Another Huge GOD Bash

[Awaken4e1]

O’ Boy, here I go again,

First, it is a fundamentally inherent trait, in graphed into the psyche of hued-man kind to question everything. That is how as (hued-mans) learn. That is the reason for the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. (God didn’t just put it there for looks.) No man can convince another of a spiritual thing; it must be revealed by the spirit itself. Logic can’t do it, Intellect alone can’t do it. So we are ultimately set alone to make up our own mind and heart about any given matter of supernatural origin. Cause if you aren’t open to the spirit, no man can open you to it. It is the common response of the intellectual to dismiss God entirely because no one can convince him/her of his existence without physical evidence. So, as we run-a-round this globe arguing about weather he exists or not, he as a people in full obedience to his plan, (fulfilling the Word in this world to save it from its own shortsightedness) as the carnal world just goes on about its business.

P.S. You can’t wrap your mind around something that has no end or beginning

The Rev

[Placebo]

Actually, the name 'human' has nothing to do with hues at all.
The word "human" is from humanus, the adjectival form of homo. The word homo is simply the Latin for "person", chosen originally by Carolus Linnaeus in his classificatory system.
And of course our species is named Homo Sapiens in full.

Nothing to do with colours or transitions

[InTheMoment]

Originally posted by Awaken4e1

First, it is a fundamentally inherent trait, in graphed into the psyche of hued-man kind to question everything.
Consciousness, coupled with a natural compulsion towards survival, equals the tendency to believe in a supernatural being that can grant us a supernatural transcendency from our physical forms.

Thank goodness for our "fundamentally inherent trait" to question everything, else we would still be stuck in the Dark Ages.

[Tsen]

Originally posted by Awaken4e1
Logic can’t do it

I'm not even going to start on this.

[bradybaker]

Originally posted by kimpossible
I don't necessarily buy that either.

I'm willing to go with Potential and eventual entropy of Potential based on Chaos Theory or similar extension to thermodynamics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekpyrotic

[Manifold Dream]

This book im reading now called Manifold Orgin by Stephen Baxter talks alot about evolution and the main character said somthing in it that I find very true.

"Religion is like a bargain, you trade your time and a cut of your paycheck for the freedom from fear of death" "And possibly its not a bad bargain"

I know it wasnt worded exactly like that, but you get the main idea.

[kimpossible]

Originally posted by bradybaker


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekpyrotic

Yeah, as far as cosmology goes - I'm willing to entertain the Ekpyrotic Scenario...

[Tsen]

Well that was a lot of nothing. So you prayed. And got some 'revelation' that involved nothing to make anybody but yourself determine it as anything more than JUST a dream. That led you to post here and say that us science geeks are all going to come crawling back to religion someday. In short, you have no evidence why, no reason for us to do so now, and pretty much no argument whatsoever. Yeah. Be sure not to trip over your own feet.

And Brady--I could agree with that theory as well. Seems logical, maybe I'll have time later to finish reading all the fine print.

[dreamtamer007]

Originally posted by Tsen
Well that was a lot of nothing. *So you prayed. *And got some 'revelation' that involved nothing to make anybody but yourself determine it as anything more than JUST a dream. *That led you to post here and say that us science geeks are all going to come crawling back to religion someday. *In short, you have no evidence why, no reason for us to do so now, and pretty much no argument whatsoever. *Yeah. *Be sure not to trip over your own feet.

And Brady--I could agree with that theory as well. *Seems logical, maybe I'll have time later to finish reading all the fine print.
Thanks for the input but I’m a science geek also and I have the piece and direction of god. I’m not trying to prove you wrong. God is opening a door for you if you want to steep threw it. I have had the same piece from god wile wide-awake. Even you must realize that there is real communication in dreams. Maybe your not at this sight to talk about dreams, I will share one more scripture that is directly connected to my life. It says young men will have visions and old men will dream dreams. When I was young just laying back on a cot in the middle of the day I had a vision that flashed threw my mind. I have to stop and think who I am sharing this with because I need to discern sometimes who to share it with. I will share this with the world and you are the world. In the vision god let me see what mans mind looks like to him. I mean like an x-ray vision type of sight. This is serious stuff. To put it in short it was and is a very ugly thing. Again being serious. It reminded me of like something from an Outer Limits moves. Ugly and full of sin. Tears came to my eyes after I sat up having realized what I just witnessed. Here’s a way maybe you can understand that vision. Your and intellect I’m an intellect and for the most part the IQ can be like a curse. Do you love your mother? Do you love a brother or sister. Is that love real? God loves you and that’s real. He wants to help you see. Not a religion but a real person named Jesus. Ask him into you life. You’ll never be the same.

[Awaken4e1]

:goodjob: Good Posting!

[dreamtamer007]

Just like when you looked into and gave your selves to LDing. If you give him a try he will help you and you will have other experiences. Here’s another one that happened to me. I was in the mountains of Pennsylvania and wile walking up an incline in the middle of the day I heard a voice from right behind me say ”John this is Jesus I am with you”. I turned around and looked but no one was there. Talk about getting high!

[Awaken4e1]

Originally posted by dreamtamer007
I wasn’t going to post here again but god wants me to. Yea, you read that right. . So maybe were all here for that on big spiritual journey. Some call Christians bible thumpers. *

We as Christians have found a piece that tells us we are on the path that our creator intended. I don’t want to post here and debate anymore but will if god leads. Anyway, yes you will only get to experience the piece from god with first believing and sure enough, maybe when you get low enough, you will ask him to come into your life and help. *

Maybe some are smart enough to ask before things get that rough. Unfortunately I was not one of them. I had to get in a world of shet before I did so, Let those that have ears hear what the spirit is saying to the churches.

Brother, I really appreciate your obedience to God for that, I to be going to stop posting here as well. But God spoke to me, and told me to continue here are those who hear without the sarcasm, and ridicule.

So I began again to post, but with a different intent. I would have just figured that the majority of the people who come to this site never post at all, but just read all the others who do.

So this and every other post from now on is for them. To many people believe that if your Christian than you have a milk-toast spine, (not here baby) as I can see you to are of great character.

Thank you very much for your obedience to God, I stand with you in your faith.

The Rev.

[Awaken4e1]

Just a little foot note:
To those who have such vast intellects, and no spiritual understanding.

It is written: those who have not yet discovered that they are God’s children. You are, as the Word refers to you (dead.) This is very sad because there are many who are praying for those who are in this state.

But as usual the dead are they who only attack that which they don’t understand. Many posts are started in good faith, with the hope that someone would be touched by it, and respond. But, those who spend their time seeking ‘whom they may devour’ for such things grammatical errors, and they suppress those who are seeking the truth. It just goes to show, that with all that learning you still haven’t learned how to be a leader or even a good example to those who have not been educated.

There is a beginning which occurs when one realizes they are God’s child, it is a new beginning! They are now new, and their years begin at that point. And it is sad that those who are of the mind and its abilities will never know the Joy! Of belonging to the Creator! So with all your brains, who still are nothing more than dead in God’s eyes, and that is sad because you’re vast intellect keeps you from knowing ‘Wisdom’!

The Rev.

[kimpossible]

So what is it about lucid dreaming that attracts rabidly obnoxious bible-thumpers?

And why is it that rabidly obnoxious bible-thumpers are so set on growing their number? Is it insecurity? Or is it simply mob-mentality and knee jerk reaction? **

** This query is intended to exclude the subset of those which believe their diety speaks to them in auditory hallucination. That's called a pathology and is well-explored and reasonably easily treated through therapy and medication.

[docKnubis]

ok God created the earth and the things that are on it correct in many peoples belefies but what most of them dont take in to consideration is that God also created evolution in a way. to keep the things he created alive they needed the abillity to adapt to there suroundings..... ok thats all i got i had a bottle rocket moment

[Tsen]

I have no problem with God existing, I just want to know why you can't accept that things had to start SOMEWHERE.

Originally posted by dreamtamer007
piece and direction of god

I think you meant 'peace'

As a matter of fact, consider proofreading your posts before sending them. The spelling errors kill me.

[Oneironaut]

Ok. Being the agnostist (word?) that I am, I'm speaking from a completely neutral position as far as whether God exists or not, so I don't want to hear anything from believers about how I "just don't understand" or "refuse to see truth" or that I'm bashing their religion.

But one has to wonder so many things when looking at God and Religion. First of all, the word "faith" is almost synonymous with "naivete" when it comes to an area like religion. Your faith stems more from your upbringing and the influences around you, than it does from personal experience. That faith then multiplies upon itself Through personal experience because you're crediting every "positive" or "mysterious" experience as a credit toward your belief. Every negative experience, as explained by whoever it is that is guiding you through the parameters of your religion, has a meaning to it that, somehow, excuses your diety from responsibility. It is either flat out your fault, or it "Happened for a reason." While still hung on the finality of whether "God exists or not," I have a problem with this.
Is it not true that the Bible itself has been changed in the past? That it was altered from the traditional Pagan bible, to what is now (to the degree of a MASSIVE change) the more modern, Catholic version? If I'm wrong, please correct me, because I don't follow too many religious circles and am simply gathering more information by presenting what I've already heard or read. If this is true, what does complete faith in what you, a person of this era, believe in mean? Does it mean you have faith in "The Truth" or an "altered version of the truth?"
It is said that the bible is Not to be taken literally, which many religious folk actually do. It was written in a time where literary art was filled with many double entendres (sp?) and other word-play formations, but is now presented to a modern society where much of the population can hardly accurately define the word 'metaphor.' If these people have their honest faith in God, but do not understand the bible for its Figurative nature, are they damned? If they think they understand the bible, and live by their own interpretation of it, are they denied paradise because they don't Fully understand the nature of their religion? And if you know the answer to this, please elaborate on How you know the answer to this.
Also, why is it that one is considered 'dead' for not believing in God, in God's eyes? If we are all God's children, and he loves us all, is that love severed if the 'child' grows up without a large amount of exposure to God? If a child grows up in an area that doesn't travel in religious circles, or better yet was born into a different religion all together, does this child (many of whom have No control of what kind of religion their folks bring them up in) lose the love of God because he's forced into a position of nonbelief or uncertainty? I would consider this to be an act of a selfish diety; one that somewhat delights in emotional dettachment from anyone who may not know enough about his 'existence' to have complete and utter Faith. As humans (and quite possibly as a fundamentally Living thing) we have this psychological instinct to question things that aren't quite easy to conceptualize. That is a part of who we are. Givin to us by "God," if you want to take the arguement to that perspective. So what you are telling me is that (dismissing the fact that many of us still keep our morals in check, without complete and total belief) someone who so much as Questions God's existence, while competing with a lifetime of experience that seem to Scream denial of his existence, is Not Fit for Paradise when their earthly life is over? In the span of humanity, maybe a small percentage of every human who has ever lived has stuck their complete and utter faith in God. Even this is considering that God has many faces through religion, and in some religions there are in fact many Gods. Who would you be, a person who has never Seen God, to call the claims of any religion other than yours a Lie, and deem the person believing that religion "Not Fit to enter the gates of Paradise?" You speak of prejudice to the religious but completely leave out the prejudice Of the religious that has been responsible for Wars and Hate Crimes Innumerable over the centuries. How many people have killed the innocent "in the name of God" or because "God told them to do it?" You say that you spoke to God, but so do the women that kill their children, the men that kill their families, and the crusaders who slay the thousands. How do you determine who "Really spoke to God?" and who would you be to dare to call any one of them a liar? To do so would be to say that you "know God" well enough, without interaction with a Confirmed Diety (other than the voice in your head that many people blame their homicides on) to assume what he would say while whispering into the ears of those who "Believe."
How is it, in such a sound, enlightened, and 'credible' environment such as religion, catholicism in particular, that many of its most respected advocates, participants, and in deed leaders are constantly being found guilty of many of the same sins they speak publicly against? If God is not master in his own house, who is? And if he IS master of his own house, why are such actions tolerated? How much grime do you think lurks beneath the countless steepled rooftops that go undiscovered? How many corrupt Religious leaders are allowed to prey upon the impressionable minds of those who come to house of God for guidance and understanding of the realm they are supposed to put their full "Faith" in?

