What if god was proven non-existant?

[Joseph_Stalin]

Okay, say, hypothetically, god was proven not to exist tomorrow. Totally proven. No loopholes, no errors in calculation, just proven not to exist. The 'truth' I mean. Meaning in this situation there is nothing of god.


What would all those religious people do? What would the wise masters of faith do?


I dunno, I just see the pope's head exploding or something to that affect. :shock:

Seriously, I just think a lot of really religious people would get depressed, angry, and upset (they might cause riots, bombings, etc. to scientific facilities). The scientists would go to the bar for a couple of drinks and say "hey boys, we've finally done it! And they laughed! They all laughed! hahahaha! Who's laughing now?" And maybe the atheists would have a party too, maybe even with the scientists. But for the most part there would be a lot of tension.


What do you think?

[Alric]

I think it depends on what you proved. If it was just there is no "god" I can see a lot of it going on just how it is now. If you prove there is no after life, well then you have some major problems.

Even without a god you can have some "force" behind everything.

[Je33ica]

Originally posted by Alric
I think it depends on what you proved. If it was just there is no \"god\" I can see a lot of it going on just how it is now. If you prove there is no after life, well then you have some major problems.

Even without a god you can have some \"force\" behind everything.

I second what Alric said...uh...typed.

There are many religions that don't believe in God but believe in an afterlife. Buddism is one that comes off the top of my head (and they call the afterlife "nirvana").

However, if there were absolutely no forces whatsoever... no afterlife, no God/gods, no spirtuality... then I believe people will automatically think "I'm gonna die and be non-existent anyway, why not have some fun?" (in other words, there would be more problems, wars, criminals, broken hearts, immoral acts, etc.)

[Umbrasquall]

I agree with that. I think religion holds more merit in society then many atheists are willing to grant. Even IF there is no God, and religion is just a carefully constructed human institution, it's still an important establishment in history. Sure it causes its wars, but it also holds society together during harsh times, and gives hope for many to lean on.

[incubusfunkman]

i could see a lot of preist and such having nervous breakdowns if god was undoubtably nonexistant. alot of panic and confusion would take over the greater park of the world. so much circles around the idea of a one all mighty god that if he were proven nonexistant then i think we might experiance some kind of modern dark ages.

[Death-Wuad]

I agree with Incubus. I would have to say religion is like a drug.

[Kaniaz]

Either:

"They must of got it wrong!"

or

War.

[Joseph_Stalin]

Like what Je33icaLy88 said is what I meant.

No after-life. Nothing. Nothing to hold on to.

I was thinking the same thing to. Why not have some fun?

Not to mention all the greedy bastards who will now exploit the poor even more. If being rich makes them happy, they have no reason to worry about going to hell by doing what they must to "succeed".


So I was thinking, after a few decades of war and confusion, we could really have a new world order. Some manipulative leader comes and says to all "Religion has failed you. I will not." And the whole world is united under his rule, under a new government that is the religion. All forms of religion are banned and religious workers are murdered, and all associated with religion and possess religious works are killed as well. Religious writing are burned. Athesists are slaughtered for claiming god does not exist, since they are aware that there is a god in the first place. Scientists are praised for their supreme knowledge, and are offered the highest places in society. The accidential creation of god is forbidden as well. Within a few generations society has automatically accepted this fact. There is no god to think about, because society has erased it from existance. History books are re-written to suit this purpose. All are required to enter the field of science. Civil services are fufilled by machines at this point. Full automation has consumed society. The main vision of this leader is to have the most advanced society ever--the cost does not matter.

Then there's the fact of whether this is really right or wrong? Who is there to judge? And if the people are really happy, who has the right to interfere? Who would even think of interfering if they are that happy?

Of course the only men not under this influence are the high leaders. :wink:

[Alric]

Ok now I really don't think any of that would happen heh. I think a lot of people would go kill themself but then I think a lot would try to live forever. If you get the technology to live forever then it isn't so bad.

[Joseph_Stalin]

That's true but life would get really boring after a while. And not to mention how scared and nervous you would get when that happens. If there is nothing to look forward to except non-existance and never knowing it, why would you ever want to stop taking the life-extending drugs? It's a cycle of mental self-destruction.

[Alric]

There is always something new. I don't think life could ever get boring.

[Joseph_Stalin]

You'd get depressed with monotony of certain things. Out-living you rgrandchildren and great-grandchildren, etc. would get very depressing as well.

