Is Control a Good Thing?

[Seeker]

A good friend made a suggestion to me before Christmas. He suggested that maybe as part of my lucid dreaming experience, I should not try to exercise too much control in my dreams. He suggested keeping it to a minimum and just go with the flow and see how the adventure unfolds. See what you can learn from them.

I’ve been setting aside a number of my lucid dreams to do just that and am somewhat amazed by the results.

Take my latest dream for example The Healing Waters (http://dreamviews.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1681)
. If I had chosen to exercise control and change this dream, I would have missed out on a truly wonderful experience. One I might add that my soul desperately needed.

So what to all of you think? I would like to hear some opinions from everyone. That includes noobies as well as all the old timers.

[ShadowNightWing]

I agree with you on that seeker Too much control can alter vital things in regards to what you really need to get from your dreams. I try to keep mine to a minimal also just so that I can get that extra whatever from my dreams. I guess that goes with the waking world also if you knew exactly what was in store for you around the corner then how could you learn, or gain a significant amount of wisdom from any event that unfolds. So I say its best to go with the flow! :goodjob2:

[Lucius]

I too am not a fan of practising out control in a dream. Of course it at first depends what you believe of course..

Do you believe in the dreamworld as the astral plane? An actual level of existance? A second reality? Another plane?
Or do you see it as your own mind, nothign more, is it all up your head? Can you do anything you want? Are there no more laws?

The second one is not a very respectful attitude I think but of course not everybody believes the same and that should be respected aswell, I gues you cant respect something you do not believe in, or can you? But here is what I believe:

The dreamworld is not just up your head, it is that actual level of existance we call the astral plane. And this world, is equal to our own world. As are all planes. And it should be equally respected as the pshysical plane too. If you would not go ona killing spree in the pshysical then you should not in the astral, if you dont have sex with anybody you like i the pshysical you dont in the astral..

Now this is of course the moral part, which is the first halve of it all..there are certain things that are wrong, and if you believe the astral is real, then you dont do them.

Second comes in the more important thing, balance, the greater balance. The astral is a place stil untouched by the inbalance of human forces, of souls. It runs on a balance of dark and light as does everything. For every dark demon there is a light spirit to make up for it. They cannot exist without eachother, but thats besides the point..when we start practicing out control out there over in the astral..we start disturbting this balance..
would you like it if your own world would be manipulated? Woud you like it an alien came and controled your mind or changed your house into a flame of fire or ran over you with a truck or shot you for hsi own amusement? Would you like if your hometown suddenly turned into a battle field just because the alien wishes to live out his fantasies? I dont think so..

Now you might say oh well, its just a little..well what if hunderd thousands would trash one empty can on the streets everyday..thats a whole lotta cans on the street if you ask me. What if all those people shot one animal everyday..what if..certainly that disturbs the balance..

All planes, including the astral live on this balance..and if you go and disturb it your not doing somethign right..

Now, another reason..acting natural brings the most good things to you..acting natural brings you the best things..makes you find the good things..the astral hides the good things from persons that upset the balance..but if you just naturally go and take a walk who knows what you might find..or who you might meet..if you just take it natural, act natural then much better and magnificent things will come to you...its the only way to interact with the astral, else it will stuck you in your little bubble..

So it means control must be sacrificed to make any kind of progress, meet any kinds of spirits..see the real thing. Not everybody believes what Im saying I know that..but thats the way I see it..and it brought me more then any kind of control could ever bring me. And I wouldnt trade that for the world..

The onyl kind of control that is ok is personal control, such as flying or chi manipulation..certain sorts of magic..as long as it comes from yourself and doesnt upset that balance...so Im voting little control..but I tend to no control, I avoid it.

[Lowercase Society]

uh...whats sliced bread?! :hrm:

[A Lost Soul]

An important thing to remember is this: You must be experienced enough to know the difference between when you are walking the Dreaming and when you are simply in a dream of your own making. And there is a difference. The Dreaming is a world in and of itself. A dream is simply that—a dream. Perhaps designed to show you something, or just to entertain you as you sleep. Who knows?