Without being so bold as to say God does not exist, one has to wonder how someone could expect to have full and total belief in God while taking a conscious perspective on the many man Many inconsistencies of religion?

Your religion is based more on social interactions and environment. If you weren't born in America, or another widely catholic area, it is safe to say you wouldn't have your unrivaled faith in God, as you now view him, If you were to have faith in one God at all. If what you are saying is correct, you mean to say that if there IS a heaven, anyone born into a family that did not value the concept of God, despite still being God's child, would not be allowed passage into Heaven. THAT...again..I have a problem with.

(Side note: Appolgies for the horrible paragraph formatting. At work without much time to pay attention to that.)

[Ynot]

Yay, another internet "Evolution Vs. Creationism" thread
cause a quick google search of other such arguements
will reveal a satisfactory answer for all :roll:

Creationism Beleivers
Evolution beleivers are created by God to test your faith. Be nice to them, offer them a refreshing beverage (I recommend Sprite) and be safe in the knowledge that you have furfilled your christian obligation of universal acceptance and understanding
Be thankful that God has chosen you to relieve the thirst of an evolution believer and that your non-confrontation actions will please God

Evolution Beleivers
Creationism beleivers are, by your very nature, to be expected. For to evolve mentally, old-fashioned notions and ideas must be proven (for good or ill) for you to accept them. Offer the creationists a refreshing beverage (Red wine seems to go down well, here) and accept the fact that only the strongest and most adaptable will survive in the long run.
Be thankful for other people's differing view points, as this is the essence of diversity needed in a healthy evolving community, and that your non-confrontation actions will ensure continuation of natural selection.

Thank you, and good night

[InTheMoment]

Well put O-naut! :goodjob2: (albeit your aforementioned paragraph structure) :P

Your religion is based more on social interactions and environment. If you weren't born in America, or another widely catholic area, it is safe to say you wouldn't have your unrivaled faith in God, as you now view him, If you were to have faith in one God at all. If what you are saying is correct, you mean to say that if there IS a heaven, anyone born into a family that did not value the concept of God, despite still being God's child, would not be allowed passage into Heaven. THAT...again..I have a problem with. [/b]
That's also my main problem with religion...especially monotheistic ones. I believe it was Spoon, in another thread, that brought up a smiliar point. That point has yet to be addressed and I'm highly doubtful it ever will. :shakehead2:

You say that you spoke to God, but so do the women that kill their children, the men that kill their families, and the crusaders who slay the thousands. How do you determine who \"Really spoke to God?\" and who would you be to dare to call any one of them a liar?[/b]
I feel that if someone is gullible enough to believe in religous dogma (especially that of a monotheistic flavor), then it wouldn't surprise me that they \"think\" they hear voices from their creator.

Your faith stems more from your upbringing and the influences around you, than it does from personal experience. That faith then multiplies upon itself Through personal experience because you're crediting every \"positive\" or \"mysterious\" experience as a credit toward your belief. Every negative experience, as explained by whoever it is that is guiding you through the parameters of your religion, has a meaning to it that, somehow, excuses your diety from responsibility. It is either flat out your fault, or it \"Happened for a reason.\" [/b]
Add to this the modus-operandi of life which grants a brief spell of consciousness to all living stuff and engenders a powerful compulsion towards survival. This provides a sure recipe for imagining a scheme in which stuff becomes immortal and given the evident indifference of the environment and disease to which stuff is subject, it would feel greatly comforted by the idea that someone was looking out for it all the same. And this emotional investment becomes yet another reason to overlook the unlikeliness of an imagined designer.

Without being so bold as to say God does not exist, one has to wonder how someone could expect to have full and total belief in God while taking a conscious perspective on the many man Many inconsistencies of religion? [/b]
Religion (in some manner or another) can be found at every corner of our globe. What made so many cultures create the concept of God? What was the basic motive? What was the purpose? Was it fear of the unknown?

These are the questions that I'm still seeking answers towards. Well that and where to find Mo Naked Hoes.

[Ynot]

Ps. I forgot to add....

That's my philosophy of live
the best part about it, is anyone who argues with you comes across as a selfish arse who has no respect for others

[Ynot]

By the way, now might be a good time to introduce the Golden Ratio, and explain that man's evolution, God and the whole of the universe are united under one irrational number

Fi Phi Fo Fum
I smell the blood of a circular arguement, son

[kimpossible]

Yes, his spelling is spot-on. As long as his meaning is absolutely different than his intended meaning.
[applaud TygrHawk]

BTW, I think he might have one of those correct, however:

God is opening a door for you if you want to steep threw it.

That may be the secret. You need to steep threw that door. [sic]

[pulls out a gigantic pan of near-boiling water, steeps the door, then tosses it. Nothing happens.]

Damn, oh well.

[Awaken4e1]

Originally posted by Oneironaut
Ok. Being the agnostist (word?) *that I am, I'm speaking from a completely neutral position as far as whether God exists or not, so I don't want to hear anything from believers about how I \"just don't understand\" or \"refuse to see truth\" or that I'm bashing their religion.)

Before I get start I would first like to say ‘Great Post’

Now, I would like to cover some of you questions, if I may?

‘First ‘Faith is not naiveté it is the act of knowing the natural law, and seeing beyond it.

Every negative experience, as explained by whomever it is that is guiding you through the parameters of your religion, has a meaning to it that, somehow, excuses your deity from responsibility.”

To those who know the purpose of good and evil also know that it is all part of the plan which God has for Man. It is not a shirking of a responsibility; it is the emersion of Man into a mixture, to bring him out of the negative experience with more than he had when he went into it.

Is it not true that the Bible itself has been changed in the past?

Yes, it is true, but for the most part it has changed for the betterment of the masses.
But on the same token, in some circles it has changed to serve the lusts of Man.

A little foot note here: There are over 30,000 mistranslations within the KJV of the Bible.
Any text interpreted by man is going to have errors, but this is any God gives His Spirit to His people to know the true Word interpreted by the Spirit.

Pagan bible”

I don’t believe that any book referred to as the Bible can ever be referred to ‘as pagan’.

If this is true, what does complete faith in what you, a person of this era, believe in mean?

It means that no matter what the outer circumstance tell you, only what your heart aliened with the Word of God tells you what true Faith is.

Does it mean you have faith in "The Truth" or an "altered version of the truth?"

Truth is relative to the experience of the individual; just as a diamond has many fascists so also does Faith, and Truth. We place faith where ever we need it, and one person’s faith can differ from another’s and still be the truth, and true faith.

If these people have their honest faith in God, but do not understand the bible for its Figurative nature, are they damned?

No, it is not mere understanding, which saved you, it is faith. It is you’re belief.

If they think they understand the bible, and live by their own interpretation of it, are they denied paradise because they don't fully understand the nature of their religion?

It is not their understanding of text which saves them, it is their faith which plainly put is (believing in something they can’t see or explain.) God doesn’t judge us, only we judge ourselves. I know this because there is a new ability in me which God give to all his people. An ability to lay down intellect, and walk by what our heart already knows.

Also, why is it that one is considered 'dead' for not believing in God, in God's eyes?

Because according to the Word a man who is not regenerated, or in other terms born again, (sorry about the terminology) does not have the ability to commune with God’s Spirit, So he is dead in the spirit, also God can not look on any one who is not regenerated because of sin.

If we are all God's children, and he loves us all, is that love severed if the 'child' grows up without a large amount of exposure to God? If a child grows up in an area that doesn't travel in religious circles, or better yet was born into a different religion all together, does this child (many of whom have No control of what kind of religion their folks bring them up in) lose the love of God because he's forced into a position of non-belief or uncertainty?

In every person’s life there are circumstances which we are all faced with, one of which is the place in our life where we search our heart to find our origin. It is not based on any religious underpinnings but is a build-in course of human life. So, even if some one is not raised in a ‘religious home’ there will come a time in that person’s life where they must find faith on their own.

So what you are telling me is that (dismissing the fact that many of us still keep our morals in check, without complete and total belief) someone who so much as Questions God's existence, while competing with a lifetime of experience that seem to Scream denial of his existence, is Not Fit for Paradise when their earthly life is over?

It is only a human conception that God will hold paradise from those who did not believe in Him. To the contrary our reward of Paradise is solely guarantee on our asking for that gift. Hi is only the result of God holding anything back from us. ‘Look at is this way, If you where to sole heir to a vast fortune, it is there for you to take at anytime, but if you don’t know to ‘take’ it then you wont receive it. The same is true for Paradise. You don’t have because you don’t ask.

God has many faces through religion, and in some religions there are in fact many Gods.

True, there are many faces of God but only ‘One God’ with many faces.

Who would you be a person who has never Seen God, to call the claims of any religion other than yours a Lie?

Only those of a spurious nature would even claim they ‘alone’ know the True God.

Wars and Hate Crimes Innumerable,

There must be a clear understanding between ‘Causality’ and an act of God.
But let me just say here: I am in no position to tell God what He can, and can not do. God will have mercy on which He will, and He will kill whom He will.

Many people blame their homicides on,

‘Thou shalt not murder’
God does not command any one to do that which is contrary to His Word.

Leaders are constantly being found guilty of many of the same sins they speak publicly against?

Remember ‘Causality’ Man will always fail you; God will never fail you, Look at God not man.

How many corrupt Religious leaders are allowed to prey upon the impressionable minds of those who come to house of God for guidance and understanding of the realm they are supposed to put their full "Faith" in?

Every man will be held accountable for hi own actions, no one is getting away from their deeds, especially not those who claim themselves to be men of God.

Many inconsistencies of religion?

As long as man is in the flesh, he will be subject to vanity, (not willingly) and this causes man to miss the mark (to sin)

You mean to say that if there IS a heaven, anyone born into a family that did not value the concept of God, despite still being God's child, would not be allowed passage into Heaven.

Again, it is not a matter of being restricted from Heaven; it is that you can not live in Heaven without being a Spiritual Creature in born of God in fellowship with God, which again brings me back to the fact that if your not regenerated you are not able to live in Heaven. It is a matter of spiritual law, not of be better than some one else. It’s a gift! Take it.

[Awaken4e1]

Amen Brother!

[kimpossible]

>> Yes, it is true, but for the most part it has changed for the betterment of the masses

By what measure?

>> Faith is not naiveté it is the act of knowing the natural law

You have certainly demonstrated the opposite by repeatedly showing a cluelessness in regard to "natural law".

>> plan which God has for Man

Could you ask your god to send me a copy? I'm sure he has my email address. I'd like to review it. Surely it's subject to peer review?

>> don’t believe that any book referred to as the Bible can ever be referred to ‘as pagan’.

That's pretty shallow!


>> Truth is relative to the experience of the individual

No. Truth, by definition, is constant. Otherwise it isn't true.


>> which saved you, it is faith. It is you’re belief

So if I decide to believe, I can run around whacking people by the thousands. Like the crusades, right? Seems kinda convenient!


>> So, even if some one is not raised in a ‘religious home’ there will come a time in that person’s life where they must find faith on their own.

Yeah. Your diety is pretty racist!

>> God will have mercy on which He will, and He will kill whom He will.

Seems pretty arbitrary and immature. Like he needs a good ass-whoopin', maybe. Anyone have a birch-tree handy that I might borrow a branch from?

>> Man will always fail you

So what about the times that man hasn't failed me? Boolean Algebra now disproves that whole statement. Beyond that - a man is always true to his nature. Figure out his nature and you know the measure of the man.

>> As long as man is in the flesh, he will be subject to vanity, (not willingly) and this causes man to miss the mark (to sin)

One of my biggest problems with religion in general is the bullshit excuses to cover holes and flaws. If I were creating something to keep the sheeple in line, I'd make it a LOT simpler. Much fewer holes that way. Your church should really consider a simplification that makes it harder to call bullshit on. If they whacked their bible down to about five pages, it'd be a heck of a lot easier to be self-consistant. And much harder to laugh at. Just a word of advice, feel free to pass it along to your god.

>> It’s a gift! Take it.

Price is too high. "Check your brain at the door" just doesn't work out for me, but thanks anyway!

[Tsen]

Okay, had to finish reading up and stuff before I made a somewhat more serious (and on-topic) post.

