Hell, injust punishment

[incubusfunkman]

The idea of hell being the afterlife of those who do wrong is injust. What about those who did not know of the ritches of "heaven" and those who have pure souls but just had a hard time in life, so things went bad, so they eternally suffer for that? for example, if a guy who goes through depression get really mad and does something he will regret later like we all do. execpt he goes to far and beats somebody nearly dead then he dies before he can "ask for forgivness" then his soul is damned? INJUSTICE i say, if this is true and that man would be in hell, then i say that god would be a criminal in a way, he stole that mans astral freedom because he made a simple mistake, now he will never know the wonders of all the astral planes because he is in hell for skrewin up a bit, whats your input on this?

[Alric]

I don't think you go there if you mess up a "bit". I personlly believe that it goes by how you live your life overall. If you spent your life being a good, kind person then minor things will be forgiven. Almost killing someone isn't a "small" thing however. I am talking more about things like you don't always go to church but your nice, or you have sex before you marry but you love them, or you get mad and curse at a family member but you normally act nice and love them. Things like that won't get you sent to hell.

Having a hard life isn't an excuse to act bad though. Everyone has problems, some worse than others but we all do. The basic principle is that you get back what you have done, and in that way God does not send people to hell, they send themself.

Personlly I wouldn't want to see even the worst of people sent to hell forever. I don't like seeing people hurt, even when they do deserve it, so them being there "forever" seems to be an extrame. Even though I don't like it, its far from unjust. Can't expect to live your life as an evil person and go on unpunished.

[incubusfunkman]

not unpunished, of corse not, but going to a place for eternity for something you did in your past makes no sense, is there any sin that can never be forgiving, (aside from what hitler and lots of other mass murderers and such did)

[Alric]

If you kill someone you are sent to prison for life. You only have one life so going away for 70 years because you did something bad young would really suck. Will you forgive the 95 year old person who rapped and murdered 15 people then drank their blood and laughed about it? Its all 70 years in the past.

[incubusfunkman]

you see but that is just sick, thats like a charles manson or hitler type thing, i would understand an eternaty for that,

[Alric]

Well what if you ran into a bank and shot 3 or 4 people then drove out and ran over 3 kids? Not really a planned thing just a little to greedy and bad things happened when you tried to get away.

[incubusfunkman]

i believe that if the intents of your soul were pure then you should still be punished, but not for an eternity, because after all your soul is being punished, not your physical body, not your physical bad intentions, dont you think your soul crys when you do things like that, cuz deep inside you know how your gonna pay for that.

[Joseph_Stalin]

Not that I'm justifying killing thirty people, but who gives anyone a right to judge us (talking spiritual here)? I mean, what if you don't feel like going to hell? You didn't ask to be born in the first place (not saying you could but, it's sort of forced on you), so you should be able to have fun here if you choose. :-P

Besides, if I'm going to go to heaven, and it's sooooo good there, why couldn't I just kill myself? My life could be the worst existance ever. Lost my job after 40 years, just before becoming Vice-President due to some embezzling charges that I had nothing to do with. My wife leaves me, and my kids are brats that are now poor brats, and thus hate me. I drink too much. I harm myself to escape, but it just get's worse. The physcological toll is immense. Religion isn't doing anything for me, but I still have faith in god. I don't want to cause anymore harm to myself or others, so I kill myself. Then I find myself in hell because I did that.

Pretend this guy is called Matt.

{Insert God Here}: Well Matthew, you were a pretty good follower of faith. You gave some money to the poor, but you still could have done better. But when you got fired, you could have just got another job. What is stopping thou from living his life after that?

Matt: forty...forty years, God...FORTY YEARS! That's how long I've been working for that Corporation! You say money doesn't bring happiness, but I was happy! It's called physcology, God. Maybe, I don't know, I've become used to my happy and successful life?

God: I understand your plight, but this is not about me. It is about you. You shouldn't have committed suicide, Matt.

Matt: B-b-b-but, but God! I needed to escape! I wanted to be happy!

God: I am sorry Matthew. Suicide is not the answer.

Matt: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

Alright that's a little exaggerated, but still, it brings certain things to mind.

