We Can’t Believe These People

[Leo Volont]

We Can’t Believe These People

The most important consideration when evaluating Subjective Phenomena is the Intellectual Integrity and Honesty of those giving their accounts. When once we find a Culture that glorifies in Sensationalism that is divorced from all appreciation for the Truth, then we have entered a Sci-Fi Page, a Fantasy Page, but definitely NOT a page where we can hope to gain any Real Insights or discover what we can trust are any Real Possibilities.

The Moderation on this page has repeatedly urged me to endorse the writings of Carlos Casteneda, who they full well know has been discredited for repeatedly publishing false reports while in the guise of upholding his credentials as a Research Anthropologist – a Scientist, who was turning in flagrantly false data. Yet it seems to be the Official Policy of this Page to stand behind that man’s writings? Why? Apparently it is thought that the Sensational and Theatrical nature of his fictions, which he published claiming it to be true, would be good for boosting the general Enthusiasm for Lucid Dreaming. It seems the Culture of this Page is intended toward pumping up Expectations, while it may only be of secondary concern whether any of these expectation can be actualized. And then, considering the Culture of Lies that is being encouraged here, by the Moderation, when we do here fabulous accounts of unbelievable feats accomplished while in Lucid Dreaming, we can only wonder whether it is not just more hype of fantasy, put forward by those who feel that if it is Okay for the Hero of our Moderators to falsify and exaggerate for the sake of a Good Story, then why should they refrain from such practices themselves. Indeed, how many liars here have not been applauded for their lies. The Bigger the Better. “I Lucid Dream every five minutes, control the universe, and all my enemies bow before me”… seems to be the gist of reports given by the those who do not receive any warnings from the Moderation. You see, patently false hype is what flies here. It’s telling the Truth that will get you in trouble.

But I did not give in to such pressures, and so first my posts were ‘back-paged’ to the unread sections (perhaps you’ve seen them by mistake when you wanted to click on something else), and then I was warned that I would be banned for bucking the ‘Party Line’.

I am a Religious Person and so I am acquainted with the concept of Religious Doctrine – that orthodoxy must be preserved and so adherents to what purports to be the ‘True’ Religion must be humble and accept doctrines, supposing that if they have a quarrel with any facet of the Doctrine, that it must only be because, in their human frailty, they must somehow have been mistaken, and that those who know better, and affirm these Doctrines, must be right. I never liked that idea very much. The idea of Doctrine seems to be a way for the Powerful Elites to sidestep the weaknesses in their Arguments. But at least there is a certain sense that everybody means well, that although they are at a loss to completely explain why, they do hope that they can believe that what they say is True. But, this is how corrupt This Page has become, that they don’t even pretend that it is True. They advocate a Lie and then they first shuffle off my Writings and then threaten to Ban me, for objecting to their Campaign of Lies.

I think we should require that all Posters should take an Oath for Intellectual Honesty. Yes, we may abbreviate a complex dream, or simplify a notion here and there, but we must hold it unacceptable to sensationalize, to exaggerate, and to advocate what we know to be false. And we need to throw out these Moderators whom we now know for certain we cannot trust.


Oh, and the Warning I was given was rather peculiar. It said that the Rules would not be applied againt "friends" but only against people with whom they have a problem. Selective Justice, or I should say, Targeted Retribution. It does not seem like very fair and equitable treatment, but I could hardly expect more from these moderators, given their general direction of behavior and what they've shown of the aptitudes.

[Crashwithuhk]

If someone is willing to exaggerate and lie when dicussing their dreams whats to stop them from crossing their fingers behind their backs when taking an oath, or in the forums case blindly click "I Agree" or simply copy & paste the oath without a second thought?

[Griffon]

Yea I have to agree with you there for once. There are too many people that come to the boards without the right intentions. There is alot of dishonesty going on and I find the only way to filter is just look for the most complete responses. If someone is going to make a post about their experience they should include every detail they possibly can, anyone who makes up lies to the finest detail seriously has some issues. I hate just as much as you do seeing posts, "I can lucid dream for 5 hours straight", but I just deam them a liar straight away after going through some of their older posts and seeing the quality of what they are saying is just complete rubish. What I think might work is not a declaration, becasue lets be serious here if they're going to lie about their experience, they're not going to loose any sleep over night clicking an "I agree" button. Don't know how it would really work but maybe a rating system that mods would use to rate the quality of the member, or a members only area, dunno just a few ideas, could use this thread to come up with some different methods.

[logik]

I have to admit, lying here on dreamviews is pretty pathetic in my view. In what do you recieve from this? I came on here to be with other individuals that share some of the views that i do and also meet other people who don't. I have not been here that long but to find that this is how this place really is? The last guy mentioned some kind of rating system? I mean thats not a bad idea but c'mon... We have to do something like this because of certain people lying? This is just ludacris...

[Nirvana Starseed]

I dont think a rating system for the 'quality' of certain members is a good idea.
This would lead people into more glamour illusion. The illusion is already strong enough without adding to it.

Honesty is basic to me. The problem is not the lack of ethical codes agreements or instructions. Just the spiritual ignorance in general that leads to these sort of problems.

Leo wrote....
we need to throw out these Moderators whom we now know for certain we cannot trust. [/b]

I do not know about anyone else but I certainly do not know this for certain. I am skeptical that all the moderators cannot be trusted and should be thrown out. Currently I have alot more respect for them, then to believe something like this. I admit I do not know them very well yet. The least is to respect the positions and realize it requires more effort and time and dedication.

I would encourage the best possible system for choosing the moderators to make sure we have people in there that have excellent judgment, and that suit the position best, and also that members at DV are happy with collectivily and who they trust.

[spoon]

Re: leo's post:

I honestly cannot see the problem with people endorsing Casteneda's writings. Sure he made some (a lot) of things up, but he got things right too. Many lucid dreamers from back in the day (probably some here) benefited from his advice - for example his method of knowing you are dreaming by looking at your hands. Works for me, probably worked for people back then too. Noone is exposed to that idea through Casteneda anymore, but noone back when he was writing had access to forums like this. You may not agree with how he chose to make money, but you can't deny he has been of some help to some people.

You bring up the problem of a "culture of lies" here at dreamviews, suggesting it is such a problem we should have to take an honesty oath. How you took the leap from Casteneda to this is beyond me, but anyway. You say we should no sensationalisation, no exaggeration. Yet both are usually subjectively viewed. You see your post as an expose, others might see it as sensationalism. Certainly that leap from Casteneda --> "culture of lies" is an exaggeration.

This brings up the problem of moderation - who will objectively rate these subjective posts and find some wanting? What will the criteria be? "I can lucid dream for 5 hours straight!" is not necessarily a false post, perhaps the poster is uninformed about the objective/subjective time difference while dreaming. Disciplening them for it would create a hostile environment of this forum.

But of course some people lie. As you said, "I can lucid dream every 5 minutes" is a plain lie. Anyone who stays here for more than 20 minutes should be able to tell that. Why is it a problem if these people delude themselves? Can you not just post - "no you cant, [reason]". Again, disciplening people for these lies brings up some problems. Some claims, when they are originally made, seem so far out they are a lie - "I can control my dreams!" anyone? Stopping sensationalist claims is stopping learning.

Hopefully people are able to discern between truth and lies, and when they cant hopefully people can engage in sensible, mature discourse. Take this thread for example. On a heavily moderated forum this would have been up for 2 minutes before deletion. Now we can have a discussion and hopefully work out your problems. And before you say something like:

...my posts were ‘back-paged’ to the unread sections (perhaps you’ve seen them by mistake when you wanted to click on something else), and then I was warned that I would be banned for bucking the ‘Party Line’. [/b]

One wonders if you have ever been to a moderated forum before. You see these nice headings for each section? One of the jobs of the moderators is to try put discussions in their correct section. As interesting as accusations of ethics and evil are, they belong in extendede discussion or philosophy. Your thread had not fit into general dreaming since page 1.

And for the record: branding people you don't agree with evil doesn't make a good discussion

-spoon

[Placebo]

Wow. Long one ... :)

Originally posted by Leo Volont+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Leo Volont)</div>
The most important consideration when evaluating Subjective Phenomena is the Intellectual Integrity and Honesty of those giving their accounts. *When once we find a Culture that glorifies in Sensationalism that is divorced from all appreciation for the Truth, then we have entered a Sci-Fi Page, a Fantasy Page, but definitely NOT a page where we can hope to gain any Real Insights or discover what we can trust are any Real Possibilities.[/b]
Agreed. Well said as well :)

Originally posted by Extract from the forum rules@

All opinions, techniques, and methods posted at this forum are the sole responsibility of the author of said posts Dreamviews makes no effort to verify any of these postings for correctness, efficacy, or safety. Please use your own judgment when following any suggestions that are posted here. *


The moderators are not here to call people liars or saints.

<!--QuoteBegin-spoon
Hopefully people are able to discern between truth and lies, and when they cant hopefully people can engage in sensible, mature discourse. Take this thread for example. On a heavily moderated forum this would have been up for 2 minutes before deletion. Now we can have a discussion and hopefully work out your problems.
[...]And for the record: branding people you don't agree with evil doesn't make a good discussion
Agreed :D

[Merck]

Leo get over your disagreement with the staff member you know you are discussing. Just because that person feels differently than you doesn't mean you can sit there and trash talk him. Seriously, get over it and try to treat people with respect whether they feel the same way as you do or not. And as we can see from your posts its pretty obvious that you dislike capitalism because you express such hatred for Carlos Casteneda for making money off of a book. I mean come on, you compared him to Nazis in a previous thread! Also to say that it is the official policy of this page, to stand behind the false teachings of this man is a blatant lie and you know it. For a man as knowledgeable as you I find it even more ridiculous that you would behave in this way. Face it Leo, you just tossed most if not all your credibility out the window. Please take your hatred elsewhere.

For other members reading this, you can find the reasons for Leo starting this thread here: http://www.dreamviews.com/forum/viewtopic....der=asc&start=0 (http://www.dreamviews.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16529&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)

The thread in which I linked tells a lot about what is going on here so before anyone makes any assumptions I implore you all to read over it.

[OpheliaBlue]

Originally posted by Leo Volont
Oh, and the Warning I was given was rather peculiar. It said that the Rules would not be applied againt \"friends\" but only against people with whom they have a problem.
You little liar. The rules state:
Originally posted by DV Rules
Obviously we'll use discretion in regards to policing this because joking around between friends is certainly permitted. If you have a legitimate complaint about another user, please contact a moderator or administrator.
I have yet to find anything you've said to be \"joking around with friends\" AND I have yet to see you take these matters up with the staff via PMs only, as your flaming seems to be quite prominant in view of the public. :shakehead2:

Originally posted by Leo Volont
Selective Justice...etc
I just have to laugh when people bring up politics in forums as if we're running a democracy here. Don't like the way things are run? Tough turkey tits, leave or start your own forum. Otherwise learn to let the things you don't like just roll off your back. Then you'll have more fun here. :)

ALL that being said....you're clearly a smart and well educated dude. Let's call a truce and start over (I know, probably not possible after we've all flamed you, but a girl can dream can't she?).

http://www.pushby.com/ian/archives/hug.jpg
I laugh at my own stupidity everyday. It's what keeps me rollin.

[Daeraug]

Nice use of the automatic complaint generators, very verbose indeed.

Anyway, this is what I think. I think Leo has some issues with authority. This site is run by Icedawg with the help from his moderators. As far as things go, if you don't like they have to say, then leave. Nothing much you can do about it. It is their forum. Honestly, I think things are run quite well. Bitching and complaining about it seems silly. You’re not going to change it. If you can't cope with it, then go somewhere else or start your own.

There is no real fairness in it, because fairness is kind of a myth. But I think the Mods try to do their best in being fair. When you are being unreasonable and uncooperative, which you are, then they have to go by what they believe is right. You make things harder on yourself and on everyone else.

You don't like it, then leave with your dignity intact, while you still can.

[Placebo]

Originally posted by Daeraug
Bitching and complaining about it seems silly. You’re not going to change it.
Well, unlike the rest of your post, that's not quite true.
If Leo had some constructive criticism for us, then we may be able to change it for the better (if we can all agree that it really is better)

[Barbizzle]

What the hell got into leo? Oh wlel its sad when you think someone if a good perosn and you realize they are angry weirdos....

[Cryptic Cane]

You seem to get into a lot of arguements in forums. I googled the name "Leo Volont" because it sounded familiar, and sure enough, you were banned from the IIDB discussion forum for "personal abusive attacks on members". (I sometimes visit that site)

But netherless, there is still truth behind your posts. I find them refreshing from the usual hype of the forum, its good to have a different perspective - even though they are at times slightly pessimistic.

