Believe it or not... (Interesting)

[Human]

I am really not sure what I believe about this:

ARE YOU LIVING IN A COMPUTER SIMULATION?


BY NICK BOSTROM

Department of Philosophy, Oxford University
[/b]

Read about this theory here: http://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.html

As far as we know, we could live in a illusion.
I have heard that we propably are living in a hologram. One of the reasons is that it is easier to explain black holes if the universe is a hologram. (Pursuant to some scientists. But it is very difficult to prove, anyway).

-If we really lives in a computer simulation, who are simulating us?

-Why are they simulating us?

-For how long time are they going to simulate us?

That is some of my questions.
I wish this could be easy to find out...
(To know what the universe we live in really is, is propably a wish to most of the humans. But it isn't something we usually ponder about during the day).

Any comments or viewpoints?

[Lord of the Flies]

Very interresting. Possible even. I'd say scary, but then again it would expain a lot of things.

I don't believe it though, this world is too complexe, you'd need a computer to run on 5 nuclear power plants to create a single country!

[evangel]

Reminds me of a virtual reality movie called the 13th floor.

Yeah, but if you think of our computers as being archaic and extremely slow, the possibility seems more possible...

The human brain is also a computer - albeit a very complex one.

[Human]

Originally posted by evangel

The human brain is also a computer - albeit a very complex one.

I agree with that.
I think the brain is made by some few rules, but the possibilities are so many that humans don't are so predictable.

The biggest question is how it is possible to make consciousness with computer technology, if it is possible.

[Belisarius]

In whichever kind of universe this computer is in, it would have to be on an entirely differnet level of complexity. It would take at least two atoms to make a single transistor switch in a stream of transistor switches not to mention power supply and a thousand other complexities.

It would be impossible to simulate the universe by computer.

[evangel]

ANYTHING is "possible" -but then the question becomes, if such advanced technology could be created, what would the repurcussions or consequences be? Many theorize that such technology would inevitably be used for evil, ending in catastrophe.

[Seeker]

Anybody ever hear of the game Creatures? All those cute little Norns running around? They almost seem human in the way they can learn and react. They grow, learn, reproduce, age. They don't know that they are living in a 2-D simulation and are really neural networks.

[Nebulae]

ANYTHING is \"possible\" -but then the question becomes, if such advanced technology could be created, what would the repurcussions or consequences be? Many theorize that such technology would inevitably be used for evil, ending in catastrophe.[/b]


it is ending in catastrophe, look at our world! anyway, there is a good book called The Holographic Universe.

[theroguechemist]

Originally posted by Belisarius
In whichever kind of universe this computer is in, it would have to be on an entirely differnet level of complexity.
I agree. If the universe were a simulation, then the laws that govern this universe would be a simulation as well. The Creators need not create a universe structually similar to theirs; for all we know, their universe is entirely different in nature, possibly existing with different particles that are behaviorly different from our beloved atoms...

It would be impossible to simulate the universe by computer.[/b]
I believe it would be. A universe in which our universe's simulation is run wouldn't necessarily run a 'computer', but the abstraction holds true. meh, i don't know what i'm saying.

my friend came to me with this idea a few days ago... i doubt he envisioned it himself.

[evangel]

Originally posted by Nebulae

it is ending in catastrophe, look at our world!

There's a lot of crappy stuff going on as a result of malicious and selfish use of technology, but we're not at the point of the kind of catastrophe I was alluding to (large-scale world wide catastrophe...) VR and other advanced technology is actually pretty awesome and can be used for a lot of good things, but unfortunately it takes just a few people to ruin it for all the rest of us.

[Joseph_Stalin]

Originally posted by Seeker
Anybody ever hear of the game Creatures? All those cute little Norns running around? They almost seem human in the way they can learn and react. They grow, learn, reproduce, age. They don't know that they are living in a 2-D simulation and are really neural networks.

Ah, I remember that game. I liked it a lot. Can't find the disk though...
Anyway, the Norns didn't really "Think" it was just a creative simulation. Stimulus, Response. Cause and Effect. That's all these games (and maybe even our brains...beginning at a raw and chunky level, and branching out to various different places to cause an emotion) are at their cores.

However, reading that guy's theory, it lead me to think of something myself. Now, say one simulation, the first one ever created, survives to the posthuman level. Now, they create a simulation, but this one never makes it to the posthuman level, and the experiment ends from there. Now as much as the blame would be favored to land on the first simulation, the problem stems from the "real" post humans (just added that for confusion ;)). We aren't perfect, and as such we cannot create a perfect simulation of perfect people. Their world might end at the first world war they have, or they might go extinct because of some ancient uncooperation.

Also this world must not have any signs of outside tampering or persuasion of sorts. Meaning that just because someone is buddhist, doesn't mean they should carve one of their mountains with a giant buddha head. This isn't a video game, and the more observant people will see the head and maybe start creating idolship around it. The same thing goes for any other religion. If you're Christian, don't leave Jesus' cross standing still on a mountain, visible during sun-rise.

Religion aside, don't do anything stupid. Don't put your girlfriend's name in English or Korean, or French. Interaction would ruin the experiment (sorry if the guy said any of this before, I'm afraid I only read some of the document).

So that's what I am saying. :)

[Kaniaz]

Who cares how slow the computer is. Perhaps it takes 1 million years for the computer to compute a nanosecond of movement all over Earth. Put the program can just say freezebrain(), spend a million years doing the experiment, then unfreezebrain(), so to us it seems like no time has passed but to them a million years has passed.

You might think, "but that'll take almost forever to complete!". Well, who is to say there isn't an branch of science we are programmed to not discover but simply attempt to discover called "time travel".

[Human]

Originally posted by Kaniaz
Who cares how slow the computer is. Perhaps it takes 1 million years for the computer to compute a nanosecond of movement all over Earth. Put the program can just say freezebrain(), spend a million years doing the experiment, then unfreezebrain(), so to us it seems like no time has passed but to them a million years has passed.


That was a good point.
As far as we know, their main computer are maybe still working with programmed tasks, even when they have found something more interesting to do.
The very constructive thing with computers is that they can be programmed to do tasks, even you are far from the computer and are doing something quite different.

[bradybaker]

I have heard that we propably are living in a hologram. One of the reasons is that it is easier to explain black holes if the universe is a hologram. (Pursuant to some scientists. But it is very difficult to prove, anyway).[/b]

When scientists say that we are living in a holographic universe, they aren't talking about the kind of hologram you see on Star Trek. It is not anything like that and is not created by a computer system.

In the theory of the "holographic" universe, the term hologram is simply an analogy used so that people can more easily understand the actual concept. Here are a few exerpts from a paper on the theory:

"Aspect and his team discovered that under certain circumstances subatomic particles such as electrons are able to instantaneously communicate with each other regardless of the distance separating them. It doesn't matter whether they are 10 feet or 10 billion miles apart. Somehow each particle always seems to know what the other is doing. The problem with this feat is that it violates Einstein's long-held tenet that no communication can travel faster than the speed of light. Since traveling faster than the speed of light is tantamount to breaking the time barrier, this daunting prospect has caused some physicists to try to come up with elaborate ways to explain away Aspect's findings."


"The three-dimensionality of such images is not the only remarkable characteristic of holograms. If a hologram of a rose is cut in half and then illuminated by a laser, each half will still be found to contain the entire image of the rose. Indeed, even if the halves are divided again, each snippet of film will always be found to contain a smaller but intact version of the original image. Unlike normal photographs, every part of a hologram contains all the information possessed by the whole. The "whole in every part" nature of a hologram provides us with an entirely new way of understanding organization and order."

"A hologram teaches us that some things in the universe may not lend themselves to this approach. If we try to take apart something constructed holographically, we will not get the pieces of which it is made, we will only get smaller wholes. This insight suggested to Bohm another way of understanding Aspect's discovery. Bohm believes the reason subatomic particles are able to remain in contact with one another regardless of the distance separating them is not because they are sending some sort of mysterious signal back and forth, but because their separateness is an illusion. He argues that at some deeper level of reality such particles are not individual entities, but are actually extensions of the same fundamental something."

Here's the link:
http://www.earthportals.com/hologram.html

[grim_reaper]

Once again, I'll apply my way of thinking here... it's impossible - otherwise the creators would've blocked any possibilities of us even thinking about it... they'd surely know to do it if they were intelligent enough to create such a simulation...

[Remus]

Originally posted by grim_reaper
Once again, I'll apply my way of thinking here... it's impossible - otherwise the creators would've blocked any possibilities of us even thinking about it... they'd surely know to do it if they were intelligent enough to create such a simulation...

Or..They could be studying how long it would take us to think of this..xD

[Human]

Originally posted by grim_reaper
Once again, I'll apply my way of thinking here... it's impossible - otherwise the creators would've blocked any possibilities of us even thinking about it... they'd surely know to do it if they were intelligent enough to create such a simulation...

I don't think we are able to stop them anyway.
Unless we have a genius like Neo in the Matrix movies...