, I sincerely wish you heed my words, so that you dont have to. If you must you must... and theres nothing I can do to stop you but be prepared, its not fun, and it will get worse and worse.

[Aphius]

Talking about religion around here isn't something that can be resolved, and everytime i've said something about religion and my beliefs someone tells me i'm being unfair to others who believe differently. :shock:
you guys are actually bashing alot of peoples core beleifs[/b]
Its really annoying to be honest, , i thought that we were trying to be understanding here and respecting others beliefs. Even if that means they dont agree with what is believed by others. I dont belive in any of the mainstream religions either but sort of mix what is best and reflects my views. No matter what anyone says about different religions and what they believe it wont change peoples views, maybe those who never really believed in them in the first place may be swayed but not the true believers. Defense of the religion itself is not necessary. i'm not forcing others to believe what i believe and those who dont like what is said will probably just disregard it as irrelevant. These are my beliefs and i voiced them as i saw fit, but i will not push them onto others like they are the only. Otherwise i would be no better than the people who opress others and start wars over their beliefs.

[Serinanth]

Sorry, I may have come off a little strong there too, :( it just seemed one sided, and everyone focusing on the negative =/ You have every right to beleive what you do but sometimes what we beleive seems offensive to others thats why these discussions are tricky we lose alot of what somone is saying becausewe cannot hear what they are saying only what they have typed, and emotion inflection and feeling is lost.
I hope your not miffed at me :oops: :oops:

[O'nus]

Yeah.. I never said my beliefs were right (defeats the purpose of beliefs), just saying my view on the matter (matter being life in general). Sorry if I come off offensively, but it's only my intention to let you know what I think and hopefully have the feeback in turn.

[ShadowNightWing]

Who is O'nus?

[O'nus]

Originally posted by ShadowNightWing
Who is O'nus?

Uhm, I'm O'nus! Hi! *Waves*

Not sure what you're referring to if you're talking about what I said..

[ShadowNightWing]

Okay if you're O'nus then who the heck is O'nuru?

[Lucius]

Seri...

I just know you are right but I dont know what to do sometimes..please tell. I can never be balanced..there is just to much of the darkness that I hate. But your right, I am shining and shining right now, and the effects are only negative, the shit has increased like mad, and am I making progress..no way.

But I just hate darkside emotions..what do I have to do then? Stay light but shine a little less? Go quietly? Be a quiet wanderer..like a rogue? I would really apreciate advice on the matter...because I to know that this is not working out..and Im turning to much in some kind of crazy holy avenger, which isnt good at all..

Im to pissed at the darkness while I know its a natural thing, this isnt doing anything good for me..I am a fighter now..but deep inside I dont wanna fight..I just wanna live in peace..like I always wanted..like the little idealist I am..mabey I should get back to that...I dont know.
Please..any advice would be highly apreciated, what would you do then? What would you have done diffirently, if you had that chance..thanks.

[phantasy]

Ack this subject again! :D

I'm not really going to get into it. All I see that people on this board seem to only know or have known the Christian religion and whatever they flaws they find from it, left it and complied their own beliefs over time and thought. I mean, no one here ever mentioned leaving Judaism or Hinduism.

So I'm going to take a risk and steer a little towards being preachy.
Look at Islam. Just look at it and read about it. That's all I ask before you condemn all religions all at once. Don't reply if you don't want or don't like. Just look. Know its there.
It just bothers me to know most people do not know this religion exists or what it says.
And I do not mean its history or the people assiociated with its history. I know we get a lot of bad press from current events. What the religion itself says. Not to convert, just to stop the bashing of organized religions.

Hey if you guys get to say stuff about all religions put into one, I get to say this one thing! :wink: ;)

[A Lost Soul]

Originally posted by adidas
also...

belief-o-matic

this is a fun little survey. answer all the questions, rate the importance of the questions and they'll tell you what you believe. apparently i'm a unitarian universalists.

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/76/story_7665_1.html
Interesting. These were my results:

1. Neo-Pagan (100%)
2. Unitarian Universalism (93%)
3. New Age (88%)
4. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (84%)
5. Liberal Quakers (76%)
6. Mahayana Buddhism (73%)
7. Theravada Buddhism (66%)
8. Secular Humanism (65%)
9. New Thought (60%)
10. Bahá'í Faith (59%)
11. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (58%)
12. Reform Judaism (50%)
13. Jainism (50%)
14. Taoism (48%)
15. Nontheist (47%)
16. Scientology (45%)
17. Sikhism (39%)
18. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (37%)
19. Orthodox Quaker (36%)
20. Hinduism (35%)
21. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (35%)
22. Jehovah's Witness (30%)
23. Orthodox Judaism (28%)
24. Islam (15%)
25. Seventh Day Adventist (7%)
26. Eastern Orthodox (3%)
27. Roman Catholic (3%)

Lucius, I want to advise you but I can't form my thoughts into anything that would sound even remotely understandable. Do not change who you are unless you are willing to change. Do not be who you are not, because that will cause imbalance within yourself.

[Lucius]

Seri, ive been meditating on all it for a few hours..because I wanted to find my own answer before you gave your advice..and I must say by the time I was done I felt very enlighted..heres what I thik now:

First of all, I already knew that being ultimately light was not only very hard, but also useless. I started thinking about all this..and then I started to realise alot of things..darkness to is a natural thing and I do have it inside of me. A part of me is dark aswell..I just have been denying it..which isnt good. I realised I was warding away any darkness purely because I didnt find darkside emotions "pleasant". My bahavior was more or less wrong. Dark emotions such as sadness,loneliness, strugle, pain. I hated it all..and I still do of course. But I realized one needs this emotions to to grow as a person..I learned darkness wasnt evil perse..it was simply diffirent from light. Deep inside I knew darkness and light where both neutral energies, that where simply found good and evil subjectively.

I knew I just needed that part of darkness with me to grow and learn, even with darkness inside of me, I can use that darkness, and not "evil" for the cause of the in my eyes subjective "good".

I then realized that alot of my principles where already that of the greater balance..but it was only then I knew I could be balanced.
I am starting to accept that little dark part of myself, but darkness is simply a neutral energy..like light. Good and evil are just titles we give eachother.. And like I said, even with that darkness I can still be "good"

I decided to start and grow more balanced of these two neutral,nature forces. Both dark and light..one cannot exist without another indeed.

I realize I was blinded by my own light..but now I am surrounding by light by a little darkness..creating something beautiful. Like the moon, both dark and light. Darkness is found bad most of the time because we suffer from it, but we needs these sufferings to grow as a person, and as a soul..

I now know accepting a little darkness is not bad..its good in fact. When I become balanced, that doesnt make me neutral..it makes me balanced. Just the word says, balanced, its a state of harmony with yourself,with others,the world,the cosmos, with everything..
When I am at harmony I can still chose the path of goodness...

aye, I thank you, I suppose your words triggered something inside of me,something I already knew..I think I am on the right way now..^_^

EDIT: Lost soul, thanks for even mentioning you wanted to give advice, I really apreciate it! what you think about this, I really feel nice about this, deep inside I know this is right..^_^

[O'nus]

Originally posted by ShadowNightWing
Okay if you're O'nus then who the heck is O'nuru?

:help:

In the words of the virgin Mary, "Come again?"

[ShadowNightWing]

Yeah this girl who I believed hacked into my Dream last night name was O'nuru and she mentioned that name O'nus. Oh well.. Anyway I think what Lost Soul has done is a pretty good idea. Everyone should do the Belief -O- Matic and post thier results.

Here's Mine

1. Jehovah's Witness (100%)
2. Orthodox Judaism (97%)
3. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (83%)
4. Bahá'í Faith (80%)
5. Islam (74%)
6. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (74%)
7. Sikhism (73%)
8. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (62%)
9. Seventh Day Adventist (62%)
10. Orthodox Quaker (60%)
11. Eastern Orthodox (60%)
12. Roman Catholic (60%)
13. Jainism (56%)
14. Liberal Quakers (52%)
15. Reform Judaism (51%)
16. Hinduism (47%)
17. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (43%)
18. Unitarian Universalism (41%)
19. Mahayana Buddhism (38%)
20. Theravada Buddhism (37%)
21. Neo-Pagan (22%)
22. Scientology (22%)
23. New Thought (20%)
24. New Age (20%)
25. Taoism (18%)
26. Secular Humanism (15%)
27. Nontheist (12%)

[Lucius]

1. New Age (100%)
2. Neo-Pagan (98%)
3. Mahayana Buddhism (98%)
4. Unitarian Universalism (89%)
5. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (88%)
6. Theravada Buddhism (84%)
7. New Thought (83%)
8. Liberal Quakers (80%)
9. Hinduism (79%)
10. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (78%)
11. Scientology (76%)
12. Jainism (72%)
13. Taoism (66%)
14. Bahá'í Faith (64%)
15. Sikhism (62%)
16. Orthodox Quaker (50%)
17. Secular Humanism (50%)
18. Reform Judaism (50%)
19. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (44%)
20. Jehovah's Witness (44%)
21. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (41%)
22. Orthodox Judaism (35%)
23. Nontheist (27%)
24. Islam (26%)
25. Seventh Day Adventist (23%)
26. Eastern Orthodox (13%)
27. Roman Catholic (13%)

[O'nus]

1. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (100%)
2. Unitarian Universalism (88%)
3. Liberal Quakers (85%)
4. Secular Humanism (76%)
5. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (67%)
6. Neo-Pagan (62%)
7. New Thought (60%)
8. New Age (59%)
9. Bahá'í Faith (57%)
10. Nontheist (56%)
11. Reform Judaism (50%)
12. Theravada Buddhism (48%)
13. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (47%)
14. Jehovah's Witness (42%)
15. Scientology (40%)
16. Mahayana Buddhism (38%)
17. Taoism (35%)
18. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (33%)
19. Orthodox Quaker (20%)
20. Sikhism (20%)
21. Orthodox Judaism (10%)
22. Eastern Orthodox (0%)
23. Hinduism (0%)
24. Islam (0%)
25. Jainism (0%)
26. Roman Catholic (0%)
27. Seventh Day Adventist (0%)

I chose "Not Applicable" for almost all of those..

..I make quizes on this website.. I even made the FAQ for it; I'm "BludShed" hehe.. anyways.. *Cough*

Not the most entirely accurate selector I think. Might be better if "Agnostic" was an option.. *Shrugs*

[Aphius]

Originally posted by Serinanth
I hope your not miffed at me :oops: :oops: :-P I'm not angry, i just needed to get what was bothering me off my chest.

[phantasy]

1. Islam (100%)
2. Orthodox Judaism (100%)
3. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (85%)
4. Sikhism (82%)
5. Jehovah's Witness (80%)
6. Bahá'í Faith (78%)
7. Jainism (76%)
8. Reform Judaism (72%)
9. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (71%)
10. Orthodox Quaker (70%)
11. Hinduism (58%)
12. Liberal Quakers (56%)
13. Mahayana Buddhism (56%)
14. Seventh Day Adventist (56%)
15. Eastern Orthodox (52%)
16. Roman Catholic (52%)
17. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (51%)
18. Unitarian Universalism (48%)
19. Neo-Pagan (46%)
20. Theravada Buddhism (44%)
21. New Age (39%)
22. Scientology (36%)
23. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (30%)
24. New Thought (29%)
25. Secular Humanism (26%)
26. Taoism (20%)
27. Nontheist (18%)

[DeadToTheWorld]

1. Unitarian Universalism (100%)
2. Liberal Quakers (79%)
3. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (77%)
4. Secular Humanism (76%)
5. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (74%)
6. Bahá'í Faith (61%)
7. Neo-Pagan (60%)
8. Nontheist (60%)
9. Taoism (55%)
10. New Thought (54%)
11. New Age (51%)
12. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (50%)
13. Theravada Buddhism (50%)
14. Scientology (48%)
15. Orthodox Quaker (39%)
16. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (38%)
17. Reform Judaism (35%)
18. Mahayana Buddhism (34%)
19. Jehovah's Witness (30%)
20. Sikhism (29%)
21. Hinduism (21%)
22. Jainism (18%)
23. Islam (14%)
24. Orthodox Judaism (14%)
25. Seventh Day Adventist (13%)
26. Eastern Orthodox (7%)
27. Roman Catholic (7%)

[GestaltAlteration]

THere are people with religion and there are people who are weired and OBSESSED with religion.

*shrugs* Im a christian I believe jesus is my savior and such....

I pray go to church and thats it.. nothing weired I dont treat non christians any diffrent (or try not to)

And thats about it.

As for my results...


1. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (100%)
2. Orthodox Quaker (88%)
3. Eastern Orthodox (86%)
4. Roman Catholic (86%)
5. Seventh Day Adventist (84%)
6. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (75%)
7. Jehovah's Witness (63%)
8. Orthodox Judaism (56%)
9. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (55%)
10. Hinduism (52%)
11. Islam (46%)
12. Sikhism (36%)
13. Liberal Quakers (31%)
14. Jainism (31%)
15. Mahayana Buddhism (30%)
16. Theravada Buddhism (29%)
17. Bah᧭ Faith (26%)
18. Unitarian Universalism (25%)
19. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (23%)
20. Neo-Pagan (22%)
21. Reform Judaism (18%)
22. Scientology (18%)
23. New Age (16%)
24. New Thought (13%)
25. Nontheist (11%)
26. Secular Humanism (11%)
27. Taoism (9%)

[icedawg]

Originally posted by phantasy
So I'm going to take a risk and steer a little towards being preachy.
Look at Islam. Just look at it and read about it. That's all I ask before you condemn all religions all at once. Don't reply if you don't want or don't like. Just look. Know its there.

Exactly. Do people even realize that so many religions have a common origin? For example, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all start at the exact same root. (I took a class--"Western Religions"--comprising those three, and a few others.)