[Seeker]

Originally posted by Cryptic Cane
its good to have a different perspective - even though they are at times slightly pessimistic.

I agree with you completely Cryptic Cane. We encourage differing perspectives here at Dreamviews, in fact I love to read everyones take on things.

No person has ever been called down on this website for presenting their views, however....and there is a big difference here.....

Rude and abusive behavior toward members of this community are a violation of the forum rules and will not be tolerated.

Everyone, have a nice night and Happy Dreaming! :sunflower:

[icedawg]

Originally posted by Barbizzle+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Barbizzle)</div>What the hell got into leo? Oh wlel its sad when you think someone if a good perosn and you realize they are angry weirdos....[/b]

He's upset because he's been reprimanded for discussing topics extraneous to this site's bounds, but others who are probably exaggerating their stories in regards to lucid dreaming continue unchecked.

Leo, enough with the superfluous rhetoric already; and I thought _I_ was pretentious. Unfortunately, we cannot attempt to have a regulatory system in place to police those who stretch the truth: there's a dangerous slippery slope that the aforementioned would present since we cannot pretend to be able to accurately determine who speaks the truth and who does not. Fabricators exist all around us, and it is up to us as individuals to decide for ourselves what is indeed true and what is not. I have put a great deal of effort into writing the main pages of this site which insist an adherence to the world around us and a practical way of viewing lucid dreaming; surely you cannot dispute that. Otherwise, we strive to respect free speech as much as possible here (although we aim to place topics in the forums where they belong).

Your perception of the moderating here leaves me at somewhat of a loss; quite honestly I haven't a clue what you're talking about. It seems not only are you saying moderators are neglecting to prevent exaggeration by users, but actually endorsing it and perpetuating it. That's not something I care to see take place here, so if you can be specific I can look into it.

I find your position on this matter rather ironic, since it was you who seemed to advocate either a complete void of moderation, or less moderation than currently exists. Let's review a quote or two from you, shall we?

Originally posted by Leo Volont+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Leo Volont)</div>many Pages empty out when the Moderators come on too strongly[/b]

Uh-huh, and what do you think would happen if moderators mistakenly accused people of fibbing? Do you think they would be encouraged to post more, or less? How about potential outside users reading these threads including accusations from moderators?

<!--QuoteBegin-Leo Volont@
Anyway, I have never been to a page yet where the Best Moderation was still anywhere as good as No Moderation At All.

Oh my, but what about all the exaggerating and lying? With no moderation, just who would put a stop to it? Where once you advocated less moderating, now you are clearly campaigning for more. Which is it, Leo?

The ultimate fact of the matter is that we have many kids on this site who exaggerate, and that's completely natural. We could try raising the minimal age allowed--and I already have raised it to 13--but then users would just claim to be that age anyway (I know for a fact we have/had 12 year olds running around). If a particular user causes repeated problems, such as by propagating falsehoods, then we do attempt to admonish the user and correct the problem, provided the problem is brought to our attention in the first place. I would suggest, if you like, that you attempt to give us a hand by contacting us and suggesting just who needs to be spoken to because I personally rarely have time to do much reading on the forum anymore.

in closing,

<!--QuoteBegin-Leo Volont
It said that the Rules would not be applied againt \"friends\" but only against people with whom they have a problem.

Unfortunately I did not read the warning you received, but I would suggest that perhaps that meant we take into consideration when two friends are talking to EACH OTHER (i.e. joking around with someone who knows it's a joke), not that we condone special treatment for favoured users. The fact is, you already see us in a bad light, and no matter what we do, you are likely going to continue to interpret our moves in a similar fashion, as your interpretation to your warning suggests. Perhaps you should consider doing yourself a favour and find a forum more suited to your black & white perspective of the world. Clearly we are a constant disappointment to you.

[ShadowNightWing]

As the infamous words of Barbizzle. And I quote!


Originally posted by Barbizzle
What the hell got into leo?.


Yeah My question exactly!
Or better yet WTF! has gotten into Leo!

[nightowl]

what. ever. If you do not like it here, then leave.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by spoon
Re: leo's post:

I honestly cannot see the problem with people endorsing Casteneda's writings. Sure he made some (a lot) of things up, but he got things right too. -spoon

It is an Ethical Problem.

This was a Research Anthropologist who told his University he was out in the field and continued to draw pay while he hid away at home to write fiction which he then presented to a Popular Publishing House as genuine anthropological field research.

Some of us on this page are College Educated. Certainly those with no Higher Education have not the sense of the integrity which we would expect from our University Professors. But those of us who are Educated feel a betrayal when one of our own has betrayed the Truth so thouroughly. Intellectual Honesty cannot be as cavalier as Professional Wrestling.

Yes, the Moderation of This Page, used your same Argument, that some of these writing seemed to conform to what we know to be True. But this is to sugar-coat a turd. where do we know where to draw the line. Is one sentence out of ten true, or two our of ten. One simply does not know. the only thing we can count upon is our own Experience. So if we are reduced to our own Experience, what do we need his books for anyway. Again, we find that the UnEducated like the books as entertainment -- Carlos presents himself as a clown, and he presents Don Juan as something of a clever witty Hero. If only there were pictures, I'm sure the series of books would have been as popular as Harry Potter. But there is nothing Intellectual in those books, anything True that is, that can't be found in honest scholarly works.

Then we must consider how practical and useful Honesty is. If we know that we can rely upon the Truth of what a person says, then we know that what he purports to have happened is POSSIBLE FOR ANYBODY. As soon as that person seems to espouse Lies or Liars, what happens to this implicit Trust?

You see, I am possessed of a Wonderful Knowledge which I cannot associate with any Lie. Back many years ago I had a Dream in common with another person. I have written about it many time. Because two people had one dream, it shows that Dreams are an Objective Reality -- that Dreaming is Real. It shows the Reality of some basis for Extrasensory Perception. It opens the door to great Possibilities, which coud give many people new to Dreaming a great deal of Hope, BUT ONLY IF THEY COULD BELIEVE IT TRUE. Yet the Moderation of this Page actively campaigns for the endorcement of a notorious Liar.

Credibility is our best friend, and intellectual dishonesty is our worst enemy.

so if you say you don't know what's wrong with lying, then you haven't thought about it long enough.... or you should apply to be a Moderator on This Page.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by nightowl
what. ever. If you do not like it here, then leave.

Indeed, you have a point.

I suppose this is the way it breaks down on this Page -- for every 20 people I suppose there are two who aren't morally reprehensible retards. It is not good company. So I am here for the remaining 2 our of 20 who are worth their while.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Merck
Leo get over your disagreement with the staff member you know you are discussing. .

That Staff Member badgered me an entire afternoon... He started by telling me that I presented a good 'debate' but that I should get real and come off my high horse. Is such patronizing talk not the kind of insults that Moderators are supposed to protect us from. To what Moderator do we report the Moderator. I objected and gave moral and intellectual arguments for the rejection of Lies and Fraud, but that Staff Member never responding to the content of any of my arguments or moral sensitivities... but repeated as almost a mantra that I should endorse Castenada. Without any argument to back up his demands, I could only suppose he was attempting to foist his Authority upon me.

After more refusals then I can count, he decided to have fun with me and claim that he had no moral constraints at all and that I was free to consider him as Absolute Evil, and that he was Proud to be so Evil.

Then this Staff Member back-paged my thread. What was that but retribution.

NO, I am not the problem here. If somebody needs to mend any bridges, it is that Staff Member. Honestly, after so many violations of Trust and Good Ethical Sense, I cannot believe people are not screaming for his Resignation.

[Seeker]

Oh Leo, I did all that?

I responded three maybe four times in that posting, suggesting that you could perhaps be more open minded to the possibility that there was some valuable information in Carlos writings. You then got on your moral high horse and now I am considered evil incarnate. I invite everyone to look at the topic which can be found in Extended Discussion and draw their own conclusions.

Another moderator did his job, very well I may add, by moving the topic to Extended Discussion, which was where it belonged in the first place.

We do our best to classify posts by topic on this forum to make it easier for members to find topics in which they are interested.

Originally posted by Leo Volont
Honestly, after so many violations of Trust and Good Ethical Sense, I cannot believe people are not screaming for his Resignation.

Please feel free to contact Icedawg if you feel I should be removed from my position. He is afterall owner of this site and I work for him. If he feels I am remiss in my duties or am abusing my powers, I will gladly resign.

[OpheliaBlue]

Originally posted by Leo Volont
Honestly, after so many violations of Trust and Good Ethical Sense, I cannot believe people are not screaming for his Resignation.
Holy freakin hell dude.

You know, did it ever occur to you, that you bring out the worst in people? I bet from your point of vew, pretty much all of us should resign.

The problem is NEVER you, is it Monsieur Volont? :shakehead2:

[Merck]

Leo, you strike me as being similar to an American college professor in that you are very pompous and are completely arrogant in that your way is THE way and there is nothing else. I'm surprised that you would even waste your infinitly valuable time talking with people who are uneducated unlike yourself.

[Placebo]

I invite anybody to review Leo Volont's record by googling his name. His reputation precedes him. He's led a self proclaimed rebellion on other forums, and seems to be doing the same again.

If it's a war between the evil Seeker and the messiah Leo, I'll pick Seeker.
As far as I'm concerned, Leo is reading the situation the way he would like to read it - to further his 'holy' cause.

I also invite everyone to read the thread the Leo is referring to, and make up your own opinion.
Here's the link: The Disengaged Dream Self (http://www.dreamviews.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16529&highlight=)

[OpheliaBlue]

I loooooooooooooooooooove the Seeker...

And if looooooooooooooooving the Seeker is wrooooooooooooooong

Then I don't wanna be right!

/Arsenio

[space-cadet]

i don't lie can't see the point..

[nesgirl119]

Originally posted by Seeker

Please feel free to contact Icedawg if you feel I should be removed from my position. He is afterall owner of this site and I work for him. If he feels I am remiss in my duties or am abusing my powers, I will gladly resign.

No!! You can't let Leo treat you like that....please stay an Admin, b/c you rock...
BTW, Icedawg isn't just about to listen to Leo, b/c he is alot smarter than that!(I know, b/c he helped revive dreamin of gamin)..
You deserve that position, b/c you helped me debug my email, my website, & helped restore my account, please believe me!!http://img117.echo.cx/img117/4045/26crying8bg.gif (http://www.imageshack.us)...And believe me, I will let Icedawg know about this (after all, he did unofficially adopt me).

[Barbizzle]

Ok, After reading that post again I still cannot see anywhere where seeker was abusive or bagering. I've lost what ever respect I once had for this "Leo" I used to think he used to know so much and worte long post beacse of he knowledge, but it appears he is a closed minded rambeling bafoon. Whats with you Leo? Are you some sort of freak who has to be right all the time? I dont know. Seeker has been more than nice to you and your a fool for acting the way you are.

[InTheMoment]

Space Cadet wrote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTEi don't lie can't see the point..[/b][/b][/quote]
You just did.

Jay Dawg wrote:<div class='quotetop'>QUOTElets all beat up leo.[/b][/b][/quote]
I'm down.

[Feeble Wizard]

Leo, you are taking things much too seriously. A lot of people like to read your threads when you are not fighting, so don't get yourself banned :blue:. If it makes you feel better, a lot of times I just click on the name of a person I want to read from and just skim through the posts they made, so it doesn't always matter which forum something is in. I found this thread by looking through your posts, leo :)!

:laughhard: However, with that said... Does anyone else think this thread should be "back-paged" to the Feedback Forum :-P? (If not Senseless Banter :P?)

[icedawg]

Originally posted by Leo Volont+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Leo Volont)</div>You see, I am possessed of a Wonderful Knowledge which I cannot associate with any Lie. Back many years ago I had a Dream in common with another person. I have written about it many time. Because two people had one dream, it shows that Dreams are an Objective Reality -- that Dreaming is Real. It shows the Reality of some basis for Extrasensory Perception. It opens the door to great Possibilities, which coud give many people new to Dreaming a great deal of Hope, BUT ONLY IF THEY COULD BELIEVE IT TRUE. Yet the Moderation of this Page actively campaigns for the endorcement of a notorious Liar.[/b]

Leo, Leo, Leo. What are we to do with you? If you really feel there is a problem here in regards to honesty, how about helping us out by providing specific examples? Just fire off a PM to one of us--preferably a brief one that arrives immediately at the pertinent information--detailing users who are clearly here to disseminate lies and falsehoods only. Please, Leo, help us help you. If you are unwilling to do that, then please cease and desist your tenuous and unwarranted attacks on my staff members. They're not getting paid to do what they're doing, but simply volunteer their time to help ensure this place doesn't erode and finally collapse into chaos, dismissed forever as a distant memory from those who used to inhabit it and breathe renewed life into it every day. You may not like some of them, but just because you disagree on some fundamental ideologies with them that hardly means they are not good at the various tasks involved in getting the job done.