[Kaniaz]

Originally posted by Joseph_Stalin
You'd get depressed with monotony of certain things. Out-living you rgrandchildren and great-grandchildren, etc. would get very depressing as well.

Not if they took the drugs as well.

[Alric]

Yea if they all took it to they would all live a long time as well. Then after a few 1000's years your family would be pretty big, could spend another 5000 years just getting to know them all and by then you would have even more!

Always would be new stuff being made that could be fun, or you could spend 10,000 years just looking at old stuff from the past. Could move around and see stuff all over the planet and by the time your with all that we might have space travel figured out and you can go fly to another planet. Always something to do.

[Joseph_Stalin]

Originally posted by Kaniaz+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kaniaz)</div><!--QuoteBegin-Joseph_Stalin
You'd get depressed with monotony of certain things. Out-living you rgrandchildren and great-grandchildren, etc. would get very depressing as well.

Not if they took the drugs as well.[/b]

Good point. But say hypothetically only you took it. The above might just happen (depression I mean).

[Suffocate]

If this were to happen, I'd be a happier man.

The religious folk? It wouldn't be pretty. Some people's lives revolve around the potential existence of a God. There would probabaly be some form of mild chaos.

[Evanescent]

Why would you be happier?

[Suffocate]

Because I already believe it, and now I wouldn't have to argue as much :D

[Evanescent]

K so what do you believe.

[Suffocate]

I do not believe that God exists.

[Evanescent]

ok what else do you believe.

[Suffocate]

In regards to what :?:

[Evanescent]

What is your religion, how we were made.

[Je33ica]

Suffocate is an atheist (I believe, from what he's said) so he actually doesn't believe in anything. Being an atheist, you lack belief.

[Suffocate]

Originally posted by Evanescent
What is your religion, how we were made.I'm an Athiest. I believe evolution is responsible for what we've become today. I also am uninterested in arguing the valididty of evolution with you, if that was your intent. Religious arguments are never productive.

[incubusfunkman]

your not an atheist, as je33icaly88 said, athiest lack beliefe, and you do not

[Haruko]

So long as he disbelieves in a supreme being, he is, by definition, an atheist.

a·the·ist ( P ) Pronunciation Key (th-st)
n.
One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.[/b]

[Belisarius]

I don't think it is possible to prove that something outside of this universe does not exist. You could prove that God never interfered with the universe, but not that he(not that it's a person) doesn't exist. I think that's probably the most likely explaniation of the universe. A completely infinite, omniscient and omnipotent God created it. Because he is omiscient he doesn't need to interefere with it, he just sets it in motion and it conforms perfectly to his will.

At the same time there are probably spiritual mediums, like light, sound, and electricity, that we cannot readily percieve, and probably others that we can't percieve.

Then again there may be something to the collective soul that is God, thing, or the theory that history is God expanding and breaking up into space, and eventually he will return to himself(in other words God was what exploded in the big bang, but it wasn't just matter).

[Joseph_Stalin]

Atheists do not believe in the existance of god of gods. That doesn't mean they don't believe anything.

Besides, Atheists will probably not celebrate, in fact they might even comfort the ones who believed in god.

Oh yeah, and by the way, when this topic become a one-sentence debate on the religious preferences of one person? I could have cut your whole conversation short by combing 4 sentences. And I'm not being a cynical fool here. I'm serious.

[incubusfunkman]

i stand corrected

[Je33ica]

Originally posted by Haruko
So long as he disbelieves in a supreme being, he is, by definition, an atheist.

a·the·ist ( P ) Pronunciation Key (th-st)
n.
One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.[/b]

But I thought that being an atheist was a lack of belief in absolutely everything (including afterlifes, souls, etc.)

So does that mean that Buddists are atheists?

I am so confused... :whyme:

[Awaken]

Originally posted by Joseph_Stalin
Okay, say, hypothetically, god was proven not to exist tomorrow. Totally proven. No loopholes, no errors in calculation, just proven not to exist. The 'truth' I mean. Meaning in this situation there is nothing of god.


What would all those religious people do? What would the wise masters of faith do?


I dunno, I just see the pope's head exploding or something to that affect. :shock:

Seriously, I just think a lot of really religious people would get depressed, angry, and upset (they might cause riots, bombings, etc. to scientific facilities). The scientists would go to the bar for a couple of drinks and say \"hey boys, we've finally done it! And they laughed! They all laughed! hahahaha! Who's laughing now?\" And maybe the atheists would have a party too, maybe even with the scientists. But for the most part there would be a lot of tension.