I also took "Eastern Religions" which talked about some really neat ones, like Hinduism, Jainism, Sikhism, Confucianism, Buddhism, Shinto, Taoism, etc.

[phantasy]

Originally posted by icedawg+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(icedawg)</div><!--QuoteBegin-phantasy
So I'm going to take a risk and steer a little towards being preachy.
Look at Islam. Just look at it and read about it. That's all I ask before you condemn all religions all at once. Don't reply if you don't want or don't like. Just look. Know its there.

Exactly. Do people even realize that so many religions have a common origin? For example, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all start at the exact same root. (I took a class--\"Western Religions\"--comprising those three, and a few others.)

I also took \"Eastern Religions\" which talked about some really neat ones, like Hinduism, Jainism, Sikhism, Confucianism, Buddhism, Shinto, Taoism, etc.[/b]

Yah, there are so many religions out there and just because you dislike one, doesn't mean you should put them all in the same pot.

[nerve]

I don't condemn religions...I don't hate people of other religions...right now I'm searching for truth, finding answers for myself instead of eating what my parents had set before me on a plate.

[jacobo]

i don't hate the people who follow a religion. some of my best friends are catholic, mormon, and christian. what i hate is the mentality and the conformity that organized religions breed. if you want to be lied to, be my guest. just don't impose anything on me and we'll be peachy keen.

[nerve]

if you want to be lied to, be my guest. just don't impose anything on me and we'll be peachy keen.
[/b]

..mew?

[DeadToTheWorld]

don't hate the people who follow a religion. some of my best friends are catholic, mormon, and christian. what i hate is the mentality and the conformity that organized religions breed. if you want to be lied to, be my guest. just don't impose anything on me and we'll be peachy keen.[/b]

same here really apart from the only ppl i know who beleive in god r my grandparents, a few teachers and a couple of ppl from my old school. sorry if this sounds offensive but i beleive i am lucky 2 not have grown up in a religious family or society, i hope its given me the ability 2 develop my own opinions more than if i had had a set of beliefs and values forced down my throat from a young age.

my personal standpoint is that i dont care if there is or isnt a guard, i try 2 live my life as i c fit.

god not guard sry

[Philosophacles]

Wow, i wasn't going to come to this thread but i finally cracked because so many people were posting. The thing i find interesting is that although this whol thread has pretty much revolved around christianity not one christian has posted. How did you guys get so far? I want to touch so many things but i don't know where to start. I am christian by the way.

[Philosophacles]

also

1. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (100%)
2. Orthodox Quaker (87%)
3. Liberal Quakers (83%)
4. Unitarian Universalism (72%)
5. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (68%)
6. Reform Judaism (67%)
7. Seventh Day Adventist (65%)
8. Eastern Orthodox (58%)
9. Roman Catholic (58%)
10. Bahá'í Faith (49%)
11. New Age (46%)
12. Neo-Pagan (44%)
13. Secular Humanism (43%)
14. Orthodox Judaism (42%)
15. Sikhism (42%)
16. New Thought (40%)
17. Islam (40%)
18. Scientology (39%)
19. Mahayana Buddhism (38%)
20. Theravada Buddhism (37%)
21. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (36%)
22. Hinduism (36%)
23. Taoism (34%)
24. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (27%)
25. Jehovah's Witness (27%)
26. Jainism (27%)
27. Nontheist (22%)

Mine seem fit

[A Lost Soul]

I just wanted to say thanks for showing us this little quiz. I brought it to my mom's attention and it sparked some really cool and interesting conversation. My mom (not birth mother) is Universal Unitarian. I am pagan. My mom wasn't surprised that those were the top two on my list. We discussed some of the precepts of the other religions and I even learned a little about some of the religions on the list that I had never heard of. It's so fascinating! I'm so lucky that I have a mother who is so open and of the same mindset as I am regarding religion and beliefs.

My birth mother, on the other hand, is Catholic because all other religions are wrong. That mentality was shoved down my throat for many years and given my birth mother's attitude toward religions other than Catholicism, I'm surprised that I've grown up with such an open mind. My mom wasn't surprised to see Roman Catholicsim on the bottom of my list, though, and I had to chuckle at the irony of it. :-P

Anyway, thanks again for this quiz. I can't speak for others, but it's actually been very enlightening to me. :)

[Philosophacles]

Well i am not catholic but i do think yhat my religion is the right belief. Because, well, thats what I believe. I don't think less of anyone else with other religions. I actually have a very open mind, much more open then many atheists i know.

[O'nus]

Originally posted by Philosophacles
Well i am not catholic but i do think yhat my religion is the right belief. Because, well, thats what I believe. I don't think less of anyone else with other religions. I actually have a very open mind, much more open then many atheists i know.

lol I have to agree, atheists can become very indulged into their beliefs and yet neglect the fact of how contradictory they're being. There's a lot of psych behind it.. but it's irrelevant.

I'm in a pie mood.. I love pies.. I just remebered! I have pie! Yes! Sorry, short post-pie

[Philosophacles]

man, thats what we need. the solution to everything. It will bring together people of all races and religions and put an end to these sill wars.


PIE!

[phantasy]

Actually, don't most religions say they are the solution to everything that ails mankind?

[jacobo]

i don't mean to offend anyone with this quote, i just think that it sums up my views better than i can ever do it.

"Man makes religion, religion does not make man. Religion is the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet found himself or has already lost himself again....Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and also the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of spiritless conditions. It is the opium of the people."

-Karl Marx

[Philosophacles]

(sorry i can't contain this)

And this quote comes from a communist philosopher.

[jacobo]

correct. he is the father of communism, it all came from his head. to bad there has never been a true communist society or he might loose some legitimacy. you might know his philosophy as marxism. he's a very intelligent man, with some very down to earth ideas that most capitalists dismiss as babble. it's really to bad.

[Philosophacles]

well this is turning into a political conversation and as the topic says, this is about religion.

[phantasy]

Originally posted by adidas
correct. he is the father of communism, it all came from his head. to bad there has never been a true communist society or he might loose some legitimacy. you might know his philosophy as marxism. he's a very intelligent man, with some very down to earth ideas that most capitalists dismiss as babble. it's really to bad.

Not to say that religions do not influence politics or belittle Marx, but I see a fallacy of authority. I mean, was Marx a religious philosopher or a student of religion? You should find someone with a religious background, at least if you discuss the subject.

[jacobo]

it doesn't stop him from having ideas does it? i only said that this quote from marx explained my opinions about religion. i never said what he did it for a living, because that's irrelevant... he's breathing... that means he can have an opinion on religion. -- and as for philosophacles ... i used the quote in religious manner, you turned it political when you tried to say that a communist philosopher might not be as qualified as anyone else. :shakehead2:

[Philosophacles]

i am just saying that a communist may have a bias opinion about religion. Read up on christian philosophers such as Calivin, Hobbes, and Cheknov.

[phantasy]

They don't have to be Christian, they can be Buddist, Jewish, atheist, it doesn't matter. I'm just saying it is better fitted to take the religious ideas of someone who would better stand for it. Marx only seems to see the idea of religion from a political context, or is it just me?

[jacobo]

he does look at it from a political context... and so do i, because i don't see it being anything beyond that. -- are you saying a christian philosopher wouldn't be bias?

[Philosophacles]

no, they would be bias, just from the opposite view point. Try comparing them.

[phantasy]

Originally posted by adidas
he does look at it from a political context... and so do i, because i don't see it being anything beyond that. -- are you saying a christian philosopher wouldn't be bias?

Heavens no. As I said, it doesn't matter what their religion is, there is such a thing as an aethist with a religious degree. Just be careful whose authority you use for a subject.
I just wasn't sure that this discussion was from a political context, I thought more of a personal one. Not sure.
Hmmm...if you think religion is only a political context, then I guess everything spiritual, physical and social-oriented about it, is just a way to control people to you? Isn't that a little close-minded? No one is twisting anyone's arm to have a religion for the pure sake of having a political agenda. Unless you count radicals, but then that's why they are called so.

[jacobo]

personally i don't see anything spiritual behind any religions. that's why i chose not to take it beyond a political context in this case. -- like i said before, yes he's a political philosopher, but that does not hinder his ability to have religious opinions.

[Philosophacles]

wait, you don't find anything spiritual about religion? well i don't find anything spiritual about atheism, so i guess it is a difference of opinion.

[BlueMystik]

Atheism is a way of life for me... I know without being told that I will go to hell or heaven that I should do things truthfully and nice... I dont really care about other peoples religions ... I would never try to convert somemone but if any guy walks up to me in the mall or on the street telling me that if I dont join his little group of born agains that i will be soulless and therefor go to hell.... I wann throw an egg at this guy... take his panflets and rip them to pieces...

Religions can rally and ask for conversions but atheists cant... or if they can they would just be beat up....

(Religions are the root of all evil)

[phantasy]

Originally posted by BlueMystik

(Religions are the root of all evil)

How many religions have you tried and studied before you reached this conclusion? I think I can guess.

[nerve]

....I wann throw an egg at this guy...take his panflets and rip them to pieces... [/b]

hmmph. what an asshole of a thing to do. I wouldn't do that or anything like to anyone just for having a different religion or beliefs.

[Philosophacles]

how many people have told you that if you don't "convert" you will go to hell? I have more atheists push their ideas on me then christians. Besides, christianity isn't soley about doing good things so you won't go to hell.

[jacobo]

whats it about then? -- it explains what was then unknown. all it does anymore is give people ethics and morals and tells them how to think.

[phantasy]

Originally posted by adidas
whats it about then? -- it explains what was then unknown. all it does anymore is give people ethics and morals and tells them how to think.

Too bad most of them don't really follow it exactly anyway.

[jacobo]

true true... and too bad some follow it word for word *cough*gay bashers*cough*

http://www.adl.org/special_reports/wbc/

heres a little bible prodigy hard at work. this guy disgusts me... i swear... give me a baseball bat and 10 minutes locked in a room with this guy and he wont be preaching anymore of god's loving words.

[icedawg]

Originally posted by adidas
true true... and too bad some follow it word for word *cough*gay bashers*cough*

http://www.adl.org/special_reports/wbc/

indeed. it's scary how misguided some people allow themselves to become.

[Philosophacles]

there are some people who do bash gays, but there are atheists and people of other religions that bash gays. As for what christianity is about is much deeper then ethics and morals. Sure it promotes that, but it also teaches spirituality and makes people, at least me, fell good. Plus it explains a lot of things today.

[jacobo]

i don't remember hearing about any atheist groups running around to gay funerals holding up signs that say "god hates fags" but that's just me. its organized hatred... gays, jews, blacks, women... its super concentrated hate. that's something it fosters, i wont having anything to do with it... even if it does make me "feel good." blah. but thats just my humble opinion. :?

[Philosophacles]

Have you ever seen a group sponsered by atheism? It is not only christians who do this. And i have never heard of a group sponsered by christianity yo hate blacks, women, jews, or gays.

[nerve]

people like that make me ashamed to call myself a "Christian".

I. don't. hate. anyone. God doesn't want us to hate anyone.

[Philosophacles]

no he doesn't. It plainly says all this in the bible. Don't judge.

[jacobo]

According to Leviticus 19:20-22, if a man rapes his female slave... the woman gets punished and the man's sins are forgiven.

In Deuteronomy 22:28-29 it says that if a man rapes a virgin, he must marry her and also pay her father 50 shekels for humbling her.

Women are below men in the pecking order again in 1 Corinthians 11:3-9 where it is made crystal clear that God over Christ, Christ is over man, and man is over woman. After all man was not created for woman, but woman was created for man.

Women are not allowed to talk in church, in fact the idea of them speaking in church is shameful. This is made very clear in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35. Women are to remain silent, and if they have any questions they are to ask their husbands at home after church.

Not only are women inferior to men, but they should treat their husbands as they treat God. Check this quote out from Ephesians 5:22-24 "wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing."

women were only created because Adam could not find a suitable wife (help meet) in the animals that God showed him. On top of being second string to cattle and sheep, women were created from a spare rib of a man. Woman needed man in order to exist. (Genesis 2:20-22)

In Exodus 20:17 it says "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's." Yes sir, the wife ranks right there with the ox and ass.

That's not all. Exodus 21:7-10 covers the rules of selling your daughter, her master making her marry him, and then her role if he wants more wives. I see the woman's view and feelings mattered quite a bit here.

If a priest's daughter is a whore, she is to be burnt at the stake. (Leviticus 21:9)

People who have flat noses, or is blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God (Leviticus 21:17-18)

If anyone, even your own family suggests worshipping another God, kill them. (Deuteronomy 13:6-10)

If you find out a city worships a different god, destroy the city and kill all of it's inhabitants... even the animals. (Deuteronomy 13:12-15)

Kill anyone with a different religion. (Deuteronomy 17:2-7)

fun fun stuff...

[jacobo]

Originally posted by Philosophacles+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Philosophacles)</div>Have you ever seen a group sponsered by atheism? [/b]

no.

<!--QuoteBegin-Philosophacles
It is not only christians who do this. And i have never heard of a group sponsered by christianity yo hate blacks, women, jews, or gays.

last i heard, hitler and the whole german republic was christian.

[Philosophacles]

Here are some corrections to your scripture lessons:

Leviticus 19:20-22 says if a man rapes another mans slave he should ask for forgivessness to a priest, says nothing about the woman being punished.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 if a man rapes a virgin he should bless there famili by marrying her and paying the father 50 shekels. In those days if a man wanted to marry your daughter it was good.

1 Corinthians 11:3-9 again a question of period. yet continue to 10-12 "That is why a woman ought to have a veil on her head, because of the angels. (Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man nor man of woman; for as woman was made from man, so man is born from woman. And all things are from god.)"

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 is aslo i thing of period. When this book was put in the bible woman's thoughts were not recognized clearly that is different today. Even with christians.