There's a good quote here, and I'd like to bring it up:

<!--QuoteBegin-OpheliaBlue
You know, did it ever occur to you, that you bring out the worst in people?

I hadn't thought of articulating it like that before, but you know, I think Ophelia's done a fantastic job of summing up our little escalating plight here. You really do seem to have a special way with people. I haven't actually partaken in 'Googling' your name, but I've heard you've left a dark trail behind you, trampling upon the probably good-natured people who create and inhabit these various online communities, and denouncing everything they believe in and stand for along the way, while proclaiming your own undeniable and interminable superiority. Exactly how many forums have you managed to be forcefully driven from? Who's next after us? It seems to me you have some serious social issues: can't really find a way to fit in? You obviously want to, somehow, at some level, otherwise you wouldn't have joined at all. At the same time, though, there's that other part of you that apparently feels nothing but contempt for people and humanity in general, so you're unfortunately always experiencing an inner conflict. I don't know what happened to you as a child, Leo, but whatever it is, please stop taking it out on my forum members.

[nesgirl119]

Originally posted by icedawg


I hadn't thought of articulating it like that before, but you know, I think Ophelia's done a fantastic job of summing up our little escalating plight here. You really do seem to have a special way with people. I haven't actually partaken in 'Googling' your name, but I've heard you've left a dark trail behind you, trampling upon the probably good-natured people who create and inhabit these various online communities, and denouncing everything they believe in and stand for along the way, while proclaiming your own undeniable and interminable superiority. Exactly how many forums have you managed to be forcefully driven from? Who's next after us? It seems to me you have some serious social issues: can't really find a way to fit in? You obviously want to, somehow, at some level, otherwise you wouldn't have joined at all. At the same time, though, there's that other part of you that apparently feels nothing but contempt for people and humanity in general, so you're unfortunately always experiencing an inner conflict. I don't know what happened to you as a child, Leo, but whatever it is, please stop taking it out on my forum members.

Well said Icedawg! Please listen to Icedawg, Leo! If he is able to take care of this website, & be a part of mine, then he is incredibly wise!

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by icedawg


I hadn't thought of articulating it like that before, but you know, I think Ophelia's done a fantastic job of summing up our little escalating plight here. You really do seem to have a special way with people. I haven't actually partaken in 'Googling' your name, but I've heard you've left a dark trail behind you, trampling upon the probably good-natured people who create and inhabit these various online communities, and denouncing everything they believe in and stand for along the way, while proclaiming your own undeniable and interminable superiority. Exactly how many forums have you managed to be forcefully driven from? Who's next after us? It seems to me you have some serious social issues: can't really find a way to fit in? You obviously want to, somehow, at some level, otherwise you wouldn't have joined at all. At the same time, though, there's that other part of you that apparently feels nothing but contempt for people and humanity in general, so you're unfortunately always experiencing an inner conflict. I don't know what happened to you as a child, Leo, but whatever it is, please stop taking it out on my forum members.

Perhaps the logical possibility should occur to you that everyone has been wrong and I have been consistently right (do you know the webpages I have argued with?). You see, the problem is that all of these Pages have roughly the same Dictatorial Constitutions. There is no Freedom of Speech. Moderators typically look upon themselves as the Leaders and the Protectors of the Party Line, whatever that is, and yes, I seldom agree. Then there are the Rules. I am very outspoken. Who write more thoughtful essays than I do? And yet it doesn't take much to provoke some people of half my intelligence into confronting me and then being offended by my rejecting their silly reasonings. All they need to is complain once to Moderators who already want me gone, and I am gone. You see, that is how the System Works.

Now, if there was freedom of speech then I would still be on my first Web Page where I argued Religion against Atheists. Now were the Atheists supposed to enjoy me? Then I went to Protestant Pages where I argued for the Higher Religions of the World. Were they supposed to enjoy me? You see, I have not made it a practice to go to Pages where I agree with everything... what then would I have to teach?

Anyway, Icedawg, and whoever else shares your reasoning -- you are either stupid for having dismissed the Logic that I was always right and have been a consistent victim, or you are intellectually dishonest for suppressing that Truth in order to win your hateful case. You know, if honesty were the criteria instead of feelgood fuzzy social getalong skills, then it would be you who would be banned.

[Leo Volont]

Oh, now the attack is focussing on my being different.

You know, I have never pretended to be the same. And I do quite think I have come with a Divine Mission. Therefore, how could it possibly worry me that these Worldly and Corrupt Organizations do not welcome me with open arms?

Have you heard of the Curse of Cassandra. Whatever she said would be True, but nobody would ever believe her. Perhaps I have a similar curse, where everything I say would be true, but the Atheists, Bigots, and now Idiots would hate me for it.

[Cryptic Cane]

I havent really been around here long, but it would seem that you are misinterpreting people's good intent of having a friendly debate, thinking that they are making a malicious attack on your point of view and intellect.

I dont understand it, I read the topic which supposedly set you off, the one where you guys argued about castaneda's writing. I failed to locate anything in the whole topic that was offensive in anyway, by you or anyone else. I even thought that you held your ground well in the debate, like you usually do. But then you go making a post like this one.

You talk about dishonesty, and I agree with you completely. I have seen the "dishonesty" you are speaking out against. Personally I think that if someones gullible enough to fall for it, let them. Anyway, there is no way to stop this lying unless the moderators were to completely suppress "freedom of speech", which you hold in such high esteem.

Leo, you complain about the mods trying to silence you, but you show us no examples other than them moving your posts in the right forums. Without hard evidence, I dont think anyones going to believe you.

[Cryptic Cane]

Originally posted by Leo Volont
Oh, now the attack is focussing on my being different.

You know, I have never pretended to be the same. And I do quite think I have come with a Divine Mission. Therefore, how could it possibly worry me that these Worldly and Corrupt Organizations do not welcome me with open arms?

Have you heard of the Curse of Cassandra. Whatever she said would be True, but nobody would ever believe her. Perhaps I have a similar curse, where everything I say would be true, but the Atheists, Bigots, and now Idiots would hate me for it.

How am I going to know if your always right, not one of those people that "We cant believe"? You dont offer me anything other than your opinion. Until now, I thought you were correct, at least most of the time. But your definatly not right here.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Cryptic Cane


How am I going to know if your always right, not one of those people that \"We cant believe\"? You dont offer me anything other than your opinion. Until now, I thought you were correct, at least most of the time. But your definatly not right here.

It depends upon your native intelligence and your powers of discernment. If you rank highly in these things, then it is likely you will understand my point of view. if you can never understand a thing I say, then you will suppose I am some crackpot and go after me for it, and then complain to the Moderators when I get impatient with your stupidity.

You know, I am not universally hated. On every board I've ever been to, I have made friends. But yes, these friends are of the highest intellectual caliber. so, yes, of course, one could not suppose I would make many friends. I am not Will Rogers. In fact, I think it only natural not to like most people one meets. We are told at the End of Time that most people would be Corrupt and Foolish. It is Sad, but I find it True.

Anyway, I hope those few people for whom I have expressed my approval... I hope they are conscious of the honor.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Cryptic Cane
I havent really been around here long, but it would seem that you are misinterpreting people's good intent of having a friendly debate, thinking that they are making a malicious attack on your point of view and intellect.

I dont understand it, I read the topic which supposedly set you off, the one where you guys argued about castaneda's writing. I failed to locate anything in the whole topic that was offensive in anyway, by you or anyone else. I even thought that you held your ground well in the debate, like you usually do. But then you go making a post like this one.

You talk about dishonesty, and I agree with you completely. I have seen the \"dishonesty\" you are speaking out against. Personally I think that if someones gullible enough to fall for it, let them. Anyway, there is no way to stop this lying unless the moderators were to completely suppress \"freedom of speech\", which you hold in such high esteem.

Leo, you complain about the mods trying to silence you, but you show us no examples other than them moving your posts in the right forums. Without hard evidence, I dont think anyones going to believe you.

That post was subsequently backpaged and then the moderators PM'd me to give me my last warning. I guess they felt publically humiiated and used their positions of authority to make their point where logic and ethics had failed them.

Also, some of the complaint was mine. I continued with argument after argument, none of which the Moderator would answer with anything but further insistance that it was not possible that I should be right and he should be wrong. He went so far as to say that if I could prove him evil for his preferences, then he would enjoy the designation. It was the rejection of my Arguments on Aesthetic Grounds. the person has no place on a page where things are rationally argued. Now I don't mind somebody expressing a personal aesthetic preference. but to insist upon it on page after page after page -- it was harrassment and it was coming from a Moderator from whom there could be no redress.

And the Moderator was supporting a known fraud from whom every other Organization has had the sense to distance themselves. Since the Moderator wanted to harrass me in the interests of advancing another authors lies, I decided this Lack of Ethical and Moral Sensitivity should be exposed. he started it, and I would make a big stink out of it just to show him I won't be screwed with.

[Cryptic Cane]

Well, I guess if the mods PM'd you, it would be fairly easy to take a screenshot of the messages for everyone to see.

Seeker was asking for was evidence, such as a PM or a quote, something that could prove he was abusing his power and forcing his opinion by threatening you. Simply debating is not abusing moderator responsibilities.

Just because someone wont change their standpoint on a subject doesnt mean its harassment. Look at yourself, I dont see you even CONSIDERING anyone elses views, even after 3 pages of debate.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Cryptic Cane
Well, I guess if the mods PM'd you, it would be fairly easy to take a screenshot of the messages for everyone to see.

Seeker was asking for was evidence, such as a PM or a quote, something that could prove he was abusing his power and forcing his opinion by threatening you. Simply debating is not abusing moderator responsibilities.

Just because someone wont change their standpoint on a subject doesnt mean its harassment. Look at yourself, I dont see you even CONSIDERING anyone elses views, even after 3 pages of debate.

So, I am supposed to prove that his giving me a warning did not involve my thumping him hard in a debate.

My point is that Moderators, if they are to play at being referees, should never take the field as players. Are we to suppose that I can spank him as though her were a naughty little girl, in a debate and then that he can be totally impartial in regards to my other Posts.

Immediately afterward my posts were backpaged... which had never happened before, and I was given warnings... which had never happened before.

Looks like abuse of power to me... but I am only the victim.

[Barbizzle]

What are you trying to accomplish Leo? shut up and stop being a fool. Just drop this and Im sure everyone woudl be more than happy to forgive and forget. Maby you have some deep issues going on with you (well thats pretty obvious due to your explosive irrational behavior) that we dont knwo about. Perhaps it would be best if you took a break from Dv and then maby in a month or so come back when you have calmed down.

[Gargen]

Originally posted by Leo Volont
We Can’t Believe These People

The most important consideration when evaluating Subjective Phenomena is the Intellectual Integrity and Honesty of those giving their accounts. When once we find a Culture that glorifies in Sensationalism that is divorced from all appreciation for the Truth, then we have entered a Sci-Fi Page, a Fantasy Page, but definitely NOT a page where we can hope to gain any Real Insights or discover what we can trust are any Real Possibilities.

The Moderation on this page has repeatedly urged me to endorse the writings of Carlos Casteneda, who they full well know has been discredited for repeatedly publishing false reports while in the guise of upholding his credentials as a Research Anthropologist – a Scientist, who was turning in flagrantly false data. Yet it seems to be the Official Policy of this Page to stand behind that man’s writings? Why? Apparently it is thought that the Sensational and Theatrical nature of his fictions, which he published claiming it to be true, would be good for boosting the general Enthusiasm for Lucid Dreaming. It seems the Culture of this Page is intended toward pumping up Expectations, while it may only be of secondary concern whether any of these expectation can be actualized. And then, considering the Culture of Lies that is being encouraged here, by the Moderation, when we do here fabulous accounts of unbelievable feats accomplished while in Lucid Dreaming, we can only wonder whether it is not just more hype of fantasy, put forward by those who feel that if it is Okay for the Hero of our Moderators to falsify and exaggerate for the sake of a Good Story, then why should they refrain from such practices themselves. Indeed, how many liars here have not been applauded for their lies. The Bigger the Better. “I Lucid Dream every five minutes, control the universe, and all my enemies bow before me”… seems to be the gist of reports given by the those who do not receive any warnings from the Moderation. You see, patently false hype is what flies here. It’s telling the Truth that will get you in trouble.

But I did not give in to such pressures, and so first my posts were ‘back-paged’ to the unread sections (perhaps you’ve seen them by mistake when you wanted to click on something else), and then I was warned that I would be banned for bucking the ‘Party Line’.