What do you think?

The faithful would tie the truthbearers to stakes and start burning them systematically...

[Haruko]

Originally posted by Je33icaLy88+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Je33icaLy88)</div><!--QuoteBegin-Haruko
So long as he disbelieves in a supreme being, he is, by definition, an atheist.

a·the·ist ( P ) Pronunciation Key (th-st)
n.
One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.[/b]

But I thought that being an atheist was a lack of belief in absolutely everything (including afterlifes, souls, etc.)

So does that mean that Buddists are atheists?

I am so confused... :whyme:[/b]

I don't know. Ask a professor. All I did was read the definition off of dictionary.com and confirmed it on my Webster's dictionary. According to the provided definition, what atheism is lack of belief in a god or gods. It says nothing about believing in absolutely nothing. Did you get that off a dictionary?

[Joseph_Stalin]

Buddhists are Buddhists. If they are technically atheistic I'm not sure.

[Awaken]

Why bother with labels...isn't it enough to say you're non-religious, or you don't believe in the supernatural? Labels are often quite vague.

[Haruko]

Indeed.

[Awaken]

Technicalities sometimes bother me. I'm accused of something I'm not because of a label and so I'm rather bitter about them :P

[Joseph_Stalin]

It's not a label. It's a religion. A set of ideals and beliefs that have been molded for centuries. Buddhists are just what they call themselves; it's not something like our culture that sees one thing and names it "goth" or "punk" for example. The people that partake in the religion know exactly what it is.

[Awaken]

Originally posted by Joseph_Stalin
It's not a label. It's a religion. A set of ideals and beliefs that have been molded for centuries. Buddhists are just what they call themselves; it's not something like our culture that sees one thing and names it \"goth\" or \"punk\" for example. The people that partake in the religion know exactly what it is.

I chose the word label because of the obvious confusion over the word "atheism", rather than any kind of organized religion. Atheism is obviously a vague reference which is open, to an extent, to interpretation.

I'd rather not fight over what to call something anyways, as it would be defeating the entire purpose of my argument :) I understand the idea behind the word, and I'm sure most other people do too...

[sme_bro]

i havent read the topic yet but i do have a qtion that-if answered with a answer that makes me think, will cause me to read the whole thing and engage myself in it.
how can somthing for which there is no proof of existance already be proven to not exist?

its like me saying 'ah huh, i have proven that there is no naturaly green skined people on this planet'
because i have...

[Awaken]

Originally posted by sme_bro
i havent read the topic yet but i do have a qtion that-if answered with a answer that makes me think, will cause me to read the whole thing and engage myself in it.
how can somthing for which there is no proof of existance already be proven to not exist?

its like me saying 'ah huh, i have proven that there is no naturaly green skined people on this planet'
because i have...

The original question was *what if*.
There is no way to prove the nonexistance of a theory like God at this point, because proof relies on real-world physics and logical understanding in tandem. However, there is also no way to prove the existance of God because it requires one to accept metaphysics as part of reality.

[Joseph_Stalin]

You see, this just leads me to believe that we are still to primitive in human form to really comprehend anything besides what we create with our own minds. Sure, the concept of god was created by humans, but even those humans did not fully understand what god was.

[evangel]

Originally posted by Joseph_Stalin

No after-life. Nothing. Nothing to hold on to.
I was thinking the same thing to. Why not have some fun?
Then there's the fact of whether this is really right or wrong? Who is there to judge? And if the people are really happy, who has the right to interfere? Who would even think of interfering if they are that happy?


One problem is, some peoples' idea of "fun" involves the torture and destruction of others...

Since I believe God to be the author of reality as we know it, this idea would be an impossibility, however, if I were an atheist (which is really another way of saying "delusional agnostic" :-P ) I would most definitely and logically have that attitude: If there were nothing to look forward to and I knew there were nothing to look forward to after death, why seek anyone's happiness but my own? Carpe Diem. The implications of everyone having this same amoral/non-moral attittude would be rapid downward spiral towards mass destruction. (since hypothetically, everyone would put their own self-interest before everyone elses).

And the concept of God is, to me, something that is revealed, not "created" as with all knowledge...