My first problem with your logic is that people brought up in one religion must at some point find their faith for themselves. It's been proved many times over that people brought up in a set of beliefs tend to stay with those beliefs. There's plenty of exceptions to the rule, but many people brought up in a religion stay with that religion without ever questioning why.
Let's compare it to political party. Most of the time, a person brought up as a Republican will stay Republican, and a person brought up as a Democrat will stay Democrat. To further this, many who are brought up in whichever party never realize WHY they belong to that party. I daresay a significant amount wouldn't belong to the party the are in now if they weren't raised in that party.
Religion is very similar. A significant of people are brought up in a religion and never notice why. Never challenge their beliefs at all. If they'd been brought up in another religion, they'd likely stay with it.
In part, this is due to the nature of 'faith'. Faith is belief in something without having evidence to support it. Because of this, there need not be a reason to whatever you're believing, you just need to keep believing it. And so, somebody can be in the ENTIRELY wrong church, and still believe wholeheartedly that they have FAITH and that God has told them it's true, when they really just had a slight case of heartburn that day.
Simply put, there's no carved-in-stone definition of faith. Say that Church A is the correct church, and Church B isn't. If somebody's raised in Church B, they may feel that they have faith in a true gospel, and so they'll stay in Church B. Somebody in Church A will do the same. But if somebody from Church B visits Church A, they might realize that the faith is different in Church A and that they really didn't know anything when they were in Church B, and join Church A.
But in real life, few people actually go visiting different churches. I actually doubt that it's possible to visit all the churches in the world. So, somebody may feel false faith, and never know the difference because they never experienced TRUE faith.

[kimpossible]

Tsen, would you agree that most people take the "path of least resistance" and that that kinda summarizes your point?

If we agree there, then I'm onboard with you.

[dreamtamer007]

I guess this post has turn into I believe in god and I don’t. Well on an awkward day I decided to poke fun at evolution. So I’m not perfect. I used to think I was just like Kimpossible and have paid a big price in my own mind for that aragance. Awaken4e1 and I have experienced the touch of god. We are not trying to say we have a better way of thinking about anything. Awaken4e1 has experienced something that is as real as Lucid Dreaming and so have I. We wanted to try and share this with others but like he said the intellects are going to try and devour us in the process. The bible also says the devil knows the scriptures but trembles at the name of the only living son. “Oh so he is the only one living and we are all dead,” you might say. “Yes” only Awaken4e1 and myself have learned to accept that and as we die to ourselves we come to real life. And we are here to share that life. Well no one answered my simple question about what is cold. Some intellects. Maybe it was too simple. Ok, All you scientific science nerds and computer nerds, answer this one. What is considered the hart of a computer? Without it no computer would work. I know the answer and am not going to reveal it until someone comes up with the correct answer or enough people want to learn. It is a piece of hardware and it’s been around since the sixties maybe earlier. I actually used one in the early sixties (60s) clue :shock:

[kimpossible]

The heart of the computer (not to be confused with the "hart" of the computer as you have, since I rarely find deer living in my machines) is the flip-flop. Computers compute in a binary state. In the 50s, the flip-flop was a relay. In the 60's-70's it was descreet logic. In the late 70's, 80's it became the transistor.

The FPGA rebirths the concept. Individual gates - or flipflops, field combined.

All systems within the computer,without exception, function on the concept of on-and-off, present and absent.

[Oneironaut]

Thanks for the compliments. 8)

(Edit: Holy Shit I didn't mean for this to be so long! lol And those who believe they are the enlightened shouldn't feel so disgusted by agnostists and skeptics. We are the way we are because we are Desiring to know, and failing to find the answers! Heh.)

Well I see the sort of disappointment with where the thread was heading, but I'm still interested, lol, but if the others want to redirect its fine with me. No harm no foul.

‘First ‘Faith is not naiveté it is the act of knowing the natural law, and seeing beyond it.

I don't think I can agree with that. Remember, \"Faith\" goes deeper than religion. To have Faith in something means you invision a certain outcome and steadfastly choose to ignore all outside input that challenges the belief of that outcome, no matter how illogical it may seem, shutting out all consciousness of possibility off fallicy.(sp) You are closing yourself to every experience which branches outside of your faith and dubbing it \"not worth consideration\" because it is not what you already believe.
This ignorance to opposition (that is Not meant to be an insult, so don't take it as one) very very closely relates to naivete. To have faith in something is to have a psychological ignorance of all opposing data, taking your gut instinct, not thinking of how opposed to logical perception it is, and running with it. While not naivete in its most basic definition, it is Very Very close.

To those who know the purpose of good and evil also know that it is all part of the plan which God has for Man. It is not a shirking of a responsibility; it is the emersion of Man into a mixture, to bring him out of the negative experience with more than he had when he went into it.

I understand your view on this. The concept of evil could be acredited toward being \"a test for man to overcome to earn his position under the light of God.\" But you have to remember how Different a child's upbringing can be. This would mean that anyone who grows up without a proper concept of what the Gospel says is good and evil, doesn't quite have the ammunition in which to Overcome evil to succeed in \"Goodness.\" Is this person damned from birth, forsaken from heaven by the nature of their upbringing?

Yes, it is true, but for the most part it has changed for the betterment of the masses.
But on the same token, in some circles it has changed to serve the lusts of Man[/quote.

If the Bible was transcribed by those under the influence of the Spirit, who, but the spirit, has authority to change it? Who is allowed to bend the laws and by which account are they fully inclined to set forth what is \"better for the masses?\" Did God himself change his mind and relay this to those who doctored the \"Word?\" You say that \"Man will always fail you,\" but I think it is naivete to assume that whatever Man changed the \"Word\" was communing definitely with God. If not, please rationalize how this was Indisputably \"Devine Intervention.\"

[quote]I don’t believe that any book referred to as the Bible can ever be referred to ‘as pagan’.

I did not mean \"The Pagan 'BIBLE'\" in the literal sense, as they might not have Technically ever called it their \"Bible,\" which is a bit of a literary low-blow if that is what you meant. Aside from that, to further illustrate your point, please explain the similarities between so many (including Catholic and Pagan) dieties.
http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/jesus_similar.html

It means that no matter what the outer circumstance tell you, only what your heart aliened with the Word of God tells you what true Faith is.

My heart falls more with the concept of God, than the Word of God, because the Word of God is at-large interpretted by Man (whom you conclude will always fail me.) However I know What true Faith is, I simply, as yet, don't subscribe to your view of it.

Truth is relative to the experience of the individual; just as a diamond has many fascists so also does Faith, and Truth. We place faith where ever we need it, and one person’s faith can differ from another’s and still be the truth, and true faith.

Not so. Reality is relative to the experience of the individual. Truth is universal. A truth that warps itself to accomodate the mind of an individual is more accurately defined as \"Perception\" or \"Opinion.\" Whatever someone holds true: \"It is hot today,\" \"Catholicism is the correct religion,\" \"God exists,\" are only True if Verifiable by all accounts. Anything else is a Theory, a Perspective, an Opinion.
\"It is 95 degrees today.\" \"There are many different religions worldwide.\" \"God is, as yet, an undetermined absolution.\" THESE are truths.

No, it is not mere understanding, which saved you, it is faith. It is you’re belief.

So if someone interprets the word of God: \"Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, he'll eat forever.\" (Not word-for-word) to mean that \"If I molest one child, I'll be satisfied for a night, but if I devise a plan to keep the human traffic moving, I can satisfy myself for a lifetime.\" Is not his interpretation crucial? Is his \"unwavering Faith\" promising him paradise at the end of his journey?

It is not their understanding of text which saves them, it is their faith which plainly put is (believing in something they can’t see or explain.) God doesn’t judge us, only we judge ourselves. I know this because there is a new ability in me which God give to all his people. An ability to lay down intellect, and walk by what our heart already knows.

If I'm correct, many many MANY crimes are committed with the frame of mind that they are Justifiable. Countless terrorists and normal (abnormal) people do what they do with a sense of righteousness, and unwavering self-judgement that what they are doing is the right thing to do. In other words: Faith.

>>Also, why is it that one is considered 'dead' for not believing in God, in God's eyes?

Because according to the Word a man who is not regenerated, or in other terms born again, (sorry about the terminology) does not have the ability to commune with God’s Spirit, So he is dead in the spirit, also God can not look on any one who is not regenerated because of sin.

So if someone went through life (again without proper influence through religious sociality) without a concept of \"Sin,\" yet they, through various interractions with truely benevolent people, lead a life of giving and projected well-being to others, this person is denied salvation by God? What if they grew up (again) in the environment of another religion and their concept of \"sin\" is different than yours? Is God's light so esoteric that you Have to have full knowledge of Sin, committing it, and being born again through it, that your level of lifelong benevolence doesn't matter if you haven't followed the right procedures?

In every person’s life there are circumstances which we are all faced with, one of which is the place in our life where we search our heart to find our origin. It is not based on any religious underpinnings but is a build-in course of human life. So, even if some one is not raised in a ‘religious home’ there will come a time in that person’s life where they must find faith on their own.

Ahh, but that is a Dangerous answer!
An answer like that is to say (going back to what I said before about the concept of \"faith\") that following this path of exploration of self can lead to many Many interpretations of \"faith.\" One's search for self can evolve into a faith of origin that completely opposes a believer's view of God. Perhaps the person grows up an evolutionist, taking whatever information they are given through life to conclude that all scientific theory is correct, and with this, compiling a perspective of morality and their own views of right and wrong. In this, they are not only keeping themself from many of the 'sins' described in scripture, but they are putting their faith in what they believe to be their origin. Is \"God\" (which can be called \"Chance\" and/or \"the mixture of the right variables\" by evolutionists) by any other name...is still God?
This person would be displaying a True Faith, while exercising to the best of their ability the concept of \"right and wrong.\" Could they be damnable because their faith in \"Where I came from and how I should live\" does not contain the \"God\" in your context?

It is only a human conception that God will hold paradise from those who did not believe in Him. To the contrary our reward of Paradise is solely guarantee on our asking for that gift. Hi is only the result of God holding anything back from us. ‘Look at is this way, If you where to sole heir to a vast fortune, it is there for you to take at anytime, but if you don’t know to ‘take’ it then you wont receive it. The same is true for Paradise. You don’t have because you don’t ask.

If I see what you're saying, I find it hard to digest. Again, I want to mention my true interest in this, which is why I'm playing the antagonist.
I'm going to ask you to put yourself in my shoes and look at this from an agnostic point of view.
If there is a God, being the moral (in my opinion) respect-oriented person that I am, I Do ask for a place in Heaven, if it so exists. I understand how in this respect those who flat out Don't Believe would fall short. (Not saying that This respect negates all of the other inconsistencies.) But then, not having Full Faith in God's existence, (which I'm not sure that I do) who sets the standard for What I have to do to get my way into heaven? You said that Full Faith is key, at first, but that is under-fire by the fact that many murderers blame their crimes on Full Faith. So in that respect, I pass, because Morally (assuming a fair minimum-requirement) I'm ok. But then, you have to take into consideration that I Don't Fully Believe.
So, living what I think is a morally sound, and in some cases modest, and overly-benevolent lifestlye, with a heartfelt, genuine respect and love for God (while still logically questioning his existence), are you saying that I'm not fit for heaven because my faith isn't Absolute?
I don’t think that confusion in the face of overwhelming information for and against God’s existence is a fair grounds for expulsion from Heaven. Is it?

And the most important questions, after examining your answer to the last one:
If I’m NOT fit for heaven…what kind of people are roaming around there? Those who Have Faith but misinterpret the meanings of the Word?
And: If I AM fit for Heaven, being the agnostist that I am (damn…is that really a word or not? Lol) then what is the point of adhering to the life of servitude that a Hard-Core religious person has to withstand, when Morality and a Request for Invitation are key enough?

Whoa…I think I might have actually gotten pretty deep with that one. J

‘Thou shalt not murder’
God does not command any one to do that which is contrary to His Word.

Is this to mean those men that headed the crusades were corrupt? And if this is so, who is to say that the views that stemmed from the church of that era aren’t corrupt as well?

Again, it is not a matter of being restricted from Heaven; it is that you can not live in Heaven without being a Spiritual Creature in born of God in fellowship with God, which again brings me back to the fact that if your not regenerated you are not able to live in Heaven. It is a matter of spiritual law, not of be better than some one else. It’s a gift! Take it.