Control is ok, but not essential to lucid dreaming. As I just mentioned, the Dreaming is another world, akin to our own but vastly different. Most of my personal experiences have dealt with the manipulation of dreamworld energies. I am not afraid to use my power there, but I try not to go overboard. Certain things must be respected. The nature of the Dreaming is one of these things. Going into the Dreaming with the intention of tyranny is no different then, say, an alien species with knowledge and power well beyond our own landing on our planet and taking over. It sounds silly, I know, but it’s the closest analogy I can come up with after a long night at work.

For the most part, I appear wherever I am going to appear and I simply walk the Dreaming/Astral (or fly, as the case may be) and learn whatever I can learn, see whatever I can see for whatever duration of time that I’m there. When necessary, I won’t hesitate to use my power as a dreamer to defend myself or another. I have morphed objects into other objects (for example, I once turned a hotdog into a cookie--I hate hotdogs). I have met countless beings; good, evil, and neutral and not once have I tried to demonstrate any sort of control over them. As far as I’m concerned, they are beings just like me and I have no right to use my power like that. To be honest, I doubt it’s possible anyway unless they are extremely weak-spirited or a dream construct, which are supposedly creations of your own mind (though given my experiences, I question that).

I have to slightly disagree with Lucius. (Sorry, sweetie! :-P) From what I’ve seen, I do believe that the astral is built on balance, just like our waking world is. However, it is possible for that balance to be slightly tilted one way or the other. Occasionally, an extra evil is created without a good to compensate. I’ve met some nasties in the Dreaming, and I have no qualms at all about blowing them away. Trust me, when some dark and evil thing is threatening you, chances are you’re not thinking of balance.

Anyway, control is good to a degree. I’ll reiterate: one of the most important things is experience and knowing the difference between a regular, run-of-the-mill dream and a high lucidity dreamwalking experience. That way, you won't inadvertently get yourself into trouble.

[Lowercase Society]

Control, if i could have my vote back, i would choose the 2nd one, my eyes are open now.
As i dont have ultimate expirience in lucidity, and i am not as far 'down the rabbit hole' as some of you, my LD's and normal dreams haven't been as.......eventful?

Your right, its important to have some control, to be lucid, but also to follow the normal path of the dream, obviously its there for a reason. There is also the arguement that dreams are nothing but your mind, and spurts of energy, in forms of immagery. So if this were the case, then i think full control would be great.

In my dreams now, im fighting to actually gain lucidity, as it has been a month :cry: We shall see, we shall percieve.

hey that sounded cool!
oh well, My vote goes from #1 to #2 as i obviously was indecisive. now i am sure. ;)

[CocoDan]

I can't yet answer for few lucid dreams I have had.
More frequent reality check I must.

[Seeker]

Six voters so far. Anyone else with opinions?

[nerve]

I'm not voting. you can experience some amazing or fun things without trying to conrtol things, but you could have just as much fun with some control. what I mean is...sometimes control is good, like Lost Soul said she was sitting there with a hotdog but doesn't like them. what's she gonna do? turn it into a cookie. I think...it really all depends on..wether or not you think the dreamworld is a whole nother plane. I...personally believe it's in your head. but before you form an angry mob, I am starting to believe otherwise. basically...I'm on the fence here. along with alot of other things...just need some time to study and find things out for myself yes?

[KalmaH]

I voted for control. Total control. I have only achieved it once, but I am hooked.

[CT]

If I ever run out of Ideas of what to do in my dreams, I think I'll go along with whatever strange story my subconcious will have in store for me.

But my first few LD's will be definetly under some strict controll ^^

[Ev]

Well, I vote for control.
By control I mean - you simply replace actions of your subconsciousness with your actions.
Control is a good thing.

[Howie]

I too believe in control. But not total control. I have had several nightmares that I changed for the better. Which control seems to be an obvious advantage. But I think our sub-concious needs to take its own path . I agree with seeker. Let our subconcius tell us somthing we can't figure out. Let the dream world take shape around your conciois eyes and learn. If we were to exercise complete control we might as well be awake.

[CocoDan]

Total control, unless it's going somewhere. My dreams don't get that special. :(

[Blulanou42]

I say that no cotrol is the same as ALL control.