To me, anyone who has ANY moral inclination evidences an implicit or subconscious knowledge that God exists -or at least a knowledge of punishment/witholding of reward after death (karma).

[Awaken]

Personally, my take on human existence is quite simple. I don't expect anything after death. If I did, it would simply defeat the purpose of having an intrinsic sense of morality in this lifetime, because I would be relying on someone else's set of morals as a key to attain the supposed everlasting peace.

I don't need someone to tell me how to be a good person. I'm fully capable of doing that on my own. To me it is more logical to make the CURRENT life as pleasant as possible. THAT is my intrinsic motivation to be a selfless, caring individual. If that means I'm going to hell, then existence itself is flawed, and God is actually a self-serving asshole!

Conforming to a set of ideals, and preaching it to others, in order to satisfy the possibility of riding fluffy clouds all day after I die is beyond me.

[sme_bro]

Originally posted by Awaken
I don't need someone to tell me how to be a good person. I'm fully capable of doing that on my own. To me it is more logical to make the CURRENT life as pleasant as possible. THAT is my intrinsic motivation to be a selfless, caring individual. If that means I'm going to hell, then existence itself is flawed, and God is actually a self-serving asshole!


my sentiments exactly-well said
well i did get an answer which cleared it up-this is a "what if" topic, so 'what if' god were proven to not exist? i dont think it would change anything for me at all, life would continue, i am a biological organisim and so my primary objective in the long run are to reproduce but because i am also gifted with intelligence i can do a whole lot more, like read and make things and think. If i were to be told that god does not exist i doubt it would change much because i would still do the same things i had set out to do.
I think the veiw of god is warped anyway, if there were a god who are we to know what pisses him off or makes him happy, i know if i were god i would be watching in earnest to see what my creatures did and how they evolved, and when intellegent life evolved i would be glad and would let them do whatever they wanted because in all likelyhood they will eventually be gone anyway.
i wouldnt say NO PRE MARITAL SEX

[Awaken]

Originally posted by sme_bro
I think the veiw of god is warped anyway, if there were a god who are we to know what pisses him off or makes him happy

Excellent point. So many religions, each one 'KNOWS' it is the right one, and each one tells its followers what God wants from them. Some say God wants them to kill innocent people, some say the afterlife is more important than this life, some say God wants people to go door to door preaching his word, and the bottom line is that the only real 'proof' of any of this is a long, drawn out story about what supposedly happened 2, 5, 10 thousand years ago...The sickening part about it is that so many people in power pass it off as truth and force others to live by it (ie Dubya on gay marriage). PLEASE. A huge chunk of humanity is forced to live under superficial rules which do nothing to invoke any kind of resolution between different beliefs. The religious think the non-religious need to be 'saved'. It's the old "we know what's good for you better than you do!" technique. Keep bleating.

If there could be a perfect religion, it would be one which says 'love thy neighbour' and NOTHING more. NO bible, NO ten commandments, NO creeds or prayers or hope of everlasting life, NOTHING which tells people the 'right' and the 'wrong' path. People aren't inherently incompetent. Complex idealistic morals make people incompetent.

I have no problem with people who simply believe in a higher power, as long as it does not interfere with my life, or anyone else's in any way. If someone needs to believe in the stuff to feel happy, I'm more than happy to recognize that fact, but the truth is, *I*, and many others do NOT need it. We're going to hell, you say? Well, if going to hell means I can be with people who share my sentiments, fuck heaven :)

[evangel]

...it would simply defeat the purpose of having an intrinsic sense of morality in this lifetime, because I would be relying on someone else's set of morals as a key to attain the supposed everlasting peace.[/b]

Actually, you wouldn't function in society if you didn't already do this every day (rely on \"someone else's set of morals\"). The process of socialization includes a set or sets of people AGREEING ON a standard of moral principles, (religious teaching aside) If you think you have your own individually arrived at set of moral standards, then you're living in your own universe...



To me it is more logical to make the CURRENT life as pleasant as possible. THAT is my intrinsic motivation to be a selfless, caring individual.

Why make it just \"pleasant\" when you could fulfill yourself in each and every moment? If I were to believe in non-existence after death, it makes more sense to me that I would seek my own pleasure continually and not waste my time worrying or sacrificing for others' well-being. Otherwise, you're just coasting by and not truly living or making the most of your limited time -what would be the point in that?