I am a Religious Person and so I am acquainted with the concept of Religious Doctrine – that orthodoxy must be preserved and so adherents to what purports to be the ‘True’ Religion must be humble and accept doctrines, supposing that if they have a quarrel with any facet of the Doctrine, that it must only be because, in their human frailty, they must somehow have been mistaken, and that those who know better, and affirm these Doctrines, must be right. I never liked that idea very much. The idea of Doctrine seems to be a way for the Powerful Elites to sidestep the weaknesses in their Arguments. But at least there is a certain sense that everybody means well, that although they are at a loss to completely explain why, they do hope that they can believe that what they say is True. But, this is how corrupt This Page has become, that they don’t even pretend that it is True. They advocate a Lie and then they first shuffle off my Writings and then threaten to Ban me, for objecting to their Campaign of Lies.

I think we should require that all Posters should take an Oath for Intellectual Honesty. Yes, we may abbreviate a complex dream, or simplify a notion here and there, but we must hold it unacceptable to sensationalize, to exaggerate, and to advocate what we know to be false. And we need to throw out these Moderators whom we now know for certain we cannot trust.


Oh, and the Warning I was given was rather peculiar. It said that the Rules would not be applied againt \"friends\" but only against people with whom they have a problem. Selective Justice, or I should say, Targeted Retribution. It does not seem like very fair and equitable treatment, but I could hardly expect more from these moderators, given their general direction of behavior and what they've shown of the aptitudes.


apparently due to the amount a replies everyone else understood that accept me but hey im only 14 its in my nature to be confused by long written things, i think isort of get it but that kind of thing is impossible to police, i dont like to write 1000 words every time i post a dream i keep it breif just the main things in it (also im not that great at remembering details)

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Feeble Wizard
Leo, you are taking things much too seriously. A lot of people like to read your threads when you are not fighting, so don't get yourself banned :blue:. If it makes you feel better, a lot of times I just click on the name of a person I want to read from and just skim through the posts they made, so it doesn't always matter which forum something is in. I found this thread by looking through your posts, leo :)!

:laughhard: However, with that said... Does anyone else think this thread should be \"back-paged\" to the Feedback Forum :-P? (If not Senseless Banter :P?)

Oh, cool... I never imagined that that my posts would be actively looked for. thank you. and yes, I suppose somebody must enjoy reading my posts, because I could have bet my retirement that I would have been banned by now. I is true that I have been banned alot in the past and so I can discern the pattern fairly well, or so I thought. Maybe they need to convene a meeting first, and I am just living on borrowed time.

But, still, in any organization where certain people are given absolute powers, those with whom they disagree will never be around for long. And it seems to be a Universal Problem with Web Pages where there are simply no guarantees for Freedom of Speech, but all sorts of written in excuses to get rid of people who are considered to be troublesome, by the loosest of definitions and with not even the slightest pretence to for appeal.

Perhaps I should simply go back and sue all of these webpages for failure to render any form of due process. Nothing can change a System for the better more than to take people to Court and sue them for everything they got. It will make moderators think twice before they gratuitiously damage people's reputations and restrict their freedoms.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Barbizzle
What are you trying to accomplish Leo? shut up and stop being a fool. Just drop this and Im sure everyone woudl be more than happy to forgive and forget. Maby you have some deep issues going on with you (well thats pretty obvious due to your explosive irrational behavior) that we dont knwo about. Perhaps it would be best if you took a break from Dv and then maby in a month or so come back when you have calmed down.

Now, what about you? Are your insults supposed to be helping?

Now, about forgiving and forgetting... I was sent a last and final warning. When are we going to forget about that?

They want a stink, then I will make a stink. They want the stink to go away, then they can assure me that Moderators will forever just back away and leave me alone.

Weeks ago I warned them all that I do not appreciate the Entire Moderator System, and think it is against all liberal principals of Freedom. They came after me nonetheless, and then they offer to punish me for doing what I warned them would happen.

I will back off and forgive when they do.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Gargen



apparently due to the amount a replies everyone else understood that accept me but hey im only 14 its in my nature to be confused by long written things, i think isort of get it but that kind of thing is impossible to police, i dont like to write 1000 words every time i post a dream i keep it breif just the main things in it (also im not that great at remembering details)

Actually, 14 is just the right age to begin getting into the more complex writings. I read all of Dickens by the time I was 13, and then was relieved to find that Fielding, Johnson, Austen, the Bronte Sisters, Hardy and some others were so much more syntaxically organized.

Anyway, I would recommend "Tom Jones" by Henry Fielding, which is often an amusing novel, but which contains very long and well organized periods and paragraphs. After you get through that one book, you're overall ability to follow complex thoughts and to express yourself in both reading and writing will greatly improve. Why, I'm sure you will even jump by a few grade point averages.

But for the best English Style, without the forced stretch that Fielding puts upon one, I suppose it is a tie between Jane Austen and Thomas Hardy, depending on whether one prefers the Masculine or the Feminine.

[Gargen]

yea w/e i just read books on programming and metal bands

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Gargen
yea w/e i just read books on programming and metal bands

Well, if two people are competing for the leadership of a Metal Band, and all other things being equal, the one is scathingly articulate, and the other one always at a profound loss of words, then the Articulate one will ascend while his stuttering brother declines.

don't let anybody know, but start reading some quality literature, a little bit every day. Believe me, it will raise you up, even among that gang of hoodlums you run with. You'll seem more clever and everybody likes that.

and I do practice what I preach. I make myself study some foreign language everyday. it never seems like much, but once in awhile I catch myself understanding some of it. And it also keeps me from being quite so careless with my english.

[Seeker]

My dear, dear, Leo,

You just don't seem to understand. This is a Lucid Dreaming forum.

Our sole purpose is to help inform people and to help them in the development of their abilities to have lucid dreams.

We are NOT a debating site as you seem to think. Please consider this. It is not our mission to debate the right way or to debate morals and such. All religions and viewpoints are welcome here. We do all that we can to provide a neutral forum in which people can discuss Lucid Dreaming.

That it our charter and that is what our staff is committed to bring about, promotion of lucid dreaming.

If you think you have found a site on which you can endlessless debate, you are surely mistaken.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Seeker
My dear, dear, Leo, *

You just don't seem to understand. *This is a Lucid Dreaming forum.

Our sole purpose is to help inform people and to help them in the development of their abilities to have lucid dreams.

We are NOT a debating site as you seem to think. *Please consider this. *It is not our mission to debate the right way or to debate morals and such. *All religions and viewpoints are welcome here. *We do all that we can to provide a neutral forum in which people can discuss Lucid Dreaming.

That it our charter and that is what our staff is committed to bring about, promotion of lucid dreaming.

If you think you have found a site on which you can endlessless debate, you are surely mistaken.

And you don't seem to understand how important Honesty is to your charter. In subjective matters, Honesty from one person to another is the only basis for trust that purported techniques or occurrances are REALLY possible, and not just some sensational clap-trap that won't work and has never worked, but promulagated only because it sounded impressive.

I offer the example of my own experience in which I shared a dream with a second party. This PROVES that dreams are Objective Phenomena. but only if I can be believed. The credibility of All of Our Dream Research rests on our personal trustworthiness.

I want to be believed.

Last week you dismissed that as my simply shooting for debate points. You pretended that no serious individual could possibly REALLY consider ethics an important issue. It was extremely patronizing.

And then when I insisted that my own credibiiltiy demanded that I in no way ever attach my name to anything the least bit favorable toward Castenada, again you dismissed my concerns for my own reputation.

And then you offered to make lite of it all by fully volunteering to be the epitome of absolute evil. You accuse me of Debating, but what was that then just screwing with me with the sophistry of a school boy.

So, no, I again reiterate that a Lucid Dream Research Team is good for nothing unless it is absolutely understood that the Truth can never be violated.

And it still looks as though you are entirely unconscious of that lesson.

And about Endless Debates. It was you who badgered me last week. When I said "NO" were you not free to walk away. It was you who persisted, and then it was me who was punished for finally trying to say enough.

Good trick, trying to turn it around and blame me.

hey, you don't want a Eternal Debate, just say, "I'm sorry Leo, I should have appreciated the point you were making. Forgive me for having offended your sensibilities". But no, you would rather twist things around and bully people.

If there is an Eternal Debate it is because you can't admit you're wrong.

[Ev]

yeah, googling his name showed some interesting results.... try it yourself

Leo, your wisdom is way above this forum, we dumbasses cant understand the shit you post... Maybe some other forum will better understand you.

It is certain that you like to debate... It amazes me how much time you must spend online looking for confrontation and a way to spread your amazing ideas... several long ass posts on this forum + tons more on other + followup messages... Do you even have a life outside your theories and college education?

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Ev
yeah, googling his name showed some interesting results.... try it yourself

Leo, your wisdom is way above this forum, we dumbasses cant understand the shit you post... Maybe some other forum will better understand you.

It is certain that you like to debate... It amazes me how much time you must spend online looking for confrontation and a way to spread your amazing ideas... several long ass posts on this forum + tons more on other + followup messages... Do you even have a life outside your theories and college education?

I volunteer with stray cats and I sing in two church choirs.

And yes, I know I am much over the heads of many of the 'bumbasses' who visit these and other sites. Sometimes there is not a single person I can find who I can hope can read my writings with half the comprehension it would take to understand what I am saying. It is not at all rewarding to write for those Pages. But there is usually a few people on each page that know what I'm saying. It may not appear so, from where you look -- you don't notice the compliments. You don't see the congratulatory PM's. Just today I was notified that I should not be so concerned with being 'backpaged' by the moderators, since this one fellow actually searches my name and goes deliberately to read my posts. So I do have an audiance. Believe me, it does this Page great honor that there are those for whom I can write -- that not everybody here is a dumbass.

Also, Moderators take note, that if the people here are so intent upon insulting themselves, it would hardly be grounds for banning me if I should ever begin to voice my agreement with the low opinion with which they hold themselves.

[Tornado Joe]

Originally posted by Professor Volont
I volunteer with stray cats and I sing in two church choirs.


http://www.oldies.com/images/boxart/large/9/090431930120.jpg

SWEET! You F**kn rock! Can you get Brian Setzer's autograph for me?!!

[Seeker]

Originally posted by Leo Volont
just say, \"I'm sorry Leo, I should have appreciated the point you were making. Forgive me for having offended your sensibilities\". But no, you would rather twist things around and bully people.

Will this truly make you happy Leo? Is this all you want? OK, I do appreaciate that you feel your sensibilities have been violated, however, I also have my own set of sensibilities. I truly feel sorry for you and wish that you could approach this with an open mind.

Do you want to hear about my sensibilities? I feel that each person has their own path that they forge in life and that it is up to them and them alone to decide their own destiny.

Does this make me evil or reprobate inyour eyes?

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Tornado Joe


http://www.oldies.com/images/boxart/large/9/090431930120.jpg

SWEET! You F**kn rock! Can you get Brian Setzer's autograph for me?!!

Well, not those 'Stray Cats' -- I meant otherwise domestic cats who were not socialized with humans and so they are feral -- wild. I feed them, and if I see a medical emergency, I make my best effort to catch them and take them to the Vet.

[pdiddles03]

ok i cant take that idiot much longer. the leo guy. he just sounds so stupid. he's trying to sound like some intelligent scholar. he almost wrecked a thread on me one time. im getting really sick of him. i mean no one else has a problem with any one else. but he has to be like. no u cant dont what u want in your dream. there's restrictions. im sorry. im just really getting sick of it. and i wish someone would do somthing about it

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Seeker


Will this truly make you happy Leo? Is this all you want? OK, I do appreaciate that you feel your sensibilities have been violated, however, I also have my own set of sensibilities. I truly feel sorry for you and wish that you could approach this with an open mind.

Do you want to hear about my sensibilities? I feel that each person has their own path that they forge in life and that it is up to them and them alone to decide their own destiny.

Does this make me evil or reprobate inyour eyes?

Try again, but take out the "I truly feel sorry for you". You must know that that is patronizing.

Was it so hard to make yourself apologize? You actually begun but had to sabotage yourself. Did you think I was too stupid to notice your word play?

Try again.

If you will honestly and sincerely apologize, I will consider your feelings as well.

But if you are only going to continue to insult and insult and insult...

Now, Each Person can have his own Path. I have no problem with that. But they cannot lie about it. When I say an angel came to me and said something -- gave me a message -- there can be no leeway about what that Angel said to me. To change those words around to suit myself would be ... reprehensible.

But that is what Castenada did in 7 volumes. Maybe you will have to explain again how Castenado Muddying the Waters of Spirituality is somehow a valid Path for anybody. And remember, I did not call for a general bookburning. I only wanted not to be associated with it myself -- a wish which you did not then respect. What, am I not entitlted to My Path?