[Alric]

No offence but that guy sounds a bit crazy. I don't know if what you do when you go insane counts or not.

[Kaniaz]

God knows everything you've done. Your state of mind, your health, your feelings, etc etc. He won't give you something injust.

[IZ]

First off, Stalin, you did choose to live before being born and also you had the choice of your parents.

Second, Outer Darkness (Hell) is a place for the extremely wicked people.

Third, if you truly repent of whatever evil you comited, even if you were controlled by the devil, you will not be cast into hell. But you will be only allowed to enter into the lower Celestial levels of Heaven.

[incubusfunkman]

i like what IZ had to say about this, makes alot more sense, eternal suffering should only be for the extremely wicked, celestail kingdom sound a bit LDS, my family is LDS. but i guess i only beleive in what feels right, not what may seem right, so i turned to LSD insted of LDS, heh. my relegion is "Self". find the answers in your self, not in a book. ok way off subject, im gonna shut up now, peace

[Death-Wuad]

i dont know a whole lot about religion, but the idea of eternal torture is way to extreme for any kind of act you can do on earth. I don't even think hitler deserves that kind of punishment. I think what hitler deserves is a long time (15,000 hours) in hell, then have his existance destroyed. Or he would have to feel 2x the pain he suffered. He would feel that pain, and the feelings he caused, for as long as all of these people have felt it (that means all the suffer time of all the people summed up), then have his existance destroyed.

If somebody was insane and believed that everybody was trying to kill him, then he kills a bunch of people, does he deserve to be punished? No, it wasn't his fault.

[Joseph_Stalin]

Let's see...how many people's death's was he directly responsible for in the holocaust (excluding soldiers on all sides; that's a governmental kind of thing--war)? 6 million? So say he get's 6 million days in hell, that 1,643 years. Do you think that is a just punishment? Though we have no right to judge anyone, only god can do that, what do you think?

[Alric]

Having your "existance destroyed" it worse than hell. And if your going to do it, might as well just to it to start with.

I don't think a day for killing someone is right. Should spend the same amount of time the person would of lived if he didn't kill him. So if he kills a kid that is like 5 he should stay in hell for 90 years or something. Add up every person he did, with bonus years each time someone died in a really painful way and he still be there a VERY long time.

[Death-Wuad]

how would having your existance destroyed be worse than hell? You wouldn't care, you wouldn't think, you wouldn't feel pain, it's not bad or good.

[Alric]

As long as your in hell your still you, if your existance is destoryed then you are nothing. All that you ever was is lost. Of course you wont care because you will be forever dead and gone. Reason people believe in god and stuff in the first place is because the thought of being nothing but a pile of dirt when you die is far to scary for them to handle.

[Joseph_Stalin]

But you would never know you didn't exist. I've pondered this thought for many times.

The thought of not existing isn't scary to me, just interesting...
I mean, you wouldn't feel pain, but you wouldn't feel happy either. You wouldn't feel anything. It's totally undescribable by any standards; you would need to be supernatural or a god or something to comprehend such an "existance".

[Alric]

Well yea, after the fact your nothing so you couldn't care. But you would be nothing. It would really suck if all you are is nothing, just a pile of dirt. People don't want to hear they are nothing but a pile of dirt, that is why people believe in a soul. They hope they are more than nothing. They don't care where they go as long as there is something, anything is better than nothing.

Its easy to comprehend, nothing is just nothing. Your just gone, simple as that. Its nothing to fear, if thats what happens when you die not much you can do about. All I know is I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

[Joseph_Stalin]

I'm talking about comprehending the "Feeling". Which leads me to think about reincarnation: maybe you can't be non-existant, so reincarnation is the only way to stay around.

[evangel]

Originally posted by Kaniaz
God knows everything you've done. Your state of mind, your health, your feelings, etc etc. He won't give you something injust.


I agree... God is just - But he also gives some people what they do not deserve: grace!

I think it's an injustice that ANYONE would be allowed into a place like heaven -based on their own merit.

