Ludic dreaming mentally unhealthy?

[Lord of the Flies]

I was wonderring if anyone has heard of ludic dreaming as mentally unhealthy. I got this idea from many a conversations I've had with someone who doesn't/has never done a l.d. before.

Why would it be mentally unhealthy you wonder? Because you tap into your subconscience and you can roam around "inside" your mind and fool around with all the "gizmos" that make you who you are and disrupt things that should be left alone.

What do you think of this idea?

[Death-Wuad]

i seriously doubt its unhealthy.

lets say ur in the astral plane- no damage there, its like taking a walk in a physical park

lets say you access all your brains functions: how could it physically
damage you? if anything, its mentally healthy because it brings you closer to *enlightenment* and it lets you fully utilize your mental abilities (in my opinion thats a very healthy thing!)

lets say its just an induced *very vivid imagination*: wont bother explaining.

[Alric]

Everyone has dreams and lucid dreams are basicly just dreams. I don't see how a dream can harm you in anyway. If it was unhealth you brain would just "shut off" like it does in the other stages of sleep and it would be impossbile to dream.

[Lord of the Flies]

Nice answers. However, assuming you've done "inner exploring" as I tried at one point and were exactly after your "inner functions" to see what you're like on the inside.

I dropped the project as I've mentionned in another thread because things were simply starting to have odd effects on me when I woke up. That's where my friend suggests that it may not be meantally healthy (don't worry, I'm quite fine just incase anyone was wonderring). Of course it has nothing to do with yourself physically though and I asked because we keep thinking "What if I went deeper?"...

Odd scenario.

In a sense it's like looking inside your own organs...I guess... :|

[Je33ica]

People may think it's unhealthy because you may become obsessed with the dream world and withdrawl from the real world.

We sleep 1/3 of our lifes away, why not cotinue living during that time and learn something about ourselves at the same time?

And there was a really cool quote from a LD book I read, it's below but really paraphrased:

"Life is real while we are alive, the same goes with dreams."

[Umbrasquall]

I agree. A lot of people assume that we are addicted to dreaming, and label it as bad. Well first of all I can hopefully claim that we aren't addicts. (Most of us anyways. :wink: ), and second Jessica's right, we need to take advantage of opportunities like this to have fun, solve problems, etc.

[Howie]

I can surtenly understand that people feel you may be mettallying with somthing you are not suppose to do. However through all the books I have read and the so many posts in this forum alone I do not recall people complaining of any ill side affects.
Like all things though you must do everything in moderation.

[Alric]

Its not like you can sleep to much, if your not tired your not going to fall asleep and your not going to have dreams.

[:: astounded ::]

I'm already insane. :tongue:

[Ev]

You said they've never done LD , then *HOW DO THEY KNOW* ?

I mean you can be brainwashed into thinking anything is bad.

Stupid people! grrrrrrrrrr

[Seeker]

Lucid dreaming in itself is healty, IMHO.
It is when it becomes an obsession to you and begins to have a negative affect on your life and the life of those around you that it becomes a problem.

But of course, that is true of everything like drinking, sex, or spending too much time posting on lucid dreaming forums =P

[Kaniaz]

Originally posted by Lord of the Flies
What do you think of this idea?

Hogwash. If it was a real problem, the media would have it everywhere: "DREAMING KILLS", for example. It is perfectly safe.

[Alric]

I think the only problem you can get is that you spend to much time comming here to talk about it, which some people here might do heh. I wouldn't really call that a negative though.

[WerBurN]

if i managed to go deep enough in my own head in a dream to screw something up, that'd be kinda a breakthrough, dontcha think? obviously then dreams would be able to impact the physical world!

[evangel]

I could see it as potentially unhealthy for someone who ALREADY HAS certain problems like schizophrenia, extreme paranoia... I know a person who started having extremely bad dreams and she thought she was going insane -she had a minor nervous breakdown but she's fine now.

There was a point in my LD life when I wondered about my own sanity and was very emotionally burdened, but on the whole I think it is generally healthy and mind-expanding... Some people who have LDs may be convinced they're "talking to God" or to "voices" that convince them to do evil things or assume strange/psychotic thoughts... The mind can be fragile thing
:breakitdown:

[Lord of the Flies]

Originally posted by WerBurN
if i managed to go deep enough in my own head in a dream to screw something up, that'd be kinda a breakthrough, dontcha think? obviously then dreams would be able to impact the physical world!