So, are you going to give me a sincere apology without the sarcasm and patronization? It would be better if you would.

[TheUnknown]

I hate to say it.. but to an extent I back Leo. Other then Seeker, most of the people in the thread are attacking him just because they don't like him or his views. I've been in alot of flamewars and I must say, he's one of the better debators I see. There are of course a few flaws in his writings. For instance, he tends to assume that most of the other members (including moderators), have a background into what arguments he brings up. This leads to a problem in which the writings sound like unbased attacks.

I'm going to play the part of moderator and analyst into this situation as best as I can, because in such a situation as this, the regular moderators are not going to be neutral. I've always been able to take both sides of an argument and look at them both without favoring either side. I'll try to offer my advice as best as I can. I'm sorry I don't quote alot, but forums aren't my main form of communication.. I've run a few IRC channels for over 5 years now, and I've seen my share of arguments.

Seeker, I would not be swayed by Leo, however I'm highly against a ban at this point of time. What I am against however, is the fact that a thread like this was open to the public. Having random people come in and say "Leo brings out the bad in everyone", and others saying they are just sick of him are not helping is not going to help matters.

Leo, I want to pose the question to you then. How do we know you are not the lier in this instance. Its obvious you have a good deal of wisdom, so how can it not be ruled out that you are the one spewing lies now? If you want to lead an open attack against a moderator, you should be either doing it in private, or doing it in the open with many references as to when these "lies" were spread by who, and backed up by reputable sources that can back the "truth" you are pushing. I'm sorry, but through all those long posts, i'm not seeing a well-prepared defense against yourself.

Another thing I notice you saying, Leo, is the whole Freedom of Speech here. I do not see this post being deleted, and I do not see you being banned. I see people bitching, but that's also free speech. I think you should try to narrow your theme of writing down to Lucid Dreaming and related studies as this was why the forums were established here. I understand you want people to know what you know, but pushing it all at once is futile, it will be met with resistance. I also know that at times there should be background given into a topic, and I see you do it. I've found many of your posts to be very straightforward (although longwinded) and helpful.

I cannot see where this negativeness is coming from the other users, of course I can understand Seeker's anger at you, but if you're not going to come out there and offer reference, i'll just conclude that the both of you are fighting over bullshit.

Seeker, even though you are an admin, in such an argument as this, since it was already initiated and you continued into it, your side of view should be backed as well. If you feel that there is some good to Casteneda's writings, say so and explain what you want others to know. But as Leo said.. if you are going to argue, leave the refereeing to an outside party. Banning him might rid you of the problem, but it would just give the impression that you lost, and dealt with it poorly.

Both arguers are faring poorly in this situation, Seeker has an upper-hand because people like him and he's an admin. Leo just rambles on and on calling what he wants lies. In such a situation, I can't say taking action against either party is good. This current argument should be brought to the next level or left to die. Its not Leo's nature however to just let things go, and its what is going to cause more arguments if he can't stick to the theme of the forums.

Leo, your style is not working. It would be a shame to see a great mind leave here, but a few things you should try to do otherwise no matter what others will try to do to stop it, your probably going to be thrown out. .

1. The power of suggestion works wonders, instead of openly attacking people and calling them liers, suggest works and such that might HELP convey what you want them to hear.

2. Stick to a theme goddammit. I see you like to argue politics quite a bit right now, whether it be forums or outside. Find another outlet for such talk, this isn't really the place, nor will the people be very accepting because for one, politics stir up flamewars that don't die down easilly, and two, most of the people here are not well learned in it, therefore they are going to lack the understanding of why you place such radical views.

3. Continue to offer your experiences, and insight into various Dream-related activity. You're very good at this and offer a much different look into things.

4. Simplify your writing. I'm not asking you to use poor grammer and speak like a 12-year old AOLer, but long posts such as yours can be wearying for people to read. In my case its usually a shorter style, but that is because my main communication is through IRC. Here things are more open, but you are writing posts like they are encyclicals.

To the people outside of the argument, stop being so damned biased, I relize Seeker is a good admin, and he's got the better people skills, but there might just be a chance that Leo has a couple good points.. he just lacks an efficient way to get them across.

To the admins, do not ban Leo, at least not yet. In such an argument you yourselves became a part of it, therefore any decision you make is biased and therefore against the whole Free Speech principle the site has going. Give this matter a little time.

Ok Leo, Seeker, other admins and mods, and of course regular members... have a go at me. I want to hear feedback on what I have to input, because I feel in this situation everything is tilting to one side and some clarification needs to be put into this matter. After all, I don't see any ungrounded attacks from members to moderators.

[pdiddles03]

i dunno bout leo being right bout anything at all. he's seems like sort of a . well lets just say i think he's a butt. lol thats a nice way to put it. im sick of him saying people are stupid for doing things and crap. cuz thats wall i ever see when i see him reply to a post someone made. it gets me mad after a while. sorry i dont even know why i started posting in this thread. i just care bout actually getting help with lucid dreaming on this site

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by TheUnknown
I hate to say it.. but to an extent I back Leo. Other then Seeker, most of the people in the thread are attacking him just because they don't like him or his views. I've been in alot of flamewars and I must say, he's one of the better debators I see. There are of course a few flaws in his writings. For instance, he tends to assume that most of the other members (including moderators), have a background into what arguments he brings up. This leads to a problem in which the writings sound like unbased attacks.

I'm going to play the part of moderator and analyst into this situation as best as I can, because in such a situation as this, the regular moderators are not going to be neutral. I've always been able to take both sides of an argument and look at them both without favoring either side. I'll try to offer my advice as best as I can. I'm sorry I don't quote alot, but forums aren't my main form of communication.. I've run a few IRC channels for over 5 years now, and I've seen my share of arguments.

Seeker, I would not be swayed by Leo, however I'm highly against a ban at this point of time. What I am against however, is the fact that a thread like this was open to the public. Having random people come in and say \"Leo brings out the bad in everyone\", and others saying they are just sick of him are not helping is not going to help matters.

Leo, I want to pose the question to you then. How do we know you are not the lier in this instance. Its obvious you have a good deal of wisdom, so how can it not be ruled out that you are the one spewing lies now? If you want to lead an open attack against a moderator, you should be either doing it in private, or doing it in the open with many references as to when these \"lies\" were spread by who, and backed up by reputable sources that can back the \"truth\" you are pushing. I'm sorry, but through all those long posts, i'm not seeing a well-prepared defense against yourself.

Another thing I notice you saying, Leo, is the whole Freedom of Speech here. I do not see this post being deleted, and I do not see you being banned. I see people bitching, but that's also free speech. I think you should try to narrow your theme of writing down to Lucid Dreaming and related studies as this was why the forums were established here. I understand you want people to know what you know, but pushing it all at once is futile, it will be met with resistance. I also know that at times there should be background given into a topic, and I see you do it. I've found many of your posts to be very straightforward (although longwinded) and helpful.

I cannot see where this negativeness is coming from the other users, of course I can understand Seeker's anger at you, but if you're not going to come out there and offer reference, i'll just conclude that the both of you are fighting over bullshit.

Seeker, even though you are an admin, in such an argument as this, since it was already initiated and you continued into it, your side of view should be backed as well. If you feel that there is some good to Casteneda's writings, say so and explain what you want others to know. But as Leo said.. if you are going to argue, leave the refereeing to an outside party. Banning him might rid you of the problem, but it would just give the impression that you lost, and dealt with it poorly.

Both arguers are faring poorly in this situation, Seeker has an upper-hand because people like him and he's an admin. Leo just rambles on and on calling what he wants lies. In such a situation, I can't say taking action against either party is good. This current argument should be brought to the next level or left to die. Its not Leo's nature however to just let things go, and its what is going to cause more arguments if he can't stick to the theme of the forums.

Leo, your style is not working. It would be a shame to see a great mind leave here, but a few things you should try to do otherwise no matter what others will try to do to stop it, your probably going to be thrown out. .

1. The power of suggestion works wonders, instead of openly attacking people and calling them liers, suggest works and such that might HELP convey what you want them to hear.

2. Stick to a theme goddammit. I see you like to argue politics quite a bit right now, whether it be forums or outside. Find another outlet for such talk, this isn't really the place, nor will the people be very accepting because for one, politics stir up flamewars that don't die down easilly, and two, most of the people here are not well learned in it, therefore they are going to lack the understanding of why you place such radical views.

3. Continue to offer your experiences, and insight into various Dream-related activity. You're very good at this and offer a much different look into things.

4. Simplify your writing. I'm not asking you to use poor grammer and speak like a 12-year old AOLer, but long posts such as yours can be wearying for people to read. In my case its usually a shorter style, but that is because my main communication is through IRC. Here things are more open, but you are writing posts like they are encyclicals.

To the people outside of the argument, stop being so damned biased, I relize Seeker is a good admin, and he's got the better people skills, but there might just be a chance that Leo has a couple good points.. he just lacks an efficient way to get them across.

To the admins, do not ban Leo, at least not yet. In such an argument you yourselves became a part of it, therefore any decision you make is biased and therefore against the whole Free Speech principle the site has going. Give this matter a little time.

Ok Leo, Seeker, other admins and mods, and of course regular members... have a go at me. I want to hear feedback on what I have to input, because I feel in this situation everything is tilting to one side and some clarification needs to be put into this matter. After all, I don't see any ungrounded attacks from members to moderators.

yes, most everything Unknown says is correct enough to not worry about quibbling over; however, there is the point about you supposing that I am calling anybody a liar.

Perhaps I did not make the distinction clear enough. My problem was that Seeker was openly advocating a discredited author whom all the World takes for a liar. Therefore Seeker was in some sense Advocating the use of Lies to acquire fame and fortune -- this auther was so clearly a hero of his. It was my argument that this condoning of Lies, in an Auther, and the recommendations given for that authors books would set up an atmosphere in which all of the members here, even the ones engaged in Team Research would decide the best way to make a big name for themselves would be to fictionalize, sensationalize and fabricate just like the Moderator's Favorite Author and Hero.

Go back and you will see I never called anybody a liar, but simply said that the Policy of the Administration seemed to condone lying.

Notice that Seeker never argued the point that his favorite Author was a Liar and even concedes the point when he refers to some second half of one of the books being too much for even himself to swallow.

So there was never any dispute that the Author in question was a liar. That was stipulated by both sides. The question was one of whether this discredited Author should be the Poster Boy for Dream Views. I insisted that all would be tainted by his bad reputation who assosiated their name to him, but Seeker thought that a useful points should redeem him. I replied that the Author must have gotten that material from somewhere and that with alittle homework one could find the Original Source for whatever was found useful in the discredited author. Yes, I was assuming that a liar could also be a thief that the author in question lifted whatever useful doctrines he published from other previously published materials. Or, I then suggested, that subsequent authors had treated of similar techniques and theories, and that it would be more honest and reputable to advance these honest authors then one who was so entirely discredited.

So, no, I called nobody a liar, but pointed out that the Administration was sponsoring a culture of lies. And still, nobody has yet to deny the point.

Unknown, if you are to be a judge, you ought to learn how to read. You say my style is difficult, and apparently it is, for it was obvious that you could not follow the fine distinctions. A great philosopher of the 20th Century said that the surest indication of intelligence is in the capacity to be able to make and understand fine distinctions. Was it really so difficult to understand the difference between calling somebody a liar and saying that he advocates a culture of lies? Apparently.

If there were not a few people on this Page who do get the fine distinctions, I guess it would be good to dumb down my writings. Buit then again, we have people like yourself who are perfectly capable of writing for that crowd.

[Barbizzle]

If there were not a few people on this Page who do get the fine distinctions, I guess it would be good to dumb down my writings. Buit then again, we have people like yourself who are perfectly capable of writing for that crowd. [/b]

Leo, first of all you piss me off. Do you honestly think your better than most of us here? Is it only you who can determine what are truths and lies? Who died and left you God?
I feel bad for you becase all of these arguments and knowledge you have is not making you a happy person. You appear to be a pessimistic, argumentivie, agitator. As Seeker stated, this is a Lucid Dreaming forum. If you feel that you better than us, and know the "Truth" why dont you just leave this LUCID DREAMING FORUM.

[Placebo]

Originally posted by Leo+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Leo)</div>So, no, I called nobody a liar[/b]
No, you suggested that he was evil. And when he found it amusing, you assumed it as a truth. Is this honestly how you determine your truth in life?

Originally posted by Leo+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Leo)</div>everyone has been wrong and I have been consistently right [/b]
Oh, the 'I'm not crazy, it's everyone else that's nuts' analogy. Do you honestly believe that every ounce of your opinions be worshipped as absolute truth? And so you've always been right and never changed your mind?
I'm simply suggesting that perhaps somebody else on this forum may have a view other than yours that is actually correct.