When one gains the ultimate control of dreaming, one gains clairity.
This clairity can set a soul down 2 paths. If one harnesses clairity and attempts to control every aspect of dreaming, one becomes their own illusion. However, if one gains total control and then LEAVES it behind, they are very wise indeed, for no person knows what is best for themselves, we merely think we know.

I no longer lucid I feel no need to I have done everything I could imagine and now I feel no need to force my will upon myself.

True clairity is to know that clairity is itself YOUr own illusion. None of us know the right way of the universe! No one can know! :o

Total control and No control do become the same for those of us who transcend whatever the first dreaming stage is.

BEACAUSE

When one controls ALL the only way to do so is by thinking (dreaming) of NOTHING. All = Nothing. Tao = Te.

When one dreams all that can be dreamed all that is left are infinite expanses of potential nothing! Infinite beautiful flowing nothing! ALL 0!

I vote no control...but one has to have SOME control to reach this point.

[WhiteGhost]

If I try to exert too much control I always wake up. In fact I can't become fully aware that I'm dreaming and stay asleep. I have to be sort of semi-aware that I'm dreaming.

[Serinanth]

Let it unfold to you. A god can do anything sure... but what do you learn? How do you deal with adverse events, blissfull events... You will learn who you are...

I am the memory of all that has passed

I can see who I have become from all these past learnings if I stay in controll of only myself. Sure you can learn to bend the laws of the dream world... but there is cost to you, its not just some cartoon, its real.

And you are just a small part of something that is incredibly great!

Let yourself learn!!! find out who you are... test your mettle, see how far you can push you focus and how long you can let go, all of us wish to controll.. its a human desire to be in controll of all our situations... but we are not the only ones out there... there are others that wish the same...

Go and find out who you are I say... stop hiding...stop letting yourelf beleive that you are a god... your not... none of us are, you will learn much more of yourself in conflict than you will in stagnation...

[WerBurN]

i always try very hard not to control, but i always have alot of control in my dreams, and the general story of whats going on usually sucks so...

[Blulanou42]

the most effective control
is letting go
dreams and memories like ripples
in the water of your mind

eternity is inside us all, we all remember it
everyone has the same story, everyone the same thoughts
control fate
fate controls you

the illusion of control is desire, patterns of desire are idols before the
divine infinity

[ShadowNightWing]

Originally posted by Blulanou42
the most effective control
is letting go
dreams and memories like ripples
in the water of your mind

eternity is inside us all, we all remember it
everyone has the same story, everyone the same thoughts
control fate
fate controls you

the illusion of control is desire, patterns of desire are idols before the
divine infinity

Blulanou I must say you are a very Deep DEEP! Individual.

[Tjhands]

Here's my two cents worth *cha-ching!!*...........

People may argue that too much control in dreams is a bad thing because it limits the role that your hungry subconcious mind can play, thus preventing you from keeping an even keel or balance between concious and subconsious "selfs."
Maybe I shouldn't assume that everyone is like I am, but even in my most confident lucid dreams, I NEVER, EVER have 100% control. You all know what I'm talking about.....things appear in our dreams (objects, people, scenery, etc.) that we didn't plan on. I mean, nobody starts a lucid dream in a whitewashed world, void of EVERYTHING.....no surroundings at all.
It's our subconcious minds that set the scene for us, and introduce actors and props into the play. I think that the two halves of our selves DO communicate and work in tandem, even in a lucid dream.

I guess that's the looooong way of saying "I vote for total control," even though I doubt anyone has ever had a lucid dream in which they were consiously in charge of ALL details.

[Blulanou42]

i have...
meh, it's not all that cool.
i sorta get board

all that nothingness, in expanse around you
you can wield it to your every whim and desire
boundless infinities in the palm of your hand changing with every thought
then the objects you create start to spin
they start to be
but
they start to un-be

the objects created grow decay die birth grow decay die
over and over and over

till there is no difference
and your lives unfold before you
as though they were the lives of all you could imagine

transcending control, releasing one's desires, knowing clairity yet refusing it...

that is where true lucidity begins in sleep
that is where it starts to become the waking mind

control sucks, har har !