Conforming to a set of ideals, and preaching it to others, in order to satisfy the possibility of riding fluffy clouds all day after I die is beyond me.[/b]

Apparently, concepts of heaven (or any form of afterlife) are also beyond you. Fluffy clouds? :roll: C'mon now. For someone who doesn't like to be preached to, you sure seem to like preaching your own ideologies.

sme_bro wrote:
If i were to be told that god does not exist i doubt it would change much because i would still do the same things i had set out to do. [/b]

Why?

... if there were a god who are we to know what pisses him off or makes him happy[/b]

It's called spiritual discernment - which can only be attained through faith.
And by "the view" of God I assume you're speaking of "the Christian view?" since there are thousands of views.

[Awaken]

Originally posted by evangel

Actually, you wouldn't function in society if you didn't already do this every day (rely on \"someone else's set of morals\"). The process of socialization includes a set or sets of people AGREEING ON a standard of moral principles, (religious teaching aside) If you think you have your own individually arrived at set of moral standards, then you're living in your own universe...

I don't agree on ANYTHING just because other people do (if this was not the intent of your argument, please correct me!). As a child I did, simply because I looked up to those I believed were more intelligent than myself. These days I base my moral decisions on being helpful and supportive to others wherever I can. I get this knowledge from my own mind. If you think that making up my own mind definitively means that I'm in my own universe (that felt REALLY condescending...), well, I'll stop there.

Originally posted by evangel

Why make it just \"pleasant\" when you could fulfill yourself in each and every moment? If I were to believe in non-existence after death, it makes more sense to me that I would seek my own pleasure continually and not waste my time worrying or sacrificing for others' well-being. Otherwise, you're just coasting by and not truly living or making the most of your limited time -what would be the point in that?

You obviously didn't understand what I was getting at...

'Pleasant' is just a word. Don't take it so literally. I *DO* fulfill myself in each and every moment by helping others and being a trustworthy, selfless individual. Did you actually read the paragraph or did you focus on the word 'pleasant'?

It's fine that you tell me what you would do in my situation, but remember, you are NOT in my situation. Don't assume what you don't understand.

Originally posted by evangel

Apparently, concepts of heaven (or any form of afterlife) are also beyond you. Fluffy clouds? :roll: C'mon now. For someone who doesn't like to be preached to, you sure seem to like preaching your own ideologies.

Once again you focus on words instead of ideas. It's pretty shallow to assume I actually meant that I think religious people are looking forward to flying the cumulus as God's copilot...

[sme_bro]

Originally posted by evangel

sme_bro wrote:
If i were to be told that god does not exist i doubt it would change much because i would still do the same things i had set out to do.

1)Why?

... if there were a god who are we to know what pisses him off or makes him happy[/b]

2)It's called spiritual discernment - which can only be attained through faith.
And by \"the view\" of God I assume you're speaking of \"the Christian view?\" since there are thousands of views.[/b]

1)why? -because at the moment i live without care of god or attention to 'him', so it would make no difference to me.

2)yes thousands of views, so why dont you question what you are following when so many people follow it in a different way? religion made sense when there was no science and people needed a way to explain things, now there is science and explanations (which could change) and i am happy with these.
if god were prooven to exist i would humbly bow and say im sorry.

[Awaken]

Originally posted by sme_bro
2)yes thousands of views, so why dont you question what you are following when so many people follow it in a different way? religion made sense when there was no science and people needed a way to explain things, now there is science and explanations (which could change) and i am happy with these.

Ever notice the general trend towards godlessness these days? I guess the only explanation is that science is the devil...

[Joseph_Stalin]

Well, science has been created by man, which is either good or bad, and thus science can be put to great things (nuclear power), or destructive things (nuclear weapons).

It is sad to say that a lot of scientists create theories and such with good intentions, but "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". ;)

[evangel]

I don't agree on ANYTHING just because other people do (if this was not the intent of your argument, please correct me!). [/b]

I didn't say that. What I'm saying is that the same morals standards you live by are in general the same ones 95% of most societies live by. They are not \"your own\" morals. In other words yes, you have your own mind, but without shared understanding of those morals, societies would not function. You are unique, yet not so unique (socialized) just like everyone else.