Finally, (Damn I haven't ranted like this in a while. lol) as a question of morality and my “positive outlook and actions” through life, I AM born of God and in fellowship with God. I live my life by many of the values the religious live by, because I agree that fundamentally many things just Should Not be done. But as far as “Knowing God Exists beyond a doubt,” if God really Does exists, I’d hate to think that he would keep someone out of Heaven because of their confusion about something they have no unambiguous evidence of.

[dreamtamer007]

Originally posted by kimpossible
The heart of the computer (not to be confused with the \"hart\" of the computer as you have, since I rarely find deer living in my machines) is the flip-flop. Computers compute in a binary state. In the 50s, the flip-flop was a relay. In the 60's-70's it was descreet logic. In the late 70's, 80's it became the transistor.

The FPGA rebirths the concept. Individual gates - or flipflops, field combined.

All systems within the computer,without exception, function on the concept of on-and-off, present and absent.
I spelled heart wrong. You understand the basic logic of how a computer works and I give you credit for that. We are talking about something that usually only an engineer who designs would know Yes the transistors are important for producing the binary functions or language but would not function without another device. As a matter of fact without this devise none of the transistors would flip-flop properly or would work together. Another clue. You can have binary code on a disk but the relays or transistors would not have a clue as what to do without the help of this devise. Now I’m trying to be nice.

[Tsen]

Give up the compter analogy. It isn't working too well for you.

Kim, that's exactly what I'm saying. To many people take the easy way through life and never step back and say, "Wait, this doesn't make sense!", and because of that, they never progress. People are so close-minded about things that they don't stop to assume that somebody else could be right.

Now, I've listened to your remarks. I actually was in just about the same place once. I stepped back, said, "Huh...that's odd. I'm a Christian, but I don't agree with Christian viewpoints on religion." and I gave it up.
Here's my point: God may or may not exist. I haven't decided. Probably won't for a while. BUT, if he DOES exist, and if he is a completely just and loving God, he must inherently be a FAIR God. And a fair God won't condemn a man to Hell for eternity just because he was born in the wrong circumstances. He also won't condemn a man for a sin that Adam commited thousands of years ago. And finally, he won't condemn a man for not believing in Christ, even if that man was a perfect being.
If you say otherwise, please explain how this can happen and he can still be a fair and loving God.

[kimpossible]

It's seems to me that if the UN weren't a bunch of crooked thieving wankers, they'd ban god from the planet and bring him up on charges of crimes against humanity.

Eternal torture? Seems like we should be sending the bombers gods way. Load 'em up, smoke 'em if you got 'em.

[spoon]

why are we talking about computers? The ALU (Arithmetic and Logic Unit) would be the heart of a computer.

I'll read the rest when i get back from work (4 pages in 2 days? damn you people!)

-spoon

[Awaken4e1]

Originally posted by Tsen


Now, I've listened to your remarks. I actually was in just about the same place once. I stepped back, said, \"Huh...that's odd. I'm a Christian, but I don't agree with Christian viewpoints on religion.\" and I gave it up.


I have many beliefs that are not of the mainstream of Christianity, but I am still Christian
So, did Jesus!

cute little thought... Going to church doesn't make you Christian,(as I have hear from so many who claim to be Christian) Just as sleeping in a garage doesn't make you a car...

[dreamtamer007]

Originally posted by Tsen+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tsen)</div>Give up the compter analogy. It isn't working too well for you.
[/b]
It’s called a computer. Ok but it’s a simple piece of hardware and only someone that’s has been to computer science class would know. So forget it. No problem.Lol

<!--QuoteBegin-Tsen


Kim, that's exactly what I'm saying. To many people take the easy way through life and never step back and say, \"Wait, this doesn't make sense!\", and because of that, they never progress. People are so close-minded about things that they don't stop to assume that somebody else could be right.

What are you talking about? Kim started challenging knowledge on thermodynamics. And such

Originally posted by Tsen+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tsen)</div>
And a fair God won't condemn a man to Hell for eternity just because he was born in the wrong circumstances. He also won't condemn a man for a sin that Adam commited thousands of years ago.
[/b]
You non-believers always think you know what a fair god would be thinking.

<!--QuoteBegin-Tsen

And finally, he won't condemn a man for not believing in Christ, even if that man was a perfect being.
If you say otherwise, please explain how this can happen and he can still be a fair and loving God.
You seem to know god better then me. You even know the reason god is sending one somewhere.
The answers are in the bible.
Please ask one question at a time And make it spicific. I’m getting tired and I’m not the bible. I have a bible.

[Ynot]

serious question (honest guv).

At any one time how can you be certain it's God your serving
is it possible to be following the devil and not even know it?

[dreamtamer007]

All things are possible and some impossible. Have you heard “being asleep and awake at the same time? Without contradiction a peace that passes understanding is like a meditative state that confirms god’s presence and casts out all fear.

[Ynot]

is that a "no" ?
you can't be sure who you serve?

[dreamtamer007]

Originally posted by Ynot
is that a \"no\" ?
you can't be sure who you serve?
You’re talking about being shure of anything. Mentally no, only relatively speaking. It is impossible for two objects to occupy the same space at the same time. But even that’s relative because we are talking about the known universe. Spirit is not just mind.

[Ynot]

My point was that no-one can be certain if it's god or the devil they serve
this uncertainty makes people want to question (and get sensible answers)
failure to get answers only leads to more uncertainty

I've said this before
circular arguements

What I am dead certain of, though
is man's stubbonness to change his views
Once someone has made a decisive view-point
nothing is going to make him change that

proof of that is in the history books, my friend

I, myself, am completely uncertain
probably always will be

[Ynot]

I've often wondered what would happen if the second coming of christ actually happened

He'd probably be gunned down and branded a heretic
got to admit, there's a lot of fanatisism spanning all religions and beliefs
quick to judge, quick to act
quick to persecute

fuck me freddy, that thought scares the shit out of me
last time God intervened, he spared 2 of every animal, and 2 humans

he might decide to leave us be the next time

[kimpossible]

Originally posted by Ynot
Once someone has made a decisive view-point
nothing is going to make him change that


I think reasonable and logical people can. People who attend this very forum have seen me argue a viewpoint and then back down when presented with a valid counter-argument.

On the flip-side, a friend was giving me a job reference years ago. They asked her what my biggest failing was. She said "She does not tolerate fools well."

Truer words never spoken.

Evidence abounds in this thread that the notion to put Internet connectivity into mental wards and on short schoolbusses was a bad idea. dreamtamer's last post, for example.

[Ynot]

Originally posted by kimpossible
I think reasonable and logical people can
not when a person's fundamental beleifs (or lack of) are questioned

my experience is
people who belief will belief no matter what
people who don't, won't, no matter what

but hey.....

[kimpossible]

There's a third case. Those who don't believe or disbelieve, but rather require proof. In the absense of that proof through billions of claims over thousands of years, one may make a statistically accurate presumption that proof will never arrive - therefore the claim is (and will remain) false.

If the person is mature in their self-awareness, they will always be prepared to say "oops, my bad!" if the proof should magically appear. No matter how miniscule the likelyhood.

[Awaken4e1]

There is still an ability which is given to those who ask, i.e. ‘The baptism of the Holy Spirit’ is the greatest Truth detector within Man’s heart. Its better than all the brains in the World combined!

[Ynot]

Originally posted by kimpossible
There's a third case. Those who don't believe or disbelieve, but rather require proof. In the absense of that proof through billions of claims over thousands of years, one may make a statistically accurate presumption that proof will never arrive - therefore the claim is (and will remain) false.

If the person is mature in their self-awareness, they will always be prepared to say \"oops, my bad!\" if the proof should magically appear. No matter how miniscule the likelyhood.

fair point

This was one of the points I was trying to get across in my earlier "refreshing beverages" post I made

Why can't people accept the opinions of others and agree not to fight over it
we have a common goal, no matter who's rules your following
that goal is the peace, unity and love of all mankind

does it really matter if I don't beleive
doesn't my good natured way of living, and my respect for others grant me the love of God?

[dreamtamer007]

Originally posted by kimpossible


I think reasonable and logical people can. People who attend this very forum have seen me argue a viewpoint and then back down when presented with a valid counter-argument.

On the flip-side, a friend was giving me a job reference years ago. They asked her what my biggest failing was. She said \"She does not tolerate fools well.\"

Truer words never spoken.

Evidence abounds in this thread that the notion to put Internet connectivity into mental wards and on short schoolbusses was a bad idea. dreamtamer's last post, for example.

My point was, what do you say? You repeat what another person says. What about your own opinion. The Echo I hear is "I am god" that’s as old as the hills. Did you think you where the first to say that. Lol

[Awaken4e1]

Originally posted by Ynot
serious question (honest guv).

At any one time how can you be certain it's God your serving
is it possible to be following the devil and not even know it?

Yes, without a doubt, There is a knowing which is given to those who walk in the spirit. It is a witness to our spirit that we are inline with the will of the Spirit. This witness is accompanied by Peace. Those who follow after the one they call the devil, have a proof as well, to the fact that they follow the devil, it is called Confusion.

[kimpossible]

>> that goal is the peace, unity and love of all mankind

Frankly, none of those are in my top, oh, 10 billion goals.

Dreamtamer - that's hilarious coming from you biblethumpers and your cut-and-paste dittoing of the bible. My writings are original, thanks. Yours are stale 1000yr old spoon-fed pablum.

[dreamtamer007]

Ynot was asking about serious topics. Kim you will have to answer for any of your followings. There not just followers but sensitive souls.

[Ynot]

well, maybe
but I think the devil is far more sneaky than that

the below is my own personal take of good Vs. evil

We are talking about two omnipetent beings of equal strength
one being unable to defeat the other
the falcrum of the battle is, and always has been, human belief

I say the motives of God & the Devil are impossible for us to distinguish

[dreamtamer007]

Originally posted by Ynot
well, maybe
but I think the devil is far more sneaky than that

the below is my own personal take of good Vs. evil

We are talking about two omnipetent beings of equal strength
one being unable to defeat the other
the falcrum of the battle is, and always has been, human belief

I say the motives of God & the Devil are impossible for us to distinguish
You sound like a really bright guy. I agree with what you said except I don't think the devil has any power.

[Ynot]

then why is he still around?

is god waiting to see if he repents
cause god loves all?

cause that I could actually belief (strangely enough)

[dreamtamer007]

The end is not yet
You said it before. (I say the motives of God & the Devil are impossible for us to distinguish)

[Ynot]

if the devil has no powers
and god is, unchallenged
why the lack of proof of god's existance?

what's God's plan (from a christian point of view) to keeping quiet, when he was so active during the old testiment

Originally posted by dreamtamer007
You sound like a really bright guy.
cheers mate

[dreamtamer007]

Originally posted by Ynot
if the devil has no powers
and god is, unchallenged
why the lack of proof of god's existance?

what's God's plan (from a christian point of view) to keeping quiet, when he was so active during the old testiment


cheers mate
Things did change after Jesus appeared. our point is to be like him cheers dude

[Awaken4e1]

Originally posted by dreamtamer007
Ynot was asking about serious topics. Kim you will have to answer for any of your followings. There not just followers but sensitive souls.

AMEN! Brother!

[Ynot]

one final question (it's 4am here)

I don't beleive in God (sorry)
but I live a good (you could call it christian) life

am I going to heaven or hell?

what I'm saying is
is unconditional belief required
or can I make it, just by being a decent guy?

[Awaken4e1]

Originally posted by Ynot
well, maybe
but I think the devil is far more sneaky than that

the below is my own personal take of good Vs. evil

We are talking about two omnipetent beings of equal strength
one being unable to defeat the other
the falcrum of the battle is, and always has been, human belief

I say the motives of God & the Devil are impossible for us to distinguish

First let me say, Good Post,

Let be just state the fact ‘clearly as possible, ‘the devil is NOT omnipotent.

Only God is, one of the greatest lies the devil has told is that he is as powerful as God.

For the devil to be of equal strength ‘he would have to have the power of creation, and he does not, nor has he ever.

The devil is a tool, in God’s hand nothing more, he’s God’s little pit-bull.