[42]

I voted for some control. It is really no fun to control everything in a dream. It's kinda like a kid growing up with parents who give him everything he wants. Eventually he becomes bored with everything. It is certainly fun to bend rules once in a while. I also find that if I try to exert to much control I almost always wake up immediately. Like even flying too fast or too high. I really agree with Blu as far as desires being idols. If we didn't have all these desires all the time, we could be at peace and see things more subjectively thus learning more from any experience. My favorite types of dreams are when the dream is very fantastical and I am very aware that it is a dream but don't choose to do anything but react in that situation. I think Seri is right on in saying that those are times when you learn the most about yourself. And I think most of the time, you can learn more in dreams because you subconsciously put yourself in more extreme situations and circumstances. Daily life is not very extreme for most. At least most of the time. I notice that when I get in a rut in life (just do the same things every day) my dreams are usually mundane. I have more extreme dreams when I try to change something about myself. Always. And that's a good time to learn about yourself - as you're changing. Probably the best time to seek understanding.

[Uriel]

It's probably a bit early for me to be making decisions like this, but I voted "Some control."

I'd like to add an asterisk to that, though. I don't think total control is wrong, nor do I think choosing not to control anything is wrong. I think everyone needs to make the best decision for themselves. I think a lot of lucid dreamers (like myself) are fascinated by the thought of total control, and it's not a bad thing. They just need to get this out of their system before moving onto the more important matters of exploring their subconscious, or possibly the astral. The astral plane is something I know zip about, having no personal experience there. If I ever find myself there it would be wrong to try and exert control over anything.

The most important control is that which you have over yourself.

[Lucius]

The things I reached..the things I found..by not controlling..

I could not live without anymore, you miss so much..you shall never live up to the full potential of the miracle of the everything and the astral plane as long as you remain in control of that what you cannot control.

[Seeker]

Wow, this thread has lasted longer than I could even have hoped for. I do advocate some control, and some letting go of control.
It's all about balance. I currently divide my lucid time as follows:

1/3 - Working on dreamwalking/scaping (light control)
1/3 - Working on my experiments (high control)
1/3 - Exploring (no control)

[Mew151]

I think the dream world is it's own reality. The DC's are the regular citizens. You are the god though

[WILDinitall]

i really like to watch the adventure, but since LDs are really rare for me i always try to exhibit as much control as i can, namely none.

[Mew151]

Of course it's a good thing. You can stop your nightmares, practice fire drills, and...hehe.... practice something....

[Walms]

I say control is the best thing, since I use it for canceling my control of the dream so the adventure can continue lol

[Echoes]

One of the things that make dreams so amazing is that our thought process is so radically different in them. This is a beautiful thing to behold, and often if you just sit back and relax some of the most stunning thoughts will make themselves apparent. Ideas you never could have concieved in waking life. So I think is a bit of a waste of the dreamstate to exicut TOTAL control, which boxes you in to thinking i the manner you always do....Boring!!!

[AlexLou]

Um, I'm not gonna vote. I like variety. It's fun to take complete control, but it's also fun to sit back and be more passive. We have so many dreams, why not do it all?

[archdreamer]

Control is great. Better to have it and not use it, than not to have it at all.

[ChaybaChayba]

Being able to control your level of control, being able to let yourself go with the flow is also control. So yeah, control ftw...

[The Cusp]

A good friend made a suggestion to me before Christmas. He suggested that maybe as part of my lucid dreaming experience, I should not try to exercise too much control in my dreams. He suggested keeping it to a minimum and just go with the flow and see how the adventure unfolds. See what you can learn from them.

That's just being plain lazy. Every now and then you hear a rumor about some guy who got so good at controlling his dreams that it wasn't fun anymore so he had to stop. Those people are lying.

You may gain greater control, but that just opens up new challenges and possibilities. It never gets boring, it never gets too easy, and the more control you have, the more there is to do.

[ninja9578]

I like controlling dreams sometimes, but other times I just go with the flow so I think control is fun sometimes, but not other times.

[Valwen]

Wow this thread was brought from the grave, notice the over-4-year difference between seeker's post and the next one? It's interesting seeing who the big minds were back then and who they are now.

[N@vi]

I love dreamcontrol, it opens up so many possibilities - so much you can do, so much you can see, so many people you can visit...! It's amazing what it provides you, the world's literally in your hands. ^^
The only thing that could be considered as bad on it is, that the subconscious meaning of your dream could go missing, since you do everything by yourself and with full awareness.