You obviously didn't understand what I was getting at...
...
It's fine that you tell me what you would do in my situation, but remember, you are NOT in my situation. Don't assume what you don't understand.[/b]

What I DON'T understand is why someone would subject themselves to any selfless moral standards when a full life is not guaranteed (I would not invest any time or waste time in selfless acts if I thought there were no eternal repercussions because I could be dead next week. Instead I would seek my own advancement, power, success, gratification, etc.)

Once again you focus on words instead of ideas. It's pretty shallow to assume I actually meant that I think religious people are looking forward to flying the cumulus as God's copilot...[/b]

Unless there is some kind of indication, I usually assume that people mean what they write. So you awere being sarcastic... Obviously you have some kind of disdain or disrespect for an idea of heaven -either a charicatured view of what Christians believe heaven is like -or maybe you could expain why you wrote that to me?

Ever notice the general trend towards godlessness these days? I guess the only explanation is that science is the devil...[/b]

Actually science is awesome. The idea that science is opposed to religion or "the devil" is ridiculous and extrememly humanistic.
This topic has come up on several other threads...
Scientific theory, as you know is in constant flux, so much of what is "true" today may be disproven 100 years from now. Science is increasingly moving in the direction of proving what religious scholars and Theologians have claimed for centuries.
Science is convenient for daily "present time" living and for advancing technology and society, but it barely scratches the surface of spiritual Truth.

As far as a "trend" I see nothing of the sort... In fact, I see trends moving in opposite directions (towards faith and religious acceptance). Either way, trends come and go like the wind.

[Awaken]

Originally posted by evangel

I didn't say that. What I'm saying is that the same morals standards you live by are in general the same ones 95% of most societies live by. They are not \"your own\" morals. In other words yes, you have your own mind, but without shared understanding of those morals, societies would not function. You are unique, yet not so unique (socialized) just like everyone else.


That's fine, I couldn't agree more...People need to be able to agree on things to function properly together (such as I am right now :) )

Originally posted by evangel+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(evangel)</div>
What I DON'T understand is why someone would subject themselves to any selfless moral standards when a full life is not guaranteed (I would not invest any time or waste time in selfless acts if I thought there were no eternal repercussions because I could be dead next week. Instead I would seek my own advancement, power, success, gratification, etc.)[/b]

A full life is in the mind of the beholder. Fulfillment is completely based on an individual preference. To some, helping people at a homeless shelter is fulfilling...If everyone was self-serving and didn't care about others, it would be a sad world :(

At the same time, however, I am always looking to better myself. It's a balance - I help others, and I help myself at the same time...

Originally posted by evangel@

Unless there is some kind of indication, I usually assume that people mean what they write. So you awere being sarcastic... Obviously you have some kind of disdain or disrespect for an idea of heaven -either a charicatured view of what Christians believe heaven is like -or maybe you could expain why you wrote that to me?

I'm sorry if I offended you...It was a general statement and I figured it would be obvious that it wasn't meant to be taken literally. It didn't really fit the 'mood' of the rest of my post. It was meant to stand out...

<!--QuoteBegin-evangel

Actually science is awesome. The idea that science is opposed to religion or \"the devil\" is ridiculous and extrememly humanistic.
This topic has come up on several other threads...
Scientific theory, as you know is in constant flux, so much of what is \"true\" today may be disproven 100 years from now. Science is increasingly moving in the direction of proving what religious scholars and Theologians have claimed for centuries.
Science is convenient for daily \"present time\" living and for advancing technology and society, but it barely scratches the surface of spiritual Truth.

As far as a \"trend\" I see nothing of the sort... In fact, I see trends moving in opposite directions (towards faith and religious acceptance). Either way, trends come and go like the wind.

I think there are certain aspects of science which conflict with religion, which have been proven without a shadow of doubt. Of course, science cannot take into account metaphysics, and so most aspects of religion cannot be proven or disproven. The problem with religion (to a purely-logical mind) is the lack of solid, tangible proof. I know there are things in the world which exist today which have been spoken of in the Bible and elsewhere, but to someone like myself, it really isn't enough...'Coincidence' comes to mind...I'd rather not dispute this, because it's just what I see. Neither of us is wrong, it's simply how each of us perceives truth. Faithful vs. skeptical thinking, I suppose. Neither is supreme.

As for the trend towards or away from religion, the separation of church from state was one hit to the religious community, gay marriages was another, legalizing drugs in parts of Europe was another (Christians hate drugs, right?), and attitudes in general towards religion seem to have changed. For example, Christmas is no longer about Jesus, it's about commercialism (not that this is good, but it must signify something). It seems every year people get more and more miserable about Christmas.

I suppose this could have nothing to do with faith in itself, necessarily, but it could, right?

[Joseph_Stalin]

Science is indeed awesome, but it sometimes (like religion) lacks tangible proof.

Example: There was this thing about not being able to create or destroy matter. We can't be that sure this is correct.

Gravity is a little shifty too, but a little more believable.

[Awaken]

Originally posted by Joseph_Stalin
Science is indeed awesome, but it sometimes (like religion) lacks tangible proof.

Example: There was this thing about not being able to create or destroy matter. We can't be that sure this is correct.

Gravity is a little shifty too, but a little more believable.

Yes and no. Out in the depths of the universe somewhere I can understand that there are phenomena we cannot understand - but I think it's safe to say that on Earth, gravity naturally exists, and matter naturally is not created/destroyed - to any observable or impactful measure, anyway :)

[L0s7 4 Lyf3]

Well, the zealous types would be REALLY pissed IMO, at the discovery of the non-existence of god. But you can't say religion, because there are many religions in the world that don't have a god. Also by saying 'god' in that context you are referring to the catholic/christian god. Buddhism for example doesn't have a god at all, though many people think it does because they use the commonly used arguement, "well why is it called buddhism?" well Buddha was just a religious thinker from long long ago. Buddhists just follow his teachings and ideas and think often upon how to improve their surroundings and everything in general.

I can mostly agree with your statement that there are no wars without 'god' because all the wars in history that i can think of off the top of my head, the leaders who started the war used religion in part to justify their actions of killing people. Except the Second Punic War, I know Hannibal Barca did that one out of spite of the Romans.

Technological growth however, most likely wouldn't be stopped at all, if anything accelerated because you wouldn't have the religious types trying to disprove things in established science because it was detrimental to their religion.

[Awaken]

I really hear you on the no-emotion thing. People have become so concerned with how they are viewed on a socially-acceptable level that they have forgotten about what it is that makes them human. If people could learn to be more observant of cause-and-effect I think they could understand the intentions of others better.

Some of the most peculiar ideas have come up in society - it's like people are afraid of who they are. This is what I've faced over the years:

Coolers are for girls! Be a man, drink a beer!
Why don't you have a girlfriend yet?! Are you GAY (in a teasing manner)?! (I'm not - it is an assumption based on the expectation of one having a specific partner by a specific time in life).
Mopeds/scooters are for losers!
"I'm gonna kick your ass for seeing something I don't, just because it makes me feel better about my own ignorance on the subject, and I've been told it's the right thing to do!"
You're wearing the same pants as that guy (completely by chance)! omg what a loser!

And the list could go on...but I'll stop in the interest of - wait, wtf is this thread about? :P

[Joseph_Stalin]

*crosses fingers* please don't rape my thread, please don't rape my thread...


Science would definately skyrocket. Most ethics are usually from a religious stand-point, so stem-cell research and even cloning would advance faster. Within a decade most diseases would be gone, seeing as radical developements in scientific fields would have to boundaries (except for laws that is; but even still, I can work in a deserted island all I want on cloning :D).

[simisu]

took me some time... but I got through all of this thread and I have to say!
I agree with almost every word you said awaken! (I actually wanted to open a topic about some of the things you've mentioned on this thread...)

I think religion was invented to ultimately answer the questions that STILL don’t have any answers!
who am I? (what is it that makes ME... my consciousness? what's that?)
What’s going to happen when I die?
(is it all a dream? What’s the point?)

I think atheists are people that understands the uselessness of these questions and the conclusion is simply to experience the fullness of life in all its splendor and with all its shit as well...
cuz after all these are things we CAN NOT know... there is no way to prove any theory or hypothesis about this stuff!

take the responsibility for your OWN doing/saying (be your OWN god!)
you have the choice and thus YOU are the one also responsible for it!

Some of the most peculiar ideas have come up in society - it's like people are afraid of who they are.[/b]

you can also say...
When you are afraid you lack self-confidence and you rather not be responsible for your actions (for example telling a joke or throwing a side note about something in a funny accent just so that it wouldn’t be YOU that's saying it...) and fear is being fed to us from everywhere!
That’s way I think people are pleased with having faith in god...
"god's will" ("it wuss'nt me" :) )
Well you don’t have to be special to see that if god HAD a will and was here things wouldn’t be like they are (famine hate war AIDS TV dirty governments.... and in short unhappy people... all over)

So I think now when there is no god (coming back to the point :) ) and we all realize we have only our self to count on (and there's no more reason for god to tell us what's right or wrong... we've got plenty of proof where ever we look... and I believe it's also something that's inherent in everyone)
And we'll just make the most of this thing called life...
That’s what it's all about right?