The balance of power has always been within Man alone.

Though he can be influenced by the devil with his lies.

P.S. God has never been challenged!, He alone is God!

[kimpossible]

Wait a sec here:

So the devil is powerless. But he has the power to influence man who holds the balance of power in a battle between the one that has no power (other than the power to influence the one that holds the balance of power) and the one that is omnipotent.

Do you guys ever read what you post? Want a "timeout" here so you two can huddle-up and get your story straight?

[TWEET!] Two minute official timeout on the field to allow the biblethumpers to get their story straight. At the conclusion, it will be 4th down and 2005-and-inches.

[Ynot]

Ok,
I'm fairly safe in the knowledge that I'm not going to toasted on a rack in hell
(unless getting hideously drunk and dancing like a moron is a mortal sin)

I don't beleive in God
but I beleive in the principles the bible tries to convey
religions major failing, in my opinion, is the often ludicrous interpretations of holy scripture that crop up from time to time

get rid of humanity and religion would work flawlessly :D

[Ynot]

Originally posted by kimpossible
Wait a sec here:

So the devil is powerless. But he has the power to influence man who holds the balance of power in a battle between the one that has no power (other than the power to influence the one that holds the balance of power) and the one that is omnipotent.

Do you guys ever read what you post? Want a \"timeout\" here so you two can huddle-up and get your story straight?

[TWEET!] Two minute official timeout on the field to allow the biblethumpers to get their story straight. At the conclusion, it will be 4th down and 2005-and-inches.
it's a common belief (across many religions) that good *could* vanguish evil
but in doing so, would be eternally corrupted
it's up to man to vanguish his own, personal evils in order for good to be triumphant

[kimpossible]

>> get rid of humanity

Damn! Excellent idea! Want to brainstorm with me on that one?

[Awaken4e1]

Here is a perfect position to clarify the devil’s power (which is given to him by God.)

Job 1:6 And the day is, that sons of God come in to station themselves by Jehovah, and there doth come also the Adversary in their midst.
(And he’s not hiding behind them)
Job 1:7 And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Whence comest thou?' And the Adversary answereth Jehovah and saith, `From going to and fro in the land,
(in us) and from walking up and down on it.'

Job 1:8 And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Hast thou set thy heart against My servant Job because there is none like him in the land, a man perfect and upright, fearing God, and turning aside from evil?'
Job 1:9 And the Adversary answereth Jehovah and saith, `For nought is Job fearing God?

Job 1:10 Hast not Thou made a hedge for him, and for his house, and for all that he hath--round about?

Job 1:11 The work of his hands Thou hast blessed, and his substance hath spread in the land, and yet, put forth, I pray Thee,(Wow, the devil praying to God) Thy hand, and strike against anything that he hath--if not: to Thy face he doth bless Thee!'

Job 1:12 And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Lo, all that he hath is in thy hand, only unto him put not forth thy hand.' And the Adversary goeth out from the presence of Jehovah.

the devil has to ask God to do anything!

The Rev.

[kimpossible]

And that common belief is based on simple observation. Nature abhors a vacuum. Not even the primitives would have bought into a concept where such is created. The balance must remain.

Further, if the "final battle" ever did happen, it would be impossible to fleece the money from the natives pockets anymore - or to use it as a hammer to keep 'em in line.

So, yes, there is some basis in reality for that balance of power.

[kimpossible]

>> a man perfect and upright

Waaait a sec here. Didn't you use that timeout I gave you for anything other than hitting the crackpipe?

I thought you guys claimed your diety was the only one "perfect" and "without sin".

And yet now we've got a bit-player showing up that is perfect and without sin, but still fearing your diety.

[Awaken4e1]

Originally posted by kimpossible
>> get rid of humanity

Damn! Excellent idea! Want to brainstorm with me on that one?

Whom shall we start with?

mmmmm? How about the evil in Man, then the problem with humanity would be solved!

[Awaken4e1]

Originally posted by kimpossible
>> a man perfect and upright

Waaait a sec here. Didn't you use that timeout I gave you for anything other than hitting the crackpipe?

I thought you guys claimed your diety was the only one \"perfect\" and \"without sin\".

And yet now we've got a bit-player showing up that is perfect and without sin, but still fearing your diety.


He is! he can't even look upon sin, that's way most of humanity is dead to his sight!

Perfect = Mature, Complete

[kimpossible]

What dictionary, what year(s)?

[Awaken4e1]

Its funny, one would that the art of eating chicken is known by all mankind?

This is the same skill that is required to receive the truth, and that is (stop picking at the truth, take what you can receive, and disregard the rest. If none of it is truth to you, then to you it is a spoiled piece of flesh, So Don’t try to eat it!

Cause you'll just spit it back in some one else's face.

[kimpossible]

So now I need to have "faith" in the definition of words that are clearly defined as having an entirely different meaning? Oh come on. That's just had to swallow.

I've said it many 'a time: I don't believe or disbelieve anything. But if you run your mouth off you open yourself to questioning. And if you make a fool of yourself, don't look to me to bail you out of it.

[kimpossible]

For the moment, I might be willing to let that slide until we see what "Strong" has up his sleeve for bias.

[Awaken4e1]

Originally posted by kimpossible
What dictionary, what year(s)?

Strong's Greek and Hebrew Dictionary 2005

[kimpossible]

I edited my post after scrolling over to see the source credited. I'll go research the lineage and qualification of "Strong". In the meantime, I'm willing to give you that one.

[Awaken4e1]

Originally posted by kimpossible
Wait a sec here:

So the devil is powerless. But he has the power to influence man who holds the balance of power in a battle between the one that has no power (other than the power to influence the one that holds the balance of power) and the one that is omnipotent.

Do you guys ever read what you post? Want a \"timeout\" here so you two can huddle-up and get your story straight?

[TWEET!] Two minute official timeout on the field to allow the biblethumpers to get their story straight. At the conclusion, it will be 4th down and 2005-and-inches.

The devil only has the power (you) give him, which is the only power God allows him to have.

The devil did not harm Job because Jod did not believe the lie the devil was selling.

[kimpossible]

But according to your lackey, the devil has no power.

[Awaken4e1]

He is powerless to those who know he devices...if you don't you wide open to his lies...

Man would rather believe a lie, than the Truth...

[Ynot]

Originally posted by Awaken4e1
Man would rather believe a lie, than the Truth...
interesting paradox you've got yourself into there :lol:

[Awaken4e1]

I'm not in it, the world is...

[Ynot]

Originally posted by Awaken4e1
I'm not in it, the world is...
I repeat my previous statement (purely to be annoying)

[kimpossible]

So how do I know you're not satan sent here to try to trick me with your lies of anti-logic and contrary meaning?

Seems like I'm best to just tell everyone to f*-off and go get drunk...

[Awaken4e1]

And I repeat:

I am not of this world, as He is not of this World.
I am in this world , but not of it...

[Ynot]

Originally posted by kimpossible
So how do I know you're not satan sent here to try to trick me with your lies of anti-logic and contrary meaning?

Seems like I'm best to just tell everyone to f*-off and go get drunk...

Oh, oh
does he have any powers?

No?

Aaarrgghhh Satan !!!

[Awaken4e1]

(K)impossible,

Have you ever noticed that the procedure of becoming possessed is shockingly similar to the process which most institution of higher learning indoctrinate their alumni with?

[kimpossible]

No - simply because possession has never been shown to exist.

Now a question for you: Did you ever notice that all turdleegurps are blue? That is substantive proof that christianity is the biggest con-game ever fostered upon mankind.

[Awaken4e1]

fostered by whom?

[Awaken4e1]

Originally posted by kimpossible
No - simply because possession has never been shown to exist.

Now a question for you: Did you ever notice that all turdleegurps are blue? That is substantive proof that christianity is the biggest con-game ever fostered upon mankind.

Just as a little refresher

There are stages to true "possession”
Follow the steps:
1. Exposure to the evil (Making own to it of your openness.)
2. Entertainment (To keep the spirit around.)
3. Engrossment (Full blow obsession of that entertainment.)
4. Emersion (The involuntary lost of one’s identity to the evil.)
5. Possession.

Involvement is only required when possession has manifested, obsession is not an actionable event, only possession is.

[kimpossible]

The churches. Which are traditionally and ultimately the enforcement arm of the governments. That's who.

---

Did you know the lifespan of the turdleegurps is only 9 quinkees long?!?!

[Awaken4e1]

the enforcement arm of the governments.[/b]

If that where true then why is the Government taking away religious freedoms from these churches? If they are their 'enforcement'?

[Universal Mind]

Originally posted by Awaken4e1


The devil only has the power (you) give him, which is the only power God allows him to have.



Allowing the devil to have power would be evil. An infinitely powerful being that is totally good would have created a universe without evil or suffering. You might reply with, "Well if God didn't allow evil and suffering, then such and such would happen..." My reply to every response of that type is, "An infinitely powerful being could change that law of reality if it were one."

[Ynot]

Originally posted by Universal Mind


Allowing the devil to have power would be evil. An infinitely powerful being that is totally good would have created a universe without evil or suffering. You might reply with, \"Well if God didn't allow evil and suffering, then such and such would happen...\" My reply to every response of that type is, \"An infinitely powerful being could change that law of reality if it were one.\"

ah ha, the age old "Why does the devil exist if god is so powerful" question
this is answered in a hell of a lot of places
Most notably in films
Star Wars & The Matrix are perfect examples

in order to give man freedom of choice
for to dictate man's actions, and restrict his freedom is, in itself, sinful
The devil needs to exist if God exists

balance of power, ying & yang, PJ & Duncan

There's no getting away from it.
For god to exist, the devil must also exist

plus, movies wouldn't be half as good without the little red bugger

[bradybaker]

Originally posted by Ynot+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ynot)</div><!--QuoteBegin-Universal Mind


Allowing the devil to have power would be evil. An infinitely powerful being that is totally good would have created a universe without evil or suffering. You might reply with, \"Well if God didn't allow evil and suffering, then such and such would happen...\" My reply to every response of that type is, \"An infinitely powerful being could change that law of reality if it were one.\"

ah ha, the age old \"Why does the devil exist if god is so powerful\" question
this is answered in a hell of a lot of places
Most notably in films
Star Wars & The Matrix are perfect examples

in order to give man freedom of choice
for to dictate man's actions, and restrict his freedom is, in itself, sinful
The devil needs to exist if God exists

balance of power, ying & yang, PJ & Duncan

There's no getting away from it.
For god to exist, the devil must also exist

plus, movies wouldn't be half as good without the little red bugger[/b]
No, no no. If God is infinitely powerful, he could change the laws of reality so that the devil is NOT needed. Get it?

[Ynot]

Cut & paste job

"Man was created for the sole purpose of rejoicing in God, and deriving pleasure from the splendor of His Presence… The place where this joy may truly be derived is the World to Come, which was expressly created to provide for it; but the path to the object of our desires is this world..." (Moshe Chaim Luzzatto, Mesillat Yesharim, Ch.1).

Free will is thus required by God's justice, “otherwise, Man would not be given or denied good for actions over which he had no control” [1]. It is further understood that in order for Man to have true free choice, he must not only have inner free will, but also an environment in which a choice between obedience and disobedience exists. God thus created the world such that both good and evil can operate freely [2]; this is the meaning of the Rabbinic maxim, "All is in the hands of Heaven except the fear of Heaven" (Talmud, Berachot 33b).


for a non-beleiver, I do a fantastic job of defending christianity
I just think it's a really interesting subject
as I said to Kim in a PM - It all started with watching He-Man as a kid

*Edit*
summarised
The devil needs to exist, so that man can reject him
because only in rejection of the devil can man reject all evil

[Universal Mind]

Originally posted by Ynot
Cut & paste job

\"Man was created for the sole purpose of rejoicing in God, and deriving pleasure from the splendor of His Presence… The place where this joy may truly be derived is the World to Come, which was expressly created to provide for it; but the path to the object of our desires is this world...\" (Moshe Chaim Luzzatto, Mesillat Yesharim, Ch.1).

Free will is thus required by God's justice, “otherwise, Man would not be given or denied good for actions over which he had no control” [1]. It is further understood that in order for Man to have true free choice, he must not only have inner free will, but also an environment in which a choice between obedience and disobedience exists. God thus created the world such that both good and evil can operate freely [2]; this is the meaning of the Rabbinic maxim, \"All is in the hands of Heaven except the fear of Heaven\" (Talmud, Berachot 33b).


for a non-beleiver, I do a fantastic job of defending christianity
I just think it's a really interesting subject
as I said to Kim in a PM - It all started with watching He-Man as a kid

*Edit*
summarised
The devil needs to exist, so that man can reject him
because only in rejection of the devil can man reject all evil

I don't think you are fully getting my point. You are using the argument I argued against ahead of time. You are saying that God HAS TO allow the devil to exist. My point is that an infinitely powerful being would not HAVE TO do anything. By definition, an infinitely powerful being would not be bound by any laws of reality. Do you see what I mean? You are arguing that an infinitely powerful being would be bound by certain laws of reality. I am saying he, by definition, would not. I am saying he could make a universe of nothing but infinitely happy beings who have free will (not that infinitely happy beings would give a damn) and all of its benefits without there being any problem with it.

Furthermore, I don't even believe in free will, but that argument is going on in plenty of other threads. Let's not get into that in this one.

As for your last paragraph, I think man would be best off without any evil to reject.

If you were the creator of existence, would you create the need for evil? I wouldn't, and I say that emphatically, and I am not 100% good.

[kimpossible]

I don't believe in good or evil.

I believe in Potential. Energy is neutral. People can decide what to do with it.

Right and Wrong and the shades in between.

I guess you'd say that I'm "Chaotic Neutral"

[Jrels]

Originally posted by kimpossible
I don't believe in good or evil.

I think every sane person has morals, whether they choose to believe it or not. Although "Good" and "Evil" can sometimes carry too much connotation of the supernatural. Perhaps you could substitute the words for "productive" and "counterproductive."

[kimpossible]

Nope. I clearly used "Right" and "Wrong".

[Awaken4e1]

Originally posted by Universal Mind


Allowing the devil to have power would be evil. *An infinitely powerful being that is totally good would have created a universe without evil or suffering. *You might reply with, \"Well if God didn't allow evil and suffering, then such and such would happen...\" *My reply to every response of that type is, \"An infinitely powerful being could change that law of reality if it were one.\"

This is who the devil, and always has been.

Isa 54:16 Lo, I--I have prepared an artisan, Blowing on a fire of coals, And bringing out an instrument for his work, And I have prepared a destroyer to destroy.

[Awaken4e1]

Originally posted by kimpossible
Hey - you have to shower somehow!

Since the church held that bathing was a sin in the middle-ages - well - there you go!

Mat 15:2 `Wherefore do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they do not wash their hands when they may eat bread.'

[Tsen]

HOLY HELL. I'm having some issues at home for the moment (religion related, coincidentally), and I can't get online quite as frequently as I'd like, but you've posted more than 7 pages in the last couple of days! I'll try and catch up, but most all of the time I get on the computer for the moment is a half hour at lunch.

[bradybaker]

Originally posted by Awaken4e1


This is who the devil, and always has been.

Isa 54:16 *Lo, I--I have prepared an artisan, Blowing on a fire of coals, And bringing out an instrument for his work, And I have prepared a destroyer to destroy.

Awaken, quoting the Bible does not count as a rebuttal to a logical contradiction present within Christianity.

The fact that the devil exists shows that God is either not all-loving, or not all-powerful. God obviously could've created a universe with no need for evil, but God chose not to, or could not.

[Ynot]

is it that hard to understand
they believe true paradise can only be acheived after actively rejecting true horror

well, whatever
this threads lost it's appeal now

[Awaken4e1]

As we all know the basic building block of learning is to know the opposite of ‘any’ given thing. One must know hate to know love. One must know unrest, to know peace, to know wont, to know contentment. God placed evil within the garden so that man could tasted of evil, and learn from the experience. So that he would be more than what he was.

[Ynot]

Originally posted by Awaken4e1
As we all know the basic building block of learning is to know the opposite of ‘any’ given thing. One must know hate to know love. One must know unrest, to know peace, to know wont, to know contentment. God placed evil within the garden so that man could tasted of evil, and learn from the experience. So that he would be more than what he was.

that's exactly what I meant

would ice-cream taste so good if you had not tasted brocolli

anyway, I'm making a firm committment not to post to this thread anymore
(I'm going to go ridicule the guy who doesn't beleif in aliens over in general discussion)

[Awaken4e1]

This :evil: + this :flyaway: = :goodjob:

[bradybaker]

Originally posted by Awaken4e1
As we all know the basic building block of learning is to know the opposite of ‘any’ given thing. One must know hate to know love. One must know unrest, to know peace, to know wont, to know contentment. God placed evil within the garden so that man could tasted of evil, and learn from the experience. So that he would be more than what he was.
Those are all LAWS OF THE REALITY WE LIVE IN. An all-powerful diety could've easily created an existence in which we can know peace without knowing unrest, where we can know love and not know hate. That's the point!!!!!! God can do whatever the fuck he wants!!! He is NOT bound by the "learning by opposites" model you present.

You mention the "basic building block of learning". God could've made that basic building block anything she wanted. The fact that God chose to create the need for evil, shows that God is NOT all-loving. Or NOT all-powerful.

Why is this so difficult to understand?

[dreamtamer007]

Originally posted by bradybaker

Those are all LAWS OF THE REALITY WE LIVE IN. An all-powerful diety could've easily created an existence in which we can know peace without knowing unrest, where we can know love and not know hate. That's the point!!!!!! God can do whatever the fuck he wants!!! He is NOT bound by the \"learning by opposites\" model you present. *

You mention the \"basic building block of learning\". God could've made that basic building block anything she wanted. The fact that God chose to create the need for evil, shows that God is NOT all-loving. Or NOT all-powerful.

Why is this so difficult to understand?
There we go again. Smarter then God. Knowing Christians more then we do. In the first place God created the angles and Lucifer was one of them. He, like some of you thought he was smarter then God and knew how things should be and even tried to take Gods place of power. With his free will he turned against God to try and be God. Does that sound like anyone here in this forum?

[spoon]

Maybe some nice mod could split this side-topic off? It doesn't really fit

Originally posted by awaken
This is who the devil, and always has been.

Isa 54:16 Lo, I--I have prepared an artisan, Blowing on a fire of coals, And bringing out an instrument for his work, And I have prepared a destroyer to destroy.

That quote being about the devil is a bit far fetched. The only reference to \"lucifer\" in isaiah is a mistranslation (latin word in a hebrew text?) and a misinterpretation (actually read isaiah 14 - it is clearly talking about an earthly king - the king of babylon).

But lets just ignore that. God is still responsible for the creation of the devil - and by extension everything he does. And you can't claim evil as a sole product of free will as:

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].[/b]

There's no wiggle room here. God created evil. He could have just chosen not to.

As we all know the basic building block of learning is to know the opposite of ‘any’ given thing. One must know hate to know love. One must know unrest, to know peace, to know wont, to know contentment. God placed evil within the garden so that man could tasted of evil, and learn from the experience. So that he would be more than what he was. [/b]

1. Knowing the opposite does not entail performing the opposite. I'm sure my parents never took a life to learn how to make one.

2. Why did god not just create man \"more than he was\" in the first place? Why need the fall from eden? Infinite power allows for anything. Why not create good and evil, give man in innate knowledge of both - but a predisposition to only perform good.

3. If evil is a requirement for good - why is evil punished by god? With no evil there would be no good, and god obviously doesn't want that. Evil/sinners are performing a vital function, allowing people to get to heaven, and should be rewarded under this scheme as much as the good.

There we go again. Smarter then God. Knowing Christians more then we do.[/b] This isn't an issue of trying to be smarter than god - all brady/universal was doing (and I guess I just did) is point out an inconsistancy in your concept of god.

The problem of evil doesn't require you to \"think you're smarter than god\" or whatever, its just a logical conclusion to evil being in a world created by an omni-everything deity.

And you completely dodged the question.

In the first place God created the angles and Lucifer was one of them. He, like some of you thought he was smarter then God and knew how things should be and even tried to take Gods place of power. With his free will he turned against God to try and be God.[/b]

I love how christians tell stories like these and don't bother to read into them. Sure, it sends a nice little message "don't piss off god like lucifer" but it also wrecks the whole vision of the christian heaven:

If lucifer (who was in heaven) rebelled than heaven is not a perfect place and allows sin, so why is it a desirable place?

So anyway, this story is good news for unbelievers. If christianity is true there's still an avenue for rebellion. Go the underdogs!

-spoon

[dreamtamer007]

Originally posted by spoon



I love how christians tell stories like these and don't bother to read into them. Sure, it sends a nice little message \"don't piss off god like lucifer\" but it also wrecks the whole vision of the christian heaven:

If lucifer (who was in heaven) rebelled than heaven is not a perfect place and allows sin, so why is it a desirable place?

-spoon
It says he was thrown out of heaven.
You guys keep making up stuff and think that’s what we believe. God created the heavens not heaven. Jesus said I go to prepare a place for you. Wouldn’t you like him to say that to you?
.
I’ll say it again, Evolution is bull crap and there is no scientific proof of it. It IS a religion.

[spoon]

Originally posted by dreamtamer007
It says he was thrown out of heaven.
You guys keep making up stuff and think that’s what we believe. God created the heavens not heaven. Jesus said I go to prepare a place for you. Wouldn’t you like him to say that to you?

It says he was thrown out of heaven for rebelling against god. Which shouldn't be possible in a perfect place.

Oh, and on the topic of heaven being perfect/without sin. If heaven is perfect/without sin, do people have free will there? If so, why is it possible for the problem of evil to be overcome there and not here? If not, why should anyone want to go to a place where they are completely controlled?

God didn't create heaven? :shock:

(ETA: and you're still dodging the question!)

[bradybaker]

Rev, if you're still with us, go back to the last page and read mine and spoon's posts. I'd really like to hear your response.

Please try to avoid quoting the bible and using 47 words when 6 will suffice.

[Awaken4e1]

I think that the whole purpose of creating evil is still unknown to the majority of mankind, so therefore man still considers it to be some kind of mistake on God’s part.

‘It is not mistake, God made the devil to bring out all of man’s ugly carnal nature to reveal it unto him, so he can see what it took to bring him through the experience of evil, and then at the end possess have an understanding for himself what is the gift which God had given him at the cross.

God does not what robots to serve Him, He want creatures who love Him, not out of fear, but from a genuine love from Father to son. So at the end of our walk through evil we will have had a benefit from going though it, and not being removed from it. As the ole’ adage says ‘So what doesn’t kill you makes you better.’

The Rev.

[Awaken4e1]

There is a ‘term’ in the bible which is used to describe to one who overcomes all that this world can throw at them. That ‘term’ is coincidentally ‘The Overcomer’ It is said that this ‘one’ who is a group of many who fulfill the word and stand through all of their tests, without faltering.

The Overcomer has to overcome evil, the devil, just as Jesus did.So there has to be evil for him to overcome?’ Right, This is the purpose of evil, ‘to bring man unto a higher state of being though faith and through the fulfillment of God’s promise to him.

The Rev.

[spoon]

God does not what robots to serve Him,[/b]

Can you sin in heaven? If no, then he does want robots to serve him. If yes it isn't perfect, and why were we wanting to go there?

This is the purpose of evil, ‘to bring man unto a higher state of being though faith and through the fulfillment of God’s promise to him.[/b]

If there exists a state higher than our current state then we were not designed by an omnipotent/omniscient deity.

Lets step it out logically:

----------------

Omnipotence allows for the best possible design at a given time.
Omniscience allows for all of time to be known at a given time.
Omniscience/Omnipotence allows for the best possible design, out of all of time, at a given time.

Therefore we were designed by an omnipotent/omniscient being if our current state is greater than every other state.

The purpose of evil is to "bring a man unto a higher state". In other words: state + evil = state++

Therefore there exists a state (state++) which is greater than state.

Therefore we were not designed by an omnipotent/omniscient being.