Once again it's got advantages and disadvantages, but in general I think it's a very great thing, so I'll join the statement:
"It's better to have it and not use it, than not to have it at all."

[Delilah]

Reality has enough restrictions! either because I'm physically incapable, because there are consequences for my actions, or because people won't co-operate with me. Dreams are a place where I can do anything I want, I can experience the things I know I'll never get to experience in real life. I want full control.

[lagunagirl]

referring to lucius's and A Lost Soul's points, I would have to say that I'm a little in between what you two were saying and what some others may say about dreams being no more than all in your head. here's my view:
Dreams are in your mind. They're not a different dimension or anything. You create them from images in your mind. And there's science to prove that.
But...
I dont think that's all a dream is. obviously, there's a very big difference between a lucid dream and non-lucid dream. A bigger difference than simply knowing you're dreaming. When you experience a lucid dream, it's on the same thought level as real life. it's concious. This makes it just as real as real life itself. You're concious, you can taste and see and smell and feel, you can control your actions and thoughts. You're just doing it somewhere besides a physical world. But things dont have to be physical to be real. Courage, curiosity, friendship, those kinds of things are real. But just because you can't feel them and touch them in the reality we live in doesn't mean they're not real. Dreams are pure thought. They're perception, but if you experience reality in your perception, that would have to mean that dreams are no less than a subjective reality. Just like one of my favorite quotes from waking life "They say dreams are only real as long as they last. But couldn't you say the same thing about real life?"
I don't believe in any of the astral plane, alternate reality, physical real world ideas. But I do believe that it can very much seem like that at times when a dream seems so real. Then they "dream share" and think even more that it's a different dimension. But the thing that happens is our minds can sometimes be connected to other peoples'. It's not impossible to have the same dream as someone else. Everyone has an aura and wave frequencies, and when two people become close to one another, then their wave frequencies can become close as well, and then your thoughts start to intermix and you can just kind of tell what they're thinking (like when newly married couples will finish eachothers sentances all the time) but on a subconcious level. Which is why it shows up in dreams. So when a lucid dream becomes as real as life itself and then someone you know in real life happens to have the same dream as you, you both end up thinking that you must have been in some alternate reality together. I guess it's pretty darn close, cause it's a reality inside your own minds, but it's not a different dimension or anything.


whew, now that I got that cleared up with myself. I'll get back on topic.
control is a very good thing. Without it, a lot of the entire idea of lucid dreaming seems pointless. What's the point of knowing that you're dreaming if you're not going to use your control to do something amazing that you could never do in real life. but... I do believe that you can exercise control while following the plot of a dream. When lucid, a lot of what poeple think is "oh that's cool, I dont have to follow my dream and I can do whatever I want"
but you can still follow along with your dream and go with the flow while using control. Just dont control the situation or the scenery or the DCs. Just control your own abilities, such as flying. I mean, you can go with the flow and have an amazing experience that your subconcious creates, but instead of walking across that street, why not fly?
Control is good, but I do agree very much that going with the flow of the dream can lead to amazing experiences as well, which I have found out on person experience.

[Shift]

I'm not gonna read through this whole thing so I hope that I don't just repeat anything people have already said.

I personally think people should do whatever they want in lucids. If you need to exercise control to complete a dream task, I am all for it. If you don't have a particular task, or are in an interesting scenario, I'd follow along. If you want to just go with the flow, do it. I don't think there is any BEST way to have a lucid dream. Different people want different things out of it. Even a single person wants different things out of different lucids. I think it simply depends on the dream itself!

I know that Billybob wrote something about this in one of his tutorials that I thought was very wise about the types of dream control. I'm sure you've read it but maybe want a refresher, and for those who haven't I'd recommend it http://www.dreamviews.com/community/showthread.php?t=38954&highlight=control