Ephesians 5:22-24 again you don't read far enought, go to 25-33 it talks about how husbands should love their wives as christ loves the church. Married couples are one and to not love the other would be not loving yourself. It just says that the wife should respect her husband not bow to him.

Genesis 2:20-22 read more, it says that she was created to help the man and the man would leave his father and mother to become one with a woman. They are both naked and not ashamed. It explains marriage, thats all. Marriage was important back then.

Exodus 20:17 thats one of the ten commandments, don't steal.

Exodus 21:7-10 slavery was legal back then. Anyway, it says if the master gives her it be his son's slave he should treat her as a daughter and if he gets a wife the slave still must get food, clothing, and marital rights. I think the woman's needs still hold.

Leviticus 21 is the explaination of what a priest and church should be, your taking this to literally.

Leviticus 21:17-18 says that these people can still eat the bread of God or worship him and He will love him, he just can't go to the sanctuary. Its different today.

The first part of Deuteronomy is moses explaining the ten commandments to the other jews. That one is thou shalt not worship false idols. Besides, thats more of a jewish thing, Deuteronomy 14 explains what is kosher.

Anything else your confused about?

[theroguechemist]

Originally posted by Philosophacles
Its different today.

So are we to follow the writings of Man's interpretations, modifications, and/or transformations of the Bible to suit our own lives, and not the \"original\" version, inspired by God? There are an estimated 200,000 different variations of the New Testament alone.

Originally posted by Max King in The Cruelest Joke of All
In ancient days, when parts of the Bible were said to have been written, all writing was performed by scribes upon papyrus paper. This was made from thin slices of the stem of the papyrus plant... Being a natural fiber, the scrolls had a very limited life. Any records that were required to last any length of time had to be copied periodically. The Dead Sea scrolls, discovered in 1947, were still intact only because they were sealed in jars and hidden in a very dry place. They were never subjected to light, moisture, or living organisms that would have quickly destroyed them.

It was very easy for these papyrus scrolls to be damaged by microscopic organisms and just plain rot. It would not be unusual for parts of the scrolls to be lost and what was lost to be made-up by the scribes who copied them. They would merely make-up what they thought the original scroll said where part of it was missing. In a great many cases, where original records were \"fixed-up\" during the rewriting, they probably never were intentionally changed for subversive reasons, but purely for the sake of maintaining the continuity of the text, accurate or not.

Just my two-cents on the issue..

[jacobo]

you said that most everything isnt applicable today... like slavery, womens rights? GOD IS ALL KNOWING. "HE" CANNOT BE WRONG. but its different in this case? yeah... too much for me to choke down. sorry.

[Philosophacles]

The bible is all open to interpretation. I know i don't know everything about the bible, if you want real good explanations ask a church pastor. Anyway the bible isn't supposed to be taken so literal, mostly the old testament. Like the whole Adam and Eve thing I don't believe, nor many of the other stories. Its the moral background that they are about. I am going to stop discussing this because I don't believe I alone can change your views because I am not terribly knowledgable of the bible.

[nerve]

nor am I...which is sad. I'm a christian. :(

[Philosophacles]

i want to be more knowledgable, so i will learn.

[nerve]

me too. I plan to read the whole thing, probably more than once, and trace things back to their original meanings to find the truth.

[phantasy]

Originally posted by theroguechemist+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(theroguechemist)</div><!--QuoteBegin-Philosophacles
Its different today.

So are we to follow the writings of Man's interpretations, modifications, and/or transformations of the Bible to suit our own lives, and not the \"original\" version, inspired by God? There are an estimated 200,000 different variations of the New Testament alone.
[/b]

I am so glad someone realised this fact.

Good luck everyone, with finding yourselves and a religion.
Be open-minded and before you dislike all, remember there are many out there.

[AirRick101]

Please heed warning if my viewpoint may seem absurd.

I got to thinking (since I currently going into the writing profession) that any book ever composed should logically be nothing more than man's discoveries and insights. These books are bound to human error, and not expected to be perfect, ever, and NEVER followed as absolute truth. The point being that any book ever created would logically always always have errors and holes in their reasonings. But then there's this thing called the Holy Bible, and it seems to have stood a pretty long test of time.

The Bible has such supernatural claims and so much controversy has been going around about it, that it's very much worth looking into and considering. Don't worry, it's not going to suck you in and necessarily brainwash you! The Bible is one of the few explanations, and remains the most popular way to explain the universe and its origins. Rest assured, I say "popular way," not "only way."

Christianity has bad connotations, I know. I myself am a Christian, by spiritual standards. (because I've been baptized) I even became frustrated and furious at it according to past views I've absorbed about the religion that seemed to ruin my life...(look up Religious Addiction) Just these past days (more like hours) I thought to myself "Hey, man. This claims to be the ultimate truth. Don't put it away just yet. You can disagree if you want."

One of the most profound things I've discovered in the Bible is how a whole subject within the field of psychology can be condensed into a single verse in the Bible. For example, there are many courses and books teaching how to enjoy life. They go on and on and even have workshops! These books are not bad, though. They are just told in much larger scales in comparison to the miniscule verse "The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want." ( "I shall not want" signifying the ability to love life without wanting anything more) The only exception with the scripture is that a relationship with God will suffice.

[theroguechemist]

Originally posted by AirRick101
Rest assured, I say \"popular way,\" not \"only way.\"

Nor necessarily "the right way." :-P

In the end, I believe science will prevail in explaning the universe, as it has. I mean, where in any spritual context do you find the Natural Laws of the world that science has created (Newton's laws of gravity and motion, 3 laws of thermodynamics, Einstein's relativity, Quantum theory...) being explained? I've never heard of any one using the Bible to explain why things happen the way they do.. Well, save for miracles and those things..

Nevermind. g2g

[munkle]

I agree that science will prevail. But it makes sense that the Bible wouldn't explain how the phsyical worlds works though. The laws of physics couldn't have already been explained because people hadn't reasoned out that there are different laws gravity and motion. If the natural laws were already explained, then there would be a lot of wasted time and effort discovering them.

I used to think that all religions were stupid. It just seemed like they were there to make people go out and convert other people. Some of the past fighting seemed to just come down to one group trying to stand up for their own religion. Other fighting is a result of trying to make one dominate religion. After reading some of these post, I realised that I think all relgions are stupid because they all seem to have an excuse to try to convert of people. Of course for a religion to survive, people must be converted, but religions just seem like a lot of good excuses for unexplained things in life. This is all well and good, if it stays self contained. But if it stays self contained and no one is ever told about the religion, then it dies. This brings you right back to converting people to one faith and saying it is the one true path of life. You can't have more than on true path of life, let alone 200,000....

[Artelis]

Originally posted by munkle
I used to think that all religions were stupid. It just seemed like they were there to make people go out and convert other people. Some of the past fighting seemed to just come down to one group trying to stand up for their own religion. Other fighting is a result of trying to make one dominate religion. After reading some of these post, I realised that I think all relgions are stupid because they all seem to have an excuse to try to convert of people. Of course for a religion to survive, people must be converted, but religions just seem like a lot of good excuses for unexplained things in life. This is all well and good, if it stays self contained. But if it stays self contained and no one is ever told about the religion, then it dies. This brings you right back to converting people to one faith and saying it is the one true path of life. You can't have more than on true path of life, let alone 200,000....

my opinion exactly.

[Athena]

I think religion is just people's different views of the world. Everything can be interpreted differently. Take the bible for example. Their are hundreds of different views on what it means.

The problem is, people get too obsessed with their own views. Lots of times their religion (or view) makes them think that it is the only right one so they try to force it on other people. They just can't accept the fact that there are different ways of seeing the universe.

Also, most religions say that there are no other good ways to live. This often makes the believer narrow-minded.

If we accepted other peoples opinons and were open to different views, I think the world would be a whole lot better. :mrgreen:

[Athena]

This is kind of off the subject but try to get an answer to this question: Is god so powerful that he can make a rock that he can't lift?

[nerve]

This is kind of off the subject but try to get an answer to this question: Is god so powerful that he can make a rock that he can't lift?[/b]

that's a really stupid question. why would he want to do that anyway? :|

[ShadowNightWing]

Originally posted by Paperdoll EP
This is kind of off the subject but try to get an answer to this question: Is god so powerful that he can make a rock that he can't lift?

that's a really stupid question. why would he want to do that anyway? :|[/b]


Paperdolls right that question is stupid. But here's something for you to think of, don't even try wrecking your brain trying to figure something out like that because that question is beyond us all. For instance It is written that the ALMIGHTY GOD has an Infinate Army of Angels the Number of Angels he has never ends, Try figuring that one out. Or try this one for instance. Where did GOD Come From? Answer: He created himself. How is that possible I mean you have to be in order to make exsistance right? But don't try to grasp it because our small brains cannot handle that.

[nerve]

he didn't create himself he was always there. try thinking about that. garenteed to result in a headache! :-P

[ShadowNightWing]

See my point exactly... You're right he was always there because he is the Alpha and the Omega but he did create himself He created his being or prescense I should say. and You are right He didn't create himself and I am also right that he did. Thats how mind boggling the entire thing is.. Because its both ways.

[O'nus]

If your arguement is "our feeble mortal minds cannot comprehend it" then you have no arguement.

[theroguechemist]

Originally posted by O'nus
If your arguement is \"our feeble mortal minds cannot comprehend it\" then you have no arguement.

agreed. that's what everyone uses as an arguement when they are confronted with a good atheistic arguement.

[nerve]

Originally posted by O'nus
If your arguement is \"our feeble mortal minds cannot comprehend it\" then you have no arguement.

no harm in talking about it. or discussing it.

[WerBurN]

who says he wasnt created? it says he always has existed in that he is timeless, but just because we have a linear progression of time deos not mean he is necessarily so...who says something else didnt create him?

[AnOmnipresenceInTheWired]

It doesn't really matter...

Anyway you cut the cake kiddies...

Its a paradox...

Something can not come from nothing!

Nothing can be spawned from nothing...

So where did it all begin?

Is a question that you shouldn't really dwell on for all too long, Theory doesn't hurt...

But actualy believing you can come up with an ultimate answer is foolish...

From there on its all Hypthetical...

"Christianity is a wonderful idea, too bad its never been tried" - Ghandi

The orginal teachings and philosophy of Christ are quite thought provoking, and widely accepted as what is "right"

Take out all of the answers to the questions that can't be answered and you have a pretty nice book of moral teachings...

But thats only as far as chistianity...

Most religions have a wonderful message, and that is... "Do on to others as you would have done on to yourself"

Practicly is ever lived by this simple "rule" then life would be far more pleasant for everyone...

Religion is about love just about in ever form...

Love for ones self
Love for ones neighbor
Love for ones world

Etc. Etc.

I don't believe in a god...

I put my faith in the only thing I can, Humanity...

Sure humanity isn't always there, and sure they cheat and lie, and are imperfect...

But what isn't?

One could agure that imperfection is perfection...

Seemingly it might be...

Without the bad we woul not know the good, without the good the bad...

The world to me is perfect...

I like the way the constitution puts it...

Nature Is God...

(Note it doesn't say God is Nature)

The only thing the defines the Christian god of today is the litirature writtin so many years ago, and revised and tamperd with since...

Its not very credible...

Ultimately one just makes more sense to me than the other...

And if our minds couldn't understand such power, then never give anyone the sorry excuse that "You Felt The Touch Of God" (Pulp Fiction Style) because no human could ever comprehend such power, if god is really what we claim him to be, he would be completly beyond us... We wouldn't know god if it snuck up and bit us on the ass...

The writtings in the bible are Propoganda...

Look at the Old Testament compared to the New...

It goes from Vengful God to Loving God...

If you ask me its quite strange...

Maybe its because fear was what people before christ needed...

Genisis is just a huge book of folk lore, fairy tales told from generation to generation just as credible as Greek Mythology or Native American Beliefe...

Im not exactly saying that religion is a bad thing, Its a great thing if you use it correctly...

But it tends to be used as a crutch or security blanket...

Break off and learn on your own...

Just be good people to just be good people...

Finding your way without the guide is always more satisfying in the end...

I believe in sense, and Logic...

I believe in alot of other things too...

Science can not explain everything, Hence Philosophy....

(I'll try harder next time! ^_~)

[Lynx]

Well I think all true religions point to the same thing anyway, they just express it differently because everyones different and wont like the same thing. I like buddhism myself, thats just me and I see nothing wrong with say christianity or the Lynx Cult :lol: As for religious texts or any text for that matter in the words of Samuel Beckett 'everything is second hand' and should never be taken as 'gospel', we should always question who wrote something, what was their motive for writing, who was it aimed at etc. - I hate it when people quote tiny bits of things like tabloid reporters and dont look at the whole picture like "Lynx is not "a cool dude!" " :lol:

Also I think politics and mainstream religions cannot be separated, I mean just look at 16 century renaissance europe! well any period in history but i know a bit about that one.

What do all the non-christians think about stuff like shops closing on sundays, christmas etc thats hardly religious anymore in the west, and things like st. valentines day, mothers day (is that religious?) its all commercialised now, i definitely know fathers day was never a religious thing!

Sometimes its taken way too far in England though - political correctness or whatever, before last xmas, a town hall? wasnt allowed to put up a sign about carol singing - local council banned it because it was offensive to the local Hindu community apparently, but then soon after rammadan or one of their festivals, divali? was allowed to be advertised everywhere with big parties etc! and what about france, chirac wants to ban muslim girls from wearing their headdress things in school! they are pretty racist in france though, chirac only got in because the only other choice was Le Pen = evenmore right wing!

anyway, whatever you believe in youre always right :D

[ShadowNightWing]

Some very interesting points here very very interesting. I come to the conclusion that Im looking forward to challenging those non-believers in an all out debate. Whos Game? (Speaking to the true Non-God Believers.)