---------------

The only thing I can see wrong with that is state + evil might be better as evil(state) = state++

-spoon

[kimpossible]

Originally posted by spoon


The only thing I can see wrong with that is state + evil might be better as evil(state) = state++

-spoon

Regardless of whether it is defined as state + evil or evil(state) -- your proof would hold true, would it not?

Nice work on that! Two *very* large thumbs-up from the peanut gallery!

[Awaken4e1]

One would think that with all theses so called ‘logical thinkers’ in here, I don’t even understand why the concept of fundamental learning escapes their though process. Every (human) must learn through attempts, and failures.

Through success which is the good, and to fail is to bring into the experience of the negative, or as it is called evil. While we where yet children we needed some one to take us by the hand, and led us around, because we where not experienced in the fundamental balance of right and wrong, light and dark, good and evil.

This is why God told Man ‘of the tree of the knowledge… don’t eat of it’ because your experience is too limited to be able to handle it. God has given every man the inherent ability to correct his mistakes. But it takes trial and error. It was God’s sole purpose in the garden to expose Man to evil so that he would have a balanced experience within his being, but up to that point in Man’s experience Man was only half perfected, knowing not evil, with which he needed to balance himself.

God even stated in no uncertain terms ‘Lo, the man was as one of Us, as to the knowledge of good and evil; and now, lest he send forth his hand, and have taken also of the tree of life, and eaten, and lived to the age,' So this ongoing dispute about the reason for evil, and who is to blame for the condition of this world rests solely on the shoulders of Man himself. God has given Man to tools to make this Earth a Paradise but he takes the gift God has given him and wasted it because of unbelief.

The Rev.

[Placebo]

Spoon:

If God (should he exist) created a perfect, timeless solution, would it be able to make it's own free willed choices for good or bad ?
It both can't and won't change. It's already perfect and need not change, and even if it could, it does not experience the framework of time to change within.

In order to create at least the perception of free will, you have to create a solution that moves towards it's own perfection, by it's own choices, and within a consecutive framework of 'time'. Each individual would lend it's choices to the greater whole, leading to the ultimate solution.
This is where genetic evolution makes perfect sense to me.

If time was missing, the creature would be in a fixed state resulting in no real free will. It would be a robot.

And if it was perfect from the beginning, it would need no changes, and thus the idea of 'free will' would be moot. It would be just as it was created, no more no less. No chance to change.

So surely it would make sense to have the perfect solution of creatures obtained through the course of time, by their own choices and interaction with environment ?

Forgive me if this makes little sense, I'm not feeling particularly well today :)

[Universal Mind]

The point is still being missed, big time. I have a question that will get to the heart of things. If the theists in this discussion will answer one question, things will be much clearer (And PLEASE give a yes/no answer before elaborating. Thanks.)...

The question: Is God bound by any law or laws of reality?

[InTheMoment]

Originally posted by Awaken4e1
One would think that with all theses so called ‘logical thinkers’ in here, I don’t even understand why the concept of fundamental learning escapes their though process. Every (human) must learn through attempts, and failures.
The Rev.
Only because god made it that way...which he didn't have to do, being all omnipotent and everything. He could have just as easily constructed man to adhere to his original plan, even in the face of temptation.

It was God’s sole purpose in the garden to expose Man to evil so that he would have a balanced experience within his being, but up to that point in Man’s experience Man was only half perfected, knowing not evil, with which he needed to balance himself. [/b]
God's \"perfect\" creation succumbed to evil. That fact acknowledges that man was either, not created in perfection or that evil trumped good and there was nothing god could do to prevent evil from doing so.

Maybe god should have read the creation manual a bit closer, especially the section about exposing man to evil when only half perfected. :shakehead2:

God does not what robots to serve Him, He want creatures who love Him, not out of fear, but from a genuine love from Father to son.[/b]
That is why he threatens, those that don't love him, with eternal damnation in Hell's fire. :sweat2:

It is not mistake, God made the devil to bring out all of man’s ugly carnal nature to reveal it unto him, so he can see what it took to bring him through the experience of evil, and then at the end possess have an understanding for himself what is the gift which God had given him at the cross. [/b]
So this IS all just a big game...or maybe a saddistic experiment by god.

Spoon wrote:
If there exists a state higher than our current state then we were not designed by an omnipotent/omniscient deity. [/b]
Can you sin in heaven? If no, then he does want robots to serve him. If yes it isn't perfect, and why were we wanting to go there? [/b]
Two fabulous points! I just hope that these points don't go unanswered, like your previous points have in the past.

[Ynot]

Originally posted by Universal Mind
The point is still being missed, big time. I have a question that will get to the heart of things. If the theists in this discussion will answer one question, things will be much clearer (And PLEASE give a yes/no answer before elaborating. Thanks.)...

The question: Is God bound by any law or laws of reality?

Yes.

however this is the personal opinion of an open minded atheist

God (and the devil, for that matter) are bound by the laws that man sets down.

- All men are capable of good and evil
- The collective amount of good across the whole of the human population can be brought together into one lump, we call god
- Same for the collective evil

God and the devil are man-made entities, whose sole purpose is to graphically illustrate the joys of decent living, and the torment of selfish living

God and the devil are bound by our laws - the laws we make
These laws will (and have) changed over time
God and the devil will change to reflect that

in my opinion, anyway
over to the Rev. :)

[Universal Mind]

Originally posted by Ynot+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ynot)</div><!--QuoteBegin-Universal Mind
The point is still being missed, big time. I have a question that will get to the heart of things. If the theists in this discussion will answer one question, things will be much clearer (And PLEASE give a yes/no answer before elaborating. Thanks.)...

The question: Is God bound by any law or laws of reality?

Yes.

[/b]

Then, by definition, he is not infinitely powerful.

[Ynot]

Originally posted by Universal Mind


Then, by definition, he is not infinitely powerful.

I've said all along "HE" (god) doesn't exist

[Universal Mind]

Originally posted by Ynot


I've said all along \"HE\" (god) doesn't exist

I know, but you have been playing devil's advocate. You stopped playing it right at the point where I was looking most forward to your response.

[Tsen]

I’ll say it again, Evolution is bull crap and there is no scientific proof of it. It IS a religion. [/b]

So we're back to this. Now, you've just walked into a very solid and formidable wall here. Evolution IS scientifically proven. Through countless observations of species over the ages, we've witnessed evolution. Not large-scale evolution, nothing along the lines of microscopic life growing into apes, but we HAVE watched evolution in smaller scales.
Just a random example: Straight hair is a genetic abnormality that eventually became the norm. Originally, a few hundred years ago, people had all curly hair. Straight hair was a genetic abnormality that tended to be a dominant trait which had no effect on the survival or reproduction of the species. Therefore, over time, straight hair became more common than curly hair.

Evolution has been observed countless times. Not only that, it follows a logical process. If some gene causes trouble reproducing or surviving, that gene isn't going to be passed on. Therefore, later generations will not have that gene.


Now, back to the God issue. You're being pretty close minded. Obviously, Christian religion isn't something that mankind was meant to speculate on, only believe in. THAT, in itself, makes me choose not to have anything to do with it.

Now, here's something for you. You seem intent on quoting scripture. Well, how's this. How many times does the Old Testament speak literally? It is full of metaphors. What's to say that the creation isn't one of them? This could quite possibly be YOUR error in misinterpreting the Bible. What's to say God didn't think that evolution was a damn good way to bring about his finest creation?

[Awaken4e1]

Originally posted by Placebo
Spoon:

If God (should he exist) created a perfect, timeless solution, would it be able to make it's own free willed choices for good or bad ?
In order to create at least the perception of free will, you have to create a solution that moves towards it's own perfection, by it's own choices, and within a consecutive framework of 'time'.
If time was missing, the creature would be in a fixed state resulting in no real free will.

And if it was perfect from the beginning, it would need no changes, and thus the idea of 'free will' would be moot.

So surely it would make sense to have the perfect solution of creatures obtained through the course of time, by their own choices and interaction with environment ?

Forgive me if this makes little sense, I'm not feeling particularly well today :)

Thou wilt say, then, to me, `Why yet doth He find fault? for His counsel who hath resisted?'
nay, but, O man, who art thou that art answering again to God? shall the thing formed say to Him who did form it , Why me didst thou make thus?
hath not the potter authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make the one vessel to honour, and the one to dishonour?
And if God, willing to shew the wrath and to make known His power, did endure, in much long suffering, vessels of wrath fitted for destruction,
and that He might make known the riches of His glory on vessels of kindness, that He before prepared for glory, whom also He did call--us--

From this I think it is clear the whole 'free will' issue...

[Awaken4e1]

I will try breaking this down as succinctly as I can.
1. God made man with a void in his center.
2. So, that he will desire to learn, what goes in that center?
3. God wants man to gain from his experience of the natural realm.
4. So, that man will mature from the bondage of his natural mind.
5. God guides man through all the evil which he experiences, giving him wisdom.
6. So, that man will stand in the same realm, which God stands in (eternity.)
7. God put Man in the realm of limitation, so he would overcome it, and to gain from the experience so that he would not take for granted anything which God has given him, which is everything!

The Rev.

[zipperhead]

Originally posted by dreamtamer007
Actually I don’t have a problem with evolution. It is possible that a creator created everything as we know it and evolution is a part of it. It’s just the people that talk about the big bang and evolution as if they appeared out of nothing like magic with no creator. I think they are the ones that have a problem.


Finally!

I have been waiting since 1990 to hear someone who can comprehend

that logic.
What's sad is I haven't found anyone to date who's read what was one of

the hottest topics Omni magizine had reported on in I think fall of 1990.

That would have been the issue in which scientists announced they were

very close to being able to prove that there was/is indeed a creator.

That's all I have to say about it other than I will not follow the thread as i

have seen the existence of some
sickening , and malicious attacks to others over the
simple fact that they do not agree or think they have more knowledge

than another.

Let alone the threat of what may go on if one comments on creationism!
Pathetic. I believed there were living persons on the other end here.

I guess some would comment that it's just the internet and we should be

happy they are only pressing keys and not a trigger, instead.

I have some agnostic friends, and have actually had intelligent

conversations with them about this very subject . What was always

interesting as a point was that the laws of physics and science books

have had to change over the years.

Niether of us doubted that would , or could happen again at least. We

also didn't speak so sadistically to one another that it literally proved the

existence of evil, or hinted that one of us literally believed we were better

than the other.

I am so far from perfect I can't even tell it, here.
I have said way too much already going on what I have seen. I only

wanted to say what was in the first paragraph that I wrote. The rest I have

no excuse for, and I apoligize if I insulted anyone here.

[dreamtamer007]

[quote]
Thank you, I'm done.

[Tsen]

You forgot to close the bracket on the quote tag, could you edit it please?

Anyway, there's bashing being done on BOTH sides. EXTENSIVELY on both sides. It'd be nice if people would actually READ people's posts and counter IDEAS rather than bashing PEOPLE. If they'd do so, everyone would realize that on BOTH sides there's questions that've been asked with no answers given, and questions that have already be asked are being asked again, with nothing new in the mix...

ARGH.

By the way, some scientists may be close to discovering/proving a creator, but it isn't really mainstream, and plenty are claiming to have proved a creator with no backing evidence. So, since it'd be hard to find a credible alternative article, could I have a link to the one you found or possibly a scanned in version of it?

[kimpossible]

I already proved there isn't in another thread.

[Ex Nine]

So, if there is no creator, then Kim is not the creator.

Ha ha! I found the proof! :)

[Placebo]

Originally posted by Tsen
Anyway, there's bashing being done on BOTH sides. EXTENSIVELY on both sides. It'd be nice if people would actually READ people's posts and counter IDEAS rather than bashing PEOPLE.
Yeah, wouldn't that be swell :shakehead2:
I think I'm gonna have to start bashing heads if the bashing doesn't calm down :P

[Universal Mind]

Originally posted by Ex Nine
So, if there is no creator, then Kim is not the creator.

Ha ha! I found the proof! :)

Kim is not the creator? Okay, then I have a question for you. How did we get here? What, you can't give a full, definite answer to that? Then that proves Kim is the creator.

[InTheMoment]

Originally posted by Universal Mind


Kim is not the creator? Okay, then I have a question for you. How did we get here? What, you can't give a full, definite answer to that? Then that proves Kim is the creator.
I'm sold! Now what form of worship is required to praise her glory?

[Universal Mind]

Originally posted by InTheMoment

I'm sold! Now what form of worship is required to praise her glory?

Kimism. The five tenets of Kimism are...

1. No salad!
2. You must face Neptune every Tuesday at sunset and dance.
3. You must love everyone, but kill them if they don't worship Kim.
4. Once in your life, you must try to drown yourself in the Red Sea. If you live, it means you are an infidel and will dig ditches for eternity.
5. You must accept Kim's infinite love. If you don't, you will be put in time out in a freezer until you do.

[kimpossible]

Same as any other deity...

Money and Trinkets **


** Where "Trinkets" are defined as precious or occassionally semi-precious stones, jewelry, etc. You can calculate to a fairly high degree the amount of favor you'll curry by the valuation of the trinket or money. Please, no credit cards under $300. But I am a Modern Goddess and do accept PayPal and Bidpay. Unlike many of the worthless religions that take out TV commercials and pass around a plate (how gauche!) - I'm a 21st Century Goddess (in addition to being timeless)


See how these things get out-of-hand?

I basically have one tenant: Give me money -eerrrr, I mean "worship me".

Instead it ends up being all this "universal love" and "drown yourself" crap.


And for those about to get smited for noting that I've observed that there isn't a god(dess) - have you ever thought that maybe I'm testing your faith? If I claim not to exist, but you still properly worship me, then obviously your faith is high which curries favor.

[Awaken4e1]

I think the worship of things over people is what has gotten man is the state that he is now in,and some what to Profligate even ferther.

[Ex Nine]

Originally posted by kimpossible
And for those about to get smited for noting that I've observed that there isn't a god(dess) - have you ever thought that maybe I'm testing your faith? If I claim not to exist, but you still properly worship me, then obviously your faith is high which curries favor.

No, I show my faith by listening.

[Awaken4e1]

One must have faith in order for 'it' to be tested...

[Ex Nine]

Testing? Awaken... did you just mention a scientific concept for knowing God?

[Ex Nine]

Does that same discernment help you teleport to the sick and heal them?

[Awaken4e1]

There is not a need to, they will be healed where ever they are, even around the world.

[Ex Nine]

No need to? They might disagree with you. I'm getting sick just thinking what you said.

Perhaps we should get rid of medical science altogether. There's no need for it.


Pray that your God helps you, Awaken. Because he's not doing it now.

[Universal Mind]

Can anybody disprove the existence of invisible fairies?

[Ex Nine]

Originally posted by Universal Mind
Can anybody disprove the existence of invisible fairies?

If we are clear and unambiguous about what fairies are, then, yes, there's a chance.

And I know where you're going with this. For some ideas, check out...

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/product-d...2635905-0944906 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/product-description/1591021200/102-2635905-0944906)

But, then, you probably won't find it interesting if you are not interested.

[Awaken4e1]

Good reference,

But the most provable fact of God's existence is 'Faith' which by definition is the substance of things not seen.

[TygrHawk]

Originally posted by Awaken4e1
to perform the needed function, ‘to breathe in a liquid environment,’ until the formation of lungs which I might add also breathe liquid until the child is birthed.

So you don't have a basic understanding of biology, either? As spoon already pointed out, babies do not "breathe" in the womb. That's why they smack 'em when they are born -- to get them to cry and start breathing. In the womb, oxygen is provided through the umbilical cord.

But I suppose you'll argue that this is only a "theory", and since it doesn't fit in with your belief system, must be untrue. :roll:

[kimpossible]

Originally posted by TygrHawk

But I suppose you'll argue that this is only a \"theory\", and since it doesn't fit in with your belief system, must be untrue. :roll:

That would be entirely too clear and unequivocal. It might even smack of a grasp of the English language.

So obviously you're giving credit where it's not due. Sorry!

[InTheMoment]

Originally posted by Awaken4e1+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Awaken4e1)</div>Good reference,

But the most provable fact of God's existence is 'Faith' which by definition is the substance of things not seen.[/b]
For the 8th time (yes, I've been counting), could you please answer this: (in a direct and coherent method, por favor)

<!--QuoteBegin-Spoon
You statement of \"faith is proof for god\" is deceptively simple. What you're really saying is \"my faith is proof for my particular god and is better than the faith of any religious person who doesn't share my belief \". Monotheism implies atheism in all but one god. Why is faith such a strong proof for your particular deity (and probably even your particular interpretation of your deity) but no proof at all for the myriad of other deities? What makes a christian's faith more compelling evidence than a hindu's?

-spoon

[bradybaker]

to perform the needed function, ‘to breathe in a liquid environment,’ until the formation of lungs which I might add also breathe liquid until the child is birthed.[/b]

HAHA

[Tsen]

Heh, just remembered this episode of the Simpsons:

Originally posted by Superintendant Chamers
Religion has no place in public schools the way facts have no place in organized religion.

You've gotta admit, he's got a point there.

[dreamtamer007]

Originally posted by Tsen
Heh, just remembered this episode of the Simpsons:

Superintendant Chamers wrote: *
Religion has no place in public schools the way facts have no place in organized religion. *


You've gotta admit, he's got a point there.
I don't know what country you are from but Abraham Lincoln (considered the father of our country) said without the bible all other books are useless.
Also said:
In regard to this Great Book, I have but to say, it is the best gift God has given to man. All the good the Savior gave to the world was communicated through this book." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume VII, (September 7, 1864), p. 542.

[kimpossible]

I remember it from ." The Collected DELUSIONS of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume VII, (September 7, 1864), p. 542.

But perhaps I'm misremembering the title. The sentiment certainly remains.

[AirRick101]

Oh, I can't wait for her response.

[kimpossible]

Alternate answer:

Besides, I talked to Mary about that god-loves-you-thing and what she told me was that he wasn't all that great. Premature ejaculation, none of the penetration, all of the preggers. Then he split and she had to try to tell her hubby it was his. But obviously he knew better. She was allegedly a virgin. (shaw, right!) He stuck around for the sake of the kid, but it didn't matter. The kid, a pathological liar, got himself into all kinds of trouble with the law, and was eventually executed.

Naw, I'd prefer not to know about this god-love thing first hand.

[Rakkantekimusouka]

Originally posted by dreamtamer007
Get behind me satin
The antichrist is a pair of drapes? :rolllaugh:

Anyway -- how come you're now refusing to acknowledge something in the Bible that you've been dry-humping for pages upon pages? Only care to excerpt it when it's convenient for your point, huh? That's called dishonesty. I believe there's something about that in the so-called "good book" as well.

[Tsen]

Then let it bite me. It turns me on in an odd way...

[Nirvana Starseed]

By the way I'm sure you have all herd the saying of man being made in the likeness of god? It was mentioned here in this thread I think. In gods image?

If I am made in gods image. Than what else could I be? but gods image!
not the devils image. Not humanitys image, not the animals of the earths image......gods image.....

We are all one. Why do you not see? That I am in you and you are in me.

Could there ever be 2 sources of all existence? No, even that is basic mathematics.

I am in my father and my father is in me. No-one goes to the father, but through me. And those who have seen the father have seen me. Those who do not know the father, do not know me.

[Nirvana Starseed]

die[/b]

I will never die because I am the truth and the way. My words shall not pass away. This is from the holy spirit within me. I rely not on the arm of flesh. Cursed are those that do. But blessed are those that love me and so obey what I command. Through their faith they will know me. It is that which does the works but not me of myself. I do not my will but the will of the father. For of myself I can do nothing.

I am the light of the world and all who follow me belong to me.

[Rakkantekimusouka]

Originally posted by Nirvana Starseed
Funny you should say this considering how you have responded to most posts.
Staashiido, why have you turned to the nutter side recently? :wtf: Kim has been making sense, it's you three that haven't, least of all Awaken -- did the Revster brainwash you privately or something?

In case you missed her point as well, she was referring to the points of others while d-tamer mentioned something about a point she had made, thus completely missing her point, which was that she hadn't made a point.

Understand now?

[kimpossible]

And here I thought I must be speaking another language and loosing my audience.. Thank you for saving me from banging my head against this monitor, Mu!

(or for those on the short bus: ^^^ What ^^^ she ^^^ said ^^^.)

[kimpossible]

I am home, thanks. Kickin' back, just got out of the hottub a little bit ago. Comcast digital music set for soft jazz, a good glass of wine, and a comfy recliner on my sectional, feet up and the laptop, predictably, on my lap.

None of which changes your contention having been shown to be wrong minded any large but finite number of times in a similar number of ways.


Or to sum it up for you: Restating your initial bullshit doesn't make it any more right than it was 25 pages ago. You remind me of my dog - and not in any of the positive ways.

"Thor! Put that down!" "Ok. How about now?" "No" "ok, how about now?" "no" "ok, how about now?"


[ Unnecessary personal insult #1 removed - Moderator ]

[OpheliaBlue]

lol this so reminds me of me and my best friend Stephanie in college when we would debate something

would go something like this:

Stephanie: Hey Lisa, what's the name of this band we're listening to?
Me: Uhhh...gotta be Led Zeppelin?
Steph: nope, guess again
Me: Hrmm...sure it's not Led Zeppelin?
Steph: I'm sure, listen to the lyrics
Me: I'm pretty sure it's Led Zeppelin
Steph: Come on, you know this, now listen to the guitarist!
Me: LED ZEPPLIN!!!!
Steph: Sorry, no. And shouting it repeatedly doesn't make it any more correct.


It was like Pink Floyd or something :P

Anyway, that part about shouting it repeatedly really stuck with me

[AirRick101]

Talking louder doesn't make anybody sound more convincing, and the people who fall victim to that are even stupider. I especially dislike the preachers on pedestrals who think they can convert to the degree of terror in their voice.

Intelligent response relies on fact as much as possible. Well, shouting it loud enough and saying it enough doesn't work usually, except in Hitler's case.

Kim, I figure you'd sound a little more relaxed after that hottub, dayam, I haven't done that in a while. Could it get any better?... (thinking about being in tub with girl) ok, I retract my previous statement.

Dreamtamer, you are making a friggin fool of yourself. I don't know which one you worked with first, preachy or egotistical, but you are shifting back and forth. You give popular Bible one-liners designed to touch the emotions of people, and when you are aggravated, you tell them to get a life while insulting their intelligence, whilst a second ago you were "offering" them one. But it's no surprise, I can understand.

This argument is getting even hotter, and I accidently burned my pop tarts too long when it was burning.
[ Yes, and you're not helping. Don't push your luck please - Moderator ]

[kimpossible]

Oh yeah, I'm very relaxed.

[Awaken4e1]

Originally posted by Nirvana Starseed
die

I will never die because I am the truth and the way. My words shall not pass away. This is from the holy spirit within me. I rely not on the arm of flesh. Cursed are those that do. But blessed are those that love me and so obey what I command. Through their faith they will know me. It is that which does the works but not me of myself. I do not my will but the will of the father. For of myself I can do nothing.

I am the light of the world and all who follow me belong to me.[/b]

Very nicely versed, once again!:bravo:

[Nirvana Starseed]

Here is another chart. I know what mine mean..........

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b164/NirvanaStarseed/chart4.gif

[spoon]

Originally posted by dreamtamer007
According to the theory of evolution if we keep driving automobiles long enough soon we will sprout turn signals. ... If your mate lives right around the corner the turn signals will help you get there to reproduce. Think about it

As kim said, people have been pointing out this is wrong for 20 pages. Saying "you-too" is an awesome rebuttal by the way. If you have a serious point that's not just repeating your first post ad nauseum by all means, bring it up. But until then, you have been proven wrong on this belief. Are you sure this isn't a joke again?

And nirvana, what possible reason could you have for that spam? Who posted a chart?

[Universal Mind]

Originally posted by dreamtamer007

I don't know what country you are from but Abraham Lincoln (considered the father of our country) said without the bible all other books are useless.
Also said:
In regard to this Great Book, I have but to say, it is the best gift God has given to man. All the good the Savior gave to the world was communicated through this book.\" The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume VII, (September 7, 1864), p. 542.

George Washington is "the father of our country". He was the top American general in the Revolutionary war, he was one of the authors of the Constitution, and he was our first president. Lincoln was the 16th president.