Why should we respect your opinions when you do not respect others'?

Originally posted by Cryptic Cane
Look at yourself, I dont see you even CONSIDERING anyone elses views, even after 3 pages of debate
Exactly my point

<!--QuoteBegin-Leo@
So, I am supposed to prove that his giving me a warning did not involve my thumping him hard in a debate
Yes, because without that kind of evidence, you're simply starting a war based on assumption.

WE'RE STILL WAITING FOR EVIDENCE OF THESE ATROCITIES COMMITED AGAINST YOU

<!--QuoteBegin-Leo
Looks like abuse of power to me... but I am only the victim
I can't believe how self involved you are :shock:

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Barbizzle
If there were not a few people on this Page who do get the fine distinctions, I guess it would be good to dumb down my writings. Buit then again, we have people like yourself who are perfectly capable of writing for that crowd.

Leo, first of all you piss me off. Do you honestly think your better than most of us here? Is it only you who can determine what are truths and lies? Who died and left you God?
I feel bad for you becase all of these arguments and knowledge you have is not making you a happy person. You appear to be a pessimistic, argumentivie, agitator. As Seeker stated, this is a Lucid Dreaming forum. If you feel that you better than us, and know the \"Truth\" why dont you just leave this LUCID DREAMING FORUM.[/b]

Hey, but aren't you one of the people that TheUnknown was talking about, the kind that can never hope to understand what I am saying unless I dumb myself down first.

Maybe you should stay in your own league.

[Leo Volont]

Dear Placebo,

I always wondered about the kind of person who has to chop his essays up into bite size little pieces. What? You don't have enough attention span to write a real essay.

I glanced over what you had and decided you just wanted to get into the fray, but frankly saw nothing in what you wrote that would have you qualify to be heard.

But maybe if you could learn to put two coherent thoughts together someday...

[OpheliaBlue]

Originally posted by Leo Volont
Hey, but aren't you one of the people that TheUnknown was talking about, the kind that can never hope to understand what I am saying unless I dumb myself down first.Maybe you should stay in your own league.
You better take that back you geriatric fungus.

The man you just insulted is one of the kindest and most gracious human beings you will ever hope to meet. And being scarcely a quarter of your age, he is more than 4 times the man you could ever hope to dream of becoming. So rather than insulting him, why don't you try being a bit more like him.

Time to climb of your self-righteous hobby horse Leo...intellectually you may have an edge here and there, but socially and emotionally, you are monkey city baby.

[Cryptic Cane]

Leo, this isnt an arguement about people who get angry at you because they dont understand you. Sure some people here may not understand your posts, but the majority does, and the majority of people praised you for your theories. I doubt anyone wants you banned just because they dont understand you or like your opinion. The whole point of this arguement is your anger about the moderators abusing their powers because they lost in a debate. You said earlier that they PM'd you, so, if you still have the PM, take a screenshot of it and post it here. Actual evidence holds more water than the talk of the accuser.

You cant just say your always right and call anyone who goes against you unintelligent and uncapable of understanding what you say. I could say that I'm always right. Of course you wouldnt believe me, noone else would either. You probaly dont think I'm right now, do you?

This arguement could quite possibly go on forever. The same points have been brought out again and again, and it all leads back to one thing: nothing. I'm not on seeker's or your side, I just think this neverending mudslinging contest is pointless.

I do however think some your posts were backpaged because they were misunderstood, either that or they got out of hand and offtopic.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by OpheliaBlue

You better take that back you geriatric fungus.

The man you just insulted is one of the kindest and most gracious human beings you will ever hope to meet. And being scarcely a quarter of your age, he is more than 4 times the man you could ever hope to dream of becoming. So rather than insulting him, why don't you try being a bit more like him.

Time to climb of your self-righteous hobby horse Leo...intellectually you may have an edge here and there, but socially and emotionally, you are monkey city baby.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and all of you gracious and kind villagers are coming up to my Palace in the middle of the night with your torches and pitchforks with no other intent than to do me harm. Not the least of all you!

When I said I was going to raise a Stink, yes, I knew I could count upon the likes of you and your kind hearted friends. Just examine your behaviors, you mob! Have you made things better, or by screaming for my blood, have you just exaggerated an already bad situation.

So don't come to me asking to dance and then complain that I make you dizzy. If you didn't want any of this, then you might have minded your own business.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Cryptic Cane
Leo, this isnt an arguement about people who get angry at you because they dont understand you. Sure some people here may not understand your posts, but the majority does, and the majority of people praised you for your theories. I doubt anyone wants you banned just because they dont understand you or like your opinion. The whole point of this arguement is your anger about the moderators abusing their powers because they lost in a debate. You said earlier that they PM'd you, so, if you still have the PM, take a screenshot of it and post it here. Actual evidence holds more water than the talk of the accuser.

You cant just say your always right and call anyone who goes against you unintelligent and uncapable of understanding what you say. I could say that I'm always right. Of course you wouldnt believe me, noone else would either. You probaly dont think I'm right now, do you?

This arguement could quite possibly go on forever. The same points have been brought out again and again, and it all leads back to one thing: nothing. I'm not on seeker's or your side, I just think this neverending mudslinging contest is pointless.

I do however think some your posts were backpaged because they were misunderstood, either that or they got out of hand and offtopic.

You are very kind.

As for my posting a private correspondance, I don't think that would be discreet. Besides, any corresponsdance from a Moderator is indeed a form of harrassment.. They don't come to chat about the Weather, you know. It is like the police kicking down one's door. Isn't that enough?

Now, as to the I am always right and anybody who disagrees with me is wrong. It makes me wonder that everybody finds this so surprising. What would they expect of themselves at the age of 60 if they were to have lived a Good and Pure Life in pursuit of the Wisdom of the Ages. I have followed my Dreams now for over 40 Years. After all that, isn't it the hope of everyone on this Page that I should understand some Benefit from it. After 40 Years of Spiritual Work in Dreams, should one NOT have some True Discernment? Or is it the contention of this Page that People ought to go through their entire lives uniformally stupid never showing a trace of Improvement.

In one of my first Important Dreams, the Lady Archetype -- the Lady Oracle -- She told me that "only those at the bottom cannot go to the Top". Well, then one needs to get off of the bottom. But much of the mentality of this Page seems to delight in bottom feeding. I am being stigmatized for not desiring to rub shoulders with the lowest of the low... what does Seeker say 'for not granting everybody their own path'. It is Elitist to insist upon Right and Wrong. Well, that is thinking from the Bottom.

So, we ought to wait until some other people here are in their Sixties, and have applied themselves to the pursuit of wisdom for their entire adult lives, and then see how they like it when virtual teenagers then demand that they forget everything they learned, and abandon all Wisdom, in order to fit in with all of the Born Yesterday crowd.

But it is my guess that when more of this Page reaches 60 then there will be perhaps more disgust at the arrogance of youth that holds up its ignorance as though it were a virtue.

As for this going on forever. Well, Seeker had tried to apologize once, but couldn't make it through all the way. He had to get condescending about it. But perhaps if he applies himself he can get through two or three civil sentences without an insult.

[jill1978]

I had to read one of his books after all the talk about him. It sounds like drug induced hallucinations to me, but who knows. I try to look at it like anything else unexplained (including religion). It might be true, who knows! I can see how people get wrapped up in beleiving in it, because it would be nice if it was true. All unexplained things give me a sense of wonder, because anything could be possible. I tend to be a skeptic, but being 100% skeptical makes you loose that sense of wonder.

[Seeker]

TheUnknown: Thank you, that was a very well written post! I will heed your advice. You stated that thig agrument should be taken to the next level or left to die. I agree, this is wearisome and is distracting from our primary focus here at Dreamviews.

Leo, please be warned. This topic has already strayed far from the boudaries of General Discussion and will me moved eventually, not now, but soon, to the Extended Discussion forum where things like this belong. This is not an attack on you or your opinions, just housekeeping.

Now back to the point TheUnknown made. I am in favor of letting this die, here is how I propose we do it.

I will make one final clarification of my views, Leo will make one final clarification of his views and then I am in favor of letting this whole thing rest. Win, lose, draw, it doesn't matter to me.

Is the agreeable to you Leo?

OK here goes.

I never stated that Carlos Castaneda was my favorite author or that I believe everyone should hold every word that he wrote to be the gospel truth. There are nuggets of truth to be found in his writings. This is true for his writings as well as those of many others, Leo's included.

The main point I am advocating is that everyone keep an OPEN mind when reading writings such as his, look for the nuggets of truth, discard the rest. Just because someone has written fiction is no reason to discount everything that he has written. This is a case of throwing out the baby with the bath water.

When I find a questionable author, I am more critical of the things he has written, I do not automaticaly discount everything he writes as lies, but I am much more skeptical of his writings. This is what it means to be open minded.

[jill1978]

Ok to play devils advocate..Dont pick on leo for spending too much time writeing posts. How can anyone be the judge of how someone spends their time, and if he cares for stray animals his heart is in the right place. Emotional intelligence is different from regular intelligence.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by jill1978
I had to read one of his books after all the talk about him. It sounds like drug induced hallucinations to me, but who knows. I try to look at it like anything else unexplained (including religion). It might be true, who knows! I can see how people get wrapped up in beleiving in it, because it would be nice if it was true. All unexplained things give me a sense of wonder, because anything could be possible. I tend to be a skeptic, but being 100% skeptical makes you loose that sense of wonder.

Well, the problem there with these books in question -- the Author was a Research Anthropologist for one of the California Universities. He was on sabatical, or whatever they call it, to do actual Field Research. And then the books he subsequently published were supposed to be the results of this actual Field Research. Now, I don't know whether they ever swear in Scientists, as they swear in Physicians, but Scientists are under a Tacit Oath to uphold the Truth -- the Truth of their Data -- the Truth of the notes they submit. At first a good many people believed that these Books were Real -- that they were the results of actual Anthropological Research conducted by a bonafide Anthropologist from one of California's better Universities. There was some suspicion that the books were published through a Popular Publishing House and not at the University Level first, but nothing that sounded any alarms. But then a spate of other Anthropologists combed across the Southwest to see if they could find their own Don Juans... and the truth soon became clear. The Books in question did not even give an accurate description of the Sonoran Desert, of the fauna and flora. The people never heard of any of this Don Juan type of crap. so the storm unfolded, and extentually the author himself started making "What is Truth" quotes.

so the problem is that all of those books source out of grandiose lack of Intellectual Honesty. The only certainty is that none of it can be believed.

And the deplorable thing about it is that people still reward him by buying the books. All while there are honest researchers just scraping by, but since the Truth is not so exotic and does not appeal to the Amoral Sensationalists of the World, they toil in obscurity while the liars and frauds continue to rake in the homage of a corrupt humanity.

[Gargen]

Originally posted by Ev
yeah, googling his name showed some interesting results.... try it yourself

Leo, your wisdom is way above this forum, we dumbasses cant understand the shit you post... Maybe some other forum will better understand you.

It is certain that you like to debate... It amazes me how much time you must spend online looking for confrontation and a way to spread your amazing ideas... several long ass posts on this forum + tons more on other + followup messages... Do you even have a life outside your theories and college education?

see someone else doesnt get this either, but i think Seekers right man just chill out

[jill1978]

I would'nt mistake his books for scientific work, even if he claimed they were. His following is small, he cant do too much damage to the world of science research.

[Placebo]

Leo - I apologise for your distress at having to read through disjointed quote replies. This was simply because a lot had been said that I wished to comment on, and it did not necessarily all tie together.

If I can summarise everything I want(ed) to say, it comes back to this: when we can see the evidence that led you to believe you were harassed and the moderation is corrupt, then we can take it seriously. Seeker does not seem to mind his private messages being displayed in this thread (correct me if I'm wrong, Seeker).
Until this happens, it simply looks like you're trying to stir things up for a dishonorable reason.

Perhaps this can also be resolved as per Seeker's last post, which would negate the need for the private messages? (although I don't see why, Seeker feels so though)

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by jill1978
Ok to play devils advocate..Dont pick on leo for spending too much time writeing posts. How can anyone be the judge of how someone spends their time, and if he cares for stray animals his heart is in the right place. Emotional intelligence is different from regular intelligence.

Well, thank you. It seems I have an 'ally'.

yes, believe it not, but the cats have taught me a great deal about patience... but perhaps also alittle something about how to bite, hiss and claw.