[nerve]

you're provoking a flame war... :roll:

[nerve]

Originally posted by AnOmnipresenceInTheWired+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(AnOmnipresenceInTheWired)</div>I put my faith in the only thing I can, Humanity... [/b]

humanity. is. sick.


period.

<!--QuoteBegin-AnOmnipresenceInTheWired
The world to me is perfect...


same here....

[theroguechemist]

Originally posted by ShadowNightWing
Some very interesting points here very very interesting. I come to the conclusion that Im looking forward to challenging those non-believers in an all out debate. Whos Game? (Speaking to the true Non-God Believers.)
Let me first begin by telling everyone I'm sorry for a lot of my previous posts.

I'm not 'game' to this. You cannot change someone to become like you, merely through words and arguements, especially on something so deeply ingrained upon themselves such as their personal faith. You truely have to make the choice for yourself. I've finally realized this. It'd be pointless, save for another angry debate, which would lead nowhere. Besides, what does it matter if Person A doesn't believe what you believe? It's their loss? Who cares...

[munkle]

I was just thinking about something, religions are supposed to bring people together whether it's from love or worship or whatever. But look at this post, seven pages of posts about what is and isn't, who gods is and other disagreements. Was this the purpose for religion? And the world is worse, people are running around killing each other over a few buildings and the religious aspects. If the purpose of religions was to bring people together, then why are more people dying every day?

I'm still wondering about how there can be more than one "True" religion. I don't know, maybe I'm just thinking too analytically because last I time I checked, when one thing is true, everything else should be false (I know this is not true for all things, I'm just trying to make a point).

And about the order of existence thing, what if there was no god? Then he wouldn't have to create himself. If it's something that a person can't comprehend, then why not try to find a different solution? Of course this leads to a lot of other questions, like where did matter come from and how the universe began. This of course leads back to the question of how can something come from nothing. But now it's science theory instead theological theory. This way you don't need to drag religion in when you are debating.

Please don't take this as an invitation to start a debate or a flame war.

[ShadowNightWing]

Originally posted by theroguechemist
I'm not 'game' to this. You cannot change someone to become like you, merely through words and arguements, especially on something so deeply ingrained upon themselves such as their personal faith. You truely have to make the choice for yourself. I've finally realized this. It'd be pointless, save for another angry debate, which would lead nowhere. Besides, what does it matter if Person A doesn't believe what you believe? It's their loss? Who cares...

Im not trying to get anyone to become like me. I am just as all of use are unique individuals, no two are totally alike. But It is also written that this word of the Kingdom will be preached to all Man-Kind. So be it.. Anyway if everyone so sted-fast on their own beliefs whats a little debate going to hurt. What are you afraid of?

[theroguechemist]

nutthin... I could take the heat. can u? :shock:

[WerBurN]

DUN DUN DUNNNNNNN *enter dramatic music*

[ShadowNightWing]

Originally posted by theroguechemist
nutthin... I could take the heat. can u? :shock:


Actaully I can take the heat also Wanna kick it A notch? Okay I'll start things.

Now is it that yo do not believe that there is a Creator, or is it that you have seen so much hypocrisy in the churches that you have no faith in what they teach? If for any reason its the latter, There is a great difference between the churches of Christendom and true Christianity. It is true that Christendom has oppressed people, but Christianity has not. Christendom has failed to provide moral direction God's word, the Bible , does not support Christendom. On the contrary, it condemns Christendom.

Or if you only believe in what you can see then thats a very comman view point, because we live in a society that emphasizes on material possessions. But I know you are a person who likes to be realistic right?

The Floor is yours buddy. No converting Just conversation.

[theroguechemist]

I haven't read your entire post, but... Shouldn't there be a new thread for this?

[theroguechemist]

As a kid, growing up, religion never really clicked for me. I suppose that started it all, or at least, put me at a distinctive advantage in crossing over.

I believe that there is no Creator and no Christian God (or any God(s)). I suppose you said it right in that I'm much of a realist. I search for truth, and factual or probable evidence to support things that I observe in this world. Sadly, my belief in Atheism isn't grounded on strong evidence. Only probable. And at that, weak evidence.

There's always the always-evident observation that, if God were real (speaking to the Christian God, that is), then why hasn't he shown himself? Why, when I, you, when anyone, prays, why doesn't He answer? "Give me a sign..." I never found any signs...

When a child is born, they are born an Atheist. If you think about this you will realize it is true. As an infant or todler, they have no purpose for religion, yet it is forced upon them by their parents and their friends they will soon come to meet. A lot of you may agree a child isn't mature enough to make educated decisions. They will usually take things in, especially if their most trusted people in the world, their parents, say it is True, and force it upon them.

After so many years, the child will never so much as question his/her faith. With so many years, They will have already taken religion as truth and cannot see anything as an alternative. Religion is part of the world. God is real. It's nice for a child, or anyone for that matter, to have God there, as an idea to fall back on when times are down. It's a nice light at the end of the tunnel. I've grown to perceive this deception, and I'm surprisingly ok with it.

The beliefs of an Atheist make perfect sense to me, much as Christianity (I'm assuming) makes perfect sense to you. I "know" I am right, just as you do too. The world, when taken at face value, makes so much sense without a God. I am an evolutionist, I believe in the Darwinian theories. When someone makes the claim that "How can something so complex as the eye be the result of evolution? No, it can't be. It has to be the work of a God.", I have not an arguement to combat that other than myself knowing how evolution works, and how it can spawn such complex organs as the [human] eye.

As you can see, I have very weak footholds on this. I cannot really explain it. I no longer wish for anyone to become Atheist, it's a choice for themselves.

---

Recently, however, I have began to ponder the universe, a multiverse, and "Why is matter?" It is a much more deeper question that mere "What is the purpose of life?" or something of that sort. Perceiving true nothingness is quite tickling to say the least. I once perceived, shortly, that there may be a devine intelligence of the entire... whatever-the-entire-multiverse-is-in. Maybe... I doubt it.. That's more of a belief.. Sounds a bit too much like another fad religion to me.

---

I haven't really go into anything too much; but, well, see, I'm gonna go to a friend's house now. So... Goodbye.

[ShadowNightWing]

I've read your post and its extremely intersting to me, I Got a few questions I want to ask but the time is limited so I'll be back to this soon. See ya later buddy.

[evangel]

Originally posted by theroguechemist
agreed. that's what everyone uses as an arguement when they are confronted with a good atheistic arguement.


"good atheistic" hhmmmm. isn't that kind of oxymoronic? :wink: oh, and to NOT assume that there is still information that is too much for your brain in its current status to understand is also narrow minded. In OTHER words, if you think you know a lot, you're actually an ignoramus :lol:
So, the "excuse" used above (that some things are too much for us to comprehend) is closer to the truth than the assumption that we can know a lot (much less, ANYTHING AT ALL). -The more you know, the more you know you DON'T know... :biggrin:

science is only convenient for our present reality... In another 150 years or so (if we're still here), we'll probably be looking back at current scientific innovation the same way we now look back at medieval scientific explanations... not only will they be outdated, but we will once again wonder at our own ignorance... so to trust in "humanity" or "science" is to trust (put faith in)in something that will no longer exist (as we know it now) -very soon. Pretty futile stuff.

Oh... watch out for that New World Translation. The Watchtower is renowned for its biased methods of translation...

[jacobo]

god is dead
and no one cares
if there is a hell
i'll see you there.

:bowdown:

[evangel]

Originally posted by theroguechemist

There's always the always-evident observation that, if God were real (speaking to the Christian God, that is), then why hasn't he shown himself? Why, when I, you, when anyone, prays, why doesn't He answer? \"Give me a sign...\" I never found any signs...


It takes just as much faith to believe in science as it does to believe in God. In fact, I would say it's much EASIER in one sense to believe (trust) in science since science is mostly subject to proof of the five senses, whereas trusting in something (someone) you cannot see is very difficult.
As for the above questions: He HAS shown himself (in the life, death, and resurrection of Christ) God DOES answer prayer (of those who seek him in truth, humility, and in faith). And those who seek "signs" Jesus openly condemns. People that need miracles and signs do not put their faith in God... they put their faith in miracles and signs.

Matthew 12
The Sign of Jonah
"38Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you."
39He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here. 42The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here."

[Howie]

I think religion is a good cruch for society because, like you sad, peaple are afraid of the wrath that would follow. So a lot of peaple try to be good. But religion has killed more peaple than any other thing on this planet- how ironic..
- every culture has come up with there own religion, even without outside influence because peaple need an answer for death. So how can any one person truely believe that their relion is "THE ONE".??
- Some say because it is all right there in the Bible. But ponder this. Every document including our own constitution (which has not been around very long) has changed over time. So over a couple thousand years how much must have the Bible Been tweeked a little here and a little there. Hence rendering it's subtacne qustionable
- Over all I think We would be a pretty well of society if we were to stick to the ten Commandments.

[Lucius]

I have no idea what exactly has been going as I only read the posts on the last page but Im going to try and join this convo..if it doesnt turn into a bashing party lol

First of all, when I grew up I was never forced learning any religion, I grew up, and nobody EVER taught me anything about relgion, but still I turned religious..in a sense, but I did it on my own, I believe every child should be allowed to grow up and find religion on its own, though some basic ideas about respect,peace and harmony should be learned though, but not real absolute religions should be forced upon it.

The way I see it, there is no true religion, there is no absolute truth, but at the same time nobody is wrong. Religion, in my eyes, should not be a lifepath, simply a guide. It should be there to help you develope as a person and as a soul, of course I believe in reincarnation, and some do not..but I think souls need to undergo all sorts of lifes, situations and proces' to gain the nessasary wisdom. Religion is one of those things, it can be vital in a persons and souls growth.

I am not completely going to explain my views on how this universe, how the entire cosmos is build, and what "God" is, or if he even exists, unless somebody would like to know.

The main thing that ennoys me about some religions is that some people just takes their religion as the absolute truth and say all others are wrong, this is a little bit closed minded if I may say so. People have to learn that all religions hold some truth, that all can be right, that most religions plead for the same values such as peace,harmony, compassion and so on.

I think, that whatever you believe in, wether that is heaven and hell, reincarnation and the laws of the cosmos, or whatever other system, it does not truely matter what you believe..as long as you go trough life respecting it. Being kind to others, showing compassion, helping out others were you can, concerving the planet, upkeeping the balance and the peace..etc, you will be rewarded, but the truth is, one should not even want to be rewarded for such actions if you ask me.

I think a souls path is so endlessly long, and so is the process, one can never learn the things one must learn in one life, one must have experienced many things before a soul can exist on another plane, before it is worthy of ascending. There is so many to tell about all this...but we can endlessly talk about this aswell.

My general opinion is, that people, religious people should be more open minded about other religions, and about other people. I think all religions should show respect to all people. Religion is about spreading as much positive energy as possible, not about hating other people. Some religious people forget about that..

I would actually like to know, you christians here, what do you think about the gay bashing part of christianity? Do you think it is right? Will that bring the most peace and harmony? Wont it cause just hate between certain groups and individuals? (and Im not saying all christians do it, but some do)

I would just like to know, myself being gay as you know has nothing to do with it..just wish to know what you think.

[evangel]

Originally posted by Lucius
there is no absolute truth...

I would actually like to know, you christians here, what do you think about the gay bashing part of christianity? Do you think it is right? Will that bring the most peace and harmony? Wont it cause just hate between certain groups and individuals? (and Im not saying all christians do it, but some do)


This topic (absolute truth/relative truth) has come up several other times...
That claim is not logical :!:

It is contradictory!

-->When someone says "there is no absolute truth," they are assuming that THAT STATEMENT is ABSOLUTELY TRUE, which cannot make any sense. Furthermore, when you state that there is no absolute truth, then go on to espouse a bunch of ideas and opinions (which you also assume or believe to be true), you render your own points moot. :P

As far as gay bashing, I believe it's wrong. I also believe homosexuality is a sin, but no greater or less than any other sin (which makes gays no worse or better off than any other human being.

[Lucius]

"When someone says "there is no absolute truth," they are assuming that THAT STATEMENT is ABSOLUTELY TRUE, which cannot make any sense"

haha! LOL, yeah your right about that one lol, but I kinda mean there is no absolute religion that is right, while others are wrong.

What im trying to say is that all religions held some truth, and that you can learn from all of them. Also that people from a certain religion shouldnt see other people from other religions as "wrong" and saying they will not get the reward they get. I mean I believe in something christians dont, but I still think the (good) christians will be rewarded for their goodness, just like any other religious person that generates positive energy.

I mean really, is the other 60-80% of the population really doing somethign wrong then when it comes to religion? (this is a question to all people who do think all other religions are false/wrong)

And why was it that a certain religion was never completely introduced into the east/west, maybe because there is no absolute religion? Just a tought. I still think religion is just a guide line to help you grow as a person/soul, not to tell you how to live your life completely, though you should upkeep the values all religions stand for like compassion, peace, harmony,generousity, selflessnes, kindness etc.

[Seeker]

Split 'gay' topic out into it's own. Sorry, but a little of the religion argument went with it.

The line was blurred in a couple of posts!

Here are Evangels comments just to keep it going:

Howetzer: Shouldn't the questions regarding gays be in a new thread or something?

Originally posted by Lucius

...I still think the (good) christians will be rewarded for their goodness, just like any other religious person that generates positive energy.

