The purpose and power of Religion

[Nirvana Starseed]

What is the point of Religion? Is it completely useless, even damaging? Should it be discarded altogether? What is the real power behind it? Why does it continue to be used?

Lincon said that anyone that does not respect religion and its purpose he would be afraid to place in office. This is because Religion does have a very strong purpose and power behind it. That is vital to a societys existence and well being functioning. That fact can be observed in the world today. There is many religions that influence our society. And expecially individual lives. It is like a guidline base, that people can go to within that society.

The problem with our society is the guidline base that is percieved, lets take one of the main religions christianity, is way behind the society itself in it's understanding. So you have an isolation of christianity for misguided but well meaning people. And no base for normal people? This starts to create the perception in the average joe that religion must be a gay side issue that must not be touched. The only thing they can follow is the societys general beliefs as their guidline, which is the elusive religion denied. They would prefer to think there is no religion present and to deny the effects existence in their society. because of what they have experienced and association from the shadow religions. Yet a unlabeled religion of that society prevails even when it is denied. They do not understand how behind in the times the other religions are. And because the religion is so wealthy and established, it has the ability to continue to be taught with enough effect to survive and produce some positive effect for alot of people. The average joe is convinced that all religion is an illusional indulgence of people who have it wrong with too much confidence.

This is not a correct perception of religion.

Religion Is suppose to be like a nation. It has it's own identity and power of faith to produce works. It leads the people and creates order. The ranks of the people in the religion are supose to be fit for the position.

For an example. America is a nation.
It has its own government, and morals and rules, which it follows. It carries out its own agenda trying to help others and the world, with its own understanding and trying to do the best they can in general. This cannot be said for all of the people in america ofcourse. But that is the general idea.

America says "In god we trust"
But this does not necessarily have anything to do with the christian religion which is oddly a part of the american nations identity. Here we see the seperation from one religion that is not thought of as a religion, and one clear definite religion that is way behind in the times that does not fit the society, yet is cearly clinged onto by many and thought of as a spiritual base, simply because they are at a loss to see the real religious authority, because it is denied as "religion" or that anything of that nature is present or needs to be present. they are emerged in this yet look for something outside it such as christianity to fill some sort of gap in this denile of it.


How many people agree and understand Americas statement "In god we trust".
What does it stand for? How many people even know what god is?

The purpose of a decent religion is simple. It worships what works, It teaches the people the truth, praises it and is thankful for it. It gives them support. And it holds society together. Many people do not understand that our education system is a part of the societys religion. (the one not seen as such, denied and isolated from the behind the times elevated shell shadow religions)

Ofcourse You can have an evil religion, or a good religion. A good religion will produce good works. A evil religion will produce nothing but damage. A ignorant religion will priduce a bit of both.

However religion is used, It is clear that is has a definite power, not its outside form, but inside, and its power needs to be respected and understood.

[Universal Mind]

Take the personality disordered God and eternal torture stuff out of it, and I will have a whole lot less of a problem with it. It does serve some good purposes, and that is why I do not debate it in situations that are not about debating it, but the God with Narcissistic Personality Disorder who needs to go to anger management meetings and who didn't get enough attention from his parents is a horrible concept. I think that stuff can be very damaging.

[Nirvana Starseed]

That is the "behind the times, backwards, evil, and or ignorant" aspect I was talking about. That aspect is damaging I agree. It is mostly a projection of humanitys consciousness onto god that created that perception. The religious aspect is like a corporation in its power so its not easily dispelled, even when people have evolved to the point where most realize the truth about it. In addition it has some extra false authority behind it to give it more life to survive.

Some people worship this kind of false authority, not just in these religions but from people coming from a position who claim to know, and teach things that are not accurate.

This is actually what is truly and originally meant in the bible by "the mark of the beast"

False authority.

[Ynot]

Originally posted by Nirvana Starseed
What is the point of Religion?

Historically.....
Control over a large number of people
Laws and society codes deal quite well with moral issues of right and wrong

but nothing will unite a nation of people (from king down to nobelman down to pauper) like religion can
In times of need (invasion of your kingdom) religion pulls everyone together

it keeps the farmers from thinking
\"Hang on, I'll still be plowing my field even if there is different people living in the castle, cause people need food\"
instead they think
\"Heathen scum, I'll brain you with my pitchfork for invading our land\"

it puts the nobelmen's minds at rest
\"God damn, I'm second cousin to the king and 5th in-line for succession
if those invaders win, and I'm still alive, I'll be a pauper\"

Originally posted by Nirvana Starseed+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Nirvana Starseed)</div>Is it completely useless, even damaging?[/b]

It's outdated, as you say
but still serves it's uses

Originally posted by Nirvana Starseed+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Nirvana Starseed)</div>Should it be discarded altogether?[/b]

Would it make any difference in this day and age?
probably not

<!--QuoteBegin-Nirvana Starseed@
What is the real power behind it?

Apart from numbers?
Wealth, status and land ownership

<!--QuoteBegin-Nirvana Starseed
Why does it continue to be used?

Wealth, status and land ownership

[Nirvana Starseed]

nu uh. Thats how some people take advantage of Religion. Like I mentioned. The outside form of it. But I am talking about its real power. Which comes not from material wealth. But from within.

It is not possible to rid society of religion. A society always has some form of religion, or spiritual guidlines, knowledge and collective understanding followed.

Saying it would make no difference without religion does not make sense. Because it is not possible.

It Is like our society not using banks or money. You don't see a bank in the middle of the forest with no people. Anymore than you would see a society without a religion. They just go together. A bank belongs to a society with money. And trees belong to a forest. A religion does not belong to a forest.

So do you think it would make a difference if there was no trees in a forest. Then it would not be a forest. And if there was no Religion in a society. It would not be a society.

[kimpossible]

The purpose and power of religion, as Ynot noted, was and is to control the dumbass sheeple. Such as yourself.

[Gwendolyn]

I think people should only use religion when it's practical. For some people, that time might never come; for others, it helps to empower them and helps them accomplish goals. It becomes harmful to people when it is used to tell others what they should think, feel, believe, etc. If it has a good use, then use it, as you would a tool, to your advantage. If not, discard it, for it serves no purpose and will needlessly rule your life. Anyway, the only power religion has, should come from within. Like a placebo, it works only if you are convinced it will.

But....I have no practical use for religion...

[Ex Nine]

. . . is there, under all the discrepancies of the creeds, a common nucleus to which [all religions] bear their testimony unanimously? [There is, and] It consists of two parts:-- 1. An uneasiness; and 2. Its solution. - William James (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/William_James)


Whatever religion fails to bring solutions is a false religion.

And I'll be a Dutch uncle if they aren't all false.

[Dangeruss]

Kim, despite your intelligence, you are the single rudest person I've ever encountered over the internet. This includes the scores of 14-year old 1337 counterstrike nerds that I've pwned. You're just as ignorant as all these 'sheeple' whom you condemn.


The Man didn't just sit down one day and decide to invent religion to suppress the masses. It started with individual philosophers trying to create better societies. People listened to them because they were too simple to come up with their own philosophies, and once a following was started The Man jumped in and used religion for control. Before we had cops patrolling every inch of road, religion was necessary to keep people moral. In order for societies to be built, modern society being that which gives Kim the education necessary to be a pretentious know-it-all, morality had to be maintained among the plebians.


Take religion for what it is: an historical set of ideals. I'm a devout atheist, but I'll be the first to admit that if we all followed christian ideals we'd have a harmonious society. Obviously this is impossible, but those few who genuinely believe in their religion are better people because of it. You don't see Seeker going around putting people down, swearing, stealing, killing, or contributing to any of society's problems.

[kimpossible]

>> The Man didn't just sit down one day and decide to invent religion to suppress the masses.

That is exactly what I'm contending religion is. "The Opiate of the Masses" (Who'da thunk that I, the world's most vehement capitalist-pig-dog-bitch, would run around quoting The Communist Manifesto??! Oh well. Credit where it's due...) - Karl Marx, The Communist Manifesto

>> religion was necessary to keep people moral. In order for societies to be built, modern society being that which gives Kim the education necessary to be a pretentious know-it-all, morality had to be maintained among the plebians.

And this is a counter to my contention that it's use was [to keep the sheeple in line] how, exactly? Seems like an affirmative defense of my statement if you ask me.

>> you are the single rudest person I've ever encountered over the internet.

Now this I'm taking as a compliment, if not an outright endorsement. Thanks! I'm nothing if not consistant. If you don't f**k with me, I'm a pretty nice person. To jump from Marx to a character Will Smith played: "I always say 'you don't start no shit, there won't beee no shit"

[edit]: Incidentally - by way of a post-script:

No one "gave" me a first-rate education, thanks.

I bought, paid, worked, and EARNED a first-rate education. The difference is not nearly as subtle as one might think.

[Ex Nine]

Dangeruss, I'm pretty confident that you're just making shit up.

Religion predates philosophy by thousands of years. Hundreds of thousands, even. Even the Neanderthals had religion, if you count their crude stone markings around graves as evidence that they believed in an afterlife and thus, religion. There was simply no evidence of abstract critical thinking of how to create a better society and hence no philosophy. Not until the Greeks. Before that, it was all about pleasing the gods.

Once people settled down into civilizations, religions took center stage in people's lives. They no longer could afford to just follow game around and pick berries, because all of a sudden it was really scarce. They started farming, and after that, they had to rely on proper amounts of rainfall, the regular flooding of the Nile, freedom from locusts, and so forth. They also had to rely on each other to help seed and harvest. They also had to rely on bereaucracy to keep public records of what people owned, so that everybody knew who owned what, so they could work together. Except, you know what they had for bereaucracy back then? That's right, religion.

The Pharoahs knew the exact day the Nile would flood. And that made them god's representatives on Earth. Hell, why not, they thought, it just made them gods. And huge ass monuments would guarntee the sheepie could go to heaven with them.

You look around at other civilizations and you find the same thing. The Chinese were maniacal. There's no way the ancient Chinese would've been anything but scared sheepie to allow such disgusting ruthlessness. The first emperor was buried with like 40 virgins so he could have them in the afterlife. They were killed by suffocation so their bodies would remain attractive.

And the South Americans? Don't say the wrong thing or you'll have your head chopped off and kicked around in a sacred game of the gods. And if you said the right things, and if you were really lucky, your children could be sacrificed! En masse!

[Edit: Added some more lugubrious details about the Chinese]

[kimpossible]

You do have a point there, as well. It's worth extending my description to add: "...and allow those with just a slightly little longer view of the world to achieve [more and greater] power by controlling the means to feed the fear of the unknown. Fear of the crops not growing, Fear of what's out in that black expanse of late-night chittering and growling jungle, and fear of death. Add to that the survival instinct of not being cast-out from the safety of the group, and you have nothing but a continuation of my point above." ;)

[Dangeruss]

I'm sure you worked your ass off for your education, but that education is attainable because we live in a modern society. And modern society is possible because of? Law and order, which has evolved from god deciding how people should live into congress deciding how people should live.

Keep in mind that I'm not saying that religion isn't the "opiate of the masses," I'm saying that that's not how they start out, and ideally that's not how they work. Of course, the world is far from ideal so that's how it goes.

All I'm saying is don't be so hard on religion when it does contribute some degree of order to society. Whether you see it has obstructive to progress or not, its merits are self evident. Even though we're on the same side, something about the way you represent us atheists doesn't do it for me.

[kimpossible]

That is, as Ex detailed and I elaborated upon a bit, EXACTLY how they start out.

Forget the enlightened ages. Religion started BEFORE humankind ever crawled out from under the rock they were hiding under deep in their first caves.

It wouldn't be possibly, logically, for me to represent "you atheists". Atheism, at its core, requires personal responsibility. I take responsibility for my own actions, statements, and beliefs. I don't represent anyone other than myself.

[AirRick101]

What about kimpossible?...with a slingshot?

The hardest thing about this argument is knowing for sure whether or not humankind would be better with or without religion. Man, even I am stumped. There is the prospect of not knowing something until it actually happens...versus educated and calculated guesses.

Religion had such a strong effect because it was mostly internal experience.. There was no objective reference to their beliefs (except scripture and a preached "reason" why things are the way they are) since the common man had no other way of explaining it, it's natural for him to stick to what's hammered into his head. The tendency of initial absorption continues long after infant years.

The intangibility of it is what engines the magic of religion, whether it be black or white magic.

[Ex Nine]

Well we'd be just fine if we had a religion that offered solutions, wouldn't we? Instead of more problems? I'm going to quote William James again, I thought my quoting him before was so good.

. . . is there, under all the discrepancies of the creeds, a common nucleus to which [all religions] bear their testimony unanimously? [There is, and] It consists of two parts:-- 1. An uneasiness; and 2. Its solution. - William James (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/William_James)

Whatever religion fails to bring solutions is just a sorry excuse of a religion.

[kimpossible]

Without religion, I believe the suicide rate would rise considerably. I'm here to say that's a good and positive side effect, though, so I'll leave off that one.

Someone quote John Lennon now, please. I'm over my yearly commie-quote allotment as it is...

[Ex Nine]

"I don't believe in -isms, I just believe in me."


Phew. I was able to get around actually quoting him, because little do you know I was surreptitiously quoting Ferris Bueller who was quoting John Lennon.

[Nirvana Starseed]

Dangeruss
Originally posted by numbass
I take responsibility for my own actions, statements, and beliefs.

Your sig says you take no responsibility, for intepretation of posts, or your views which are subject to change, and no warranty for your offensiveness.

to me that sounds like. If you take offense Its not my fault about what I say, and what I can say can be anything and anything you have a problem with its your fault. cause I made a silly contract in my sig using teh language of the law that covers me. To me that is amusingly childish and ridiculous.

How foolish can you get anyway? Expecially someone that has gone through a schooling process. I find some in particular can be the most stuborn and ignorant of them all. Because they have a paper degree of some sort that lets them know they are smart and they can hold it up. But it seems focused attention on pointlessness. It's just to look smart isn't it, or think your smart. I don't see what you achieve. What are you trying to achieve with your education?

What have you achieved on DV with your so called intelligence that you have earned in a place of education? I'm yet to see you express any.

[Nirvana Starseed]

Originally posted by numbass
Without religion, I believe the suicide rate would rise considerably. I'm here to say that's a good and positive side effect, though, so I'll leave off that one.

I'm not sure about this one. You will find not many young people go to church on sunday. I went their one day just to see. And it was full of old people. Perhaps it was just that particular church, but something tells me that the religion is failing the younger generations.

Teen suicide is mostly the problem. I don't think the religions presented by our society is holding them together to tell you the truth. Maybe some certain people. But as a whole I would say no....

Like I mentioned before without religion is impossible. Society goes with religion.

[Mark75]

Originally posted by Nirvana Starseed+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Nirvana Starseed)</div>
<!--QuoteBegin-God
I take responsibility for my own actions, statements, and beliefs.


Your sig says you take no responsibility, for intepretation of posts, or your views which are subject to change, and no warranty for your offensiveness. [/b]

Seems to me like the interpretation of said post would be YOUR action. I fail to see the contradiction.

[kimpossible]

Bing! Give The Mark His Prize!

[InTheMoment]

Originally posted by Mark75


Seems to me like the interpretation of said post would be YOUR action. I fail to see the contradiction.
Don't worry Mark, none of us ever do.

For some reason Nirvana thinks that over-analyzing, terrible analogies and superfluous rants make him seem intelligent.:shakehead2:

[Nirvana Starseed]

I never said it was a contradiction. I just said it was stupid. lol
ITM cheer up, u know its funny.

[Dangeruss]

Originally posted by Nirvana Starseed
intelligent people do not take this as a compliment. She is pretend intelligent. No real wisdom., trust me.

Kim's intelligence is self-evident, and is not the topic of discussion. Whether or not she's right, however, IS.

[Nirvana Starseed]

wether or not numbass is "right" has nothing to do with the topic of discussion.

[Ex Nine]

Oh, of course. Why would we ever have a discussion for the purposes of knowledge and truth.

[Mark75]

Originally posted by kimpossible
Bing! Give The Mark His Prize!
HAHA I WIN SO LONG SUCKERS I DONT NEED YOU JERKS ANYMORE ALSO I DONT NEED PUNCTUATION HAHAHAHAHAAAA

I think this topic is dying.

My conclusion? I honestly can't think of a purpose for religion. With all the information we have easy access to these days, I think it's reasonable to expect a person to go through life and draw their own conclusions based off their own experience and knowledge, rather than taking the easy way and having a pre-made belief system/morality/lifestyle handed to them.

[Ex Nine]

Since the masses of the people are inconstant, full of unruly desires, passionate, and reckless of consequences, they must be filled with fears to keep them in order. The ancients did well, therefore, to invent gods, and the belief in punishment after death. -- the Roman historian Polybius

As quoted in that great Sagan essay, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection (http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/saganbd.htm#BALONEY)

[Nirvana Starseed]

Mark
then you do not understand quality religion. It is expecially not something which is givin to one in their ignorance without discovering for themself.

Exnine
A approach of the past, which we are moving beyond now with greater understanding

[Universal Mind]

Originally posted by kimpossible
Without religion, I believe the suicide rate would rise considerably. I'm here to say that's a good and positive side effect, though, so I'll leave off that one.

Someone quote John Lennon now, please. I'm over my yearly commie-quote allotment as it is...

Seeing nothing on the other side of death played a major role in my battles against suicidal impulses, twice. If I had believed in an afterlife, there is a high likelihood that I would have given in.

[AirRick101]

How would you know if there is nothing? I really am curious, because I do not know for sure what happens to me when I die.

I admittedly still have suicidal thoughts from time to time. It seems so easy, right? Well, no, it's not. It's usually an incredibly painful process, even if the finish line is no feeling (which we are not even sure of). When I'm suicidal, I'm not all for death, I'm all for wanting relief from the pain of my life. The pro-life part of me keeps fighting, it's why I'm still here..and well, typing on my computer.

to say religion is necessary for society is a real far-fetched statement, imo. Religion has helped and hurt in countless ways, who am I to be one-sided about it? Sometimes I hate it, sometimes I love it. The thing is, it has to be preached as truth to actually give the opiate effect to the masses. There are some who believe, and some who question. There are some with a degree of both, and I think I'll continue that medium.

[Nirvana Starseed]

universal that's kinda interesting that you say that.

Even though I believe there is an afterlife. I don't kill myself because my understanding is that it would serve little purpose to do so. It would be like jumping into another fire. I would just have to deal with the same thing in another life at some point. No pain is no gain anyway. I would also miss out on a opportunity by ending the current life.

the way I see it. This is where we learn and progress and move forward. The afterlife, or death transition, no progression is possible. Because that is where you just exist.

I think the illusion and memory loss is important to our learning process. And that we exist here in our varies lives, to progress to a perfection, all experience being quite valuable.
If we knew about the purpose of our lives. I dont think it would be real enough to be valid.

For example, Say your lifes lession or test for progression was to save someones life in a position where you yourself were trying to survive on the street and very sick yourself.
This is to test and progress your quality of "light" or "love" aspect.

When you saw the person lying on the ground, and saw that you could save them. If you knew about what you had to do, you would obviously save them. But if you did not know what it was all about, You get a real choice. And perhaps you think. Who gives a shit about them, I have my own problems it does not effect me wether this person lives or dies. Why should it matter to me. But if your soul has a strong enough light, you will suddenly do this
out of not your benifit, but out of a pure desire to just help out. If you are able to do this. you have demonstrated a very important quality within yourself. Then when you die and look back on this. You can enjoy the fact that you did not fail to help out in that situation. So it gives you a totally different perspective when you are here. then when you exist there. Your perspective changes and you can look at what you achieved and learn from what you didn't. And even fix up some mistakes you did before in another life.

Ofcourse there is many other things involved and it is alot more complex, this is only a tiny tiny example of what I am tlaking about.

We achieve certain things, that are just not possible from the reality where we come.
From what I have concluded there can be no death. To me Death is not logical. It would take a long time to even discuss this properly with any of you. But if anyone wanted answers or to find out the flaws in my thinking. I could discuss it with them. And if they could find some. Great, I have learnt something. If not, they may learn something. If we are capable of a discussion in this way we should be able to come to a agreement. Otherwise one of us will continue to be illogical, and thats where it ends. I just have to make sure it is not me that is illogical.

When I say this without explaining the reason for my beliefs about this, I know I don't expect certain people to understand. It's just some of the conclusions have come to out of my experience. I know you have come to conclusions aswell. And I don't know how you are thinking what you believe. Or your experience. But I know there is reasons you believe what you do.

I just try to explain mine the best I can, and anything that people disagree with, I am always ready to understand what they are saying. If it makes sense. If they don't explain to me, and it is not logical. I am not about to throw everything I have concluded out the window, because of that.

[Nirvana Starseed]

to say religion is necessary for society is a real far-fetched statement[/b]

It is not really, when you consider at its essence, what religion is.

A quality religion, by its definition. It is a general understanding by the people, about reality. And it is used for the benifit of the whole.

When you look at it like this, you can see that religion plays a part not only in our education system. But governments. and even scientist are following their religion.

It is generally spirituality that plays a part in everything, which drives people therefore comes from their own personal "religion" I think it is unfair, to only keep the definition of religion to certain establishments and concepts such as christianity and buddhism.

It is obvious to me that the word implies and contains much more than is thought of. because of these establishments. And what is considered by the definition. "Religion"
I dont think conveys what I am talking about at all. Yet that is the only word that there is for it.

[Ex Nine]

Originally posted by Nirvana Starseed
A approach of the past, which we are moving beyond now with greater understanding

Hopefully.

[Ex Nine]

Okay. I'm not adopting a new spirituality that says we all moving towards greater understanding.

That's it.

That's the only tenet.

Do you believe?