[jill1978]

Sorry I'm allegic, so someone other than me has to love them, so it's great you're doing it. I have two maltese dogs and they really are my best friends, I'm constantly amazed by the love I feel from them....and yes you could over analyze this and say it's all instincts for them and they dont really love they just suck up for food, and so I dont kill them....But I wont hear any of it.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by jill1978
Sorry I'm allegic, so someone other than me has to love them, so it's great you're doing it. I have two maltese dogs and they really are my best friends, I'm constantly amazed by the love I feel from them....and yes you could over analyze this and say it's all instincts for them and they dont really love they just suck up for food, and so I dont kill them....But I wont hear any of it.

I wish I could keep dogs, but I am so often away from the house... the things would get lonely. But cats can keep to themselves for hours at a time without minding too much.

and yes, I have seen the trust that even my feral wild cats place in me. On more than one instance, I have seen even my newest feral cats become surrounded by a pack of wild dogs, and when I run up and let out my Terrible Wild Animal Roar, a sound I can make, what happens is that all of the dogs will jump in terror, but the cat will keep its place. These cats KNEW that I was taking their side. Oh, by the way, the same Terrible Wild Animal Roar works equally well dispersing children. You see, when I spend too much time with the cats, I quite sometimes forget that I am a human gifted with Language, and revert to more primitive vocalizations.

One of the things I have learned with these animals is that they respect Alpha Behavior. They want a show of Dominance once in awhile in order to give them confidence that you are able to protect the Territory of the Feeding Stations. In that regard, it makes it good practice to chase away a New Feral a few times before finally allowing it to feed -- it knows at first hand that you are not afraid to use your monstrous size, for it, as well as against it.

Recently I had a case I still wonder about. Ferals will eventually get close, but not enough so that you could catch them -- well, sometimes the older Tom Cats have enough confidence to let you thump them on the side. But ferals for the most part keep their distance. Well, this one very hateful young female became sick -- she couldn't eat and her snout was covered with a discharge. I thought certainly she was going to die. But then she stayed at my side and would cry and cry and cry. But I supposed she would simply not let me catch her. Finally it dawned on me that in weakened state, I could make a grab for her. Well, her instincts made her avoid my first few clumcy grabs, but I was surprised that she kept coming back to me almost immediately, as though her better sense was convincing her to let me catch her and put her in the box, which is what eventually transpired. We went to the doctor I have on retainer, and it was only a large bone caught in her teeth.

So, yes, even the very wild ones can learn to trust.

Oh, by the way, while she was recuperating in the hospital, three little babies came wondering out of the jungle, distraught that they were missing their mother. they were delighted when I brought Momma home. so I set up a new feeding station and instantly weaned them onto Dry Kibble Food -- the Taste of Civilization.

[icedawg]

Leo, let me explain something to you: this is a privately run forum. In fact, I am the sole contributor to this forum's monthly cost. While it's true that I do champion freedom of speech, you are mistaken that it is an undeniable right of yours here. You won't see me censoring your posts--other than making sure they are in the proper categories--but nevertheless, again, this forum does not fall under public jurisdiction. I'll tell you what, though: if you want to start paying for the monthly fees of this forum, I'll let you decide how things should be run. How's that sound? Regardless, free speech really does exist here, providing respect and tolerance for fellow users is maintained--including their beliefs--and also that topics are placed where they belong.

Moving on, this is a lucid dreaming forum, and we only want lucid dreaming discussions in the 'Dreams' category of forums. It seems to me you've brought this attack upon us because you're upset that we have moved your posts to the proper forums, and also because we have discouraged off-topic discussion in the lucid dreaming forums (at least, that's the extent of my involvement). I want this forum to be different than other lucid dreaming forums because there already are lots of dream forums that get into spirituality and religious beliefs, etc. I want us to stand out and have a unique existence on the Internet, instead of being classified as just another dreaming forum. Basically, I just want to try something different than others have tried, and frankly that's completely up to me because it's my forum.

Furthermore, we are extremely accommodating because we ALLOW the type of discussions you are interested in, providing you place them in the forums they belong. It is also very rarely that people achieve banishments, because again we often find ourselves bending over backwards for people. If you work with us, we'll work with you. You're upset apparently because you don't have absolute freedom to say anything you want, anywhere you want here. If you could, others would just get upset because they would have more difficulty finding information on the topics they are searching for because the boards would be replete with off-topic material.

Originally posted by Leo Volont
Weeks ago I warned them all that I do not appreciate the Entire Moderator System, and think it is against all liberal principals of Freedom. They came after me nonetheless, and then they offer to punish me for doing what I warned them would happen.

It's interesting that you should note that; I mention this here because of the immediate parallel: you were given the opportunity to disagree to our terms before registering. If you click the 'Register' button (after logging out), you'll notice this sentence: \"You agree that the administrators and moderators of this forum have the right to remove, edit, move or close any topic at any time should they see fit.\" If you intended to completely disagree with that, you shouldn't have registered here. We told you right out what to expect, and yet you nevertheless registered. I would have appreciated you contacting me right away with your concerns, and perhaps we could have avoided all this somehow. Again, though, you agreed to our terms prior to registering.

Originally posted by Leo Volont
Anyway, Icedawg, and whoever else shares your reasoning -- you are either stupid for having dismissed the Logic that I was always right and have been a consistent victim, or you are intellectually dishonest for suppressing that Truth in order to win your hateful case.

I really can't believe you just resorted to calling me "stupid"; I honestly thought you were above that. But fine, play your game however you see fit. By the way, are you listening to yourself? Let me repeat for you: "I was always right." Again..."I was always right." Wow...I've never met someone who is always right before. Let me try to teach you, the teacher, something: sometimes, it's not the message you have to deliver, but how you deliver it that's most important. The message itself loses its merit if it's delivered in such a way that it turns its audience away. Perhaps you should reflect on all the forums you've been ostracized from, and wonder if maybe, just maybe, even if you were right, you managed to convince others that you were wrong. What good is a message if it always falls on deaf ears? Perhaps there's more than one way to achieve your goals.


Good luck.

P.S. I apologize for my gibes in regards to your lengthy posts.

[nesgirl119]

Originally posted by icedawg

I really can't believe you just resorted to calling me \"stupid\"; I honestly thought you were above that. But fine, play your game however you see fit. By the way, are you listening to yourself?

Don't listen to him! I bet that your IQ is higher than his, & I happen to know that you are one of the smartest people on this forum (and dreamin of gamin, too!)!! You always have something nice to say, even in a tough situation like this one..
On the other hand, I really like the moderators!

Originally posted by Leo Volont
Anyway, Icedawg, and whoever else shares your reasoning -- you are either stupid for having dismissed the Logic that I was always right and have been a consistent victim, or you are intellectually dishonest for suppressing that Truth in order to win your hateful case.

Leo, please stop insulting Icedawg & Seeker....you are making me really upset!http://img261.echo.cx/img261/7138/sosad0ug.gif (http://www.imageshack.us)

[Seeker]

*Seeker hands nesgirl a new DS game*

Be calm nesgirl, plese don't fret so, it's bad for you :D

[nesgirl119]

Originally posted by Seeker
*Seeker hands nesgirl a new DS game*

Be calm nesgirl, plese don't fret so, it's bad for you :D


That is okay...I got reinforcements from Splash...she is back & she will defend you too! (there is no new DS game :lol: yet!! & I just paid off the 2 Fire Emblems)

[splash]

Originally posted by nesgirl119


Leo, please stop insulting Icedawg & Seeker....you are making me really upset!http://img261.echo.cx/img261/7138/sosad0ug.gif (http://www.imageshack.us)
I aggre with nesgirl forget about them and who ever is insulting icedog and seeker STOP NOW OR YOU WILL REGRET IT . :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[sephiroth clock]

Leo= Wilson, Moderators=Big Brother... Thats what I sense is being said.
It's a shame you can't trust them. I know for sure 95% of them are people with lots of integrity (can't speak for all of them).

Anyways quotes that I enjoyed from this thread.

Vague posturing
Placebo

I implore
Merck

Tough turkey tits
Ophelia :D

automatic complaint generators
Daeraug

superfluous rhetoric
Ice

to sugar-coat a turd
Leo

got on your moral high horse
Seeker

feelgood fuzzy
Leo

your explosive
barbizzle

yea w/e i just read books on programming and metal bands
lol gargen

we dumbasses cant understand the shit you post...
lmao ev, I really did laugh at that peace of text

geriatric fungus
Ophe, what does that mean

And now, on a more serious note:

Leo. From all the posts I have read, I do not sense spiritual peace in you.

always wondered about the kind of person who has to chop his essays up into bite size little pieces. What? You don't have enough attention span to write a real essay.

That sentence, does have any kindness in it. It was mean. People who are such "masters," such as yourself, are full of kindness. Thats why I feel that your wisdom is merely intelectual. It's such a simple argument, but to me it seems obvious.

Kindness. I don't sense good kindness from you, so in my eyes, you are not a noble figure. Religion, you are religious, is in promotion of kindness.

I thought of a wonderful idea for DV leo. It would be extremely appreciated if you would post a picture of yourself on the forum, for myself and other the other dreamviews members. I know that if I could see a single picture, then I could understand you so much better. A picture is worth a thousand words. A picture of you will help unveil the mask behind all of the intellect, to see the real person you are. If there is any way possible for you to get a picture up here, please I urge you to do so!

Ok later everyones

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by icedawg
Leo, I really can't believe you just resorted to calling me \"stupid\";Good luck.

P.S. I apologize for my gibes in regards to your lengthy posts.

I argued with you for an entire afternoon and you never were able to catch my point. this means you are either stubborn or stupid...

BUT BUT BUT BUT

Since you apologize for your 'gibes', I will be willing to take them as mere 'gibes' and not as insults as I had previously MISTAKENLY construed them. I'm am sorry for my misinterpretation of your intent. My sense of humor is sometimes out of kilter and I forget what is simply good fun.

And so ofcourse, you are not stupid -- there is too much testimony from your friends for me to long suppose you are stupid (everyone should have so many friends as yourself), so I can only suppose you are stubborn, but, then again, so am I, or this Battle would not have gone on for an entire week.

I do apologize for having sustained the hostilities so long. Perhaps later it should provide us with a good laugh.

Again, let us bury the hatchets and shake hands and commence a Peace that will last a thousand years.

[Aquanina]

Originally posted by icedawg
By the way, are you listening to yourself? Let me repeat for you: \"I was always right.\" Again...\"I was always right.\" Wow...I've never met someone who is always right before. Let me try to teach you, the teacher, something: sometimes, it's not the message you have to deliver, but how you deliver it that's most important.

:shock: :shock: :shock: !!!!!!!!

\"Dust my ears deceive me!!!\"

Once upon a time:

Originally posted by Aquanina+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Aquanina)</div>
And still you persist...
What will it take for you to admit that you are, in fact, wrong Ice? An eternity? [/b]

<!--QuoteBegin-Icedawg

hrm. alright, i'll give it a whirl. let's see here...(gimme a minute, i've never had to do this before.) ..... I'm wro... hmm... wro.... wro... damn, lemme start again. I'm wro...

wow. how do you guys do it? it's a good thing i'm always right, otherwise i could be in some trouble. speaking of which, i really should get myself on Jeopardy: oh man, i'd clean up! (ken jennings my ass.)

Sorry man but I couldn't resist you so walked right into that one. :D

[Leo Volont]

dear Nina,

We all better be careful with what we say if somebody is actually going to take the trouble to remember it.

[Aquanina]

Indeed.

[TheUnknown]

Originally posted by OpheliaBlue

You better take that back you geriatric fungus.

The man you just insulted is one of the kindest and most gracious human beings you will ever hope to meet. And being scarcely a quarter of your age, he is more than 4 times the man you could ever hope to dream of becoming. So rather than insulting him, why don't you try being a bit more like him.

Time to climb of your self-righteous hobby horse Leo...intellectually you may have an edge here and there, but socially and emotionally, you are monkey city baby.

Actually, I didn't want to have to say it, but yes.. that was partially directed at you. I do agree with you completley that Leo lacks people skills, and I also must say that he seems to bring the worst out of you especially. He has nothing to take back, what he inferred on my writing was true, the argument here is over the fact that Leo should try to stay inbounds on his topics, and the argument with Seeker over an author. The fact he doesn't like someone that you do should not be an excuse to let loose on him.. that goes for nesgirl, splash, and a few other people who are posting just to bash Leo. Its not helping, its only going to prolong this flamewar.

I don't think the argument between the two should have escalated to this in the first place, but since in Leo's mind, there is only black-and-white here, no grey area where "oh, we can let this slide."

Leo, why are you having to be so direct? I'm beginning to doubt you can win the argument here, because of the status of the people you are arguing with. I would have spent a little more time getting some backing here before tearing into people's beloved admins. Even if you are right, should they choose to refuse to listen to what you say, you really are not in the place to change it. I would hate to see a great mind leave over a simple argument. I'm asking you, let go. You can still keep your belief's and some people may gain from it, however you are doing hell to your reputation right now, and the minority of people backing you isn't enough to save your ass should the admins finally take action.

Seeker, icedawg.. you are in the best place right now for this. But, why the need to keep such an argument going with Leo. His persistance although annoying is somewhat admirable, considering the odds he's got in getting you guys to listen to something. I don't expect you to listen though... you don't need to, which I why Leo should give up this whole thing. Its futile at this point anyways... even if what he has to say was right, and everything you say is wrong and you knew it was wrong, I STILL won't expect you to listen.

Leo, you have a point and all, but you have no foundation here. Let it subside.. there will be other more important things. Time is running out, you should know that, more then anyone else here.

And this is all because people can't stand it when they are told what they do not want to hear. Fucking Hypocrites.

[onlysleeping]

I think it is important to respect everyones take on their experiences... even exaggerations... and misguided and misplaced words...
I especially think it is important to say what you feel...
And what you feel is up to you, not any of the moderators.

Language is the basis of all relationships and interactions... and it should not be limited or censored by any means....
Language, in essence, is art.... and art is an expression of the soul
Shall we not have different colors to represent the spectrum?
Let the words, which are free, escape from your mind and come from your heart.

Rules of Dreaming
:There are no rules, only imagined limitations of the potential of mind and spirit:
:Time is a product of the imagination:

So, what is the source of mind, spirit and imagination then?
You can't find one....
The Experience, Experienced, and Experiencer are indivisible because they arise from eachother.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by TheUnknown
Leo, you have a point and all, but you have no foundation here. Let it subside.. there will be other more important things. Time is running out, you should know that, more then anyone else here.
.

Look back a few posts.... I've apologized.

Now the ball is in Seeker's Court.

[Placebo]

For those who seemed to have missed it, Leo's apology:
Originally posted by Leo
I do apologize for having sustained the hostilities so long. Perhaps later it should provide us with a good laugh.

Again, let us bury the hatchets and shake hands and commence a Peace that will last a thousand years.

Thank you Leo ;)

What does still bother me about resolving it this way (ie let it slide) - do you still remain under the belief that the moderation here is evil, and we have no freedom of speech?
If so, then none of this has been to any advantage, and the seed of dissent will remain...

PS: I'm not sure if you read my last post in reply to your scathing remark on my inability to write an essay - I'd have liked you to have read it. I posted it immediately before you posted again, so I fear you missed it :)

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Placebo
For those who seemed to have missed it, Leo's apology:


Thank you Leo ;)

What does still bother me about resolving it this way (ie let it slide) - do you still remain under the belief that the moderation here is evil, and we have no freedom of speech?
If so, then none of this has been to any advantage, and the seed of dissent will remain...

PS: I'm not sure if you read my last post in reply to your scathing remark on my inability to write an essay - I'd have liked you to have read it. I posted it immediately before you posted again, so I fear you missed it :)

Hmmmmm. Let's look back.

No, I can't remember you being one of the good faith brokers of peace, so perhaps you should be discrete and just walk away and leave well enough alone.

[Placebo]

Originally posted by Leo Volont
No, I can't remember you being one of the good faith brokers of peace, so perhaps you should be discrete and just walk away and leave well enough alone.
Huh? And I suppose you are? If you did bother to look back I actually apologised. Whatever...

[Kaniaz]

(Well this is a great start to that 1000 years peace).

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Kaniaz
(Well this is a great start to that 1000 years peace).

Well, it actually was...

Somebody wanted to stir up the poop again, and I suggested he not, and so he desisted. It worked out rather well.

And now it appears that you now want to take your turn at stirring up the Poop.

You know, may I suggest that if you want trouble, you be creative enough to stir up some fresh trouble of your own, and not pry into other people's affairs in order to do it. I would have thought that after a week we'd all be rather tired of this by now.

[Placebo]

Originally posted by Leo Volont


Well, it actually was...

Somebody wanted to stir up the poop again, and I suggested he not, and so he desisted. It worked out rather well.

And now it appears that you now want to take your turn at stirring up the Poop.

You know, may I suggest that if you want trouble, you be creative enough to stir up some fresh trouble of your own, and not pry into other people's affairs in order to do it. I would have thought that after a week we'd all be rather tired of this by now.
I simply wanted to point you to my previous APOLOGY, and indicate my concerns.
Is this considered stirring up the poop to you?

PS: I don't see how your strategy had worked either - I had not 'desisted'

[EDIT]
I would have thought that after a week we'd all be rather tired of this by now[/b]
When we can safely RESOLVE the issue, then I'll be tired of it. Remember that you stirred up the poop in the first place, and we would like to ensure everyone is happy again.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Placebo

When we can safely RESOLVE the issue, then I'll be tired of it. Remember that you stirred up the poop in the first place, and we would like to ensure everyone is happy again.

So, what is your point? I thought this was between myself and Seeker. When did you become a party?

As far as I can recall, TheUnknown was the only person to step in as an Honest Broker for Peace (publically, that is... Nesgirl did some behind the scenes negotiating.... I believe she Adopted me and was willing to vouch for my future good behavior. You see, not everybody was so full of your 'friendly' malice and 'well meaning' condemnations ).

Anyway, it would do TheUnknown some justice and honor to briefly examine HIS role in all of this. If Peace came from any single person, publically, it came from him. How? Because he was willing to see my side of it, consistently and thoroughly. Even after I insisted that he move a bit more in my direction, I was honestly surprised that he actually did! The man should be working for the U.N.

But all I remember from you was a list in which you examined every sentence I ever wrote in my life and found something wrong with each single one of them, while insisting the Seeker would certainly have been above any such error, confusion or stupidity. My, I thought, I do hope you look good in BROWN.

Honestly, nothing you wrote was significant enough to require an apology for. It is as though you suppose somebody might have remembered anything you said.

But in the interests of peace, if you want some closure, then fine, "I accept your apology, and would like to extend my hand in friendship". Good? Now lets find some Post where we can argue like gentlemen.

[OpheliaBlue]

Originally posted by Leo Volont
You know, may I suggest that if you want trouble, you be creative enough to stir up some fresh trouble of your own, and not pry into other people's affairs in order to do it. I would have thought that after a week we'd all be rather tired of this by now.
AHHHHHHHHHHHH you make it sound like some big "private matter" but you're just whining on a public forum in view of 100s of users.

And at least Kaniaz's brand of trouble is funny and has a point. Yours is just sad. And stinky.

ps. You're always bitching that people pick apart your posts. that they only criticise the poop and don't mention any good points you make. Well I think it's because you invalidate any good intentions you may have had in the beginning by being a cantankerous, crotchety old meany now. Honey vs vinegar baby. I don't think Jesus would have gotten as far if he farted in everyone's face daily. Quote Elijah or whatever all you want, I seem to remember something else about "cheek-turning". I bet you don't even have the decency to turn yours. Not in a million billion gazillion years. Some Prophet. =/

[Seeker]

Leo, I applaud you and also wish to appologize.

This whole incident has gone on for much longer that I really liked. Let's all move onward with the business of thie forum.

I hope this can be seen as a lesson by everyone that reads it. When two strong personalities come into conflict, the effects are mighty and far reaching.

1000 years of peace? I will be estatic with 1000 minutes of peace. ;)

[icedawg]

Originally posted by Aquanina+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Aquanina)</div>Sorry man but I couldn't resist you so walked right into that one.[/b]

Thanks Nina; that was really thoughtful of you to bring up now. Of course, you and everyone else KNEW I was kidding, since I routinely joke around just like that; Leo is not.

<!--QuoteBegin-Leo Volont
I argued with you for an entire afternoon and you never were able to catch my point. this means you are either stubborn or stupid...

I completely disagree; I understand everything you're asking for. Other than the material relevant to Seeker:

1. You want moderation removed because of inevitable gross misuse of power;
2. You want absolute freedom of speech to reign here because it is an undeniable right;
3. You want liars censored because you fear they could eventually eviscerate any credibility lucid dreaming and related discussions may have.

Unfortunately, item #3 on your list comes in direct conflict with numbers 1 and 2, and you know that, which leads me to believe you just like stirring up trouble. Also, I understand all three points, and agree with all of them, but 1. I recognize the need for moderation--much like law enforcement in the real world; 2. freedom of speech already exists here; 3. we do what we can to protect members from those just causing trouble.

Also, I could argue just as easily--and you know this--that every good point I brought up you completely ignored. For instance:

1. First off, I suggested you contact me in regards to specific examples of moderators abusing their powers--since you've been clear that it's moderatorS and not an isolated case--and you have not;
2. I also asked for specific examples in regards to moderators endorsing and perpetuating exaggeration by users--and you suggested this was ongoing in regards to how you worded it--but you provided me with none;
3. I asked that you contact me to let me know which users are currently disseminating falsehoods and you have not;
4. You ignored the fact that freedom of speech really does exist here;
5. You ignored--or failed to acknowledge--my efforts in writing a site that insists a practical view of lucid dreaming, which aims to ensure lucid dreaming is received in a credible way; in fact, I don't think it's even occurred to you that I too worry a great deal about the credibility of discussions going on here being emasculated, which is why the main site was written with great care;
6. You ignored my question about what would happen if moderators were removed, in regards to persistent liars;
7. You ignored my question in regards to how other users would feel about posting here if they constantly saw moderators censoring users for 'fibbing';
8. You touched on my concerns regarding an inherent slippery-slope with policing the honesty of users, but disappointedly not at all in an adequate or convincing way;
9. You claim I'm illogical, while you turn a blind eye to the aforementioned contradictions in your wishes for this site;
10. You ignored my point about the moderators here still being able to perform the tasks associated with their jobs very well, despite discord in regards to ideologies you feel they should share with you;
11. You missed my point completely about your banishments from other forums: you seemed to think it was a question of right or wrong, but really, it's about behaviour, consideration for others, and kindness;
12. You ignored my point in regards to this being a privately owned forum, thus freedom of speech does not necessarily have to exist here;
13. You ignored my position about wanting this forum to have a unique presence, thus necessarily insisting that religious topics be kept within the proper forums;
14. You ignored my point about how other users would feel if they had to sift through piles of irrelevant posts to find the information they were looking for (i.e. if topics were not placed in their proper forums) and the detrimental effect that would have on this forum's intended purpose of being a repository for lucid dreaming information;
15. You completely ignored the fact that much of what you're arguing is moot because you clicked the link that says "I AGREE TO THESE TERMS"--in regards to our discretion to move, delete, etc. topics--to register here!
16. What saddens me most, though, is you ignored the one piece of truly good advice I had to give...let me repeat it here:

Sometimes, it's not the message you have to deliver, but how you deliver it that's most important. The message itself loses its merit if it's delivered in such a way that it turns its audience away. Perhaps you should reflect on all the forums you've been ostracized from, and wonder if maybe, just maybe, even if you were right, you managed to convince others that you were wrong. What good is a message if it always falls on deaf ears? Perhaps there's more than one way to achieve your goals.

Thus, if I am guilty of ignoring your points, you are just as guilty my friend. Overall, this really just feels like a big game to me. Instead of taking into consideration any of the above, you took the easy way out and resorted to calling me stupid. I sense overall your aim here is to get yourself banished, since somehow that will validate your efforts--and once again allow you to assert that you are always right and everyone else is wrong--and you can leave, feeling completely satisfied that you "tried to give us your message, but we refused to listen." Well, I won't make it that easy for you, Leo; you're not going to be banned.

Anyway, we had our fun, but I think it's time to wrap up this discussion now, even though I'm sure you're still convinced I don't comprehend at all what you're saying. Again what saddens me most, and has rendered me unwilling to continue this discussion, is that for a 60 year old man, you've acquired so little wisdom in your years...so little kindness...so little understanding of how the people around you feel and operate and react. Yes, you're intelligent, but many of us here are already classified as "gifted," so I would have hoped you'd bring more to us than simply intelligence; I guess I just expected more from a man who purports to be a Veteran of Knowledge and Truth. Perhaps there's more here that we can give to you. Perhaps some of the kindness of our users can rub off on you, and you can begin to understand how to effectively communicate with people, since communication involves the understanding and acceptance of your messages, as well as taking into account how you will be received.

I'm going to close this topic in hopes that we can just start anew. Let's just sit back and see what the next few weeks bring: maybe, just maybe, you can find a way to take item #16 to heart.

[Placebo]

Leo, I was apologising about the very thing you are being scathing about.
Nevertheless, I guess I'm happy if things can settle for now.

I thought this was between myself and Seeker. When did you become a party?[/b]
The moment you dragged it out into the open, it was no longer a personal issue between only you and Seeker
But since it seems to be settled, this is water under the bridge...