I mean really, is the other 60-80% of the population really doing somethign wrong then when it comes to religion? (this is a question to all people who do think all other religions are false/wrong)


That's where I see Christianity as different from other religions. I believe(as a Christian) that there is NOTHING I can do to earn merit (generate positive energy) in the eyes of God. Even my best most "pure" deeds are stained and blotted by my sin. It is only by the merit and sacrifice of Christ that one gains entrance into heaven. The only true good deeds then come afterwards as a natural outpouring of the Spirit of God that lives within someone -not as some sort of good/bad merit system. There is none who can do good apart from God because our selfishness (sin) is so deeply ingrained in our nature... That's the whole reasoning behind the need for Christ's sacrifice (which even many Christians have a hard time understanding) -that in HIS perfection, by HIS perfect blood, the sin of those who would believe is covered in his mercy and love... as fer the 60-80%... Actually, it would be more accurate to say 100% are doing something wrong and WE ALL need to ask for mercy and forgiveness... I don't like pointing fingers because I know I'm no better than anyone else, whether a pagan, Muslim, Christian, or otherwise. Religion can do nothing for you apart from faith in Christ (in other words I think a PERSONAL relationship with and knowledge of God is much more important to salvation than claiming affiliation to any church or religion). This probably does not answer your question exactly, but I still encourage anyone and all to seek God in brokenness who turns his ear to those who are lowly in spirit!

[Maystar]

focus on something and it will keep occuring.
shift you focus and it will diminish slightly allowing room for something else.... don't think to much about one thing - make sure you see the larger picture at all times...

i used to make a lot of decisions that left a sickie feeling in my stomach - but i could get on with things .... later the consequences would always occur - I was a fool to think they never would.

now i never make decisions that leave an empty hollow or sickie feeling in my stomach.

thats not saying i don't take risks - because i do.

i've learnt to respect all others - to see things from as many points of view as possible. then you start to understand why people do what they do - even if it is mindless violence. but it's not mindless to them.

noone will ever understand anything completely but we can go a long way at attempting to.

just start becoming more aware and you'll see fantastic things - belief in religon or not.

why follow something that is dictated?

but as long as it is your choice then you should be at ease.

[ShadowNightWing]

Originally posted by Maystar
focus on something and it will keep occuring.
shift you focus and it will diminish slightly allowing room for something else.... don't think to much about one thing - make sure you see the larger picture at all times...

i used to make a lot of decisions that left a sickie feeling in my stomach - but i could get on with things .... later the consequences would always occur - I was a fool to think they never would.

now i never make decisions that leave an empty hollow or sickie feeling in my stomach.

thats not saying i don't take risks - because i do.

i've learnt to respect all others - to see things from as many points of view as possible. then you start to understand why people do what they do - even if it is mindless violence. but it's not mindless to them.

noone will ever understand anything completely but we can go a long way at attempting to.

just start becoming more aware and you'll see fantastic things - belief in religon or not.

why follow something that is dictated?

but as long as it is your choice then you should be at ease.

Beautifully Stated. If I may say so myself :goodjob:

[evangel]

Originally posted by Maystar


why follow something that is dictated?


Do you mean that someone is able to assume that since they have "made up their own mind," they are more free thinking than someone else?

The way I see it, one cannot afford to not .

I guess my main problem with the above question is that it assumes that the person asking the question does not follow "something that has been dictated." -And that those who do "follow what is dictated" are somehow irrational or inferior to those who like to think of themselves as :idea: "free-thinkers."

It seems that this question follows from the idea that there is no absolute truth, which, once again, I see as contradictory and illogical. If it IS illogical that there is no absolute truth, it would make sense then that absolute Truth does exist. If there IS absolute Truth, it behooves all of us to at least seek to grasp that truth instead of skating around it and seeking what is convenient to our own whims, desires, and beliefs. I am not directing this in particular to you, Maystar, but to anyone who believes that each religion or world view or "truth" as it were is equally valid (which makes no sense).

[Lucius]

Once again with IM trying to put here with the absolute truth thing is that, if there WAS an absolute truth this would mean only ONE religion would be right and all other religions would be believing the wrong thing.
Also what Im trying to put down is that nobody,that believes in a good hearted religion is believing something that is wrong or senseless.

Because if only one religion would be right, then at least 75% of the population would be believing something that is not true, does not exist, is false etc, thats my point. And if you think your religion is the absolute truth, so do alot of other religions, and gues what, one of all you people will be wrong is there is absolute truth, and nobody, christian or muslim, budhhist or pagan, has more chance of being right in the end. One of them is right, the others are mistaken. At least, if there was an absolute truth.

[evangel]

That's true!

I would disagree with the "chance" part, though. I don't believe in chance. I believe in certainty...

I would never say that "my religion is right" -only because that is not an absolutely true statement (and because it seems to imply a judgmental attitude). I would, however, say the Jesus is right (in an absolute sense). I say this, not out of blind faith in Him or (even less so) in a religion, but out of a combination of faith, experience, prayer, and study. If, by default, that makes all those who oopose or contradict Jesus' teaching wrong, so be it. I will say that I can learn a lot from studying other religions -but only as a contrast and provision for context for my understanding of God and my relationship with Him.

[Lucius]

Evangel,

I respect your views on all this, but I would like to know, what do you say if I ask you, are the religions that don't see Jezus Christ as the savior wrong then? Like Buddism/Hinduism/Pagan Believes/Islam. Are they wrong as in, they are doing the religiously spoken wrong thing? I'm not saying you woudl see them as "wrong" entirely, but just, wrong as in its not the correct thing to not believe in Christ as the savior.

If so, then please anwer this question, if Jezus Christ is the savior of entire men kind and he is for all, then why, was he never truely introduced in the entire east, why did other religions start to exist in the east(even before christianity), why did God not interfere with that, surely he would not like to see 60% of the earths population be doomed?

Why did other religons exist before christianity anyway? Were they all false? Im not attacking you or anything, nor am I trying to trow you of balance or trying to win a convo or somethign, Im just curious what you think about that. Why did God even allow other religions that were diffirent from th christian ideas, such as reincarnation?

That too, makes me think, that there is no such thing as an absolute RELIGIOUS truth.

[ShadowNightWing]

Originally posted by Lucius
Evangel,

I respect your views on all this, but I would like to know, what do you say if I ask you, are the religions that don't see Jezus Christ as the savior wrong then? Like Buddism/Hinduism/Pagan Believes/Islam. Are they wrong as in, they are doing the religiously spoken wrong thing? I'm not saying you woudl see them as \"wrong\" entirely, but just, wrong as in its not the correct thing to not believe in Christ as the savior.

If so, then please anwer this question, if Jezus Christ is the savior of entire men kind and he is for all, then why, was he never truely introduced in the entire east, why did other religions start to exist in the east(even before christianity), why did God not interfere with that, surely he would not like to see 60% of the earths population be doomed?

Why did other religons exist before christianity anyway? Were they all false? Im not attacking you or anything, nor am I trying to trow you of balance or trying to win a convo or somethign, Im just curious what you think about that. Why did God even allow other religions that were diffirent from th christian ideas, such as reincarnation?

That too, makes me think, that there is no such thing as an absolute RELIGIOUS truth.

If you don't mind Evangel I like to take a crack at this one.

A recent tabulation concluded that there are 10 main religions and some 10,000 sects. Of these, some 6,000 exsist in Africia, 1,200 in the United States, and hundreds in other lands.

Many factors have contributed to the development of new religious groups. Some have said that the various religions all represent different ways of presenting religious truth. But a compariosn of their teachings and practices with what the Bible indicates, rather, that the diversity of religions is because people have become followers of men instead of listening to GOD. It is noteworhty that, to a large extent, teachings they hold in common, but that differ from the Bible, originated in acient Babylon.

You may ask yourself. Who is the instigator of such religious confusion?" The Bible identifies Satan the Devil as "the god of this system of things" It warns us that "the things which the nations sacrifice they sacrifice to demons, and not to God." So No this is not something that GOD has put upon people this is Satan's doing. And I don't recall any other religions exsisting before christianity. And I believe he allows these things to come about because God wants only his true followers the rightous individuals, thus those who are so easily influenced by Satan and follow his works will be delt with. We all have free will and this will never be taken away from us but its just like making a new friend that friend has to earn your Trust you just don't get it at the begining. You gotta prove yourself. Evangel may have some different viewpoints im not sure. But I had put my answers down because thats such a brilliant question Lucius.

[evangel]

Originally posted by Lucius

If so, then please anwer this question, if Jezus Christ is the savior of entire men kind and he is for all, then why, was he never truely introduced in the entire east, why did other religions start to exist in the east(even before christianity), why did God not interfere with that, surely he would not like to see 60% of the earths population be doomed?

Why did other religons exist before christianity anyway? Were they all false? Im not attacking you or anything, nor am I trying to trow you of balance or trying to win a convo or somethign, Im just curious what you think about that. Why did God even allow other religions that were diffirent from th christian ideas, such as reincarnation?

That too, makes me think, that there is no such thing as an absolute RELIGIOUS truth.

That's a lot of Qs there...
Firstly,about your last statement: You said you believe in reincarnation, if I'm correct? Isn't that an ABSOLUTE TRUTH? In other words the statement "Reincarnation is a reality" is either absolutely true or it's not true...
The Bible does make reference to Christ as the savior "of the world" but I believe that in the context, the writer is speaking about salvation going out (through the good news of Christ's sacrifice) to all of the nations (not just Jewish people any longer). So, in essence, Christ is not the savior of the "whole world" (he does not save everyone -only those whom he sovereignly chooses), but he is the savior of people from all different nations under the New Covenant (New Testament).
The idea that God needs to be "fair" by "introducing" himself to the whole world brings up the idea of fairness and justice. God "owes" nothing to no one. We sometimes get the idea that because he is love, he somehow "owes" certain things to us. If he saves ANYONE, it is by his mercy and love, governed by his will. Furthermore, there is virtually no nation existing now, that has not had Christian missionaries sharing the gospel (the revelation of God and his redemptive plan in his Word). In spite of this, people still reject God. Jesus spoke about people who demanded signs and miracles (as proof that he was God), yet even after he performed them, MANY people still rejected him. So... the question arises of how much proof is needed for people to believe? Christ is still rejected, no matter how much proof is given to us. It is only by his spirit that we are enabled to believe.
I believe that God is sovereign, meaning that he has absolute control over every neutron, proton, hair, grain of sand, etc, (thus there's no room for chance... ) To say that God surely wouldn't want 60% of the earth to be doomed/damned/condemned kind of assumes that he is not in control... To me, God does not owe anyone salvation, much less air to breathe, food to eat, etc. So to me, it is more puzzling why he has decided to offer salvation to anyone at all, much less a buncha foo's (yes, I refer to myself, and other Christians :D ) Scripture says that God has chosen the lowly and foolish things in order that the "wisdom of the wise would be confounded."
If you're speaking in terms of "organized religion", yes there were and have been many other religions before Christianity, however, the Biblical account, starting with Genesis deals with mankind and his plight from the beginning of time as we know it (starting with Adam) The geneology and history recorded is that of the Jewish people (Israel) who, from the beginning of their relationship to God (which began with Adam) always have the focal point of sin and man's need for a Savior. So... my point is that the Christ is and has always been the focal point of both Judaism (which is, according to the Biblical account, the oldest religion, -though it was not identified as such by mankind until recordable rites, laws, traditions, and holidays, etc. were introduced) and Christianity
...whew. :P mouthful. I don't have answers to all questions, but I do believe that those who seek answers and do so with an heart that is opened to the work of God's Spirit will receive not only the answers they seek, but much more than that... I enjoy this kind of interaction :) (as you can probably tell), and never accuse people of personal attack, unless they are blatantly attacking me, or that which I love the most, have at it! Heat is good for mental and spiritual stimulation!

[Lucius]

Wow, alot of things to say indeed.

I believe in reincarnation yes..an absolute truth? Nah, I see things more as a PERSONAL truth, it apears as the absolute truth for me, but that does not mean that it IS the absolute truth persay. The absolute truth is either inexistant or unknown I think, but there are many personal truths.

But then yes what might worry one is that either that personal truth is true or not..I mean, there is either reincarnation or there is not, strange isnt it, one of us is going to be wrong in the end..and both of us are probally convinced of their religion.

And about the oldest religion..Im not sure but I recall Hinduism as being the oldest, currently still largely existing, religion, not sure about that though. But its pretty old for sure, and I think it was probally there in the east before any christian or christian related messengers were ever in the east.

To reply to what shadow said, that satan would have brought this religions on the earth seems unlikely to me. If satan would bring a religion certainly it would be something like satanism, like the existing satanism(wich is stupid btw). And not a peaceful religion like hinduism or buddhism.

And the reason why many people (in the east for example) still are rejecting christ, is because they already found their own religions, personal truths, and personal proof. Its same with a christian, he would never accept the essence of buddha and the bodies of buddha, or the gods of the hindu, or the idea of reincarnation and so on.

I still keep to my point that no religion(exept evil ones like satanism) is doing somethign spiritualy speaking "wrong" or "incorrect" thing.
Its just for your personal growth and developement as a person, and as a soul.

Aslo, I know you cant answer all question, but even before the nowdays religions, even the old ones like the jews or the hindus, there were other religions. What about the religions of ancient civilisations, or the greek believe in the gods(zeus,apollo,mars,jupiter etc), or the egyptian believe (ra,horus,anubis etc) in their gods? More question that make me bring to the fact that there is no absolute religious truth that is right persay

[ShadowNightWing]

Wow Evangel that was a mouthful, but I must admit it was perfectly stated. You've pointed out so many great and inspiring aspects on this issue. Just wanted to point that out. See ya around.

[DMC]

Unlike you, the original poster, I feel religion and belief are not the same thing. Belief is dynamic, while religion tries to stiffle the change. The whole concept of religion is to accept a suggestion as being a fact, without question it's validity. Belief is what you know, religion is what you want to believe.