Also LaBerge did in EWOLD:
Q. Since I believe that dreams are messages from the unconscious mind, I am afraid that consciously controlling my dreams would interfere with this important process and deprive me of the benefits of dream interpretation.
A. As chapter 5 will explain, dreams are not letters from the unconscious mind, but experiences created through the interactions of the unconscious and conscious mind. In dreams, more conscious knowledge is available to our conscious experience. However, the dream is not at all the exclusive realm of the unconscious mind. If it were, people would never remember their dreams, because we do not have waking access to what is not conscious.
The person, or dream ego, that we experience being in the dream is the same as our waking consciousness. It constantly influences the events of the dream through its expectations and biases, just as it does in waking life. The essential difference in the lucid dream is that the ego is aware that the experience is a dream. This allows the ego much more freedom of choice and creative responsibility to find the best way to act in the dream. (page 19, Preparation for Learning Lucid Dreaming)

Also he wrote, "A few nights later, I had the first lucid dream I remember since the serial adventure dreams I had when I was five years old. In the dream:
It was snowing gently. I was alone on the rooftop of the world, climbing K2. As I made my way upward through the steeply drifting snow, I was astonished to notice my arms were bare: I was wearing a short-sleeved shirt, hardly proper dress for climbing the second highest mountain in the world! I realized at once that the explanation was that I was dreaming! I was so delighted that I jumped off the mountain and began to fly away, but the dream faded and I awoke.
I interpreted the dream as suggesting that I wasn't yet prepared for the rigors of Tibetan dream yoga. But it was also a starting point, and I continued to have lucid dreams occasionally for eight years before I began to cultivate lucid dreaming in earnest. Incidentally, my impulsive behavior when I became lucid is typical of beginners. If I were to have such a dream now, I would not precipitously jump off the mountain. Instead, I would fly to the top of the mountain and find out if I was climbing it for any reason besides "because it was there." (page 47)

[ray]

i only exercise total control when i have a very specific task i want to do such as the task of the month or things like that. i would say only about five percent of my lucid dreams i have had total control. i choose not to control them because i find normal dreams to be more interesting, exciting and more restful.i have found making yourself do things or controlling your dreams doesn't give you as good as a rest at night as normal dreams do.i usually become lucid but i don't change anything in my dream and i just go with the flow watching from the side or occasionally as a character.

[Licity]

I know that Billybob wrote something about this in one of his tutorials that I thought was very wise about the types of dream control. I'm sure you've read it but maybe want a refresher, and for those who haven't I'd recommend it http://www.dreamviews.com/community/showthread.php?t=38954&highlight=control


Thanks for linking to that tutorial, the passive control part sums up my thoughts on the matter. Once I start having more lucid dreams, passive control is the way to go. Usually it can be cool to see what your mind can come up with when you don't consciously keep it in check. I see it more than enough in normal dreams, so it might be cool to try and make sense of normal dream stuff when I know I'm dreaming.

I'm not going to be as cautious about forced control as most might me, REM periods only last so long, and I don't want to spend all of it coming up with clever ways to make something happen.

[Schmaven]

Whenever I try to completely change my dream through total control, the result is always me waking up. The longest lucid dreams I've had have been ones where I've had control, but didn't change the course of the dream (besides the random fireball or telekinesis). There could be a correlation here, or I could just be inexperienced at dream control and need more practice. Whichever the case, right now, I get longer lucids when I keep my interference to a minimum.

[Shift]

Thanks for linking to that tutorial, the passive control part sums up my thoughts on the matter. Once I start having more lucid dreams, passive control is the way to go. Usually it can be cool to see what your mind can come up with when you don't consciously keep it in check. I see it more than enough in normal dreams, so it might be cool to try and make sense of normal dream stuff when I know I'm dreaming.

I'm not going to be as cautious about forced control as most might me, REM periods only last so long, and I don't want to spend all of it coming up with clever ways to make something happen.

My pleasure! Just glad to help out! And I think that tutorial is brilliant! And ya, I know what you mean. I think once I've perfected LDing, I'll stop trying to control everything. I know I will never stop flying :tongue:

[Sylph]

I am for some control in the sense that there are some places I'd like to go to and some people (most of them fictional) I'd like to meet, apart from normaly controling my actions\decisions.
Other than that, I think it would kill a lot of the wonder that's part of dreaming. If you control everything all the time, you never get to be surprised and find things that are totally new and unexpected. Stuff that you would not counsciously create (whether awake or sleeping) would be lost.

[Schmaven]

I am all for passive control over dreams. If you're creative enough, you can still do anything you want. That tutorial was exactly what I needed to find.