Ask my about classical music

[skysaw]

I'm here for you... anything you'd like to know about history, composers, theory, orchestration, counterpoint, artists past and present, conductors, 12-tone rows, analysis, any style from early chant to Minimalism, how orchestras work, transpositions, instrument sound production, traditional recording techniques, musical forms, controversial premieres, changes in tuning over the years, instrument construction... or anything else you can come up with. I will do my best!

[M-Cat]

Who was Johannes Brahms married to?

[skysaw]

Who was Johannes Brahms married to?
I'm not sure if you're testing me here, or if you're actually curious. But here you go...

Brahms never married. However, he did lust after Clara Schumann for a number of years. Clara was a famous pianist of her time, but today is more famous for having been married to composer Robert Schumann.

[Snooze]

Was Mozart really as amazing child genious as the legend says?

[skysaw]

Was Mozard really as amazing child genious as the legend says?

Pretty much so, it would seem. He wrote his first symphony at age 8, which I'd have to say is pretty astounding. It's not a fantastic work, mind you, but it's an amazing accomplishment. He has an amazingly large catalog of works considering how young he was when he died.

My take on the level of his genious:
Mozart was a fantastic craftsman and wrote very accomplished works at great speed. My only problem with a lot of the material he wrote is that so much of it sounds the same. Over the years, his style changed very little, and he often repeated himself. I used to play French horn and learned his concertos. While practicing them, I often found myself starting with one concerto, and accidentally slipping into another one! They were that similar!

Mozart fans will disagree, I'm sure.

[ranma187]

Did Bach really Thrash his students if they gave bad performances?

[musicman]

my friend switched from trumpet to mellophone. Are trumpet and mellophone fingerings the same, or french horn and mellophone?

[Howie]

The past three years my wife, me and my neighbor have purchased a package series for the Cleveland Orchestra.
I am lucky to live around one of the most well renowned and respected Orchestras. With Franz Welser -MÖst as the music director.

I am really looking forward to this year. It does not begin until October.
When I review the list of concerts I can choose from, I would like your advice if you would. :sheepishgrin:

I have studied the fine arts and it's history, practiced mostly abstract art myself for as long as I can remember. Always attempting to explain to others the processes of viewing and depicting more modern styles of art. It was unfortunate that it was not until the second season that it hit me straight between the eyes. As I would sit and try to depict what this instrument is doing, what this means and that is, it ultimately came down to how how feel when I listen to it.
Where does it take me? Much like a painting. It's an experience. Not to be over analytical towards. At least for most of us.
Someone like you can dabble further into the depths of the compositions. Someone like myself can depict art very critically and not tarnish the experience.
I think only with time, knowledge and experience can you get to that point.

[skysaw]

Did Bach really Thrash his students if they gave bad performances?
I don't know the answer to this one, sorry. I know he taught singing, but I'm not familiar with the details.

[EagleEye]

Cool thread! I have a few of questions.

As a kid, I loved Beethoven's 5th and the Egmont Overture (cliche, I know lol) and thought they sounded like 'superman' or movie soundtrack music -- heroic, passionate, and full. Was a lot of movie soundtrack music modelled after this?

Does all of Claude Debussy's music sound alike, or it is just me?

Also, I've recently started listening to classical Indian music and it's been an interesting experience. I read that India's classical musical system stands on par in complexity and completeness with Western classical music. Do you have any ideas how the two musical systems are similiar and how they differ...in layperson's terms?

[skysaw]

my friend switched from trumpet to mellophone. Are trumpet and mellophone fingerings the same, or french horn and mellophone?

The short answer is that the fingerings will be the same as both the trumpet and the horn. The transposition is different (most mellophones are in Eb, while trumpets are usually Bb and horns F), but for a given written pitch, the fingering is the same. Many horns have a fourth valve, which switches it from an F instrument to a Bb instrument (though it's always written in F). The Bb side is shorter, and therefore easier to produce higher notes.

Think of any length of pipe as being able to vibrate at certain resonant frequencies. The frequencies are all in simple mathematic relationships to what is called the "Fundamental" frequency of the pipe. The ratios of the frequencies work in the series 1:2:3:4:5, etc. Musically, the ratios become: octave, fifth, fourth, major third, minor third, and progressively smaller intervals as you go up in pitch. This progression is called the "harmonic series." For any given fingering on a brass instrument, one can produce a subset of this series simply by changing the vibration in the lips.

Without getting too technical here, the first valve will lower a pitch a whole step, the second valve a half step, and the third valve a step and a half. By combining different combinations, one can lower any pitch attainable with an open fingering as much as 6 half-steps. For the most part, this will cover every note you need until you re-adjust your lips for the next note down in the harmonic series.

If you have any more questions on this topic, please let me know. I played French horn in orchestras for years. :)

[skysaw]

The past three years my wife, me and my neighbor have purchased a package series for the Cleveland Orchestra.
I am lucky to live around one of the most well renowned and respected Orchestras. With Franz Welser -MÖst as the music director.

I am really looking forward to this year. It does not begin until October.
When I review the list of concerts I can choose from, I would like your advice if you would. :sheepishgrin:
I'd be happy to offer my opinion on this, if you give me an idea of what sort of music you know you like. My tastes usually run from late romantic to contemporary, but I'm pretty familiar with most of the "classics" that are likely to be programmed.

I have studied the fine arts and it's history, practiced mostly abstract art myself for as long as I can remember. Always attempting to explain to others the processes of viewing and depicting more modern styles of art. It was unfortunate that it was not until the second season that it hit me straight between the eyes. As I would sit and try to depict what this instrument is doing, what this means and that is, it ultimately came down to how how feel when I listen to it.
Where does it take me? Much like a painting. It's an experience. Not to be over analytical towards. At least for most of us.
Someone like you can dabble further into the depths of the compositions. Someone like myself can depict art very critically and not tarnish the experience.
I think only with time, knowledge and experience can you get to that point.[/COLOR]
I've had many discussions on this topic, actually. The very experience of music changes as you learn more about it. You lose just a little bit of the wonder, but gain much in a deeper sense of appreciation. I sometimes wish I could hear something while forgetting the theory behind it all... to let it just be sound again, and sometimes I can fool myself for a little while in this regard, but it's very hard for me not to analyze what's going on as I listen. This is probably why I like contemporary music so much... much harder to analyze :)

[wasup]

what is your favorite classical song/orchestra/etc. (not really sure about the terminology)?

[skysaw]

As a kid, I loved Beethoven's 5th and the Egmont Overture (cliche, I know lol) and thought they sounded like 'superman' or movie soundtrack music -- heroic, passionate, and full. Was a lot of movie soundtrack music modelled after this?
A great majority of orchestral movie scores have very deep classical roots. Many of them borrow heavily from music written in Beethoven's time and a bit afterwards. Even those that throw in a few modern idioms usually use the same chords, progressions, and instruments classical composers have been using for hundreds of years. Personally, I prefer those who try to blaze a new trail... Beethoven did a pretty good job, so there's no reason to do it again!

Does all of Claude Debussy's music sound alike, or it is just me?
Depends on which of his works you are listening to. There is certainly some variety between many of his piano works, for example. If are listening to his orchestral works, you may find a lot of similarity between La Mer, Images, and others. The similarities you are hearing come from his break from tradition in the use of non-functional harmony. Once the ear becomes accustomed to it, you begin to hear more and more variation in what he was doing.

Also, I've recently started listening to classical Indian music and it's been an interesting experience. I read that India's classical musical system stands on par in complexity and completeness with Western classical music. Do you have any ideas how the two musical systems are similiar and how they differ...in layperson's terms?
I'm certainly no expert in Indian music, but I understand a few of the concepts. The tuning is a bit different, for one. Western tuning divides the octave into 12 equal parts. In Indian music, the division is not exactly equal. The other thing I know is that our concept of a "scale" does not exactly translate to Indian music. They instead use something called "Ragas," which are sets of melodic fragments, of which there are quite a number they use. This is an over-simplification of what a Raga is, but I didn't want to misspeak.

[skysaw]

what is your favorite classical song/orchestra/etc. (not really sure about the terminology)?

My favorite composers are Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Penderecki, Tchaikovsky, Bartok, Shostakovich, Nielsen. As you can see, I lean heavily on the Slavic side :)

My all time favorite orchestral works are Le Sacre du Printemps ("the Rite of Spring") by Stravinsky, and Symphony #5 in Bb by Prokofiev. Powerful stuff!

[sephiroth clock]

Skysaw, sweet to see another fan of classical music... I'm part of a classical music forum you may appreciate at this site

http://www.magle.dk/music-forums/

Anyways, have you heard scriabin's first, second or third symphonies... if so what do you think about the tonality and melodies of these works.

I play piano and right now I'm playing the mercutio from the Romeo and Juliet prokofiev sweet, very fun piece. I was wondering if you've heard the Prokofiev fourth piano concerto for the left hand. What do you think of the chord progressions in the fourth movement of that piece because I find them so interesting.

Sorry I'm being so specific thought I might just throw out a few things. Shostakovich... What do you think of the sixth symphony versus the the tenth symphony. Which do you prefer?

and do you prefer Beethoven/Mahler, or Mozart/Scriabin as symphonists. What do you think of Mahler's Second Symphony, and what would you recommend as my next Mahler.

Also I recently bought Walter Piston's book, Orchestration, what would recommend reading for learning orchestration.

You don't have to answer all of this because I know its really specific. Thank you for listening to classical music

[skysaw]

Hi Seph,

Thanks for the link. I will check it out later.

It's been awhile since I've taken a good listen to any scriabin. I'll have to dig through my CD collection, as I'm sure I have one or two of those symphonies. I recall liking what I heard, but not necessarily being completely enthralled. But as I said, it's been awhile. I regard him as being a bit like Honneger, Milhaud, and Messiaen. All composers I greatly respect, but I can only take in moderate dosages. (I do love Messiaen's "Quartet for the End of Time," though).

I have heard the Prokofiev concerto you mention, but I don't remember much of it. I don't think I have a recording of it.

I absolutely love the Shostakovich 6th! (prefer it marginally over the 10th) I'm a big fan of most of his symphonies, particularly the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 9th, 10th, and 15th. I'm also a huge fan of his quartets. You absolutely must hear the Fitzwilliam play his 15th quartet. It changed my life! (ok, yes, hyperbole). If I remember correctly, it is in six movements, all marked Adagio. Best to set aside some time, turn off the lights, and let it just wash over you.

Personal preference from your list of symphonists is Mahler. The second is a classic of course, as are the first and fifth. I actually wrote a paper on his unfinished 10th symphony as my senior paper for high school. There is a Simon Rattle recording of this piece reconstructed that is quite striking.

But along these lines, make sure you check out some of the Nielsen and Sibelius symphonies, and maybe Martinu. Looking at your list, I feel pretty certain you'd like all of them... especially try the Nielsen 3rd and 5th, and the Sibelius 1st and 2nd. Lush, romantic, beautiful, and strikingly individual.

The Piston book is very good. Of course the orchestration "bible" is the Rimsky-Korsakov, though it's a bit dated. Other than that, my favorite is from Alfred Blatter, though it may be out of print at this point.

By the way, the entire RK book is available as online training on the Garritan forums (http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=55). I was one of the people who helped recreate some of the samples from the book for that. I'm a regular on those forums and share a lot of my compositions there.

[M-Cat]

I'm not sure if you're testing me here, or if you're actually curious. But here you go...

Brahms never married. However, he did lust after Clara Schumann for a number of years. Clara was a famous pianist of her time, but today is more famous for having been married to composer Robert Schumann.
Damn, you're good. Yes it was a test. If you didn't look that up, I'm impressed.

[Moonbeam]

Are they still composing classical music?

I took an art appreciation class once for a credit and actually enjoyed it and still remember a lot of the old artists and recognize their work. Do you think I should listen to classical music and learn enough to tell one from another? The most famous stuff I mean. I feel somewhat under-educated because I can't recognize anything except for like a fifth of Beethoven.

[Ardent Lost]

I'm looking for recommendations for classical music. This seems like a good opportunity to ask somebody!

I'm very interested in classical music with strong a folk influence. I'm talking about the prominent use of such instruments as lutes and harps, for example. I very much enjoy medieval minstrel type music, ala Stella Fortuna (http://stellafortuna.yecompaynyeofcheualrye.com/). Would you be able to recommend any such tradition composers for this kind of stuff?

I'm also very big on 20th century classical music. I'm aware of Stravinsky, Bartok, Varese (my favourite), Zorn, Zappa, Schnittke, Shostakovich, Adams, Cage, Glass.... My request is more focused on current composers though. Are you familiar with any current classical copmosers, and who would you recommend? I don't mind how avant-garde they are really, i'm just interested in current "scenes".

[skysaw]

Are they still composing classical music?

I took an art appreciation class once for a credit and actually enjoyed it and still remember a lot of the old artists and recognize their work. Do you think I should listen to classical music and learn enough to tell one from another? The most famous stuff I mean. I feel somewhat under-educated because I can't recognize anything except for like a fifth of Beethoven.

Yes, they are still composing classical music. In fact, I am one of the "they" you speak of! I have been writing music for over 30 years, and I'm actually having an orchestral piece premiered at the Kennedy Center this Sunday.