[evangel]

Originally posted by Lucius

1)strange isnt it, one of us is going to be wrong in the end..and both of us are probally convinced of their religion. *

2)To reply to what shadow said, that satan would have brought this religions on the earth seems unlikely to me. If satan would bring a religion certainly it would be something like satanism, like the existing satanism(wich is stupid btw). And not a peaceful religion like hinduism or buddhism. *

3)And the reason why many people (in the east for example) still are rejecting christ, is because they already found their own religions, personal truths, and personal proof. *


Strange indeed. Someday, these mysteries will be revealed to all. :peek:

Actually, Satan is known as the "father of lies," so it would behoove him/them to be as subtle as possible. In other words, he's no dummy who's going to use blatant and obvious techniques. The scriptures say that he often appears to people as "an angel of light," and that he has been given dominion of the earth by God (except over God's chosen people). Thus, it would, in my book, also behoove him(them) to create as many religions and systems of thought as possible that would distract people from the Truth or from even believing that there is a Truth in any absolute sense. Satan is also known as a master of confusion, chaos, and destruction who has been demoted from heaven because of his pride and desire to "dethrone" God and take as many along to hell with him.

The trend I see these days is for people to reject Christ, not because of religion so much as anti-religion (humanism or atheists/ultra agnostic or intellectual "skeptics" who question everything).

[Lucius]

"The trend I see these days is for people to reject Christ, not because of religion so much as anti-religion (humanism or atheists/ultra agnostic or intellectual "skeptics" who question everything)."

True, its a shame. I myself reject christ, well reject, christian would say I "reject" him because I dont see him as the savior. But I do this because I found my hail in another religion. But do you truely think then, that satan unleashed all those other religions among the earth?

I dont joke about satan, because I know that many people seriously see him as the cause of many trouble..but the way I see, the people bring the trouble on themselves, their own negativity is coming back to them.

I dont have much other things to say right now..you gave me alot enlighting information about how christians think, its not the way I think of course..

But Evangel,
But really, I think you are one of the good christians out there, yes I feel like christians are forgetting the true concept of christianity and religion in general..you might not believe what I say and disagree with me, but you believe you are sinful and can only be saved by Christ, well, I'll speak of my religious view..you are a respectable person that is actually good for the planet, dont ever give up your religion, you are passionate, that is very admirable, and many people can learn from that, from all religions. And especially non religious people.
With people ike you I kinda forget about religious diffirences, and just see us as the religious people, lets never lose our religion, and stand up against the boring,rational,atheitistic views of nowadays! (no offense against those people, but we have to compensate ^_^)

Keep it up! ^_^ :goodjob:

[WerBurN]

i joke about satan cause hes a loser who has no power over me cause i know where its at...hes stuck and im not so ppppbbbbblllltttt!

[evangel]

Don't underestimate the subtlety....

Originally posted by Lucius

But do you truely think then, that satan unleashed all those other religions among the earth?

But Evangel,
... you are passionate, that is very admirable, and many people can learn from that, from all religions. And especially non religious people.
Keep it up!

Thanks.
I think that the majority of people (including those Christians who seem to see everything bad as a "satanic attack" :roll: ) bring trouble upon themselves by their own sin and ignorance most of the time (I also speak from my own experience :P ). Satan doesn't even have to worry about those kinds of people because they take care of themselves... To me, satan is very real, although he/they do not have the authority or influence that many Christians suppose. His role in scripture is generally to "deceive the nations," and to attack and accuse those who claim affinity to Christ. Also, satan is often used as a generric term which means "the enemy/accuser/tempter of mankind" or something similar... all those notions of creatures/demons with horns and such are cartoonish to me. In my experience, satan is especially effective in finding weakness in the area of physical lust, guilt, anger, and fear -all of which are intertwined in the human psyche.

Speaking of passionate... :pissed: Though I have not seen it yet, I have heard enough good reviews from reputable Christians to believe that The Passion of Christ will be an accurate depiction and entertaining movie, so I encourage those skeptics who are not so willing to pick up the Bible to at least go and see this movie! From what I hear, it is a very passionate and explicit look at the pinnacle of Christ's life on earth.

1st John Ch. 1
"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched--this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. We write this to make our joy complete.
Walking in the light
This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives."

:reading: :yumdumdoodledum:

[Lucius]

There ^_^ Religious convo can be nice when you are talking to the right person. Generally its hard to talk about religion because...well I dont know lol, people just are feeling a little hostile alot, hostile convo, even the slightest just sucks.

If anybody, or you, have any more religious questions or subjects to talk about its fine with me, as long as it doesnt get hostile or unfriendly ^_^

[evangel]

A lot of times I think that people make wild claims, criticisms, or arguments without knowing enough to back up their claims... (or maybe they know a lot, but are just very emotional about it) but I guess that's prolly true of any controversial topic. I think controversy's good, as long as you enter into it with a logical stance and a mind that's willing to learn. If it's just going to be a bunch of emotional lambasting, :pissed: :listenup: :damnit: things usually get ugly real fast. I'm curious to hear more about what people think about cults, or churches/organizations with cult-like practices... and if anyone knows more about Native American or Aborginal groups that have a high regard for dreaming...

[Lucius]

Cults?

It depends of course..most cults arnt to pretty..sects..

The thing I dont like about most cults is that people blindly follow a leader who gives empty promises. Also the people in cults are alot of the times obsessed with their religion, which is not a good thing.

I dont say cults are evil/wrong/idiotic persay, but I just think they are doing some things in the wrong way, alot of them at least, probally not all of them.

There are probally culs are over the place, of existing religions and of new religions. Most of these cults are probally a bit messed up, I mean the things some people do for some leader its just insane, you dont blindly follow a person, especially not somebody who claims to be superior and a direct messenger from whatever gods or god the cult worships, those sect leaders are just as corrupt as it gets most of the time, bleh :madtongue:

Follow your own heart, not somebody elses

[evangel]

Originally posted by Lucius

Follow your own heart, not somebody elses

If I followed my own heart, I'd be a greedy, self-seeking, humanistic, womanizing sumbi*** :cooler:
soooo.. that's why I try to follow Christ's heart -the heart of mercy, peace, justice, faith, and humility... among many other things, of course. :angel:

[jacobo]

Originally posted by evangel+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(evangel)</div><!--QuoteBegin-Lucius

Follow your own heart, not somebody elses

If I followed my own heart, I'd be a greedy, self-seeking, humanistic, womanizing sumbi*** :cooler:
soooo.. that's why I try to follow Christ's heart -the heart of mercy, peace, justice, faith, and humility... among many other things, of course. :angel:[/b]

do you know sigmund freud's theory? if not you should read a little i like the way he proposes the id, ego, and superego... http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/freud.html just something to think about.

[Lucius]

Evangel,

Basicly you say your own heart disagrees with the heart of Christ? Really, I dont think you would be a greedy etc person. I follow my own heart for a big part, and the heart of the everything, the cosmos. I learn from The Buddhas ideas, but I dont follow his heart. Im not greedy, I am a-materialistic..Im not a womanizer lol(that figurers) and I am in love with one person and I am forever loyal and I dont even enjoy sex with others, my own heart follows peace,compassion and mercy already, because I know thats the right thing to do. And I dont really follow Christ..

Really, I dont think humans are "sinful" by anture persay, as every single energy in this cosmos its neutral, but it can either turn positive or negative.

[evangel]

I have studied some of the "Fathers" of modern psychology (Freud, Jung, Piaget, etc.) and see that they have much to contribute in the areas of theory like other scientists...

I believe that by nature, we are selfish (as opposed to selfless) You don't have to teach someone to become selfish, or how to lie, or how to be greedy... we all learn those things by default on our own. We do find that selflessness, on the other hand is something that takes more than a lifetime to realize. I go even further and say that because of this selfishness that is ingrained in our very being, something supernatural needs to happen. Christ describes this as being reborn or "born again" which is something that can only happen by the enabling or "quickening" of the Spirit of God. Paul even goes further and describes our spiritual condition as "dead" and unable to seek true good (the kind of good that God sees as perfect and unblemished by man's sin) without the redemptive value of Christ's blood. In other words, Jesus has become a mediator for mankind by his perfection, and thus is the only one ABLE to pay the price for the depth of sin. If my heart is in any way "good," it is only becasue God's Spirit is teaching me and conforming me to the perfection of Christ. The book of Romans goes into this concept in depth, but I think it's summed up pretty well by Paul in Romans Ch. 3... ("he's quoting the Old Testament in the beginning)
10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
together they have become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is upon their lips."
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. 21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be both just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Christ Jesus."

[Seeker]

Hats off to Lucius and Evangel for keeping this a civil and intelligent conversation.

Not to put words in your mouths, but I'm stating this as a lead in to another question:
The basic difference between Lucius and Evangels opinions are that Lucius feels your spirit can evolve and eventually escape this worldly existance(samsara) and rejoin the core by your own efforts.

Evangel believes that salvation is a gift and that there is no action you can take by yourself in order to earn it, and that there is no way by your efforts you can be saved.

Now the question for those of you of other faiths, I am especially interested in the beliefs of our Muslim and Jewish friends.

Are there any other religions out there besides Christianity that believe salvation is a gift from God that cannot be earned? Is this unique to Christianity and the major thing that seperates it from all other religions?

[ShadowNightWing]

Originally posted by Seeker
Hats off to Lucius and Evangel for keeping this a civil and intelligent conversation.

Not to put words in your mouths, but I'm stating this as a lead in to another question:
The basic difference between Lucius and Evangels opinions are that Lucius feels your spirit can evolve and eventually escape this worldly existance(samsara) and rejoin the core by your own efforts.

Evangel believes that salvation is a gift and that there is no action you can take by yourself in order to earn it, and that there is no way by your efforts you can be saved.

Now the question for those of you of other faiths, I am especially interested in the beliefs of our Muslim and Jewish friends.

Are there any other religions out there besides Christianity that believe salvation is a gift from God that cannot be earned? *Is this unique to Christianity and the major thing that seperates it from all other religions?

Yeah I agree. I like the way they handled this, alot better than I have. And I would like to here more individuals of Christianity thoughts as well not desively of Christendom. Great going Guys :goodjob2:

[Lucius]

Yeah, I like this convo too, I love to hear about other peoples religious opinions regardless of what I feel about them, as long as it doesnt get hostile, and tis not ^_^

So yeah I would like to hear more from others aswell, or a new question or going on the current subject, its a nice convo so far ^_^

[Blulanou42]

I see no difference in either Lucius' or Evangel's arguments,
just they each practice different 'rituals'

both are idols--all egos are idols-- all self is God...but!

for one person to fit all of God inside of them, tehy must be clear of ALL
ritual, for God is none of these, even through all rituals are contained in God.

The empty heart the neutral mind the christ spirit
the boddhisitava those who wander who are, indeed, not lost

there are a million different ways to transcend
but the epic hero is so rarified, so unique and unwielding
yet it is as though by following fate, the hero in fact
wields to everything...
have no hope for yourself, and boundless love for all creation and void
and hope will be your very footsteps, love will be your life
because you DO love
instead of worshiping self first and THEN loving

pull the splinter from your eye first

[evangel]

:? It's impossible to comment or argue with someone whose faith and understanding is so drenched in ambiguity...

[Seeker]

Well, nobody has stepped up to answer my question. What do you think Evangel?

As far as I know, Christianity is the only religion that teaches salvation as a free gift instead of something that must be earned.

Do you know of any others claiming this? I cannot think of one!

[evangel]

As far as I know, this is unique to Christianity... however, there are still many self-professed Christians who also do not understand the concept and doctrine of grace (It is very difficult to accept because there is something innate in humans that makes us want to earn merit or good standing on our own). I happen to have a love for this doctrine :bravo: above all other Biblical doctrine because it speaks so strongly of God's mercy, justice, and most of all his agape love. There is NOTHING we can do that is good! This is also an obvious love of Paul's because he mentions it and expounds on it so much in his letters to the early Christians. I think that Muslims and Jews also have an understanding of this, but I'd venture to say that most Jews, Muslims and Christians alike all still fall under the misleading idea that we are able to do good or earn some sort of righteousness by following a moral law, code, or religious tenets. To me, this is the beauty of Christ - that salvation is given is a free gift... to those who would believe. The following sums up the concept of grace, I think...
Grace - receiving favor/gifts where none is deserved
Justice - receiving what is deserved
Romans 5:18-21
"Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

[Lynx]

If salvation is free in christianity then why do some people lock themselves away in monasteries/convents, spending their lives in prayer? It seems pointless if theres no need, just a thought.

[Lowercase Society]

I just watched the movie 'The Passion of the Christ'
Tears were running down my face.
No one could make that up, it happened.

He died for me, for us. But WHY! i ask him...sobbing in my pool of tears on the floor, I AM NOT WORTHY FOR YOU TO DIE FOR ME! i am just a human being, not worthy even to talk to you...

But the only answer i get back from His sweet, amazingly calm voice is, 'I did it because i love you, and i want to spend eternity with you.'
I hate religion. I hate all the cerimonial stuff that people believe you have to do to get into heaven.

Christianity is not cerimonial...its about a relationship with God.
Everyone is entitled to their beliefs, i know this is very politically correct. but i guess if someone is not sure, they will see after death.

I know everyone here believes in different things, but i can honestly say that I have heard the voice of Jesus countless times, I have had some problems and i hate to say it, but i am not a christian anymore, but i do know God.

Do you KNOW GOD, or do you just believe in Him?
Thats where the line is drawn from a person going to heaven or not, because all good people do not go to heaven.

:cheers: sorry...i had to vent there...its what i believe.
I love you guys! hopefully you understand me some more now

[Lucius]

God is everything, God is us, We are God, We are everything, God is within us, We are within God, God is nothing, God is Everything, we are everything..

EVERYTHING IS ONE
God is not a person, and jezus is not the savior , jezus is is part of the everything, jezus was wise, jezus was kind, jezus was good, jezus was loving and jezus was the son of god, and so are we.

God is neutral, all is neutral, all is energy, we are energy, we become either positive or negative, all is balance.

Sorry..this is my opinion, Im not bashing anybody here I had to say this too, this is my personal truth. Anybody who doesnt believe it and still is a good,kind-hearted person still receives that what he deserves in my eyes.