Being good to your fellow man is something you can do to make YOUR life better... i dont need a god to tell me that :)
being human has its rules... and every human knows it...
but we also know we're able to brake them (that's why civilaization has laws... but the angst that we all feel about society is becouse people forgot why laws were invented in the first place and now all they seek to do is exploit them for their own good... humans are selfish no matter what but the trick it to be selfish in a non selfish manner :)

phew... rambling abit...
sorry :wink:

[simisu]

oh and...
this is just a little quote from Modest Mouse...
as i agree with most of what they say...

If God controls the land and disease, and keeps a watchful eye on me, if he's really so damn mighty, well my problem is that I can't see, well who'd wanna be? Who'd wanna be such a control freak? Well who would wanna be? Who would wanna be such a control freak?

and i say... just let life flow...
and as long as we stay true and "good" everything will be ok...
goddamn i hope i'n not too naive :roll:

p.s
watch "Waking Life" 8)

[Awaken]

simisu, you are incredibly wise. I understand exactly what you are talking about - and I feel you have trouble describing the feelings you have because you are in your normal waking state WHEN you describe it. Right now I'm up on some mushies and I think I can explain exactly what you are feeling, in words.

Please tell me if you have ever experienced this feeling:

God is everything and everywhere. It isn't some incarnation of a human being, it is the energy force which encompasses the entire universe. Everything works together and works against itself as One. What can be explained at a microscopic level is explainable on a Universal level - we are part of life on an energy plane - not just simple, mortal creatures, but part of a Universal Life Force. The earth is thought of as a stagnant rock with some stuff on it - but, like I said, microscopic = macroscopic. Human beings as an entity are acting on the planet as a disease would on a human being. The earth is reacting, on a large scale, just as a human being would on a cellular level. We pump noxious fumes into the air, the temperature rises, and the planet starts to die. We as human beings are sucking up all the life force of the Earth with our wars, political unrest and ignorance for the importance of every individual human being, rock, tree, and indeed everything in the entire Universe. People in a society need to stop putting the focus on things at such a trivial level. There is no "right" path, there is only *THE* path. The path for each of us. Each of us is part of a force, and if we keep fighting one another, we will swallow the earth up and cease to exist.


That feels conclusive enough for a basic understanding, I think :P
Please let me know what you think.

[simisu]

well...
something like that :D

becouse life = energy (and all energy wants to do is be divide eaquely)
i think what we ARE is actualy energy that has a choice of where to go... where to divide to...

existance wants to become ONE static thing... but it can't... its endless!
where does that leave us?
i dunno
but if we only look at ourself (and each of us is a whole world!) at our planet you could say that we are all one!
and you're right... as long as we keep fighting rather then sharing energy... it aint going to be much fun over here :|

i see many people start to think these things from all sides (a good example would be "Waking Life" which i assume you already seen...)
i've been thinking these stuff forever basically and yeah it's been hard to put in words! much easier now though...
my personal state has had much to do with that but i wont go in to that right now...

have good tripping... wish i knew how THAT is :)

[Awaken]

I WISH I could say I've seen it! Ugh I keep forgetting about it :S I will see it for sure...

[simisu]

thank god for Emule KAZAA and soulseek (and all the rest of'em) AMEN!
:P :wink:

[Awaken]

Bittorrent and newsgroups :D

[Joseph_Stalin]

Not that any of us condone the use of such programs.... :)

[Awaken]

I condone many things :)

[wer]

If there was proof there was no God, reliogion fanatics who devote there whole life worshoping God, would either kill themselfs, thinking that there purpose for living was gone, or would deni it. But, however, if it was proven that there was no afterlife, death would be feared a lot more then it is now, and most people would'nt want to have "fun" because if they got themselfs killed, they'ed know that they would be gone forever.

[dreamscape]

Think about you are made from you mom and dad in the process known as makin love. They are also made fro that same process. All of us are made natural occurenses that has nothing to do with god. ut i still do believe in him cause we all have to come from somewhere right?