If we truly got what was "just" (what we deserved) NONE would be allowed into heaven because we ALL deserve hell. :pissed:

"The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and their ways are vile; there is no one who does good. God looks down from heaven on the sons of men to see if there are any who understand,
any who seek God. Everyone has turned away, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one."
Psalm 53:1-3

[Human]

Originally posted by evangel+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(evangel)</div><!--QuoteBegin-Kaniaz
God knows everything you've done. Your state of mind, your health, your feelings, etc etc. He won't give you something injust.
If we truly got what was \"just\" (what we deserved) NONE would be allowed into heaven because we ALL deserve hell. :pissed:
[/b]

Do you believe in this punishment?

[evangel]

I believe that the entire human race is fallen (sinful, imperfect, mortal, etc.) and in need of redemption. Therefore, nothing we "do" can be seen as good or righteous, unless we have the clothing of perfection (Christ) which is brought about by the sacrifice of a perfect human being... Thus, those who are clothed in Christ will be deemed righteous (given the gift of eternal life) in God's eyes, but not because of anything they have done - only because of God's grace -which comes about through faith in Christ.

So, yes, I do -for some, though I cannot ultimately say or know who.
:flyaway:

[Human]

It is also very difficult to find out what the Bible say about this.
(By reading the Bible, I get different viewpoints about it all the time. :? )

[evangel]

Originally posted by Human
It is also very difficult to find out what the Bible say about this.

Actually it's not. Anyone can pick up a copy at a library or bookstore and read it for themself. I'm not saying there is only one right view, but the orthodox Bible interpretations are pretty standard in their translation (KJV, NKJV, NASB, NIV...) -I know that some wacked translations also exist, but that is why it's up to the individual to be a student and not just swallow what the preacher, teacher, priest, or anyone else says. And there are ways to determine which translations have withstood tests and undergone the scrutiny needed to validate them -by textual analysts, historians, and all kinds of translators both secular and religious...

[OpheliaBlue]

I've just never really warmed up to the whole idea of a "wrathful god" in general. I mean, he's supposed to be our "father". Not a sadistic prison warden.

Besides, when we do bad on earth, we also get our punishment here, in some form. Kinda like being grounded. Hehe, see now, THAT'S more like a father! Why waste all that time and energy upkeeping a hell and sending us there when he can just punish us while were still here on earth. Goodness knows I have been :? .

[OpheliaBlue]

LOVE your quote, by the way, evangel!!!!!!

[Joseph_Stalin]

There isn't always an earthly consequence, though. Murderers and rapists get away all the time, and quite a few have psychological disorders that make them unable to feel guilt, so...I dunno. :?

[OpheliaBlue]

I see your point, Joseph_Stalin.

But any way you look at it, neither is flawless. We're under-punished on earth, and over-punished in hell.

[Joseph_Stalin]

Perhaps then we must think of better ways to punish on Earth... :evil:

[OpheliaBlue]

Like Chinese water torture, or bamboo shoved under the finger nails! :shock:

[Evanescent]

At age 13 i don't know whats worse. :D

[evangel]

Originally posted by OpheliaBlue
I've just never really warmed up to the whole idea of a \"wrathful god\" in general. I mean, he's supposed to be our \"father\". Not a sadistic prison warden.

I don't think that anyone has warmed up to it... That doesn't mean it is not true. Often times the truth hurts :cry: . God is the father of those who love him and has no obligation to anyone or to anyone's expectations of him.
To me, the idea of God as a \"lovey-dovey father-figure\" is more of a charicature and even an insult to his character. Yes he is loving and forgives those who seek him earnestly with a true desire to know him and what he requires. But hell is a just consequence for hearts that are eternally at enmity with God and always desiring their own exaltation. Perfect peace requires perfect justice.

Oh, and I don't believe God is the warden. He probably has hired/designated hands or has designed hell in such a way that it doesn't need a warden. :angel:

LOVE your quote, by the way, evangel!!!!!![/b]

Gee thanx! :D

[OpheliaBlue]

I don't believe he's a warden either. I've just seen/heard too many pictures of him painted that way. I don't believe he's the opposite extreme either. I just think he's alot more fair than some give him credit for.