It is not our religion that sets our doom our salvation, it is you. You are both, can be both. Can be one

All suffering is caused by human desire, take away human desire and human sufering ends.

The path to enlightment is long and a burden, but it is the path of life, be kind to all, follow the path of goodness, respect the all, and you shall be rewarded, religion, is a but a guide on your path..not a side, you choose..this is not a war. This is life.

This is my personal view things, I am not bashing anybody, this is the way I see it, and if that is a false believe then so be it.., all good hearted people receive *salvation* in the end, not just those who believe in a particular religion, like I said this is not a war..this is not about picking sides..

[evangel]

Originally posted by Lowercase Society

...its about a relationship with God.

I know everyone here believes in different things, but i can honestly say that I have heard the voice of Jesus countless times, I have had some problems and i hate to say it, but i am not a christian anymore, but i do know God.

Do you KNOW GOD, or do you just believe in Him?
Thats where the line is drawn from a person going to heaven or not, because all good people do not go to heaven.


Your not a Christian anymore?... Sounds to me like you are.

Didn't know you had it in you, LCS... Sounds to me as if the rock foundation has been laid in you.

Matthew 7:21-27
"Not everyone that says to me 'Lord, Lord' shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many shall say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have we not cast out demons? and in your name have we not worked great miracles? Then I will say to them: I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of iniquity. Therefore, whoever hears these sayings of mine and follows them, I will liken him to a wise man who builds his house upon a rock. And the rain descended and the floods came, and the wind blew, and beat upon the house; and it did not fall. for it was founded upon the rock. And everyone who hears these sayings of mine, and does them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man who built his house upon the sand. And the rain descended and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell, and great was its fall."

If you study the teachings of Christ it soon becomes apparent that he was more than wise, and more than a spiritual leader/teacher. He was who he claimed to be: The King of Heaven, The High Priest over a nation of priests, Savior and the Alpha and Omega -the First and the Last... he who was once dead and is now Alive! :smitten: Hallelujah.

[Lynx]

Originally posted by Lynx
If salvation is free in christianity then why do some people lock themselves away in monasteries/convents, spending their lives in prayer? It seems pointless if theres no need, just a thought.

Was that a dumb question then? :oops: I understand other religions who do this if they believe they have to work for it, but if the christian god forgives everyone, including murderers? then why become a monk? a priest maybe, to teach others about christianity

if youve already discussed it earlier, sorry - 10 pages is a lot to read!

[Lucius]

WARNING: I DONT WANNA BASH ANYBODY WITH THE FOLLOWING BUT ITS HOW I FEEL:

When I see so many christians in this topic..(and in western society I gues) I feel rather alone in my religions views here, since others of my own views seem to be wise enough not to join in : P

But really..why is it that everybody doesnt see that this isnt a war..that this isnt about picking some side..thats silly. Maybe I subconsiously feel bashed by the christians, other religions are false..and created by satan, Im not mad at you or anything, it just hurts abit. I mean, I keep saying it but its probally a fools word in your eyes I gues..that no religion is truely false..all offer truth and can help you help you on the path of life..its just personal truth.

I have the greatest respect for all streams of christianity but Im going to be honest here, the one thing I dont like about..and about alot of other religions too I gues is that they see other religions and way of thinking as absolutely wrong,incorrect or false.

To be honest here, my heart could not live with being a christian(or something the like), its just not fair sometimes, to other people, or other religions, and other ideas, or other lifestyles. I dont know, Im really so sorry for saying this, I have absolutely no intention of bashing people..or disrespecting them..its just what my heart tells me..hatred,disgust,dispise,rejection(note I dont feel any fo these for christianity,I dont hate it, I don even dislike,I only disagree thats something diffirent,I dont see it as something false,for alot people it does contain truth and it can help them grow) etc of other people are bad emotions..no matter what..this goes for all religious people who do that..why..I could never do that, my heart would break, by my own thinking and actions. Saying somebody is doomed..saying a good hearted,kind,sweet,loving,caring,helpful person is doomed or does not go to heaven(if you believe in heaven)..how can you say that, Im sorry, maybe Im too soft, but my heart breaks over that.

And if that makes my way of thinking false..then I dont care, so be it..if that makes me doomed, so be it..then I'll cry forever in hell.

I respect all of you christians, you are all good persons, and in my eyes you shall all receive good things in the end, because you are good hearted and kind..but I simply dont agree, so maybe Im cursed then in your eyes..again Im sorry, but I had to say this all. I hope one day more peopel will start to see that it is not a war.

[Aphius]

Originally posted by Lucius
But really..why is it that everybody doesnt see that this isnt a war..that this isnt about picking some side..thats sillyI know this too. I also agree with a lot of what you just said. I think that people should stop putting others down due to their beliefs and opinions on other religions. eg. Their beliefs are wrong etc. I think that religion should not be the one thing that dictates your life. I see it as more of a guideline on how to live life to make it full and happy for everyone. I am not really sure what religion i follow, but i know i'd never fight with anyone over what religion is better than the other. I'd rather not have to choose sides...

[Lowercase Society]

[quote]
...its about a relationship with God.

I know everyone here believes in different things, but i can honestly say that I have heard the voice of Jesus countless times, I have had some problems and i hate to say it, but i am not a christian anymore, but i do know God.

Do you KNOW GOD, or do you just believe in Him?
Thats where the line is drawn from a person going to heaven or not, because all good people do not go to heaven.


Your not a Christian anymore?... Sounds to me like you are.

Didn't know you had it in you, LCS... Sounds to me as if the rock foundation has been laid in you.

Matthew 7:21-27
"Not everyone that says to me 'Lord, Lord' shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many shall say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have we not cast out demons? and in your name have we not worked great miracles? Then I will say to them: I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of iniquity. Therefore, whoever hears these sayings of mine and follows them, I will liken him to a wise man who builds his house upon a rock. And the rain descended and the floods came, and the wind blew, and beat upon the house; and it did not fall. for it was founded upon the rock. And everyone who hears these sayings of mine, and does them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man who built his house upon the sand. And the rain descended and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell, and great was its fall."

If you study the teachings of Christ it soon becomes apparent that he was more than wise, and more than a spiritual leader/teacher. He was who he claimed to be: The King of Heaven, The High Priest over a nation of priests, Savior

I was hoping you would reply. Thank you.
I do know God very well, his personality, his FATHER HEART.
I love him, and i know that He loves me more than anyone ever will.

[Blulanou42]

God is genderless

if god is the father, then the void is the mother

both are required of an all encompassing eternity

but religion is not what we SAY, all is sin, all too trite, all idolic before
GOD

so god is nothing and everything, both, ALL all

I do not understand how most westerners make the separation from other more holistic perspectives when these very ideas are contained in the very scriptures alpha omega tao te 0 1 infinity and void

no point here, just some things that i wonder bout, not raggin on anyone's truth

[evangel]

If salvation is free in christianity then why do some people lock themselves away in monasteries/convents, spending their lives in prayer?
Was that a dumb question then? :oops: I understand other religions who do this if they believe they have to work for it, but if the christian god forgives everyone, including murderers? then why become a monk? [/quote]

The scriptures never call us to become hermits or to become seclusionary, in fact, they call us to do the opposite (to teach, evangelize, and influence society rather than alienate ourselves from it), which is why I never fully understood monastaries and convents. I can understand the idea of not wanting distractions/temptations of modern society while in the pursuit of knowing God, but the more prominent distractions are imbedded in the human heart. We cannot escape (sin) by living apart from the world, but it does allow more time to focus on prayer and scripture... I don't know. :| Maybe someone who has lived the monastic life can shed light there.

Lucius: I realize that some of the things I believe are harsh and have what appears to be too much of a "finality" or "judgment" about them. To me, that is the nature of Truth. It is not fair. If it were fair, (I believe) we ALL would be condemned. Even though there are "good" people (good from a human perspective) I believe that "there is none good, no not one." Harsh? Extremely. I'm not speaking for other Christians. I'm not speaking for "Christianity" or for those who share "my religion." I am speaking for myself and what I believe God's Spirit has allowed me to understand. When I read the scriptures, I see that they are very harsh and speak of what we would view as "unfair" or atrocious. When I look at the heart of man, however, I see darkness, utter depravity, and selfishness that is in desperate need of divine intervention and redemption.

[Lucius]

Evangel,

I truely do respect you religion, and that of other christian like individuals who are alike(most are bit alike). But the truth is I could not live with it, my heart could not bear it, to tell others they are believing something false, it hurts people you know, or to tell somebody they will not be going to heaven, thats not exactly the nicest idea for a person thats hasnt really made up his mind. And with all the other things that are like that..

For some reason my heart tells me its not the way I should live, not good for me,or for others. Tell me, if christianity of or its ways were truely the absolute truth then I am apearently not blessed the with gift of believing it.And again I say, when it IS 100% true what is said, then I would cry forever in hell. (no bashing intend, buts its the way I feel)

[evangel]

Originally posted by Lucius
Evangel,
to tell others they are believing something false, it hurts people you know, or to tell somebody they will not be going to heaven, thats not exactly the nicest idea for a person thats hasnt really made up his mind. And with all the other things that are like that..


I would never explicitly tell someone what they believe is false, (unless they needed to hear that answer). Generally, I think people need to understand or see the truth for themselves rather than relying on what someone else has told them. Unless they have been extraordinarily blessed with faith, most people I know need to seek and find truth for themselves... To me, seeking and finding Truth implies that God is somehow intervening internally, working on and opening the eyes of the heart of that seeker...

Analogy: Consider a terminal illness, for example: cancer. No one wants to hear that they have been diagnosed with such a horrible thing, yet the doctors are still compelled to tell them the truth, because they may be able to save or can at least prolong the person's life. The treatments are inevitably going to cause a lot of pain and suffering... but if it means curing (or at least prolonging life), knowing the truth is more than worth it. I believe we are in a similar situation with our sinful nature. Sin results in our spiritual death, eventually our physical death, and separation from God. If that is true, I feel compelled to tell others about Christ, no matter how much pain it causes initially. One of the hardest teachings that I have yet to get my fingers around is Christ's words about how he came to disrupt families. There are many in my family that do not believe (or haven't yet come to the knowledge of Christ). This wrenches my heart to no end, but Jesus said those things knowing that this would happen.. that some would believe, resulting in division even between family members

[Lucius]

I understand what you are saying..

Though such convo is a never ending circle that can never be finished. You follow your heart, and I follow my own..

I respect your religion, though it not a religion for me, I have found my own truth, and my heart and soul tell me that truth is not false or wrong, it is my own truth, I am no christian, nor will I ever be one. To all those who are, or those who are not religious at all all I can say is, follow your heart and soul and you shall find. No hard feelings :)

[ShadowNightWing]

Lowercase I must say Im deeply touched by your feelings. You're a great guy. I hope you find all answers to anything you're unsure of, and follow your heart.

[evangel]

Originally posted by Blulanou42

I do not understand how most westerners make the separation from other more holistic perspectives when these very ideas are contained in the very scriptures alpha omega tao te 0 1 infinity and void


Of course the ideas are there if the scriptures are taken out of their context... I've heard it said like this:
There are three rules to textual interpretation: 1. Context 2. Context
3. CONTEXT
"Alpha and Omega" (if you read the entire book of Revelation) is an obvious reference to Jesus Christ as he appears (Christ's own words, in fact) to John in a vision.

[Ev]

:( How come I always miss the longest treads and join only in the end?
Well...anyway.

I want to state that I consider myself a buddhist as it's the closest thing to my beliefs.

[Lowercase Society]

Originally posted by ShadowNightWing
Lowercase I must say Im deeply touched by your feelings. You're a great guy. I hope you find all answers to anything you're unsure of, and follow your heart.

Thanks man; out of most of the people in the forum, i know you are one of the ones that know me the most. I appreciate your understanding.

[Lucius]

Sorry guys but Im getting tired of religious convo(not your fault Lowercase,I already was lol) and this is not because people might disagree with me but because its simply a convo that is never going to end, never. (most certainly not in our life time)

So before I forfeit from this topic my permanent opinion and anybody who disagrees, fine I respect that,believe whatever you want, just be a good person:

All good hearted religions are RIGHT, there are no *false* religions, religion is but a guide in life and not an absolute life path. It does not matter how you think the universe is build, or what God is. I do not judge by religion is judge a person by his/her personality and behavior against both me,him/herself,other people the planet and everything.

A good hearted person shall receive good things, wether that is trough judgement by a God, karma or something else, they will. How to become spiritualy more evolved is a question that will not be solved in our life time as people will never completely agree on what is the *correct* thing to believe, therefore we must not judge by religion or faith.

Somebody that radiates positive energy which is possible in my eyes is good for the planet and the cosmos, and for himherself and for others.
If you try and help others, be kind and nice to others and try not to hurt anybody, try and upkeep the peace and harmony then you are good in my book REGARDLESS of whatever you believe when it comes to religion.

This is to all people that ever read this topic, my intention was never,ever to bash or disrespect anybody, as I do not think any of you is wrong.(If I did) I said it before and I say it again, this is not a war, it is not about picking a side. And follow your heart. Peace out religion topic..may one day all religions be united as one..(though I know that probally wont happen in the next..many centuries)

[ShadowNightWing]

This is confusing me I don't understand this so if you can be a good lad and explain it for me cheerio!

Originally posted by Evangel+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Evangel)</div>If you study the teachings of Christ it soon becomes apparent that he was more than wise, and more than a spiritual leader/teacher. He was who he claimed to be: The King of Heaven, The High Priest over a nation of priests, Savior and the Alpha and Omega -the First and the Last... he who was once dead and is now Alive! Hallelujah.[/b]

I was just under the impression that the Alpha and Omega was the Almighty Father himself and not Jesus.