Actually, with my personal experience, when I woke up I was rather...confused. Not about what was real or not, but as some have mentioned, getting deep into your own mind and fooling around with the "mechanics" can't necessarily be good. Of course I'm not super-dreamer so I didn't do much, but like I said, I was confused. Mainly with my emotions though.

In my oppinion dreams can't effect you physically...although this one time I was dreaming that I was swimming underwater and all of a sudden I realized humans can't breath under water and I lost my breath. When I woke up I had my face in the pillow.

[evangel]

Originally posted by Lord of the Flies

In my oppinion dreams can't effect you physically....

HOPEfully not... :P

I've mentioned this a couple other times but got no "substantial" responses on this forum. I'm concerned that long-term LDers like myself could be negatively affected physically due to things like the adrenal glands working overtime, increased heart rate, blood pressure, chemical activity in the brain, etc.? Anybody done any research on this? There's probably been no in-depth studies yet, or they may be in progress, but I'm wondering if my fears may be substantiated or if I'm just paranoid. I mentioned my concern to my physician, and he looked at me kinda sideways, then said something like "I wouldn't worry about it." I'm convinced that he's clueless about LDs or their propensity for extreme intensity. any thoughts on this?

[Alric]

I really think lucid dreams are the same as normal dreams, which people have ALL the time. I really don't believe there is a chemical released which makes you have a lucid dream. If there isn't then I don't see how becomming more aware can have any effect on your brain.

Its like saying if you day dream to much your going to fall over dead, I don't think anyone buys that. I think the only real problem you can have is if your dreams cause you to wake up to much or something and it messes up your sleeping habits, but then sleeping for like an extra hour might solve that.

[Ev]

lucid dreams are just modified normal dreams...

Even if they are not, I'll give 10 years of my "Real life" for 1 year of LD :)

[evangel]

I really think lucid dreams are the same as normal dreams, [/b]

Actually I would disagree totally with that assertion based on my own experience with LDs (which occur every time I fall asleep).

My LDs are very different than my \"normal dreams\" (and VERY different from daydreams) in that my conscious mind is engaged (sometimes completely, sometimes partially). I come to the conclusion, therefore, that there are many chemicals coursing through my brain (melatonin for one) and my body that are not while I'm awake -or these chemicals are at least minimal while awake.

While I am in certain LDs, I am very conscious of my physical body and have detected several times that my heart is beating very rapidly, whereas other times I am aware that it is beating very faintly (almost undetectable). I have woken up after some LDs unable to find a pulse or even sometimes feeling nearly completely numb even though I have full mobility. I have also been able to enter states of constant adrenaline rush, and even others where I feel ecstatic or \"high\". I would never be able to achieve this while awake.

Its like saying if you day dream to much your going to fall over dead,[/b]

Day dreams CANNOT EVEN COME CLOSE when compared to lucid dreams unless you have somehow mastered a "nirvanic" meditative state of consciousness or something. Even those who have achieved this are in an obvious state where they cannot control their bodies at the same time. The brain is capable -along with the help of certain glands -of producing all kinds of powerful chemicals, hormones, and hallucinogenic/mind altertering substances that are only secreted in tiny amounts if at all, while awake, but maybe moreso while asleep...

[Alric]

Well thats what I was saying, the chemicals that are already there in normal dreams are not harmful. I am not saying that there isn't any in lucid dreams but that there are no added chemicals that are not already there in normal dreams. I really don't believe that there are any chemicals that make you more aware.

[evangel]

:P Well, and that's what I am saying: the over-extended barrage of these natural chemicals (I never meant anything other than what the brain or the body produces) may have harmful physical effects - because they are being used over what is normal - and especially over long periods of time.

Adrenaline is one chemical that does make you more aware... This is what happens with athletes and extremists who get off on "natural highs" by sky-diving, base-jumping, etc. -endorphins and adrenaline and perhaps other chemicals kick in to help sharpen the mind and fascilitate the use of the body when it is tired or needs the ability to react quickly.

If someone on the forum has a lot of time, or has a job as a researcher/lab technician or something, maybe they can conduct an experiment or a survey on the "long-term extreme LDers."

[Lord of the Flies]

I feel like the only member here that agrees with Evangel.

As you all probably know, there are actually researches done on dreams and labs for them. When I was in grade 2 and told my teacher I could control them she told me that it was amazing and that scientists search people like me for their researches.

I felt hunted. :cry: (I was about 6!)

To the point: maybe it's a suggestion that should be made if anyone here ever volonteers to be a "lucid dreamer guinee pig".

[Howie]

Hey. I like your avatar Lord of the Flies!?!? :o

Another topic on this thought=
http://www.dreamviews.com/forum/viewtopic....1297&highlight= (http://www.dreamviews.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1297&highlight=)


The Lucidity institute asks if you would like to engage in stidies when you become a member. They also have a couple of weeks reteats to where you have LD experts on hand to guide you. I wonder if they do any actual monitoring of the pysical nature?
I do know that while dreaming your mind thinks that the events that are taking place are really happening. So while you are Lucid dreaming I personally don't think anything would be going on anymore than it would be if you were in a regular dream. My worry is that since you are concious while Lucid, that your concious mind will not get the rest that it requires. In a sense it would be working night and day.

[Alric]

Yea thats what I think howetzer, I think your brain might rest during the other dream stages though which would mean your safe. If not I think an extra hour sleep or a nap would fix any problems from that.

[Human]

I found a site some days ago, and here is a quotation from it, who are on topic:

Preface to the Second Edition: *

LUCID DREAMING AND MENTAL HEALTH
Within the human brain there is a neurotransmitter called Serotonin. Empirical studies have established a number of things about this important chemical, of which the following are germane to this work on Lucid Dreaming:

Its presence in the brain at the correct level is vital to good mental health. An abnormally high amount of Serotonin causes Mania (paranoia, schizoidal episodes etc); an abnormally low amount causes Depression. *
Serotonin is naturally replenished by dreamless sleep: however, REM-sleep (Rapid Eye Movement sleep - the kind in which dreams with strong visual imagery occur) depletes it. *
What has this to do with Lucid Dreaming? Simply put, Lucid Dreaming consists of a collection of techniques which aim at stimulating and enhancing REM-sleep, and thereby depleting the brain's natural Serotonin levels. I mention this because I have come across a large number of people who are interested in the Occult - and who also suffer Depression. I am faced with the growing conviction that the high incidence of Depression among Occultists is either caused or exacerbated by the wrongful use of techniques such as Lucid Dreaming, and like techniques whereby the person retreats into a dream-world. *

Therefore, the following pieces of guidance can be put forward:

The excessive use of Lucid Dreaming tends to cause Depression; *
If a person already suffering from Depression attempts to become a lucid dreamer, they are making their condition worse; *
If a person is on a course of anti-depressants (e.g. Prozac, Seroxat, etc which work by boosting Serotonin levels), attempting to dream Lucidly will vitiate the effects of the medication. *
In light of the above, I can hardly caution readers wanting to know about Lucid Dreaming too strongly. We may laugh at the fundamentalist Christian or the superstitious low-brow who claims dabbling with the occult is tantamount to truck with demons, and against God's will, but we must laugh at ourselves and our own rank foolishness when the scientist presents evidence to say they might have a point. *

The revised and recently-implemented Lucid Dreaming Protocols of the Hermetic Order of Sol Ascendans take this into account, and state that Dreamwork is only to be attempted within a single 56 hour period per Lunar Month - which effectively means on two consecutive nights only. The rest of the time - approximately 26 days - not only is no attempt made to dream lucidly, but every attempt is made to sleep dreamlessly (or as much as is possible). This is considerably more difficult than the former method, which was to at least attempt to practice Lucid Dreaming and its associated techniques nightly. However, it is undoubtedly safer, and strikes what I hope is a balance between the hazards of Lucid dreaming, and its benefits. *

I am caught in the position that I honestly believe that Lucid Dreaming is both a very good and very dangerous thing. Good, in that I have used it successfully for a number of purposes, all of which I am very proud to have done: works of Theurgy, healing rituals, and so forth. Dangerous, in that I cannot in any conscience endanger the mental well-being of any eager young neophyte. I speak as one who has himself suffered Depressive moods in the past, which I see with hindsight as nothing but my own fault. *

In conclusion, I earnestly advise all readers to take these words of warning to heart. The information presented in this book details \"How to do it\", but that should not be taken as an encouragement that \"You should do it\". *

If you suffer from Depression, or are taking anti-depressants, I advise you Not to attempt to dream Lucidly. If you do not fall into any of these categories, I would nevertheless advise you to deliberately limit the time spent attempting to dream Lucidly - spacing the occasions of practice with long periods of non-practice, perhaps in the manner suggested above, or even less frequently. If you start to fall into Depression, increase the length of non-practice time between Lucid Dreaming attempts or stop it altogether. Lucid Dreaming on a more regular basis than this is at your own risk. *


[/b]

Therefore, I think lucid dreaming can be unhealthy for depressed people.

The whole site is here: http://www.geocities.com/alex_sumner/lucid...id2.htm#preface (http://www.geocities.com/alex_sumner/lucid2.htm#preface)

[Alric]

I think it would go the other way around. Normally if you lucid dream a lot you spend less time in REM sleep because you wake up easier and don't go the full time. I am not sure if its noticeable though. I don't know anyone who can increase how long they spend in REM though, most things work after your already in that stage and already dreaming.

[Aphius]

I mention this because I have come across a large number of people who are interested in the Occult - and who also suffer Depression. I am faced with the growing conviction that the high incidence of Depression among Occultists is either caused or exacerbated by the wrongful use of techniques such as Lucid Dreaming, and like techniques whereby the person retreats into a dream-world.
[/b]OMG! ur all memberz of teh occult! suXX0rz! :shock:

After reading that lucid dreaming might be bad... I really don't care. :goodjob:

[Howie]

Originally posted by Human
If you suffer from Depression, or are taking anti-depressants, I advise you Not to attempt to dream Lucidly. If you do not fall into any of these categories, I would nevertheless advise you to deliberately limit the time spent attempting to dream Lucidly - spacing the occasions of practice with long periods of non-practice, perhaps in the manner suggested above, or even less frequently. If you start to fall into Depression, increase the length of non-practice time between Lucid Dreaming attempts or stop it altogether. Lucid Dreaming on a more regular basis than this is at your own risk.

As far as long term side effects we may not no. However. The author of the above story may have been going through a state of depression during this time in which he was a Lucid dreamer. For the sake of this argument I will indulge you with the information that my, shall I say counseler, who is a board a certified LISW, is the one who introduced me to Lucid dream to over come some of my depression problems.

[Human]

Originally posted by Howetzer+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Howetzer)</div><!--QuoteBegin-Human
If you suffer from Depression, or are taking anti-depressants, I advise you Not to attempt to dream Lucidly. If you do not fall into any of these categories, I would nevertheless advise you to deliberately limit the time spent attempting to dream Lucidly - spacing the occasions of practice with long periods of non-practice, perhaps in the manner suggested above, or even less frequently. If you start to fall into Depression, increase the length of non-practice time between Lucid Dreaming attempts or stop it altogether. Lucid Dreaming on a more regular basis than this is at your own risk.

As far as long term side effects we may not no. However. The author of the above story may have been going through a state of depression during this time in which he was a Lucid dreamer. For the sake of this argument I will indulge you with the information that my, shall I say counseler, who is a board a certified LISW, is the one who introduced me to Lucid dream to over come some of my depression problems.[/b]

I must admit that I don't have too much clue about this. I only wanted to show this quotation, since it is on topic to this thread.

[evangel]

Not sure what your last post was all about, but I appreciate your previous posts Human. Interesting stuff!

[Human]

Originally posted by evangel
I appreciate your previous posts Human. Interesting stuff!

Thanks.
Wanted to get viewpoints about it; if lucid dreaming could be unhealthy for people suffering from depression, etc.

[Lord of the Flies]

Thanks.
Wanted to get viewpoints about it; if lucid dreaming could be unhealthy for people suffering from depression, etc.[/b]

I have to admit that that is the very reason I started this thread. :P

[nocturnal drone]

i kind of agree on the point of lucid dreaming may cause severe depression...
but there is the point that id like to make...
i have a lucid dream at least one or two times a week if not more...
ive had/have depression on and off...
it usually comes around when i go more than a week without some sort of long crazy dream...
it makes me think that my brain is trying to hide something or my conscious isnt connecting to my subconscious...
i dont really worship the occult but i am into the whole mind and matter balancing...
the more i have these dreams the happier i seem to be...
almost like its an addictive drug i cant shake off...
its just my little way of escaping reality for a fun little adventure...
but theres also a little depression due to the reality of the dreams and never wanting to leave...
but its canceled out because it makes me a little more happy every time...

[Ev]

I agree with nocturnal and feel very much the same way.

Lucid dreaming is what pulled me out of severe depression and suicidal intentions...

[Lord of the Flies]

At the present time I've got a few issues and problems of my own and I feel as if lucid dreaming's my only escape from all of it. The problem is that I wish I could sleep 24/7. Thank God it's impossible otherwise I think that's what I'd be doing instead of facing the music.

[toomanypossibilities]

another view with the whole depression thing.

Some scientists believe that dreaming is your brain at work processing information to be stored into long term memory, as well as working out emotional issues (be they minor or major ones).

Now, if you are constantly having LD's, therefore constantly hijacking your dreams ( your brain's natural system for processing information) could it be counter productive to healthy errrrrr.... ness.

In my very limited experience with LDing , I think there is much more to gain than there is to lose. Yet the point is still valid.


Now when dealing with depression..... hrm. Here is an excerpt from "The Mind at Night" by Andrea Rock..

Based on studies published in 1998, that compared dreaming patterns among sixty normal adults and seventy who were clinically depressed, Cartwright says that for most people, dreams in the first REM period of the night contain the most negative emotion, and in each successive REM period, dreams become more positive emotionally.

In people who suffer from depression, however, the dreaming pattern differs significantly. They tend to have their first period of REM earlier in the night than nondepressed people do, and the dreams they report at that stage are surprisingly lacking in emotion of any kind. But as the nght wears on, their dreams become progressively more negative.[/b]

Now which came first, the depression or the negative dream pattern?

I don't know, i havn't finished reading the book.

If it was depression first, then i think lucid dreaming (with professional guidance) can help to identify issues and even face them in lucid dreams.

If it was the negative sleep pattern first, it may be the (or one of the) cause(s) for the depression. If your brain is not properly processing negative emotions , you would wake up just as sad/angry/depressed as you did when you went to sleep. Those negative feelings would build up over time and boom, depression.
IF (and i'm just hypothesizing) that is the case, then again lucid dreaming might be used as a tool to break the bad cycle. but once again, ONLY WITH PROFESSIONAL GUIDANCE.

[Lord of the Flies]

Hmmm...*rubs chin*...

It makes sense to me. I'm sure I'm not the only one that's ever woken up angry or sad for an unknown reason. I, however, think that it would be the depression that came first, unless you mean this as a day by day type of thing.

[jason9987]

Originally posted by evangel+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(evangel)</div><!--QuoteBegin-Lord of the Flies

In my oppinion dreams can't effect you physically....

HOPEfully not... :P

I've mentioned this a couple other times but got no \"substantial\" responses on this forum. I'm concerned that long-term LDers like myself could be negatively affected physically due to things like the adrenal glands working overtime, increased heart rate, blood pressure, chemical activity in the brain, etc.? Anybody done any research on this? There's probably been no in-depth studies yet, or they may be in progress, but I'm wondering if my fears may be substantiated or if I'm just paranoid. I mentioned my concern to my physician, and he looked at me kinda sideways, then said something like \"I wouldn't worry about it.\" I'm convinced that he's clueless about LDs or their propensity for extreme intensity. any thoughts on this?[/b]

LDing should not negatively affect you physically due to things like adrenal glands working overtime, increased heart rate, blood pressure, chemical activity in the brain, etc any more than regular dreaming, I think, although it sounds unusual, the best comparison between LDing and normal dreaming in how it affects you phisicly would be the difference between playing a video game and holding a contorller in your hand moving the joysticks and such while you watch someone else play and are completly convinced that you are playing. I know that sound weird but it kind of makes sense.

[Placebo]

My personal views on the what dreams are for, etc
(These are my personal opinions, and it may have some faults. Criticise if you will, but be constructive please)

The synapses in our brains are 'powered' by chemical reactions. These synapses are responsible for maintaining the associations in our memories and skills. Eg. what muscles to move when eating.
The chemicals in these synapses seep away slowly when not in use, resulting in 'memory loss'. More accurately - the associations are lost. Not the neurons.
In our dreams, we play over things that we find important to remember of our day, or month. Figuratively oftentimes - this depends on how deeply you tend to think about things I suppose. The net result is that you are testing and revitalising the associations that you want to keep - and not forget.
Thats why memory suffers so badly during sleep deprivation. And why 'insanity' might kick in - your views on things become slanted because the associations responsible for balancing out your reasoning become... faulty (for lack of a better word)

I intend trying to test this concept on a computer

[toomanypossibilities]

Placebo, ok now keeping in line with your theory on things (which is pretty much the same as mine)

if you keep having lucid dreams, so basically not letting your brain pick which events/emotions to replay over in your mind, don't you think that would be counter-productive to maintaining those memories?

because you aren't letting your brain refresh the memories that it normally would when you change the course of your dreams.

[Lord of the Flies]

Placebo's theory makes perfect sense to me. I know this might sound a little dispositional as a question, but am I the only one who feels as if my mind and subconscience is being "tugged" while I LD? Kind of like an insect walking on the "membrane" of the surface of the water.

What's more, it would explain why our subconscience is often "against" us when we LD it feels as if the dream we control feels like a slim membrane on top of the reality of things. Or would the second fact only relate to me?

~Lord Of the Flies who feels alone, but who's too tired to care.

[Placebo]

counter-productive to maintaining those memories[/b]
Possibly. I had two reasons why it doesn't bother me too much.
One... in a lucid dream, I still allow my subconscious some control.
I might pick where to go in the dream, but my subconscious can still be silly and make eg. pink elephants fly around my head.
Two... I don't lucid dream in every dream I have. Not many of us can. Remember the funny problems Onus once had? (in memorable topics) I wouldn't be suprised if it had some relation to what we're talking about.

explain why our subconscience is often \"against\" us[/b]
No you're not the only one who's noticed this. I started a thread about it before. I was never sure whether this was because of internal issues/personal things I need to work on, or if it really was the subconscious being upset with interrupting his 'job'

Dunno if you read my thread about my dream of talking to my subconscious. I'm pretty sure after that, that your subconscious isn't too happy with the lucid dreaming thing. I'm trying to find a way to balance things out so I can lucid dream and still keep my subconscious happy.

[Juaneit]

I have experienced distress from too much LD.

For example, it happens often that I panic inside the LD and cannot wake up. Or I wake up in annother dream, fearing I'll never be able to wake up.

Does this happen to anyone?

Plus, I began questioning reality too much, and thought I might be going crazy. A very clear feeling I had was that I was getting into something I did not have the 'energy' to handle, and that it could be harmful.

Acutally, one night, at the peak of my LD activity many years ago, a strange vibration (like coming from a tuning fork woke me up) I swear I was awake, and yet the vibration was still there. I've never been so scared in my whole life. I felt something was making contact with me. And fear overcame me.
It felt like a point of no return. And I like sanity too much...

[Juaneit]

I agree! I feel like my subconscious doesnt want me to find out I'm dreaming and does all it can to distract me and get my back into the stream of the dream story.

Did you talk directly to your subconscious? What did it say?

[Xaqaria]

How do you think it would be possible to disrupt the workings of your mind, using only your mind? It sounds like you believe the conscious mind and the subconscious mind are two seperate entities that work independantly of each other, which is not the case. You influence your subconcious mind while you are awake in the same ways you can while you are sleeping.

I found a site some days ago, and here is a quotation from it, who are on topic:



Therefore, I think lucid dreaming can be unhealthy for depressed people.

The whole site is here: http://www.geocities.com/alex_sumner/lucid...id2.htm#preface (http://www.geocities.com/alex_sumner/lucid2.htm#preface)

That geocities site is not exactly an authority on the scientific research on lucid dreams and serotonin levels, and doesn't even list any scientific research whatsoever in its bibliography.

As far as I know, no one here is able to increase the length of their REM cycle or even effect it at all with any technique for lucid dreaming. People dream on a nightly basis. The only thing that becoming lucid changes is the level of awareness during these pre-existing dreaming times.

[arby]

Dear god, that was an epic bump.

[Xaqaria]

Dear god, that was an epic bump.

There has been a rash of that stuff in the last few days (mostly by a new member, oleander; although not this one) I didn't even notice the date on this until I read your post.

[Grod]

ludic dreaming

[•Neko•]

Dear god, that was an epic bump.
And the fact that it was someone's first ever post that bumped it makes it even more epic.