The problem is with our terminology. "Classical Music" tends to cover all Western "serious art" music written between 1400-present. But there is also the "Classical Period," which is usually considered anything written between 1750 and around 1820. Usually when we say Classical Music, we are using the first meaning.

The problem with listening to classical music these days is that it is very hard to get good exposure to it, unless you know what you're looking for. If you are lucky enough to have a classical music radio station in your area, chances are their playlist represents a tiny fraction of the repertory. Most of them play a whole lotta Mozart followed by a whole lotta Beethoven, followed by a whole lotta more Mozart. Jeez... no WONDER people think Classical music is boring!

If you do get such a station, try listening late at night, when they get a bit more adventurous, and actually play something written within the last two hundred years. If you're very lucky, you may even get something written in *gasp* the 1900s! How modern!!

[skysaw]

I'm very interested in classical music with strong a folk influence. I'm talking about the prominent use of such instruments as lutes and harps, for example. I very much enjoy medieval minstrel type music, ala Stella Fortuna. Would you be able to recommend any such tradition composers for this kind of stuff?
This type of music is more often than not attributed to "Anonymous." The folk tradition was to pass songs on, learn from each other, but rarely to write down. By the time much of it was written down, the original composer was no longer known.

There are, of course, some very early composers whose names did make it to their pages, though most of these are composers of pieces for larger ensembles and especially choral works, where written pages were a necessity. Machaut, Ockeghem, Lassus, Palestrina come to mind. Stylistically, this may or may not appeal to you... it is not really of the folk variety.

I'm also very big on 20th century classical music. I'm aware of Stravinsky, Bartok, Varese (my favourite), Zorn, Zappa, Schnittke, Shostakovich, Adams, Cage, Glass.... My request is more focused on current composers though. Are you familiar with any current classical copmosers, and who would you recommend? I don't mind how avant-garde they are really, i'm just interested in current "scenes".
Classical music has become so incredibly fragmented that any "scene" you may come across is going to be a rather tiny one, I'm afraid. The last big movement was probably the Minimalists (Reich, Reilly, Glass, et al). There is major incoherence in the Classical arena, much due to loss of public interest, loss in funding for the arts, and an "anything" goes attitude. That's not to say that incredibly interesting music isn't being written, but it gets increasingly difficult to find.

So who are the Classical super heroes of today? There just aren't any anymore, unless you want to go into film composers... and much of that is just awful. (I'm allowed to say this because I am a film composer :D)

[Ardent Lost]

That's funny, i'm keeping film composition open as one of my own options :D

Thanks for the helpful reply!

[skysaw]

There are some good film composers, in my opinion, and I don't mean the big predictable guns of John Williams. Take a listen to some of Thomas Newman, Carter Burwell, or Mark Isham for what I think is a much more interesting approach to scoring.

[Ardent Lost]

I'll definitely look into those names :idea:

[sephiroth clock]

Shandow do you have any other advice for a direction on learning orchestration. I am nearly done with the piston book, I haven't used recordings to look at the written examples in the book, should I do that. Other ideas... Piston recommends studying scores reading one instrument line at a time.

I'm really a beginner to trying to orchestrate, but I have a massive amount of listening experience to draw from because I pretty much only listen to classical music. Piston's book had a lot about instrumentation, I want to learn how to create textures and chords and effects etc.

Any other advice would be awesome, and I'd really like to hear your piece, I have finale if that's an option

[skysaw]

Shandow do you have any other advice for a direction on learning orchestration. I am nearly done with the piston book, I haven't used recordings to look at the written examples in the book, should I do that. Other ideas... Piston recommends studying scores reading one instrument line at a time.

I'm really a beginner to trying to orchestrate, but I have a massive amount of listening experience to draw from because I pretty much only listen to classical music. Piston's book had a lot about instrumentation, I want to learn how to create textures and chords and effects etc.

Any other advice would be awesome, and I'd really like to hear your piece, I have finale if that's an option

I'd recommend going to the Garritan Forums (http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=39) and going through the interactive orchestration course in their General Discussion area. It's a complete breakdown of the Rimsky-Korsakov book, complete with musical examples. RK wrote more about combined instrumental texture than Piston did.

Also, if you want a few free scores you can print out and listen to, feel free to download and print my music from the site in my signature (All Hands Music). I post a lot of my scores and mp3s of the files in the "Listen" section. For large-scale works, try Vesuvius or Equilibrium. For a smaller ensemble, try Autumn Concerto or A Brief Symphony.