[Alric]

There is a difference between fair and wrathful. I would like to think the god I believe in wont strike you down and throw you into hell forever just because you disagree with him.

[Human]

Originally posted by OpheliaBlue+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(OpheliaBlue)</div>Besides, when we do bad on earth, we also get our punishment here, in some form.[/b]

I agree with that.
It is a lot of punishment on earth.
But when a person punish a other, it is difficult to know if God had decided it or if the person punished the other because of his free will.

<!--QuoteBegin-OpheliaBlue

Why waste all that time and energy upkeeping a hell and sending us there when he can just punish us while were still here on earth.

I think that He rather could let sinners die, instead of punish them in 'hell'.
If He don't let a man go to Heaven, it is no need to send him in 'hell'.
He could rather avoid that the man goes to Heaven.

I don't think it is necessary to punish them just because they not are allowed in Heaven.

One of my friends believe that a man who isn't allowed in Heaven, are punished with being dead and unconscious. Not any punishment in 'hell'.
He has also said that 'hell' is named after a place where they burned dead people.
But it is propably difficult to know if that is true or not, since it was a very long time since it happened.

[OpheliaBlue]

HUMAN: All good points.

Especially: But when a person punish a other, it is difficult to know if God had decided it or if the person punished the other because of his free will.[/b]

Like a hangman with a taste for blood. :P

[evangel]

Originally posted by OpheliaBlue
I just think he's alot more fair than some give him credit for.

I agree totally. God is absolutely fair and just.

Problem is that many times we have a faulty system of gaging what is fair and tend to be biased towards coming up with a "fairness" that makes us feel better or grants mercy without consequences... I still think that we all deserve condemnation/separation from God/hell (these are one and the same). I don't necessarily view hell as one place where eternal brimstone and fire exist, since scripture also alludes to separation from God as being a place of eternal darkness where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth." Just as we cannot fathom heaven, I don't think we can fathom hell.

To me, this all points to our need for reconciliation and our need for a perfect "lawyer" (if you will) or advocate who pleads on our behalf before God for mercy upon those who deserve wrath (but as a result of his love, they instead gain grace and gifts which are undeserved). Hell was originally intended for the fallen angels -those who rebel against God and seek to usurp his throne, but is also the destination of those who, under the curse of sin have no faith or reconciliation in Christ.

[Human]

Originally posted by OpheliaBlue
HUMAN: All good points.

Thanks.
That was an very positive reply.

[OpheliaBlue]

Human: Hehe........I know, really positive, and really thorough! :roll:

;)

[incubusfunkman]

whoa, this topic really got dragged on didnt it, i forgot about this one

[evangel]

Yeah, what a drag, huh?

There are lots of threads that have "dragged" on much longer than this one on the forum. There are even some that were started months ago, were forgotten, then resurrected.... so I guess I'm saying whatcher point?
:whyme: :undecided: :aphiusiscrazy:

[kufu91]

for on thing we did chose to be born. we knew we would have pain and we knew some would be evil. also there is no eternal hell. people only go there after being given a chance to repent (after dieing) and we only suffer enough to pay back what we did. after we go to the terresteral kingdom wich is better than earth. god gives us what he can.

[Joseph_Stalin]

We chose to be born? Please clarify.

[kufu91]

ok. when we are born we dont "recive" life. we existed before birth. there was a choice, to live with free will and possibly not go to hevan, or we would have no free will and automaticly go to heven. those who chose to have no free will did not recive physical bodies and were sent to earth. those who chose to have free will were sent to earth with phsical bodies and a chance to go to haven.

[evangel]

fffffffarrrr out... :eh:

Did you receive this revelation via the 6th dimension or something?
:wink:

...or is this a teaching of a religious group/affiliation?

Why don't we remember this "choice?"
And what do you mean by free will? :|

[kufu91]

its a religious thing. im mormen wich is one of the only religions that belives in a pre existance, baptism for the dead, three seperate kingdoms of heaven and the belif that hell does not last forever.

we do not remember this choice to see if we really belive in what we chose.
by free will i mean the abbility to choose.

[evangel]

Originally posted by kufu91

we do not remember this choice to see if we really belive in what we chose.
by free will i mean the abbility to choose.