Then you made this statement earlier

<!--QuoteBegin-Evangel
Example: A man and his wife are \"coequal\" in their humanity (their nature)yet their roles (as prescribed by the scriptures) dictate that women should be submissive to their husbands in many aspects. Does this make them less human? Obviously not. Women are equally human. Similarly, the Son, Father, and Holy Spirit are equally Divine (equal in nature).

here you're stateing that they are only equal in nature so how is Jesus Christ the Alpha and Omega?

[evangel]

Originally posted by Lucius
Sorry guys but Im getting tired of religious convo(not your fault Lowercase,I already was lol) and this is not because people might disagree with me but because its simply a convo that is never going to end, never. (most certainly not in our life time)


Tired? Already? Yeeesh! ;) just kidding, dude. I'm surprised that more have not joined in on the convo, though. Thanx for the stimulation. I plan to go through and read the whole theread again, so I can digest more of what you had to say a little better.

Shadow: Read Revelation Ch.1... the first few verses (verse 1 in particular) will clarify who the writer (John) is referring to.

As for the trinity, I think I mentioned that what I used was only an analogy to help one try and grasp the tri-unity of God, but I guess it flew out the window. All three PERSONS are referred to as God in scripture. If there is only ONE TRUE GOD (a premise we both agree on), logic demands that we reconcile scripture to mean that God is tri-une in His nature (NOT three revealed in three persons) I use the word "persons" because scripture also describes each of the three (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) as having PERSONAL ATTRIBUTES (being able to care, to counsel, to love, be grieved, lied to, etc.). Each has a specific role in regards to the redemption of mankind.

[ShadowNightWing]

Originally posted by Evangel
As for the trinity, I think I mentioned that what I used was only an analogy to help one try and grasp the tri-unity of God, but I guess it flew out the window. All three PERSONS are referred to as God in scripture. If there is only ONE TRUE GOD (a premise we both agree on), logic demands that we reconcile scripture to mean that God is tri-une in His nature (NOT three Gods, but ONE God revealed in three persons) I use the word \"persons\" because scripture also describes each of the three (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) as having PERSONAL ATTRIBUTES (being able to care, to counsel, to love, be grieved, lied to, etc.). Each has a specific role in regards to the redemption of mankind

I understood the Anagology you were trying to make. But it doesn't make sense to me. Some individual text refer to the holy spirit ("Holy Ghost") might seem to indicate personality. For example the Holy Spirit is referred to as a helper (Greek Pa-ra'kle-tos; "Comforter" or "Advocate" that teaches, bears witness, speaks, and hears.(John 14: 16-26 15:26 16:13) but other texts states that people were "Filled" with holy spirit, that some were baptized with it or "anointed" with it. (Luke 1:41; Matt. 3:11; Acts 10:38) These latter reference to holy spirit definitely do not fit a person. To understand what the Bible as a whole teaches, all these text must be considered. The first texts cited here employs a figure of speech personifying God's holy spirit, his active force, as the Bible also personifies wisdom, sin, death, water, and blood. You even mentioned yourself up there that the Holy Spirit is a person. The Holy Scriptures tell us the personal name of the Father-Jehovah. They inform us that the Son is Jesus Christ. But nowhere in the Scriptures is a personal name applied to the Holy Spirit. Why not?

[evangel]

Originally posted by ShadowNightWing

I understood the Anagology you were trying to make. But it doesn't make sense to me.

Ummmm. You "understand" but it "doesn't make sense?" okay... :?

Just because the Holy Spirit has some attributes of a person does not mean He has to have all of the attributes of a person. When I use the word "person" I do not mean that God the Holy Spirit has to have all the attributes that a human being would have (as you seemed to imply)... This would be to try and encapsulate or define God which no one can do since he is beyond our ability to understand fully. I meant only that the Holy Spirit obviously has some personal attributes. In the instances where these attributes are used in scripture (which you mentioned above), there is absolutely no indication that the people who make these references are speaking symbolically or referring to some kind of generric "force" or "power" that is personified. Personification, when you are speaking of poetic symbolism is something entirely different than what I'm talking about. Since the Holy Spirit can be referred to as "God's Spirit" it is also logical that one can also be filled with God's Spirit (there are also references to this in scripture). Again, in your definition of "person" in application to Almighty God you imply that we are trying to contain or define him. I am not saying that God is a person in all of the limitations/ definitions that a human "person" would have. Essentially, you are asking me to logically explain God's abilities (only a minute amount of which scripture reveals to us). I would say that his abilities (to fill someone or to fill the entire known universe, or both simultaneously) are never limited to human understanding. I think you also believe that, but for some reason, we are not seeing eye to eye on this doctrine. :o surprise surprise.

I'm curious. Did you happen to read Revelation 1:1 in reference to the Alpha and the Omega? I find it interesting that you thought that was a reference to God the Father, since Christ and the Father are One God. Most Christians see this as a clear reference to Christ being eternal (not created) and equal to God the Father.

[ShadowNightWing]

Originally posted by ShadowNightWing

I understood the Anagology you were trying to make. But it doesn't make sense to me.

Ummmm. You "understand" but it "doesn't make sense?" okay... :?


Yep The Anaology you were TRYING to make I understand what you were trying to make me see but to see that doesn't make sense to me because my beliefs are that the "Almighty GOD" and "Jesus" are two seperate Entities and doesn't comprise as One Godhead.

Yep and I did read Revelations And guess what? Its not talking about Jesus its Talking about The ALMIGHTY FATHER. Want me to prove it? I have no problem showing the facts. If you want to see the truth.

[nerve]

Originally posted by Lucius
Sorry guys but Im getting tired of religious convo(not your fault Lowercase,I already was lol) and this is not because people might disagree with me but because its simply a convo that is never going to end, never. (most certainly not in our life time)



well I don't see any point in ending this discussion just because the topic will never end, you can learn things by discussing it. I've learned alot.

[nerve]

Originally posted by ShadowNightWing+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ShadowNightWing)</div><!--QuoteBegin-ShadowNightWing

I understood the Anagology you were trying to make. But it doesn't make sense to me.

Ummmm. You \"understand\" but it \"doesn't make sense?\" okay... :?


Yep The Anaology you were TRYING to make I understand what you were trying to make me see but to see that doesn't make sense to me because my beliefs are that the \"Almighty GOD\" and \"Jesus\" are two seperate Entities and doesn't comprise as One Godhead.

Yep and I did read Revelations And guess what? Its not talking about Jesus its Talking about The ALMIGHTY FATHER. Want me to prove it? I have no problem showing the facts. If you want to see the truth.[/b]

you are having an arguement with yourself? ..that's hilarious.

[ShadowNightWing]

Originally posted by Paperdoll EP+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Paperdoll EP)</div>Originally posted by ShadowNightWing@
<!--QuoteBegin-ShadowNightWing

I understood the Anagology you were trying to make. But it doesn't make sense to me.

Ummmm. You \"understand\" but it \"doesn't make sense?\" okay... :?


Yep The Anaology you were TRYING to make I understand what you were trying to make me see but to see that doesn't make sense to me because my beliefs are that the \"Almighty GOD\" and \"Jesus\" are two seperate Entities and doesn't comprise as One Godhead.

Yep and I did read Revelations And guess what? Its not talking about Jesus its Talking about The ALMIGHTY FATHER. Want me to prove it? I have no problem showing the facts. If you want to see the truth.

you are having an arguement with yourself? ..that's hilarious.[/b]


Why because I decided not to quote Evangels name? Thats because the individual who its directed towards understand that it belongs to them. Its not for you, so of course you see it differently. Whats really Hilarious is that you actually find that funny. I don't see a start-up or a Punch-line. If you find religion funny then you need to check yourself. Quick!

[whiterabbit]

first time posting, wanted to jump in on this religion issue. first of all, i consider myself an agnostic, rejected religion as soon as i starting really thinking about it. i just wanted to ask all of you who have so much faith in the words of the bible, doesn't it frighten you that it has been translated at all, first of all from one language to another...inevitably losing some meaning in translation, and second of all(forgive my assumptions, i am not an authority on the bible) isn't it true that the king james version is the most widely used? the king james version...i love that. which version, that is someone else's interpretation and therefore has their superimposed ideas in it, do you want to read today?
on heaven and hell: heaven seems like a pretty boring place to me. and hell doesn't sound so fun either. it seems to me that there could quite possibly be an after life,i don't have any proof to make me think that one does not exist. lately i've been thinking that there is one, i have no real valid reason for believing it, but when i thinkof the expanse of the universe, or questions like when was the eginning of time?i feel secure in my thoughts that there is something higher than life on this earth. but it also makes sense to me that like this world, the afterlife will be a very subjective experience, it will be what you make of it. if belonging to a religion in this life makes you content then all the more power to you. if you want to do good deeds and love your fellow man, and you think that abiding by the rules of a religion will make you a better person,and more comfortable,happy if you want to say; then it will, in this life and the next. but the only way you will condemn yourself to what i consider a hell is if you regret what you did in your life. i honestly think that if hitler believed what he was doing was right, he will not suffer in the afterlife. i know i'll get some hate mail for saying that, but my point is...live your life to the fullest, and how you want to live it, and you'll make the most of your existence.
for you who do believe in the bible, why did god create dinosaurs?
something else to contemplate, and another reason why i am cautious of religion and strong beliefs...if those who do not sin go to heaven, and babies have obviously not sinned yet, why am i not going around and killing as many babies as i can, sending them to heaven. i'll go to hell myself, but i could know that i was sending as many as 20-30 babies straight to heaven before i was caught. or would i go to hell? would i be a martyr in saving those babies from the chance to sin?
i love babies by the way.
from a tool album: "no true ritual magician has ever sacrificed life, drank goat's blood, or taken part in any other stupid urban legend ritual. this sort of behavior is left to the psychotic, dogmatic, fundamentalist believers you see on t.v. everyday letting off bombs and killing people in the name of God. beliefs are dangerous. beliefs allow the mind to stop functioning. a non-functioning mind is clinically dead. believe in nothing.

[evangel]

doesn't it frighten you that it has been translated at all, first of all from one language to another...[/b]

Frightening? Not at all. Intriguing? Absolutely. That's why I am compelled to study the original languages. The Bible has been translated by several who are experts - from EVERY field, including the agnostic/atheistic translators. Also... the idea that the original languages are somehow doctored by \"the church\" or believers for the sake of church elitism or some other rubbish is a MYTH (I know you didn't make such an assumption, Rabbit, but from my experience, it seems many people blindly believe nonsense like that because they have chips on their shoulders...)

inevitably losing some meaning in translation,...[/b]

I agree, but the truth is evident in any language.

on heaven and hell: heaven seems like a pretty boring place to me. and hell doesn't sound so fun either.[/b]

Only to those whose minds/imaginations are limited... Your mind, like all of ours' will still be blown.

if you want to do good deeds and love your fellow man, and you think that abiding by the rules of a religion will make you a better person,and more comfortable,happy if you want to say;[/b]

Religion does nothing for me. A relationship with God does.

for you who do believe in the bible, why did god create dinosaurs?[/b]

Why not?

...something else to contemplate,

i love babies by the way.[/b]

Me too. I believe no one is innocent....

beliefs allow the mind to stop functioning. a non-functioning mind is clinically dead. believe in nothing.[/b]

Without belief, YOU would not function. You use it every day.

[Lynx]

Has anyone seen jamesarthur.net? its about how almost all religions are based around the magic mushroom Amanita Muscaria, or use it in some way. Its really interesting and he gives quite a persuasive argument although I dont agree with everything it is very convincing - well worth a read. His book 'Mushrooms and Mankind' is on the site for free although not the complete version.

[CT]

So, this has gone from a discussion about religion in general to a discussion about who's the most right at interpreting stuff in the bible?
Again its all based on opinions. Futile attempts to make someone else agree with you over something as personal as religion is doomed to end up somewhat ugly.

Do as you please but perhaps it would be better to do it trough PM's or something because its going off-topic.

[ShadowNightWing]

Originally posted by CT
So, this has gone from a discussion about religion in general to a discussion about who's the most right at interpreting stuff in the bible?
Again its all based on opinions. Futile attempts to make someone else agree with you over something as personal as religion is doomed to end up somewhat ugly.

Do as you please but perhaps it would be better to do it trough PM's or something because its going off-topic.

Thats understandable CT but Im sure that you would agree that religion is not just limited toward one main focuse of discussion. How can you capture the true insight of ones belief if you limit the opportunity to capture the big picture and understand WHY? And I don't see it really going off topic. Religious discussions are based enterily on the Bible.

[CT]

Yeah well it has gone on for a few pages already and nothing has happened, thats what I meant. You and Evangel seem to enjoy discussing it, so I suggested perhaps the PM system would be better for that, or another thread, because not everybody can quote the bible and is interested in the opinions of the correct interpretation of it, thats what I meant.

[edit] actually you can hijack this thread since its not goin to be used for anything else anyway.

[ShadowNightWing]

Originally posted by CT
Yeah well it has gone on for a few pages already and nothing has happened, thats what I meant. You and Evangel seem to enjoy discussing it, so I suggested perhaps the PM system would be better for that, or another thread, because not everybody can quote the bible and is interested in the opinions of the correct interpretation of it, thats what I meant.

[edit] actually you can hijack this thread since its not goin to be used for anything else anyway.

:fro:

yep big Afro's, Plasma screen HDTV's Cadallics with the Bumping sound system, sitting on 24 inch spinning wheels with the ultra chrome finish. "He steps out of the Pink Cadillac with his fish bowel platform shoes on and goes over to the call girl on the corner and smacks the crap out of her"!

[CT]

word :thumbup:

[evangel]

Shadow:

I'm not sure how the NWT reads, but the following is an obvious reference to Jesus as the ALpha and the Omega:

Rev. 1

"1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw--that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.
4John,
To the seven churches in the province of Asia:
Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits[1] 5 before his throne, and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
6To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father--to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
7Look, he is coming with the clouds,
and every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him;
and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.
8"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."