Uhhhh :eh:

Joseph Smith, eh? I'm curious to find out what ever happened to those golden tablets he claimed to have at one point ...or to that supposed archaological evidence of certain Native Americans (or was it the lost tribes of Israel) living in Pennsylvania and New York

Whose trying "to see" if we really believe in what we chose? Doesn't make sense to me.

And many others believe in pre-existence, specifically those who believe in reincarnation.

[Joseph_Stalin]

Alright here's a challenge to that pre-existance stuff.

Say I'm born as a Morman, and then I have a crisis of sorts, and decide to become, I dunno, a buddhist. So in your philosophy, do I go to heaven or what?

[Belisarius]

If the Christian God were just, he would visit unimaginable and infinite torture onto every sinner. Every offence is unfathomably great because it is an offense against the infinite and thus cannot be paid back in a finite way. So then Christ sacrificed himself for the sins of the world, because Christ, being God and therefore infinite, could repay for the sins of the world, whereas the finite world could not.

Every human is saved by Christ's death, there can be no hell under the theology of a Christian God.


Of course none of this matters because there can be no sin when God is Omnipotent and Omniscient and thus the Christian theology is completely discredited because of its basis on origional sin as the cause of all problems.

[kufu91]

to ansewer Joseph_Stalin's question when oyu die oyu most likely would still be a good person. so after oyu died oyu would have a chance to be taght and batized again, if oyu dont accept the church still oyu would go to the telectial kingdom which is less than celestial but still much better than anything on earth. and to argue with Belisarius the tourture would not angainst the infinite. Also christ is not god he is the son of god. people are only forgiven of their sins if the know it is wrong ask forgivnes from god and the person that was hurt by it (if their was one) and make it right to the best of their abilaties. so not everyone is saved. and their can be sin when God is Omnipotent and Omniscient because he gave us our free will. althogh many christian religions have problems for those who look for them i have not found any in mine.
http://www.geocities.com/mrhoboman91/someguys.bmp

[evangel]

Originally posted by Belisarius

Every human is saved by Christ's death, there can be no hell under the theology of a Christian God.
...the Christian theology is completely discredited because of its basis on origional sin as the cause of all problems.

I'm not sure which Theology you are referring to. Nowhere does it say in scripture that everyone is saved by Christ' death. If that were the case, you could remain a murdering adultrating pedophile and still have the confort of knowing that \"you're saved\" :roll: Jesus taught about hell which is equated with \"condemnation\" and separation from God many times - as referenced in each of the Gospels. Not to mention the teachings about hell of Paul, Peter, John, etc.
For example:

Matt. 18:9
\"And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.
Matthew 23:32-34 (speaking to Jewish religious leaders)
\"Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
\"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.\"
John 3:18-19 (not so famous verses that follow the often quoted John 3:16)
\"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.\"

If the Christian God were just, he would visit unimaginable and infinite torture onto every sinner. Every offence is unfathomably great because it is an offense against the infinite and thus cannot be paid back in a finite way. [/b]

That's some good Theology there, B. Sadly, even many "Christians" disagree with (despite it being clearly taught in scripture). But, while being just, he is also merciful to those with hearts that are repentant.

[Joseph_Stalin]

Ah, so basically say that one religion was right, and I was born into it, but gave it up for another. However, I was really, really kind and compassionate. I wouldn't go directy to heaven, but a sort of second-rate heaven? Sorry if I'm a little confused here...

[kufu91]

its not like oyu would live horribly if oyu dont go to the right church. its still hevan. its like a huge town and there are 3 sized houses. ones a mansion (celestial) the second sise is a slightly smaller mansion (terrestial) and the thired size is the size of the biggest house there could be without it beeing a mansion (tellestial) http://www.geocities.com/mrhoboman91/someguys.bmp

[evangel]

What about people like Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin (no offense Joseppi :wink: ) What size house do they get? Or are they in the basement... :undecided:

[Joseph_Stalin]

I think we live in the sewers...but I can't *Ouch!* see anything....me and Addy have been trying to get some light for a couple of decades now...and Genghis Khan hasn't been helping much either. :shock: