Pornography: Who here has been a victim of it.

[IZ]

No this is not a joke, but a serious topic.

Pornography is everywhere and it destroys character. And maybe you are some person who sees it as no big deal. But it does effect the way we live our lives and make our choices or even can make us feel ashamed by believing that you have broken a religious rule. Now I cant say that I myself am innocent. And I do not deny that I have never seen it or even enjoyed it. But we are humans with emotions that can become confused in this world and do foolish things. But one must conquer is mind and become stronger in mind.

What are your views on pornography. Dont be shy. :oops:

[Gwendolyn]

Pornography is in the top ten of lowest forms of entertainment. Besides the fact that it is utterly demeaning and stupid, it just isn't ethical. It's also illegal. I'm not a religious person and morality has nothing to do with it, in my opinion. It's just a parade of low character.

[O'nus]

I am an animal. I am human. I try to give my primal nature more purpose with delusions of fate and life with culture, but, quintessentially, we are all still dependant on sex in order to survive.

It's natural, and I think it is just plain stubborn to think low of anyone who likes sex.

Yes, I have pornography, and there's nothing wrong with that.. sheesh.

[KalmaH]

Originally posted by O'nus
I am an animal. *I am human.

Exactly what I would have said. As long as you don't become obsessed or a rapist or something like that I see nothing wrong with it.

[Dracco2.5]

I can say without a doubt in my mind that as far as porn goes.... well there's more bad than good. :wink:






:cry:


I'm not for it. I'm just sickend by it.

[O'nus]

Originally posted by Dracco2.5
I'm not for it. I'm just sickend by it.

I am curious; if you find sex or pornography disgusting, what about children? Having children? Since sex is the key to survival, these questions arise then if you find the perpetuation of our species to be "immoral".

It's no wonder so many neurotical hysteria is sexually related; we are cultured animals, we have the same instincts as any animals: eat, shit, pay taxes, fuck, and die.

What is sick about finding the opposite gender attractive? Is it not "cute enough"? You can't seriously say that you have never had any sexual fanatsies, because you know that is not true. You also can't seriously say that you have never been attracted to someone.

What is disgusting about pornography? Is it immediately associated with hardcore, disrespectful, or masochistic and pedophile thoughts? Why immediately associate so many ill-thoughts to such a good thing? People who are in love have sex all the time.

Maybe I need to get laid.. *Shrugs*

~

[Alric]

I am sure everyone has heard this before but its true so I will repeat it. Anyone who says they never looked at pornography before is lieing. That goes for girls too and it goes double for people who have the internet.

[Gwendolyn]

I do not think that sex is disgusting and I am not challenging your worth as a person, O'nus. Please do not think that. I merely think that the kind of Porn on the net is a giant exploitation of sex. We all have our own opinions. Your opinion O'nus is just as valid as any, and I commend you for having an opinion

[Taosaur]

Porn creates jobs, therefor porn is good for America :D

More seriously, I'm pro naked people, pro physical intimacy, and anti-porn. Some of it seems innocent enough--some college girl clicking her own mouse on a webcam doesn't hurt anybody, I guess. But most of it is pretty sadistic, and has very little to do with healthy sex. I mean, the facial? This is the standard finale in any contemporary porn movie, and it is all about humiliating the woman. I'm all for opening up in loving intimacy or simple mutual gratification, but internet porn is all about being closed, being calloused, being hard. It's one big, sick, revenge fantasy aimed at all the ex-girlfriends of the world. It would be great if people were making more movies integrating positive sexuality with other aspects of human life, but to zero in on just sex, then break that down into all these ritualized fetish acts? It cheapens our culture.

I won't even go into what it does to people caught up in the industry.

[McGoo]

I agree with O'nus 110%, pornography is a natural extension of our human need for sex. I can understand perhaps ignoring normal sexual desire because of religious beliefs but that's all it is, ignoring what should be natural. Allthough that is commonplace in many major religions. Saying porn isn't ethical/is disgusting is an opinion, saying porn is "violent" is a generalization, and saying porn is illegal is just a fallacy.[/quote]

[LewisM]

I am pro-porn.

I know of the arguments that pornographers and porn companies are exploiting what our society deems sick fantasies, or are degrading to women, and I think these are valid points. However that does not deter me.

There are a lot of things in this world that are dangerous, but I don't think it is worth abolishing something as pleasing to the eye such as porn, to save the few that become perverted or addicted (Id like to add that I am not pro-everything. For example, I believe smoking, at least in public or cigarettes in general should be illegal).

Then there is the matter of pornography that is directly aimed at exploiting sick fantasies... aggressive stuff... snuff. I don't really know what to say here, but know that I don't like this stuff, however I don't care what other people do with it.

Another question to raise is whether or not young ones (such as myself) should be exposed to porn, like I am.

[Neil]

I have quite strong views on this.

There is nothing wrong with porn.

As has already been said, we are humans. We need to eat, we need to urinate, we need to sleep, and we need to ejaculate.

It is cretinous to attach morality to masturbation.

Having said that, it is much better to be in a loving relationship and to share intimacy with your partner. But realistically, many of us are single and need to fulfill this urge with the help of a magazine.

I do understand the issues people have with it. Some people become addicted to sex, just as some people are addicted to food or money. It is unhealthy to dedicate your life to any of these base impulses. I have some friends who spend all their money buying clothes and working out and trying to have sex. I see sex as merely a distraction from our real goals in life.

Just to reiterate: It is cretinous to attach morality to masturbation

[Gwendolyn]

What about child pornography? Come on....One reason I am against porn altogether is because of this. Children who were used for some sick pervert's amusement? How could anyone agree with this. That is not what I would call a natural thing. Intimacy, sex, masturbation is all healthy, but the exploitation of women and children is certainly not, in my opinion. That is not to say I am going to judge anyone's character by this, but I just don't believe it it a good thing.

[Neil]

Hang on, I think you are confused. Child pornography is not normal pornography. Any children involved are obviously being abused. Adults who choose to get their breasts out in a magazine for lots of money are not being abused.

I get aggrivated when people confuse issues like this.

This topic was supposed to be about pornography, not the culture of pornography.

I drink coca cola. I like the taste. If a certain percentage of retailers has bad managers who treats its employees badly, I will not stop buying coca cola. At the most, I would buy coca cola from a reputable company who treats its workers well. The product of pornography itself is not evil, but the way it is made can be. So to say that pornography in principle is bad due to exploited workers is fallacious and silly, as it is nonsensical.

[Death-Wuad]

Why is it that everybody always assumes its the women who are demeened? Why not say- men are being viewed as sex toys on t.v's! When I call some girl a babe, I get slapped. When some girl calls me a stud, am I supposed to take that as a compliment?

Seriously though, I really don't think porn is immoral or anything, but when you have 12 year kids, then it's just plain wrong. There is a reason why nambla (north american man boy love association) doesn't get what it wants- kids know hardly anything about about love and sex. To exploit them is completely immoral and you should be castrated if you do.

[IZ]

Sex is natural, yes, but porn is a man-made fantasy. Pornography depicts wemon as sexual objects. Yes, its a beautifull thing, ( A womans body) But to the extent of herself being used to the amusement of men is not right. And Porn also makes people believe that all wemon just want to have sex all the time and thats all they are good for in this world. But the point I want to make is that Sex is a passion that lovers have, but porn just converts Sex into a fun and pleasurable thing thats changes our way of thinking that this is the way sex should be.

And I'm with Taosaur with the humiliating woman, with facials and what not. Making them smile for the camera, Seems as if they were only thinking of the money that they would get paid with.

Oh and Child Pornography, its just out of my time right now. But this is what happens when you take a step into the porn world. A pervert is created.

[Neil]

Your opinion that pornography is immoral has no actual weight to it does it? Why have such baseless opinions? :P :roll:

Pornography may degrade women but it is their choice to take this job. While it is true that some women stoop to this profession because they are very poor, there are labour laws that ensure that people are treated fairly in all types of employment. :shock:

Thats like saying in the 18th Century, "I hate coal because miners get dirty and sometimes get carbon minoxide poisoning." They may well do, but you can't criticise an object itself based on the way the object is obtained.

Also, we are talking about the practise of viewing pornography, not the rights and wrongs of of filming it.

If you disagree with me, please reply with a logical explanation as to why I am wrong. Its all very nice to state one's opinions but is very worrying when people have opinions with such little actual reasoning behind them. This is the philosophy forum. 8)

[Gwendolyn]

Originally posted by Neil
I have quite strong views on this.

There is nothing wrong with porn.

As has already been said, we are humans. We need to eat, we need to urinate, we need to sleep, and we need to ejaculate.

It is cretinous to attach morality to masturbation.

Having said that, it is much better to be in a loving relationship and to share intimacy with your partner. But realistically, many of us are single and need to fulfill this urge with the help of a magazine.

I do understand the issues people have with it. Some people become addicted to sex, just as some people are addicted to food or money. It is unhealthy to dedicate your life to any of these base impulses. I have some friends who spend all their money buying clothes and working out and trying to have sex. I see sex as merely a distraction from our real goals in life.

Just to reiterate: It is cretinous to attach morality to masturbation

Yes, but child pornography is a part of pornography altogether, and of course they are being abused, but it is still pornography.

[Death-Wuad]

2 aliens come to planet earth. One of them eats Human babies, and the other Helps human babies. Does this mean that all aliens are inherintly evil?

[simisu]

i think we're better off with porn then without it!
if somehow all porn would magically disappear and no one would make any more... and there will be no whores to service the men... well... you'd have a massive rape wave all over the world!
it's pretty extream but i do think that porn serve's a purpose...

now...
on the other hand i wouldn't like my future kids to be exposed to it (untill their old enough...) and i think that parents today should be aware of this problame! it's all about good education!


i've watched enough porn in my life to the point that i no longer enojy it at all... all i see is how fake it is and it makes me sick...
but it has a right to exist...

there's some good in it and alot of bad you just got to know how to approach it and treat it (that's why kids are better off without it ti'll they know what's what!)

[KalmaH]

Originally posted by Gwendolyn

Yes, but child pornography is a part of pornography altogether, and of course they are being abused, but it is still pornography.

Child pornography is not pornography at all. In normal porn, as it's been said by other people in this forum, everyone (including women) CHOOSE to be in these films. They know the consequences of their actions or at least they should. In any case they get paid a ton of money so there is NO expliotation.

Child pornography IS exploitation. It's sick! The children involved in this have no idea what is happening, and I doubt they see a single penny. In any case it might be the parents that see the money and if this is the case the parents should be hanged... with a powerline so they are being electocuted while they are hanged... all inside a gas chamber. Same goes to any adult that has anything to do with child porn.

[CT]

Originally posted by Gwendolyn+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Gwendolyn)</div><!--QuoteBegin-Neil
I have quite strong views on this.

There is nothing wrong with porn.

As has already been said, we are humans. We need to eat, we need to urinate, we need to sleep, and we need to ejaculate.

It is cretinous to attach morality to masturbation.

Having said that, it is much better to be in a loving relationship and to share intimacy with your partner. But realistically, many of us are single and need to fulfill this urge with the help of a magazine.

I do understand the issues people have with it. Some people become addicted to sex, just as some people are addicted to food or money. It is unhealthy to dedicate your life to any of these base impulses. I have some friends who spend all their money buying clothes and working out and trying to have sex. I see sex as merely a distraction from our real goals in life.

Just to reiterate: It is cretinous to attach morality to masturbation

Yes, but child pornography is a part of pornography altogether, and of course they are being abused, but it is still pornography.[/b]

Thats like saying snuff movies are a part of movies alltogether.

[Alric]

Yea porn degrades men just as much as it degrades woman. Or do you think men chose to be in porn while woman are forced into it for them money? Now that is degrading statement

[Lowercase Society]

Just so everyone can hear...er...read my opinion on porno:


THE STORY LINES SUCK, they are so freaking cheesy.
Wouldn't you all agree.

[IZ]

I'm sorry if I offend anyone in any way, you can even ban me or even cause my name to look bad. But if you think that porn is a good thing than you are a corrupted soul.

[ffx-dreamz]

Haha, Im 13....Im expected to be corrupted. :P

[CT]

Whats up with this weird old fashioned prejuidice that porn, and sex and intimacy are evil, and shouldnt be seen?
Why the hell do you care anyways? Dont like it, dont watch it.
But just because you dont like it, it doesnt seem to be ethical IN YOUR OPINION, just ignore it or something, dont go making a fuss about it! Why cant people just allow other people to do what the hell they want, if guys want to watch porn let them, they're not hurting anyone, if women want to do it as a job, let them. Shield your kids from it, but dont act like its an immoral thing to do and that it should be illegal. Its not your right to judge that.

[Taosaur]

A lively discussion! The pros are putting up a better argument than the cons, I think. My problem with 98% of the porn out there is that it upholds the idea that sex is dirty. It doesn't speak to the varieties of natural sexuality, but instead repeats a series of lame fetish images over and over. I think this taboo/fetish dichotomy in our culture leads to bad sex.

As for the industry:

Neil wrote: *you can't criticise an object itself based on the way the object is obtained.[/b]

Yes, you can. When you buy a product, you are funding the continuation of the process that created it. If that process involved misery, coercion, and desperation, then you are funding a more miserable, coercive, and desparate future. It's simple cause and effect.

[simisu]

who the hell buys porn?
you can download it :D

and i totally agree with CT!
as long as no one gets hurt they can make all the porn they want!

and if anyone has a problame with it they should take a look at them selves and see what it is and not blame anyone alse for it!

it's kinda like: guns dont kill people - people kill people!
and its the same with drugs
and with porn
and with prostetution
and gambling
and religion

so basically what i'm saying is.... once you abuse something it's wrong... and as long as it's in good taste and no one get's hurt... LET IT BE !
(and you know what they say about taste... can't argue about that :D )

[Lowercase Society]

Sex. Sex is something sacred. To be shared with two people.

These two people who are commiting the act of sexual intercourse have something between them that no other being should see. It is sacred. It is holy, above all else.

Sex is meant for 2 people's eyes, and their eyes only.

Sex is not meaningless...it is the only physical act that involves NOT only the body, but the SOUL too...no matter how much you argue, if you have had sex you will realize that it is deeper than just an orgasm, or pleasure, it involves deeper commitment, and should never be abused, such as with a stranger, or for an audience.

[simisu]

so.............
you think we should outlaw porn? censure TV? make everyone wear decent cloths?
ristrict and bind our minds? marry younger?
just to keep the act of sex pure?

[Neil]

For heaven's sake, why is sex sacred ? WHY ?

IZ, I feel sorry for you that you believe that those who like porn are corrupted because you don't even realise that these "morals" have been plucked out of the air.

[Lomebririon]

Originally posted by Lowercase Society+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lowercase Society)</div>Sex. *Sex is something sacred. *To be shared with two people. *

These two people who are commiting the act of sexual intercourse have something between them that no other being should see. It is sacred. It is holy, above all else.

Sex is meant for 2 people's eyes, and their eyes only.

Sex is not meaningless...it is the only physical act that involves NOT only the body, but the SOUL too...no matter how much you argue, if you have had sex you will realize that it is deeper than just an orgasm, or pleasure, it involves deeper commitment, and should never be abused, such as with a stranger, or for an audience.

[/b]
Indeed an interesting viewpoint my friend. A valid one, but the gift of laying it on thick is strong within you.

There is nothing wrong with pornography, it panders to one of the most basic human instincts. the need to procreate. It is ingrained into our DNA and basic behavioural patterns. It satiates the need to procreate within those who are unlucky enough not to have a mate.

Originally posted by IZ@
But if you think that porn is a good thing then you are a corrupted soul.
Ha! A true christian statement if I ever heard one! I suppose you think the devil was always in the bible too. :roll:

Throughout our history, one society after another has erected elaborate social constraints to control and channel the instincts governing sexual behavior which we inherit from our ancestors. Most social systems have tried to keep women monogamous, and their mates committed to help raising the children. Some attach high value to preventing females from copulating until they are properly married, i.e. the virginity complex. Others have tried, with indifferent success, to keep husbands from playing around on the side as well. Probably this effort to control our primitive sex drives has become as much a part of human nature as the language learning instinct.
Something so ingrained into our minds is bound to overflow to some aspect of our lives sooner or later.

<!--QuoteBegin-CT
Whats up with this weird old fashioned prejuidice that porn, and sex and intimacy are evil, and shouldnt be seen? *
Why the hell do you care anyways? Dont like it, dont watch it. *
But just because you dont like it, it doesnt seem to be ethical IN YOUR OPINION, just ignore it or something, dont go making a fuss about it! Why cant people just allow other people to do what the hell they want, if guys want to watch porn let them, they're not hurting anyone, if women want to do it as a job, let them. Shield your kids from it, but dont act like its an immoral thing to do and that it should be illegal. Its not your right to judge that. http://e.deviantart.com/emoticons/c/clap.gif
Brilliant! He has a very valid point. These morals and viewpoints come from an era where people actively thought with every fibre of their being that they were going to burn in purgatory for all of eternity if they strayed from the churches teachings.


This topic itself may have been a result of hormones. Perhaps a result of that \"disgusted with self\" feeling after the act. That is not the result of your morality kicking in. The copious amounts of hormones that compelled you to \"do the deed\" have just taken a sharp nosedive, leaving you with nothing but pornography and your ding dong in your hand. A natural reaction would be to blame the subject of your lust. However you must look to the cellular level to see the true cause.

Pornography is only truly a problem when it begins to interfere with aspects of your social life.
e.g. Not going out with friends so you can stay home and masturbate.

This may be the thought of many, that everyone who owns pornography is like this. However this is not true, like many other aspects of society; some take it to extremes, consciously or subconsciously.

I suppose this arguement will go the way of politics and religion. Oh well, we can't please everyone.

Originally posted by simisu
who the hell buys porn? *
you can download it :D http://e.deviantart.com/emoticons/l/lmao.gif

[evangel]

Originally posted by Lowercase Society
Sex. *Sex is something sacred. *To be shared with two people. *
...
Sex is meant for 2 people's eyes, and their eyes only.

Sex is not meaningless...it is the only physical act that involves NOT only the body, but the SOUL too...


:goodjob2: Couldn't agree more. (...Actually I could since I believe that even further sex is created for a man and a woman - who are married - but that's 'nother can o'worms)

Porn is twisted and destructive. Nearly all sex criminals have been connected to a porn-based lifestyle or at least a connection to porn. That should say something...

The porn industry (including those who consume porn) seem hell-bent on proving that sex is not sacred. I don't think the word is in their vocabulary. Many make the claim that we are simply animals or without souls/spirits or "eternal consequence." If we're animals, then why don't we behave like them without any moral convictions? In other words, we are moral beings and everyone has a conscience (though some people choose to sear thir own consciences) So the "amoral" approach or argument carries no weight. If you at least say that porn is not immoral, it is the same as saying porn IS moral (good). Yet with all the negative fruit, how can anyone say that porn is good for anyone?

It seems some (CT, Neil, Lome, and maybe some others) are making the argument that morality is subjective or "each is to his own" as far as moral judgments go. If that is true, then we have no grounds for judging the pedophile, necrophile, or any other perverted wanker ('scuse my English) out there. If morality is subjective, there is no authoritative standard. But someone must be the one to make the final judgment on where the line is crossed from moral to immoral in regards to porn. How would you choose this person or authority. There's a double standard there, I think. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Alric]

Originally posted by evangel

Porn is twisted and destructive. Nearly all sex criminals have been connected to a porn-based lifestyle or at least a connection to porn. That should say something...


That doesn't make sense at all. What if I said nearly all sex criminals ate a donut once in their life, I guess we should outlaw donuts because they cause people to become sex criminals.

[Alric]

By the way there are animals who mate for life and with only one mate. So having sex with a ton of different people isn't something I would call natural.

[evangel]

What if I said nearly all sex criminals ate a donut once in their life, I guess we should outlaw donuts because they cause people to become sex criminals.[/b]

What YOU are saying makes non sense because it is fallacious reasoning, but what I was obviously IMPLYING is that porn usually has some sort of contribution in a sex criminal's view of what is right and wrong in regards to sexual behavior.

Porn has been linked to ALL kinds of violent and sexual criminal behavior by valid sociological and psychological studies. The following example is exerpted from an article following Ted Bundy's (a serial rapist, child molester, and murderer) execution.

\"My experience with pornography ... is once you become addicted to it, (and I look at this as a kind of addiction like other kinds of addiction), I would keep looking for more potent, more explicit, more graphic kinds of material. Like an addiction, you keep craving something that is harder, something which gives you a greater sense of excitement. Until you reach a point where the pornography only goes so far, you reach that jumping off point where you begin to wonder if maybe actually doing it would give you that which is beyond just reading or looking at it.\"

Within a few years, those latent desires fueled by pornography were expressed through his first murder. Although Bundy said he did not blame pornography, he explained that pornographic materials shaped and molded his behavior. He also warned the nation that \"the most damaging kinds of pornography ... are those that involve violence and sexual violence. Because the wedding of those two forces, as I know only too well, brings out the hatred that is just, just too terrible to describe.\" [/b]


Here's the rest: http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0332..._Ted_Bundy.html (http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0332_Ted_Bundy.html)

[Alric]

Ok donuts is bad but only because I was trying to show why it doesn't make sense. Something closer would saying something like, most criminals own a gun so guns should be outlawed since they cause crime. Its just as true as with the donuts but people still argue that and same goes for porn.

[Death-Wuad]

There was a male gerbal at a pet shot somewhere in the united states, it broke out of it's cage and got into another cage filled with 23 female gerbals. It had sex with every gerbal in that cage in a single night (lucky bastard). So I guess that's grounds for argument that sex with dozens of different partners is natural.

How do you always know which is the cause, and which is the effect? You can take anything to an extreme and have it turn into a bad thing (Looking for extreme sports thrills, drinking, smoking, television)

Some people are under the assumption that listening to violent music, watching violent television, and playing violent video games makes you a violent person. That's incrediblly ignorant considering that fact that they have the same stuff (it's even more popular I heard) in other countries, yet they don't have nearly as much youth-violence as we do (I'm reffering to the United states when I say we). But I'm not saying that it can't lead to violence, I'm just saying it's highly unlikely.

EDIT: Whoops, I posted this a little late, I wasn't referring to Ted Bundy (If you read my post before I edited it)

[Alric]

Originally posted by Death-Wuad

Evangel, how do you know porn caused him to be a sex criminal? Rather than being a sexual deviant causing him to watch porn?


Yea that was pretty much my point.

[evangel]

I never made such a claim...

This is what I said:

porn usually has some sort of contribution in a sex criminal's view of what is right and wrong in regards to sexual behavior. [/b]

If you don't think that argument is strong enough in pointing out the insidious nature of porn, there are several studies that support the claim that no good comes from porn... Bundy's (and other sex and porn fiends') own testimonies are, to me, much more powerful than any scientific evidence or proof that as you asserted that may support the argument that "porn causes sex crimes.."

If you read the entire interview with Bundy, he testifies explicitly that his perversion began "innocently" by reading and viewing soft core porn, which eventually progressed to more twisted porn... leading to addiction and then perverted and criminal behavior. Pretty convincing testimony if you ask me.

I am a victim of porn also... I used to view it a lot, which led to me even going to a few strip clubs. The visual impact of pornography is so powerfully engraved, that I probably will not be able to enjoy sex in its rightful context (with the woman I will marry and love):
that is with intimacy, exclusivity, and emotional connection. I will still experience these things, but not without the memories of the images that I have poisoned my mind with - and not with the intensity and purity that I would like, now having learned my lesson.

[Death-Wuad]

If you read the entire interview with Bundy, he testifies explicitly that his perversion began \"innocently\" by reading and viewing soft core porn, which eventually progressed to more twisted porn... leading to addiction and then perverted and criminal behavior. Pretty convincing testimony if you ask me.[/b]

Well how do you know he wasn't going to turn into a sexual deviant without porn? He could just have naturally been a very sex craving loon. But even if it does manage to turn people into complete psychpaths, that doesn't mean the rest of the community needs to have their porn-privileges lost. It's like achohol, some people turn it into their only agenda, but that doesn't necessarily mean that alcohol is evil.

And maybe he turned out like that because he was exposed to it at such a young age? A child suddenly being immersed into anything they aren't familiar with is going to exhibit different reactions than somebody who learns about this stuff more maturely and much slower.

EDIT: There is a reason for the viewing of pornography being illegal until you are old enough to handle it.

[evangel]

Still... I've heard of no good tat comes of it. Therefore, arguments FOR porn hold no weight in my book. I never said, nor am I implying that porn causes psychosis or directly causes crime. I'm saying only that it is often linked (and obviously changes one's view of what sex is, how it should be "peformed" etc.), and that in my own experience, it is mental and spiritual POISON.

[Seeker]

Great topic guys! Interesting and intelligent discussion going on :goodjob:

[Lowercase Society]

Originally posted by evangel
If morality is subjective, there is no authoritative standard. But someone must be the one to make the final judgment on where the line is crossed from moral to immoral in regards to porn. How would you choose this person or authority. There's a double standard there, I think.

:goodjob2: Exactly.

[wendysleeps]

~i agree w/ evangel & lowercase on many things they've said...it's hard to dictate/try to control morality in a society so i don't really know if trying to "outlaw" pornography is such a good plan...i mean, people should be given the chioce to do the right thing or do the wrong thing...someone said something earlier about how if porn was suddenly removed from the world that there would be a huge wave of rapes throughout the world...i disagree & here's why: rape is less about sex and more about control and hate etc (correct me if i'm wrong)...i'd have to say that there was probably less porn 60years ago(taking an educated leap of a guess;p)and i'd venture to say that there were also less sexual crimes...it seems to me that there may be a connection between the 2(pornography and sex crimes)...i'm not saying that porn is the only thing to blame but i feel it plays a part....
~you all have a great day;p

[OpheliaBlue]

no exploitations!!!

[CT]

Originally posted by evangel
If morality is subjective, there is no authoritative standard. But someone must be the one to make the final judgment on where the line is crossed from moral to immoral in regards to porn. How would you choose this person or authority. There's a double standard there, I think.

NO!!! Nobody should make the final judgement!!! Who is worthy, to command what other people can and cant do, if they're not causing harm? Do as you please, but your freedom ends, where the freedom of another starts. If it causes no harm, even though in your opinion it is disgusting, you should impose that opinion on other people, you have no right to make that descision for other people. Proving that porn causes harm however, is a whole other discussion. But, as you said so any argument FOR porn holds no value in your opinion, and your general dislike towards porn will make impossible to justify it for you, and most other people.
Before the people who have different opinions that me are going to quote me line by line i\'d like to say that i\'m not that good with words, I usually have difficulty accurately portraying my opinions on several matters, which is why I hardly post in this section. Add the fact that english is not my 1st language. So instead of picking my post apart, taking it litterally and magnifying the possibly contradictions try to see the message i\'m trying to get across... I\'m not good at it, I know.... but I hate when in order to \'win\' the argument people are gonna take it apart and out of context and ramble about a moot point... which i\'ve seen alot in this forum. I cant hold my own in such debates, so dont get me in one please...

[OpheliaBlue]

:lol: "teensy-text"!!

Anyway, CT's got a point. Let's all make sure we debate issues and not semantics. Unless you're just messing around to be messing around. Then I say knock yourselves out, woohooo!

[Howie]

I actually came up with my own phrase with concern over not just pornography but sin in general.
temtation lies wait for everyone, left enchecked could be their demise.

[Neil]

Originally posted by evangel+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(evangel)</div>Sex is not meaningless...it is the only physical act that involves NOT only the body, but the SOUL too...

Porn is twisted and destructive. Nearly all sex criminals have been connected to a porn-based lifestyle or at least a connection to porn. That should say something...[/b]

Nearly all criminals have been connected to drinking water too. That doesn't make water inherently twisted. There is no causal connection between porn viewing and crime. Porn viewing is normal.

My father watches porn and he's an electrical engineer. My brother watches porn and he is a police officer. (I've seen the internet logs) My mother is a primary school teacher and she watches football because she likes the men, especially when they take their shirts off.

I agree that watching too much porn is bad, just as any form of too much self-gratification is bad. If I eat a cake once a week I am normal. If I eat 1000 cakes I am greedy. But cakes themself, like porn, are harmless in moderation.

Originally posted by evangel@
The porn industry (including those who consume porn) seem hell-bent on proving that sex is not sacred.

Correction: People don't like getting judged, especially by people who don't understand that duality is a nice abstraction that helps us interperet reality and is nothing more.


<!--QuoteBegin-evangel
Many make the claim that we are simply animals or without souls/spirits or \"eternal consequence.\" If we're animals, then why don't we behave like them without any moral convictions?

Because we have opposible thumbs.

The concept of morality was created by humans so that they would stop killing each other, as a fairly natural instinct not to get killed. Morals were created because it is easier to blame the world's problems on bad people than to accept responsibility for our own decisions. It is easier to wage wars when you believe your enemy is evil. But it is also wrong.

Co-operation allows us to lead our own lives without stepping on each other's toes. Hence, we mammals tend to help each other out when it suits us by forming societies. Just as the gorilla who kills the journalist for stealing its baby, humans send criminals to jail. Tit for tat. Morality. Its old and its not sacred, just useful in certain circumstances.

Originally posted by evangel+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(evangel)</div> If you at least say that porn is not immoral, it is the same as saying porn IS moral (good). Yet with all the negative fruit, how can anyone say that porn is good for anyone?[/b]

Are you a computer? Why do you assume that everything has to be GOOD or EVIL ?

<!--QuoteBegin-evangel
It seems some (CT, Neil, Lome, and maybe some others) are making the argument that morality is subjective or \"each is to his own\" as far as moral judgments go. If that is true, then we have no grounds for judging the pedophile, necrophile, or any other perverted wanker ('scuse my English) out there.

We should not judge others. Everything a person does in his or her life is completely consitent with that person's personal morals and ethics (both being codes that the individual has developed her/himself or has been programmed with from various sources).

The reason developed countries lock up murderers is not (or at least should not) be to PUNISH THEM FOR THEIR SINS because they are BAD BOOGY MEN. The reason is because murderers get in the way of other people who are trying to live their lives. This is about pluralism.

\"Each to their own\" - Exactly! People should be free to do whatever they wish so long as it doesn't harm anybody else. This, in my opinion, SACRED principle (yes I do know of the word), is the most important code of conduct for anyone to live by. As the Bible says, we should do unto others as we would have them do unto us. This is right not because it is the word of the Bible, but because it is the most sensible. Thats as simple as it gets. It abhors me that people don't respect this.

Originally posted by evangel
If morality is subjective, there is no authoritative standard. *But someone must be the one to make the final judgment on where the line is crossed from moral to immoral in regards to porn. How would you choose this person or authority. There's a double standard there, I think. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You are wrong, because this isn't about morality, it is about respecting other people's right to do whatever they want balanced with people's right not to be harmed. Both principles are essential, and not based on morality but rather pragmatism and common-sense. :?

You would have to be pretty silly to NOT realise the difference between consentual activity of adults as an act of free will and non-consentual ABUSE of children. :!: :cry:

[Awaken]

Originally posted by Neil
Hang on, I think you are confused. Child pornography is not normal pornography. Any children involved are obviously being abused. Adults who choose to get their breasts out in a magazine for lots of money are not being abused.

I get aggrivated when people confuse issues like this.

Are you saying maturity is derived from some moralistic ideal? Maturity comes from experience. Experience comes from curiosity. It's not like the second someone turns 18 they suddenly spring into a mature, rational-thinking person...There are 8yo's who are more mature than those in their 20's!
Come on now, Brooke Burns used to be a CP star! Ever heard of Pretty Baby? Was she abused?

[Awaken]

Oh yeah - porn kicks ass :-P No one will ever get rid of it as long as there's a voice like this one. And who the hell equates it with rape? We could ban everything to stop any kind of bad influence and then we'd all look pretty stupid.

[IZ]

This is how porn changed the world:

People lost the respect for women. When a man sees a great looking women down the street. Does a man imagen her with him together loving each other OR does he see in is mind himself imitating a sexaul position with her that he saw on a porn movie? Do good looking women with intellegents even get noticed by their mind or by their body.

People when they are watching porn, they reach a point of tollerance. Once this point is reached, what else will excite them? The actual performance? Which may lead to rape or even worse, a close relashion to ones self.

And these days, there have been very early age pregnancies. What would make two very young kids have sex? How would they now how to do it? Did watching porn at an early age educate them? (And dont tell me that its a human instinct to know how to have sex and crap)

How about you, do you care even if your own sister or even daughter is raped or gets sexualy active and maybe pregnent early. Would you say: "Oh its just nature taking its way" BULL!!! We are a civilized species. Dont tell me that its normal to violate someones body or even virginity just for the pleasure of it.

And why do you compare other products and items with sex? Who are you trying to confuse? All you care about is making your point heard, but will you listen to what the opposite has to say? Or will you try to twist his words into your own views?

And be honest, How many of you, even right now have another window open on a porn site as you read these very words?

Nuff Said.

[ffx-dreamz]

Dont tell me that its normal to violate someones body or even virginity just for the pleasure of it. [/b]
That has nothing to do with the original subject.You have no proof that porn makes a person go out and rape someone... I'm not gonna make a huge drawn out post over this, Im just gonna state a fact, we got out opinion, and you have yours, nothing you say is gonna change my view on it, and I think it would be better to just drop it.NOTHING is gonna come out of this debate besides....debate :P.And, just for the hell of it, I opened a porn window!What now, did I just hurt someone?I don't think so..its a harmless practice, get the hell over it..

*prepares to get brutally attacked.*

[IZ]

Aha! thats one tally on yes. :lol:

And I know its a debate. I have my views and you have yours, we chose to live the way we want. Listen or not, I tried to sound the warning trumpet.

[imported_Berserk_Exodus]

Pornography is simply another form of consumer junk food in our Hedonistic culture.

Sex is now pre-packed, plastic, and tastier than ever!

Why would I want to look a piece of paper and pass out on my toilet if I could be out there actually with a woman. And no one better say "Women look at it too, dur-dur." It's almost an entirely male creation.

We are a male domination society, we've been since the dawn of our species. Think of the comparisons between the two.

1.Man - Woman
2.Male - Female

Both contain the element "man", but in the first example it just plainly seems to be a blow to the femme itself, "Woe-man". Never got that until recently.

Now, No. 2, both still contain the element "male", but -fe appears to be a subtraction of male as if the X was a lesser version of Y. In fact we know from genetics this is simply not the case.

Back to the point, only complete idiots look at porn and I would like to give them a swift kick in the balls. Sure, you could say it's the natural human sex drive, BUT MASTURBATION DOES NOT = SEX. Read from top all the way down, repeat as necessary.

BTW, I voted for it until I realized that I was thinking like a complete f(cking idiot and kicked myself in the balls.

[IZ]

I just hope this thread doesn't create a division in the forum between the morals and imorals. I mean the poll is 50 - 50.

Anyways, I had enough, I'm off to bed. tomorrow is another day. Work is always waiting.

Anyways, yall have a friendly goodnight.

[imported_Berserk_Exodus]

I don't take it from a moral standpoint, I take it from a logical one.

[ffx-dreamz]

Originally posted by IZ
I just hope this thread doesn't create a division in the forum between the morals and imorals. I mean the poll is 50 - 50.

Anyways, I had enough, I'm off to bed. tomorrow is another day. Work is always waiting.

Anyways, yall have a friendly goodnight.

Not now, I had forgotten to vote.

later :P

[Lomebririon]

You guys make some interesting arguements. Not convincing, but interesting.

Originally posted by evangel
If you read the entire interview with Bundy, he testifies explicitly that his perversion began \"innocently\" by reading and viewing soft core porn, which eventually progressed to more twisted porn... leading to addiction and then perverted and criminal behavior. Pretty convincing testimony if you ask me.
Well, that is one way to look at it. However, once again we are talking about the principle of excess. Anything used in excess is potentially harmful.

A cause-and-effect relationship is drawn between men viewing pornography and men attacking women, especially in the form of rape. But studies and experts disagree as to whether any relationship exists between pornography and violence, between images and behavior. Even a report called the pro-censorship Meese Commission Report admitted that the data connecting pornography to violence was unreliable.

Other studies like the one done by feminist Thelma McCormick in 1983 for the Metropolitan Toronto Task Force on Violence Against Women, find no pattern to connect porn and sex crimes.

You know what happend then? The Task Force suppressed the study and reassigned the project to a supporter of censorship, who returned the "correct" results. Their study was published the one published.

"These findings are all well and good in theory, but what about real life?" you say? In Japan, where pornography depicting graphic and brutal violence is widely available, rape is much lower per capita than in the United States, where violence in porn is severely restricted. Explain that.

Pornography is free speech applied to the sexual realm. Freedom of speech is the ally of those who seek change: it is the enemy of those who seek to maintain control. Pornography, along with all other forms of sexual heresy, such as homosexuality, should have the same legal protection as political heresy. Viewing pornography may well have a calming effect on men who have violent urges toward women. If this is true, restricting pornography removes a protective barrier between women and abuse.

Pornography gives a panoramic view of the world's sexual possibilities. This is true even of basic sexual information such as masturbation. It is not uncommon for women to reach adulthood without knowing how to give themselves pleasure. It allows women to "safely" experience sexual alternatives and satisfy a healthy sexual curiosity. The world is a dangerous place. By contrast, pornography can be a source of solitary enlightenment. It also offers the emotional information that comes only from experiencing something either directly or vicariously. It provides us with a sense how it would "feel" to do something. Pornography allows people to enjoy scenes and situations that would be anathema to them in real life. Take, for example, one of the most common fantasies reported by women - the fantasy of "being taken." The first thing to understand is that a rape fantasy does not represent a desire for the real thing. Why would a healthy woman daydream about being raped? Perhaps by losing control, she also sheds all sense of responsibility for and guilt over sex. Perhaps it is the exact opposite of the polite, gentle sex she has now. Perhaps it is flattering to imagine a particular man being so overwhelmed by her that he must have her. Perhaps she is curious. Perhaps she has some masochistic feelings that are vented through the fantasy. Is it better to bottle them up?

Pornography breaks cultural and political stereotypes, so that each woman can interpret sex for herself. Some people such as Anti-feminists and puritans tell people to be ashamed of their appetites and urges. Pornography tells them to accept and enjoy them. Pornography can be good therapy. Pornography provides a sexual outlet for those who - for whatever reason - have no sexual partner. Perhaps they are away from home, recently widowed, isolated because of infirmity. Perhaps they simply choose to be alone. Couples also use pornography to enhance their relationship. Sometimes they do so on their own, watching videos and exploring their reactions together. Sometimes, the couples go to a sex therapist who advises them to use pornography as a way of opening up communication on sex. By sharing pornography, the couples are able to experience variety in their sex lives without having to commit adultery.

I believe that there is a copius amount of bias in some of your arguements. Some of you are letting your religious or social backgrounds prevent you from seeing both sides of the arguement - and without seeing both sides, you argue your point blindly and closed-minded, without listening to the other side making this debate essentially useless. This debate is old whine in new battles. The issue at stake in the morality of pornography debate is nothing less than the age-old conflict between individual freedom and social control.

[CT]

And these days, there have been very early age pregnancies. What would make two very young kids have sex? How would they now how to do it? Did watching porn at an early age educate them? (And dont tell me that its a human instinct to know how to have sex and crap) [/b]

Thats just bullcrap. Girls used to get married and get kids at the age of 13. Woman have emancipated, you know? I'd say woman who work in porn are more emancipated then most women.
By the way, since we live in the age of mass-media now, and a more efficient police (usually), we know of ALOT more violent crimes. But, such crime has decreased over the years, just because it is reported and discussed more, people think it happens more. It is a bigger risk to let your kid play in a playground by itself in the 70's, then it is now. People are just more paranoid now.


The issue at stake in the morality of pornography debate is nothing less than the age-old conflict between individual freedom and social control.[/b]

:thumbup:

[Neil]

Originally posted by Awaken
Are you saying maturity is derived from some moralistic ideal? Maturity comes from experience. Experience comes from curiosity. It's not like the second someone turns 18 they suddenly spring into a mature, rational-thinking person...There are 8yo's who are more mature than those in their 20's!

*sigh* generally an 18 year old is able to make more rational decisions about whether they should or should not be in a porno than a 4 year old. Until they reach that age we make the choice for them that they should NOT be in a porno.

CT, I fully agree with you.

[Awaken]

Originally posted by IZ+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IZ)</div>This is how porn changed the world:

People lost the respect for women. When a man sees a great looking women down the street. Does a man imagen her with him together loving each other OR does he see in is mind himself imitating a sexaul position with her that he saw on a porn movie? Do good looking women with intellegents even get noticed by their mind or by their body.
[/b]

The former.

Originally posted by IZ@

And these days, there have been very early age pregnancies. What would make two very young kids have sex? How would they now how to do it? Did watching porn at an early age educate them? (And dont tell me that its a human instinct to know how to have sex and crap)


Responsible decisions come from practical information. Kids aren't incapable of learning responsible decisions, people just don't give them enough info about sex - it's too 'touchy'. I read a report how teen pregnancies dropped somewhere after the kids learned about oral sex...

<!--QuoteBegin-IZ

And be honest, How many of you, even right now have another window open on a porn site as you read these very words?


Nope. Can't get a boner and type about getting a boner at the same time.

[Awaken]

Originally posted by Neil

*sigh* generally an 18 year old is able to make more rational decisions about whether they should or should not be in a porno than a 4 year old. Until they reach that age we make the choice for them that they should NOT be in a porno.

CT, I fully agree with you.

If a kid wants to prance around (and yes, some do) in front of a camera nekkie, who should tell them they can't? Luring is bad, but kids say (and do) the darndest things. They're smarter these days... I'm definitely not talking about any sexual contact or adults in the picture...In fact what I'm talking about really doesn't even qualify as porn :-P

Morals have their place these days, but they gotta change, people are miserable because of em.

[Lomebririon]

Originally posted by Awaken+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Awaken)</div>
<!--QuoteBegin-IZ

And be honest, How many of you, even right now have another window open on a porn site as you read these very words?


Nope. Can't get a boner and type about getting a boner at the same time.[/b]

:chuckle:

[Lowercase Society]

Me and a good friend were talking about this yesterday...

In life i like to keep a balance, i use a saying:

EVERYTHING IN MODERATION.

That means everything from reading the bible, down to watching pornography...i'm not saying that i have never seen it, BUT i don't want to watch it too much, and get hooked onto it. Once every now and then to get the blood pumping is ok...but if your addicted to it (and if you are you will probably deny it!)...it is not 'healthy behaviour'.

In life there needs to be boundary lines...every person should set their own boudary lines to an extent, but it is obvious if a person is crossing boundary lines that should not be crossed. Everything in moderation, that means porno too...

I am trying to live life like this...and it is a good approach, i presume.

Cheers!

[OpheliaBlue]

Originally posted by Lowercase Society
EVERYTHING IN MODERATION.
Well said man.

I have to admit, I voted "no", but ut probably has a bit to do with having a kid. It's odd, the hypocrisy of parents. While I've (moderately ;) ) indulged in a few sins from time to time, I vote against porn because I imagine how it will affect my son more than myself or anyone else.

[simisu]

i didn't think i had anything alse to say but i have to coment on this!


Originally posted by Awaken+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Awaken)</div><!--QuoteBegin-Neil
Hang on, I think you are confused. Child pornography is not normal pornography. Any children involved are obviously being abused. Adults who choose to get their breasts out in a magazine for lots of money are not being abused.

I get aggrivated when people confuse issues like this.

Are you saying maturity is derived from some moralistic ideal? Maturity comes from experience. Experience comes from curiosity. It's not like the second someone turns 18 they suddenly spring into a mature, rational-thinking person...There are 8yo's who are more mature than those in their 20's!
[/b]


what you might or might not consider as porn i dont know... BUT kiddie porn (when made as such!) is abusive to the child (not neccerely phisycal!)!
no matter if he actualy has intercours or not... NO child should WANT to be watched as a sexual being (maybe some 12-17 year old's might appriciate the attention BUT you must agree that the law is there for a REASON becouse it's much easier to take advantage of kids then an 18 year old... and yeah some 18's dont really know what their doing but much less then the kids that would REALLY WANT to be looked at in a sexual way! and maybe even some of those would look back and be ashamed of what they did when they were small...)

almost always there are exceptions to laws... but the law is there for a reason (and usualy it's a good one!) i'd hate to think what would happen to this world if kids were ALWAYS treated as adults (in the law!)

anyway... please dont try and justefy kiddie porn! (and i mean porn when made as such...) becouse most kids are not so aware (and i bet you wouldn't let your kid make a porn movie even if he said it's ok with him and your sure he knows what he's doing!)

this reminds me of that person who chose to be eaten by this cannibal... you'd have to prove this person is sane befor you'd let him do it right?
BUT if suddenly lots of people started eating other people would you make a law saying that people who want to get eaten by other people (that is comit suicide for another person) should first be checked for sanety or would you simply forbid it? (personally i think that people should be free to make such decisions for them selves as long as they're proved to be capeble of making such a decision... but such things are TOO hard to prove (be it a child that wants to do porn or a man that want's to get eaten by another man) and so its simpler to just outlaw them... and i dont see how some one can justefy kidde porn (or beign eaten/eat) as a whole... MAYBE as case per case but... not as a whole

and PLEASE lets not get into the athics of suicide or moralety of kiddie porn... that's NOT the point... and i couldn't have said it batter then Lomebririon....

believe that there is a copius amount of bias in some of your arguements. Some of you are letting your religious or social backgrounds prevent you from seeing both sides of the arguement - and without seeing both sides, you argue your point blindly and closed-minded, without listening to the other side making this debate essentially useless. This debate is old whine in new battles. The issue at stake in the morality of pornography debate is nothing less than the age-old conflict between individual freedom and social control.[/b]

it's a matter of taste... and debating it is pretty useless when you dont undersand another's POV!

[Alric]

I think people just like blaiming stuff. I have looked at porn, has it hurt me? No, infact I believe in waiting untill your married before having sex. I play video games where peoples heads get blown off and stuff, does it make me crazy? No, I wouldn't even hurt an animal. I don't steal, I have never tried any drug. I don't smoke, I don't even drink though I am now old enough to do so legally.

Its like the person who cuts off someones arm because they saw it on tv. Is it TV's fault? No, its because the person is a total moron. Did bundy do that stuff because of porn? No he did it because he is crazy. If he never saw porn he would of killed someone another way. Maybe he gets in an arguement then goes and kill them.

The absolute worse thing porn does, is it gives you the idea that having sex might be fun. If that idea never came to mind before seeing it though, well you have other problems.

[Lowercase Society]

If we are talking about sex, we might as well talk about killing (as entertainment, of course)

Different people get effected by different forms of 'entertainment'. I can say that i love a good war flick or medieval flick. But i must say that too much of them gives me a sadistic pleasure in death...it needs to be kept in moderation...let's just say TRUE STORIES...history is great, if you don't know your past, you don't know who you truely are...anyway...it is sick the way that 'entertainment' has taken a turn for today. *twItCH*

>Nobody can deny the fact that what we indulge in can become part of our behaviour, or how we react in a situation. We become socially dependent on our entertainment...we depend too much on it i think.
If we watch too much porn, our behaviour gets effected by the indulgement in that form of entertainment, and the same with war movies, and even religious ones...keep everything in moderation.
(soft disclaimer: i know i am a broken record about the 'everything in moderation', but it is important)

[evangel]

Again, no one said there is any direct correlation or effect. The reason I brought up Bundy and HIS OWN TESTIMONY is that it supports the argument that porn, especially violent extreme porn is AT LEAST not good.

Lome, your arguments are great from a critical thinking/neutral standpoint... I never claimed not to have a bias. In fact, I hope my bias IS evident. In regards to porn, I would not even consider it "in moderation" since, to me, it is like saying as long as you pump your veins with poison in moderation, you'll be okay.

I think we all agree that censorship is NECESSARY. Otherwise you would have people posting pedophilia, etc. online etc. etc.

The double standard that those who claim to be against censorship and "for freedom of expression" maintain (I still think) is ridiculous. They often claim subjective morality in regards to stuff like porn, yet turn around and say there should be lines drawn (which is objectivism, hence the double-standard). WHO gets to draw the line? Government. Why? Because it must be drawn somewhere because some people's idea of beauty and "art" maybe someone else's idea of obscenity.

[Alric]

If there is no direct effect then it doesn't mean anything.

[Awaken]

Thanks simisu, that was really well-laid out. I agree that the law is there to protect those that may be in real danger. I WANT people who abuse children in jail...But the point is that it's a really complicated issue and many decent people DO go to jail because of some stupid technicality :( It's that they need to fix it, much like drug laws.

And uh, believe it or not some kids do like to be looked at sexually. I didn't make the rule, nature did :|

[Neil]

Originally posted by evangel
The double standard that those who claim to be against censorship and \"for freedom of expression\" maintain (I still think) is ridiculous. They often claim subjective morality in regards to stuff like porn, yet turn around and say there should be lines drawn (which is objectivism, hence the double-standard). WHO gets to draw the line? Government. Why? Because it must be drawn somewhere because some people's idea of beauty and \"art\" maybe someone else's idea of obscenity.

But those in favour of freedom of expression agree in subjective morality, while accepting that there is more than one person in their soceity, who has a different subjective morality to their own, so concessions are made so that we can express ourselves up until the point that it harms someone else in some way. This is not morality. It is pluralism, pragmatism and democracy.

[Lomebririon]

Originally posted by evangel+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(evangel)</div>Again, no one said there is any direct correlation or effect. The reason I brought up Bundy and HIS OWN TESTIMONY is that it supports the argument that porn, especially violent extreme porn is AT LEAST not good.
[/b]
Since a convicted felon said to you that porno made him do it, it's suddenly universally true? Do you have any other testimonies from criminals to support this theory as well? Or is it just that one? If that is the only one, it cannot really be considered a valid proof.

<!--QuoteBegin-evangel
In regards to porn, I would not even consider it \"in moderation\" since, to me, it is like saying as long as you pump your veins with poison in moderation, you'll be okay.
That's a rather extreme example isn't it? Even for this subject. It's like you're subtly saying since we've watched it we're going to some place really hot for all eternity. If that's the case, see you there. :)

[Lowercase Society]

Originally posted by Lomebririon+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lomebririon)</div>
<!--QuoteBegin-evangel
In regards to porn, I would not even consider it \"in moderation\" since, to me, it is like saying as long as you pump your veins with poison in moderation, you'll be okay.
That's a rather extreme example isn't it? Even for this subject. It's like you're subtly saying since we've watched it we're going to some place really hot for all eternity. If that's the case, see you there. :)[/b]


Yeah...but porn, in his thoughts is infectuous...and therefore deadly to the mind and behaviour...and i think i mostly agree.

[loose id]

I think pornography is good, which is why I think its bad.

Think about it in a psychological sense. You have men and women who are recieving a mindfull of oxytocin every time they masturbate to some picture they see on the net. Now, in the operant condition mode, they become reliant not only on the stimulus of nekked women pictures, but of the modality in which they are given this stimulus. How many of y'all are kinda stuck with your fingers on the keyboard even when you aren't checkin' out all black background pictures? We don't build real relationships with people, we got a bunch of these binary ones.

Sweet ass, huh?

Now, for something completely different:
:muffin:

[Aphius]

Originally posted by loose id
Think about it in a psychological sense. You have men and women who are recieving a mindfull of oxytocin every time they masturbate to some picture they see on the net.Oxytocin is only at the levels you've outlined (a mind-full) with the use of Chronic Masturbation.

Meaning that only addicts would become dependant on such stimulus, which of course is why they are addicts. But like others have argued EVERYTHING IN MODERATION.

How many of y'all are kinda stuck with your fingers on the keyboard even when you aren't checkin' out all black background pictures? We don't build real relationships with people, we got a bunch of these binary ones. [/b]What the heck are you talkin' about? :|

[evangel]

Originally posted by Lomebririon

Since a convicted felon said to you that porno made him do it, it's suddenly universally true? Do you have any other testimonies from criminals to support this theory as well? Or is it just that one? If that is the only one, it cannot really be considered a valid proof.
...
That's a rather extreme example isn't it? Even for this subject. It's like you're subtly saying since we've watched it we're going to some place really hot for all eternity. If that's the case, see you there. :)

Who said anything about universal truth? I was just giving my perspective, which according to a subjectivist is completely cool since everyones' opinions are valid, no? Testimony is not the same thing as proof.

If you want to read personal judgment into my posts, I'll clarify a bit to say that yes I do have "extreme" views about porn because of my own experiences with it and the addiction factor (marriages are devastated and people enslave themselves to porn and to extreme lifestyles surrounding porn because they are unable to practice self-control - it's a dark, insidious, and common thing...). And no, Bundy's is not the only testimony. He just happens to be one high profile and his interview transcripts are readily available on the net.

[Alric]

Anything can be addictive. I would say food is more addictive than porn. There are very few people who go out and rape people and stuff but over half the people in the US are fat. I never seen anyone say "don't eat because its harmful" though. Ok maybe a better example is "Don't eat sweats". Its pretty excepted that you can eat it every once in awhile just don't stuff your face with it. Well same goes for porn.

[evangel]

Because my view on the value of porn is different than yours, I would not compare it with food. I might, however, compare it with something like say... crap (albeit addictive crap).

those in favour of freedom of expression agree in subjective morality, while accepting that there is more than one person in their soceity, who has a different subjective morality to their own, so concessions are made so that we can express ourselves up until the point that it harms someone else in some way. [/b]

I'm all for freedom of expression... But even you agree with me that lines need to be drawn. Problem is, we may disagree on where those lines should be drawn... What I view as harmful may be very different from what you would view as harmful.

[IZ]

So much Beauty and yet so much filth that blinds it.

So many followers but not enough leaders and dreamers.

[Awaken]

Originally posted by IZ
So much Beauty and yet so much filth that blinds it.

So many followers but not enough leaders and dreamers.

We need not followers and we need not leaders. We need philosophy. The stories of the cosmos are what hold us together as we were meant to be.

[Neil]

Originally posted by evangel
I'm all for freedom of expression... But even you agree with me that lines need to be drawn. Problem is, we may disagree on where those lines should be drawn... What I view as harmful may be very different from what you would view as harmful.

I agree. That's where we have to make compromises and concessions and agree to disagree.

I just hate censorship because I hate it when people don't respect my chocies, especially when those choices only affect my intimate personal sphere and nobody else's.

[Awaken]

Originally posted by Neil

I just hate censorship because I hate it when people don't respect my chocies, especially when those choices only affect my intimate personal sphere and nobody else's.

I feel ya...The 'outsiders' always seem to think they know what's best for everyone. If I were to die at 25 (5 years) in the state I'm in now, I would be eternally happier than if I were to die at 70 living the 'proper' life...

Parents are always riding me about smoking pot..."But the health effects! Oh and the horrible mental effects!" They think they're God's incarnation of the perfect human beings and that I'm just some stupid clouded antisocial pothead. Wow, how little they actually know about me. My mom actually considered that she knows me better than I do... 'nuf said...

[Alric]

If you where my kid I would yell at you for doing drugs too heh. Any one else however, they can smoke as much as they want, I don't care. They just better not drive while they are high, if they do that, well then I hope they go to jail because they could kill someone.

[evangel]

Originally posted by Awaken

Parents are always riding me about smoking pot...\"But the health effects! Oh and the horrible mental effects!\" They think they're God's incarnation of the perfect human beings ... 'nuf said...


Nah. They just love you and don't want to see you end up a pot-head. I was one of them for a short while. For what it's worth, I learned that among the many who would shoot you, rip you off, or "friends" with weed who say they're friends "indeed" but really just would not give a rat's ... about you when it came down to it, pot just ain't worth the hassle ...or all the lung cookies. :cookiemonster:

[Awaken]

Originally posted by evangel

Nah. They just love you and don't want to see you end up a pot-head. I was one of them for a short while. For what it's worth, I learned that among the many who would shoot you, rip you off, or \"friends\" with weed who say they're friends \"indeed\" but really just would not give a rat's ... about you when it came down to it, pot just ain't worth the hassle ...or all the lung cookies. :cookiemonster:

Yeah, their intentions are good and all, but they are really disrespectful about it sometimes. They bring up judgmental things like 'You're gonna end up doing heroin!' or when I try to use someone else's advice or argument, they ask 'Well is the person a USER??' as if smoking pot = stupid people. They also consider my judgment 'clouded' because of it.

They just see it as a big black hole leading nowhere (and yeah, they've said that too...)

As for the hassle with people who don't actually care about you...Where I'm from, pot creates one heck of an awesome community. I've met many great people through it. Yeah a few aren't really friends and I don't associate with them, but the vast majority are great folks to know. To be honest, I feel more comfortable hanging around people who smoke it, or are at least open about it, than people who are against it.

Lung cookies? hehe :)
I'd still be happier if I smoked pot and died at 50 than if I didn't, and died at 80...It's just my path...Not to mention that I really don't trust much of the medical info. I can't help but think there's too much money to be made from anti-drug studies :|

[Awaken]

Originally posted by Alric
If you where my kid I would yell at you for doing drugs too heh. Any one else however, they can smoke as much as they want, I don't care. They just better not drive while they are high, if they do that, well then I hope they go to jail because they could kill someone.

I don't care if they are concerned, but they act as if they're the government just because I'm living at home. It creates a lot of tension at times.

As for driving, I've been doing it since I started weed 4 years ago, and haven't even had a small slip-up...I was even skeptical at first, but it's really nothing. Some people are better at it than others, and I find I can concentrate really well. It's been observed by friends as well as family...on many many occasions. I hotly contest that it slows reaction time, negatively affects motor coordination, or impacts speed perception - in myself anyway. All my friends smoke and drive and also have no problems. Medical pot patients also do it.

[Alric]

Well I am sure its like drinking, a little won't do much and some can also drive fine while drunk. I would still suggest not doing it, even if you think your good at driving while high. You can't judge your own reaction time, it might seem the same and not really be so. And if the people telling you, your doing good, if they are high they wont notice the difference either.

Some people drink and drive for years and never have a problem. The thing is, it only takes one accident to kill someone.

[Jin]

For it, or against it . . .? Hmmm . . . for it? . . . Or against it? :|

[Awaken]

Originally posted by Alric
Well I am sure its like drinking, a little won't do much and some can also drive fine while drunk. I would still suggest not doing it, even if you think your good at driving while high. You can't judge your own reaction time, it might seem the same and not really be so. And if the people telling you, your doing good, if they are high they wont notice the difference either.

Some people drink and drive for years and never have a problem. The thing is, it only takes one accident to kill someone.

I've done reaction time tests on the internet while high and while not high. No difference :)
And the other people with me are not always high. Sometimes but definitely not always.
I certainly would not advocate driving high. I was very skeptical myself the first few times I did it. It's not for everyone. But personally, I am very attentive and comfortable, yet aware, in that zone. My mind does less wandering and analyzing, and more linear concentration on the decidedly-subconscious act of driving.
There was some study here, lower mainland BC, saying that 1 in 3 drivers on the road are under the influence of MJ. If the number is even anywhere close to this, wow :)

Crap this is going waaay off on a tangent :-P

[Jin]

. . . for it or against it . . .? :|

[WerBurN]

porno is bad, masturbation/fantisizing is not....

so long as you arent addicted to masturbation (it happens), then its just natural, cause our bodies are meant to live a shorter lifespan than our society is making us live...we are meant to have sex, as far as our bodies are concerned, right after puberty...which is around high-school for our society...we also are meant to die around 30, but due to medical advances we dont...this elonging of our lifetimes, and soceity's pressure to not have sex when we are most meant to (physically) makes masturbation necessary...however, pornography is bad, inasmuch that, in the 50's, a woman could show a guy her ankle, and he would get a stiffy...nowadays, ive known both men and women that have grown disinterested in the human body...they've seen it enough times that it is no longer interesting to them...

[Jin]

. . . Masturbation or fantasizing . . .? Masturbation or fantasizing . . .?

. . . Hmmmmm . . . :|

[Awaken]

Originally posted by Jin
. . . Masturbation or fantasizing . . .? Masturbation or fantasizing . . .?

. . . Hmmmmm . . . :|

Are you indecisive by nature?

[Jin]

. . . Hmmmm . . . indecisive by nature . . . hmmmmm . . . indecisive . . . by nature . . .? :|

[Awaken]

Wow, didn't see THAT one coming... :)

[Jin]

. . . . . . :| . . . . . . :| . . . . . .

[simisu]

awaken... i've had same kinda problame with my parents!
talk to them about it!
explain.. reassure them that you're doing it for all the right reasons and not the wrong ones!
and try to teach them about it... tell them that all they THINK they know about it is bullshit (and stick facts in their face till they can't argue anymore) it'll help!
and evantually they might even want to try it (if i got MY dad to want to try... anyone can :o)

but make sure you know what you're talking about first!


and Jin...

For it, or against it . . .? Hmmm . . . for it? . . . Or against it? [/b]

we DON'T care !!!
please dont be wasting anyone's time if you're not going to SAY anything...
and if any of the ADMINS see this... why not deleat it please?

[Awaken]

Originally posted by simisu
awaken... i've had same kinda problame with my parents!
talk to them about it!
explain.. reassure them that you're doing it for all the right reasons and not the wrong ones!
and try to teach them about it... tell them that all they THINK they know about it is bullshit (and stick facts in their face till they can't argue anymore) it'll help!
and evantually they might even want to try it (if i got MY dad to want to try... anyone can :o)

but make sure you know what you're talking about first!


Yeah, to be honest I have made some progress in the last little while. When we started our occasional debates, it felt like Me vs. Dubya on the issue (legalization vs. complete outlaw/demonization). When I started getting my facts in order some more, I came up with some great points. There have been points that I've stuck out there that they can't say anything to because they know I'm right!

They now see that the drug policy is inefficient and whatnot, I've made that quite clear. They also know that drugs don't equal bad people, necessarily - though they seem to want to stress that my judgment isn't clear simply because of drugs.

The thing is that every time I try to push a little more, into the area of acceptance, it goes straight back to the health/mental effects. They're just so intent on listening to the media and government instead of me (they think authority is all-knowing and wants to help people find the 'right' path. AAGH) :-P

All they want is for me to be completely safe - but then I think, what's the point of forcing myself away from something I enjoy if it doesn't hurt anyone else? I could get hit by a truck on my way to work today (knock wood :) ) and then how happy would I have been to give up the drugs?

They just don't see happiness from a chemically-induced/freedom-of-choice perspective. They see it from the law-abiding, take-care-of-your-physical-self side. Two completely different ideologies I guess...Ah well, I'm just grateful that they aren't being completely irrational about it. I guess time will need to be their teacher, and maybe mine - I don't know if I'm gonna smoke pot all my life, I just want the ability to make my own personal decisions. That, to me, is what feeling alive is all about, and I wish they could see that, and be happy about it.

[Death-Wuad]

I would have to say I have a natural resentment towards drugs because of the following:

-My mom smoked (cigarettes) during her first 3 pregnancies. They were all girl and they were all miscarriages. It took me a long time to truely understand that I have 3 dead sisters, but when I did, it hit me hard.

-My cousin died a few years ago from, what I think, was heroine


But back to pornography; I agree with the choice to do what you want.

[evangel]

Originally posted by WerBurN
porno is bad, masturbation/fantisizing is not....
...however, pornography is bad, inasmuch that, in the 50's, a woman could show a guy her ankle, and he would get a stiffy...nowadays, ive known both men and women that have grown disinterested in the human body...they've seen it enough times that it is no longer interesting to them...

...Don't fantasizing and masturbation go hand in hand? I thought you couldn't have one without the other. Ergo, whether you're using your imagination or photographs in a magazine, the principle of lust/sexual fantasy is still the same...

As far as the analogy with the 50s goes, I totally agree. It's sad that it is difficult to be turned on by your own wife because every day you see girls/women in skin-tight tops while flaunting g-string underwear (or the lack thereof) and several inches of skin below the naval... Little is left to the imagination these days it seems - Not to mention what is essentially soft-core porn shown on mainstream TV...

[Seeker]

Evangel, my friend, I think you have summarized one of the main dangers of porn, Densitivation.

Sex can be like a drug, kinkier and kinkier acts required to stimulate your interest. When it comes to the point that someone must fantasize about porn acts or those porn goddesses in order to have relations with his wife, then there is a major problem.

[Alric]

It doesn't seem to have that effect on me. A lot of people look better wearing some what normal stuff than walking around half naked. Kind of depends on the person though

[evangel]

Believe me, if you looked at enough Hustler magazines, and then looked at a Playboy from the 1950s, you'll get very little or no response from looking at the Playboy. It's just the way the brain is wired. Happens to everybody. It's the same principle as eating every sweet dessert that you like each day after dinner for a month, then switching to sodium-free saltine crackers and water only instead. The crackers just will not compare.

I can't speak for women 'cause they're wired a little differently, but I'm assuming it's a similar experience.

[Alric]

Thats a little extreme. Its more like eating ice cream every day then moving to cake. Might not be AS good but its still good.

[evangel]

I like cake (and cookies) better than ice cream.

:cookiemonster:

That's why I used the extreme - to make a point, not a comparison. Anyway, you get what I mean. Desensitization is one definite result of porn in my book.

[Alric]

Yea but that could take years of looking at porn like 5 times a day. Realistically you could look at porn every day of your life and it will never lose its effect.

Its like dreaming. You really think you will get tired of dreaming? Even though you dream every night, multiple times a night. What about lucid dreaming? Some people been doing it for a long time, they still have fun doing the same old thing. Can't count how many people say they think flying is the greating thing even though they done it 50+ times.

[evangel]

There is something about dreaming, Lucid Dreaming in particular that is incomparable. When I am lucid, my state of mind is such that each experience is new. Being lucid is like being in a constant state of renewal that is indescribably dynamic.

I say that not to continue a bantering argument with you, but simply to say that LDing is a wonderful thing that is not comparible...

As much as my "primal sinful lustful nature" likes to look at beautiful naked women (which is true of most guys, I think) and pictures of them, I still believe that the best way to enjoy sex to its fullest extent is to engage in it in its rightful context (in marriage) without the hindrance of images or memories of images of other women clouding the brain or staining the intimacy that should rightfully and exclusively belong to that one woman that I love (and in my case, WILL love).

[Alric]

Then when your 30(not that old) and you get married, your wife could be the first nake woman you ever seen. A long time to wait, and then you have no idea what your doing, its all new to you.

[evangel]

:roll:
I'll put it this way... My future wife will not be dissappointed or unsatisfied regardless of my experience level. Just because someone isn't promiscuous doesn't make them a candidate for "unfulfilling" or "poor" sex. That's a myth generally used by those who are promiscuous in order to portray themselves in a positive light - as "sexually experienced" -as if that were a compliment. Many times it IS a compliment THESE days, but only because of the liberal and non-sacred view of sex we as a society have grown to embrace (in the U.S. - coastal states in particular) over the last few decades.

Besides that, this is some of what makes the marriage bed interesting... the prospect and challenge of making (and keeping) the experience of sexual intimacy exciting, sacred, and intimate all at the same time. If you have learned everything about sex (through experience) before getting married, there is less of the shared intimacy that comes from experiencing things together for the first time and more of that stuff which strengthens and builds the relationship, preparing them emotionally and maturing them.

[Alric]

I am not talking about being "sexually experienced". Talking about your wife gets undressed and your like "Umm whats that?".

[evangel]

Ummm... yeah. I think we're talking on a different wavelength. nevermind.

[Alric]

If you never seen a naked woman before even if it was just in a picture, you wouldn't know a thing would you?

[Alric]

Just to make it clear though, I am not for having sex with just anyone. I personlly believe in waiting untill your married before having sex. Not only to keep it special but if you sleep with a lot of people you have a high chance of getting STDs or Aids, and I don't think anyone wants to get that stuff.

I also don't think not having "experince" is a problem either. Everyone is different anyway and I am sure if you listen to the person your with its easy enough to find out what your doing.

[evangel]

Instead of double-posting you can edit your previous posts... (FYI)

Originally posted by Alric
If you never seen a naked woman before even if it was just in a picture, you wouldn't know a thing would you?

One would have to be seriously depraved for that to be possible...
Maybe like living in a cave with lttle or no social interaction...? Seriously, who has not seen such things or at least been told about such things these days?

Porn, albeit soft-core exists on daytime television, not to mention cable, advertising, "non-pornographic based" magazines and other media, and there are many publications (educational, cultural, etc.) that make the act of sex pretty well known even to virgins and young kids. I remember sex-ed classes pretty well from as early as 4th and 5th grade.
Still... good conversation.

[Alric]

Yea I know pretty much everyone seen something, which was kind of my point. Can't really say its evil and stuff when everyone has looked at it at some point. Like you said, you would have to live in a cave to avoid it all.

Which was everyone elses point. Seeing a little isn't going to kill you.

[Neil]

I accept the argument that porn leads to de-sensitisation but it could be counter-argued by the point that many men find a lady with class and who doesn't show her skin-off too much to be even more attractive.

I think females who dress "tarty" actually de-value themselves and make themselves less attractive. I'd far rather go for someone who had a little bit more self-respect and who didn't make available their boobies for everyone to see.
8)

[Awaken]

Originally posted by Death-Wuad
I would have to say I have a natural resentment towards drugs because of the following:

-My mom smoked (cigarettes) during her first 3 pregnancies. They were all girl and they were all miscarriages. It took me a long time to truely understand that I have 3 dead sisters, but when I did, it hit me hard.

-My cousin died a few years ago from, what I think, was heroine


But back to pornography; I agree with the choice to do what you want.

You're right, this should be in another thread...But it seems other people are ignoring it well enough :)



Your mom deliberately chose a self-destructive path, knowing full-well it would affect her offspring. She put her own happiness before the lives of her children, and I think that's sickening :(

As for your cousin, it's frightening to be in a place where no one can hear you - and I'm sure that's what (s)he was feeling. I could never bring myself to do heroin - not to mention blow, pcp, meth, crack, whatever. Excessive use is a state where the physical self no longer has a purpose. The numbness of the body is the only satisfying thing left in the world. I can't see why anyone wouldn't resent drugs for this reason...

Pot and mushrooms are good enough for me...They are mild on the physically-destructive side, unlike most other 'harder' drugs, and they're not physically addictive.

Responsible drug use is what I'm trying to get at.

My condolences though...I can't imagine the feelings you're going through about this issue. I am absolutely not in favour of drug abuse, whether it's coffee or morphine. Any drug use which directly affects others, or damages the self to a very noticeable extent is sad :( Any situation where the fix takes precedence over everything else is a sad situation indeed.

[IZ]

HOLY CRAP!! I'm just dont log in for a couple of days and this thread just grew!!! I dont have time to read all these responds.

But it seems that whatever I respond to, it will only get bashed by anothers point of view.

[Awaken]

Originally posted by IZ
HOLY CRAP!! I'm just dont log in for a couple of days and this thread just grew!!! I dont have time to read all these responds.

But it seems that whatever I respond to, it will only get bashed by anothers point of view.


Try me.

[CT]

Originally posted by IZ
But it seems that whatever I respond to, it will only get bashed by anothers point of view.

hey, whats goin on, you seem to be pissed about a couple of things on the boards here? Seen a couple of posts by you where you drop a subtle hint that you dont feel appreciated here.

[Awaken]

...and then won't talk about it if asked :|

We wanna help, IZ, please don't tell us something's wrong and then keep it to yourself. Makes you sound like nothing's really wrong and you just want attention :)

[Ev]

Pornography is just a way of satisfying human desire for sex.

As long as you know that the things you see on the screen are not

completely real, it is ok.


For that reason, why do I see dreams of sex? I dont really want to see

them, yet my mind constantly reminds me of it :/

[Lomebririon]

HOLY FUCKING SACRED MOTHER OF GOD! I didn't even thik this thread was still being used! I stopped visiting it ages ago. :shock:


Originally posted by Ev
Pornography is just a way of satisfying human desire for sex.

As long as you know that the things you see on the screen are not *

completely real, it is ok.


For that reason, why do I see dreams of sex? I dont really want to see *

them, yet my mind constantly reminds me of it :/

Oh yeah. Preach! Our minds constantly remind us of our genetics. There's not really anything religious about it.

[CT]

was listening to this song, thought they would fit here.

Originally posted by NOFX

\"Vanilla Sex\"

Don't ever take away from me my pornography
We obviously don't agree on what's obscene
I have the right to choose what I
Want to see and read

Don't try to take away from me
My right to privacy cause what I
Do is no one's business but me

So stay in your missionary position
I hope that you get bored to death
There's no way I'm going through life
Having vanilla sex

The government's trying to get into
Your bedroom you better lock your
Door and close your shades because
There could be someone watching you today

Why do you try to make things illegal
Why do we have to be 21
Are you afraid that people are having
Too much fun
Why do you care what I do in my bedroom
Why do you want to know how I screw
It seems to me you've got nothing better to do

[Awaken]

Originally posted by Lomebririon
HOLY FUCKING SACRED MOTHER OF GOD! I didn't even thik this thread was still being used! I stopped visiting it ages ago. *:shock: *


Amazing, the addiction of pornography, even talking about it draws months worth of attention to one thread ;)

[IZ]

Dont you understand? No one can help me. If you cant even help yourself, how do you think you will help me?

[Awaken]

Originally posted by IZ
Dont you understand? No one can help me. If you cant even help yourself, how do you think you will help me?

Like I said - TRY ME...

I've been cast aside by society as well, yet I've managed to find my niche, and my understanding. Until you quit assuming everyone's out to get you, and start opening up to people, you will be eternally in a bottomless pit. Please PM me. NO ONE is hopeless.

[IZ]

Isn't there a MOD in this place with good morals?

Does anyone here see me as the "Bad Guy"?

[CT]

Originally posted by IZ
Isn't there a MOD in this place with good morals?

Does anyone here see me as the \"Bad Guy\"?

No I dont think you're a bad guy, why should I?
You have voiced your opinion on this matter and others have respected that, and discussed the things you said. Other then that the last couple of posts seem kind of like you're wallowing around in your own misery, and remind me of annoying gothic people trying to sap attention by acting all sad like noone can understand them. Which is kind of annoying. But i'm sure you got valid problems to deal with so i'm not judging you here.

[IZ]

Huh... all that come to mind is "Thank you"

But I am no goth, and please ignore my whinning. I am just someone who has issues like everyone else. Though I think my unskilled social methods may come out like I'm crying out. Just ignore me. :help: :sniper:

[CT]

Originally posted by IZ
Huh... all that come to mind is \"Thank you\"

But I am no goth, and please ignore my whinning. I am just someone who has issues like everyone else. Though I think my unskilled social methods may come out like I'm crying out. Just ignore me. :help: :sniper:

its ok. I think I can relate. I'm introverted and a social retard. I know.
You can PM me if you feel like talking.

[imported_Berserk_Exodus]

Yes, a lot more people than you think that are not complete nerds in fact are complete social retards as said above.

No reason to be, don't know why, perhaps it's a neurological disorder or something. Although it doesn't bother me in the long run, once I'm out of high school I'll actually be able to depend on myself unlike some people.

[gameover]

I find pornography funny. It's all so incredibly fake, and lacks any basic sense of love. Now Im not goign to for a second tell anyone else what they should do, but I think porn is completely ridiculolous. A sexual relationship that is meaningfull, where there is love involved, is SO much more satisfying. And to look at porn is to look at loveless sex with crappy actors and actresses. I just don't find it appealing. Porn is something I was really into when I was 12-14, which is quite natural, and quite common. But now, It's only good for laughs.

[lord soth]

:shock: ...... :shock:

[Awaken]

I like that, gameover, there's something not-so-arousing about a woman moaning while getting her shoe sucked, or a bunch of guys filling every orifice they can find just for the sake of the moneyshot :roll:

[Death-Wuad]

What about the fat people? They often can't find somebody.

no fat chicks

[Human]

There is several bad things about pornography.
Pornography makes a wrong picture of what love and sex really is.

I don't watch pornography, but however, I am not shocked some of my friends do. They are 'normal', but I am not. :-P

I think phornographic paintings is more moral than pictures of real people.
You can think what you want about a painting, but morally not about a person with feelings.

Instead of watching pornography, it's much better to read erotic novels who is fantasy.

It's a built-in property in the body and brain, often called nocturnal emissions or wet dreams.
If a person doesn't get a ejaculate for a while, he is more likely to get a wet dream.
Wet dreams does propably happen to stimulate people who don't get ejaculations/are abstaining from anything sexual.
You may find it strange that I mention wet dreams, but I think wet dreams is the way our subconscious handle a lack of sex fantasies, etc.
If you care, why not take a short Google search on wet dreams? You sure will find out that wet dreams are potecially much more satisfactory as pornography and that sort of things. :lol:

I have searched for wet dreams in Google some days ago myself, and you can be sure I am convinced some people is enjoying wet dreams more than porn. :rolllaugh:

If you disagree with me,- it's okay. I have propably different viewpoints than the majority, and I'm used to people in real life who thinks I am odd.
I propably am, but I see no reason to be 'normal', but what I am. :goodjob2:

Sorry if some of the text was off topic,- but I found it necessary to do a long post about this.

[CT]

Originally posted by Human
There is several bad things about pornography.
Pornography makes a wrong picture of what love and sex really is.

I don't watch pornography, but however, I am not shocked some of my friends do. They are 'normal', but I am not. :-P

I think phornographic paintings is more moral than pictures of real people.
You can think what you want about a painting, but morally not about a person with feelings.

Instead of watching pornography, it's much better to read erotic novels who is fantasy.

It's a built-in property in the body and brain, often called nocturnal emissions or wet dreams.
If a person doesn't get a ejaculate for a while, he is more likely to get a wet dream.
Wet dreams does propably happen to stimulate people who don't get ejaculations/are abstaining from anything sexual.
You may find it strange that I mention wet dreams, but I think wet dreams is the way our subconscious handle a lack of sex fantasies, etc.
If you care, why not take a short Google search on wet dreams? You sure will find out that wet dreams are potecially much more satisfactory as pornography and that sort of things. :lol:

I have searched for wet dreams in Google some days ago myself, and you can be sure I am convinced some people is enjoying wet dreams more than porn. :rolllaugh:

If you disagree with me,- it's okay. I have propably different viewpoints than the majority, and I'm used to people in real life who thinks I am odd.
I propably am, but I see no reason to be 'normal', but what I am. :goodjob2:

Sorry if some of the text was off topic,- but I found it necessary to do a long post about this.

dude, you know we're on a LD forum right, and you know what all the guys do in their LD's right? :P

[Human]

Originally posted by CT+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CT)</div><!--QuoteBegin-Human
There is several bad things about pornography.
Pornography makes a wrong picture of what love and sex really is.

I don't watch pornography, but however, I am not shocked some of my friends do. They are 'normal', but I am not. :-P

I think phornographic paintings is more moral than pictures of real people.
You can think what you want about a painting, but morally not about a person with feelings.

Instead of watching pornography, it's much better to read erotic novels who is fantasy.

It's a built-in property in the body and brain, often called nocturnal emissions or wet dreams.
If a person doesn't get a ejaculate for a while, he is more likely to get a wet dream.
Wet dreams does propably happen to stimulate people who don't get ejaculations/are abstaining from anything sexual.
You may find it strange that I mention wet dreams, but I think wet dreams is the way our subconscious handle a lack of sex fantasies, etc.
If you care, why not take a short Google search on wet dreams? You sure will find out that wet dreams are potecially much more satisfactory as pornography and that sort of things. :lol:

I have searched for wet dreams in Google some days ago myself, and you can be sure I am convinced some people is enjoying wet dreams more than porn. :rolllaugh:

If you disagree with me,- it's okay. I have propably different viewpoints than the majority, and I'm used to people in real life who thinks I am odd.
I propably am, but I see no reason to be 'normal', but what I am. :goodjob2:

Sorry if some of the text was off topic,- but I found it necessary to do a long post about this.

dude, you know we're on a LD forum right, and you know what all the guys do in their LD's right? :P[/b]

Sex dreams and wet dreams is a taboo, I know.
But that wasn't excatly my point...

[Sassinator]

Pornography be it in its litterary form or on VHS or DVD or div format in my mind entertains men its true but its fun for women too and it can be an accessory to couples be they straight or not. As long as all parties concerned in the videos/movies are consenting adults I am okay with it. Though erotic litterature is very entertaining as well. We are all sexual beings and there is nothing wrong with being sexual and enjoying sex and the different media that explores that topic.

Now if you are talking kiddy porn, beastiality, teen porn, or anything involving real pain (ie. S&M taken to the point were flesh is ripped and blood spews forth) is not cool in my mind. For those first three things I listed the non-adult involved is being taken advantage of and in no way shape or form should they be victimized or otherwise be portrayed as objects of someones desire as they (children, animals, teens) are not of consenting age or of the right species. And I am making a judgement call on behalf of the animals its true but are animals able to communicate with the person that decides that they are to be their sex toy I don't think so, so in which way is it the right of a human to impose themselves sexually on an animal...in my mind its not right at all!

So basically porn = good as long as ppl aren't abusing it or being abused/attacked in it. So use porn safely and appropriately and nobody will get hurt (as long as the adult entertainment industry maintains its standards with hygiene/health).

[Awaken]

Funny how <18 are denied any choice in a personal matter, humm.
Didn't know animals felt shame.
Some people are fucked up and get off on self-mutilation.
Anything emotionally-scarring is bad and that's about it.

:? :shock:

[Sassinator]

Those who are under 18 maybe should have some choice, but at which age can a person know and understand what there is to know about sex. Legally there is an age at which a persons ability to decide whether or not they want to have sex or not of their own free will....the age differs from province to province, state to state and country to country.

Awaken > Are you saying an 8 year old can tell a 45 year old that he/she does or doesn't want to do something sexual? There are certain concepts that people just don't grasp at young ages and/or some things certain but not all people can't handle when they are under 18. Though I am sure that there are some people that may be fully ready at 15 or 17.5 or whenever.

Furthermore, I don't recall saying anything about animals feeling shame. I couldn't say one way or the other what an animal is feeling, aside of course when my cat purrs when I carry it around the apt.

The issue I have with beastiality is that the animal has no real choice in the matter....as far as I know. That is where the lack of consent kicks in, how the heck is an animal going to consent to sex????

Some people jump off bridges, some people self mutilate.....it doesn't mean that I have to like either thing or think its okay. But I am certainly not going to dictate what someone can and can't do...ie. I don't think there should be a law against the acts which involve self mutilation or anything like that. As long of course that it is being done to themselves, and that they are not attacking or mutilating others against their will. Doms are cool, if people want to lick or kiss some ladies' boots and get their tush whipped...go nuts! I don't understand it but I'm not about to condemn someone who does and who enjoys it.

[Awaken]

I really didn't want to consider that an 8yo is able to fully understand a decision about sex, though I'm sure there are some who are...It just depends how emotionally-developed the person is. I've heard plenty of no-regrets stories, so I don't look at the issue as good vs bad. I just think that the AOC laws today are ridiculous, because it binds emotion with technicalities, and if one person is technically 'underage', the other person goes to jail, regardless of emotional circumstances. Right now, the law wins, regardless of how much harm it causes. It shouldn't be up to authority to govern what we feel inside. It should be an honest, mutual decision between people, not a commanding black and white answer. Not everyone is out to take advantage of technically-underage people, believe it or not :?

As for animals, yeah, they have no say in the situation, and yeah, it's REALLY fuckin weird and gross, but I just don't see how spending taxpayers money to jail people for it really does any good. If they're literally abusing the animal, fine, it's animal abuse...But going to jail for porking a dog? I dunno, seems pointless :)

[wer]

I think porno is fine. Some. There IS some sick stuff out there. Old people. Animals. Childeren. But most men look at the normal stuff. I meen, as long as you understand that this is'nt true sex, with to happy couples, and it dos'nt turn you into a complete ass-hole, it's fine.

[pubbles]

I personally have no problem with pornography in and of itself, but I must say I'm tired of all the shit on the internet (spam, pop-ups, malicious scripts, etc) that no one can help encountering on occasion that advertises some porn site or whatever. Especially the ones that corrut your computer.

I really don't understand that stuff. If someone's looking for porn, they'll find it. It's not gonna want to make anyone sign up for some site when they get a pop-up about "Teen Amatuers Having A Go At It In Public" while writing a summary report of last year's finances in front of their boss
or something.

[AirRick101]

Just in my experience, it's little use to try to either fight porn or to defend it...because I've done both. And I have little interest in settling a compromise, because I find that there are still tugging values under making a pretend agreement.

I've been a victim of porn...but largely in the sense of feeling guilty about it. I don't advocate or support the maintaing of pornographic materials, but the external action of stopping porn is not nearly as important as having a true change of heart on things. I've never made a promise to never look at porn again, but I find that having no attachment to it is good in every case.

[IZ]

For once, I feel the same way as someone else in here.

[Neil]

It is just a bit of fun. I wish people would stop feeling guilty about being human.

[gameover]

I dont feel guilty, I jsut think pornography's ridiculous. It's so fake and is nowhere near a decent substitute for real love. I've got better things to direct my energy towards than that garbage.

[Human]

Originally posted by Neil
I wish people would stop feeling guilty about being human.

In my opinion, nobody has a need for pornography or sexual satisfaction; it's a privilegium.
Just think about all those people who never look at pornography, they are fine with it, although the abstinence-reason is propably most often morally or religious.

Of course many people may find it difficult to abstain from pornography, but it's totally possible, if they really want.

The non-lucid dreams has a tendence to be more sexual if you abstain from pornography, wich propably is a extra well-being function from the brain, but not necessary.

[gameover]

Sex in dreams is 100 times more satisfying than porn too.

[Human]

Originally posted by gameover
Sex in dreams is 100 times more satisfying than porn too.

I think that's very true. It's more realistic.

Interesting that it isn't only me here who don't watch pornography. I feel more normal. :thumbup:

[gameover]

And it feels better too.

[IZ]

Sorry but I prefer the real thing. Though I'm against premarital sex. I just hate anything that isn't real, Like AC air, I hate it because its not real air to me. And alot of other stuff I hate too, like burgers, you thing the meat is real but its not. So I would not like to dream of making love but the real and actual performance of it is what I would prefer. Pornography is just not my thing, TV screen isn't so great. But I would rather wait for the real deal.

[Awaken]

I guess it all depends on how 'real' you accept the nonphysical world to be. Some people can get just as much (or nearly as much) enjoyment out of a dream as an event in rational physical life.

[AirRick101]

Hehe...I rarely hear of somebody saying they prefer real sex to dream sex, cuz most ppl prefer dream sex, if not liking it just as much.

I can hardly remember lucid dream sex in my experience, but I've definately had some sexual themes in my dreams. Plus, I've had plenty of other things happen in my dreams that surpass my experience in real life, like experiencing a certain euphoria. Well, maybe it's because I'm so ignorant of my internal feelings while in waking life, that's why I prize dream content so much. Of course, it's totally subjective. It's unlikely to fully understand what each is feeling, so we can't impose what we think we understand about another...

[AirRick101]

Oh yeah, I wasn't even talking consistently with the thread topic, lol.

I'd like to clarify one thing in case some people have been thinking the same thing.

Maybe the sex in porn is impersonal (usually is), and thus is considered to be abused, but I think that all too often, people discard sexuality as a whole when they decide to hate porn, and thus by mistake, disregard sex (and the spice of it) in itself. (this could be unhealthy) Fidelity is the bigger issue here.

But, I only know that this is how I was thinking recently. There were times I was so anti-porn, and I turned out to actually have lowered my respect for sex.

Just a thought. :wink:

[IZ]

...............desire............craving.......... .....beauty............fantasy................ADDI CTION............porn?

[Taosaur]

STILL having trouble IZ? Maybe you need an inhibitor, like the ones the Victorians used, with the spikes.

[OpheliaBlue]

I bumped it because I missed it.

Mmmmmmh, poooooorn.

[Haz]

I'm for it....... :roll:

[imported_Berserk_Exodus]

Meh, porn really starts to lose it's luster after awhile really. I stopped looking at it a long time ago.

[Universal Mind]

I have not read all of this thread, but I am confused about what it is about pornography that is supposedly bad for people. I think it is great that it exists. Like lucid dreaming, it allows people to explore crazy fantasies. By watching porn, one can explore really wild sexual stimulation without getting anybody pregnant, without catching an STD, and without cheating on anybody (Well, that ball park issue is being debated in another thread.). A lot of people really, really get off with porn instead of going out and trying crazy stuff with strangers and groups of strangers. It's a very good thing.

On the other hand, I'm not personally into it. I don't really get anything out of watching other people have sex. I only like watching women have it with me. I might get into porn more if the films weren't so poorly made. Every one I ever saw seemed like it was casted with random people found walking around at the state fair, the scenarios were pathetic because the acting was awful and so was the writing, and at least one of the characters always had some really disgusting action to throw in at some point. The ones I have seen turned my stomach upside down.

However, if you are talking about Playboy magazines, I have a different opinion of the quality. They are a gift from nature. I really like the articles. :wink:

[Soilent Green]

Think about it this way... if I don't watch porn, then I'm going to be thinking of something when I'm playing with the one-eyed monk. Personally, I'd prefer it to be somebody impersonal (like porn) than a friend/accomplice..so most likely I'll be thinking of a total stranger... AND THAT COULD BE YOU ANTI-PORN FANATICS!!

If I were a woman I'd rather walk the streets knowing that all of the random men I'd run into in public were later going to be jerking it to porn, rather than fantasizing about me... Remember Ladies, I'm fat and ugly...and I'm looking at YOU!! :okbyenow:

[OpheliaBlue]

Originally posted by Soilent Green
Think about it this way... if I don't watch porn, then I'm going to be thinking of something when I'm playing with the one-eyed monk. Personally, I'd prefer it to be somebody impersonal (like porn) than a friend/accomplice..so most likely I'll be thinking of a total stranger... AND THAT COULD BE YOU ANTI-PORN FANATICS!!

If I were a woman I'd rather walk the streets knowing that all of the random men I'd run into in public were later going to be jerking it to porn, rather than fantasizing about me... Remember Ladies, I'm fat and ugly...and I'm looking at YOU!! :okbyenow:
:shock:

That's the best rationalization for porn I've ever heard.

[pyrhho]

well.. yeah.. i think soilent green said it best..

but i'm gonna voice my two cents. The bible specifically says that your body is a temple. I'm just checking the plumbing, to make sure it's still in working order. Porn = Draino
If keeping the temple in order is fun, hey, why not. it's like getting a haircut. but more fun.

[Universal Mind]

It often takes pornographic thoughts for masturbation to be a successful project. If men don't masturbate or have partnered sex (which is naughtier than just thinking about sex), they will have orgasms while they dream pornographic visualizations. Thus, if you are a man, unless you are dead, in a coma, or lack sexual organs, you will inevitably have pornographic mental experiences. They might as well come from screens or pictures.

[Belisarius]

The bible passage from the old testament that is used to justify the immoralization of masturbation IMO doesn't have anything to say on the matter(search out the catechism to find the passage I'm talking about. In it God tells this guy to have a kid, and the way I read it it sounded like he was doing his wife and then pulled out and "spilt his seed on the ground" instead of making her pregnant, so God killed him. The word instead, or something like it, was definitely in that verse, and because people don't masturbate instead of having kids with their wife, I think it's safe to say he wasn't masturbating.

[pyrhho]

i beleive it was like his dead brother's wife, or something... cause there was a law like that back then or something.

i dunno, i just kinda made that up. but i think it might be right.

[Soilent Green]

Originally posted by Belisarius
The bible passage from the old testament that is used to justify the immoralization of masturbation IMO doesn't have anything to say on the matter(search out the catechism to find the passage I'm talking about. *In it God tells this guy to have a kid, and the way I read it it sounded like he was doing his wife and then pulled out and \"spilt his seed on the ground\" instead of making her pregnant, so God killed him. *The word instead, or something like it, was definitely in that verse, and because people don't masturbate instead of having kids with their wife, I think it's safe to say he wasn't masturbating.

It was Onan. Here's an article about the passage (not too poorly written considering the source is "jackinworld.com" :lol: )

http://www.jackinworld.com/library/articles/onan.html

Pyrhho, you're right.

[pyrhho]

booya! spewing BS with no back-up triumphs again!

[Howie]

Temtation lies wait for every man. Left unchecked could be their demise.[/b]


We are better than Pornography.
Don't you have to ask why we have some of these primal intinsts?

If there is not a God then has our minds evolved and with that evolution comes the distortion of some of our basic instincts.

[IZ]

This thing is still alive? Damn it!

I would post a reply about this topic, But I might as well be a Hypocrite.

........Dont ask.

[Soilent Green]

Originally posted by IZ
This thing is still alive? Damn it!

I would post a reply about this topic, But I might as well be a Hypocrite.

........Dont ask.


so why did you bump it?

[IZ]

Its had its moments and there is still many comments and opinions that haven't been discused.

Plus, I'd hate to see it die, I mean I did create it.

[AirRick101]

Everybody's got a different tolerance lv of porn, sum ppl get desensitized more than others. Like anything, overindulgence in something reduces its enjoyable aspects.

I am personally very disturbed by some of the people associated with making porn, like the directors, and doesn't seem like an ideal job to me. I get freaked by a lot of their intentions. I guess, trying to be diplomatic and dealing with porn is risky business. Have any of you watched "8MM"?

One of the reasons I am somewhat against porn is the idea of any loved one, or relative, being objectified for other's sexual desires. It disturbs me much. And I realize the damage it does when I found out what it's like to have your own partner get sexually associated with somebody else. The anger and jealously is almost unbearable.

[imported_Berserk_Exodus]

Only thing I got against it is it greatly debases female worth and creates ideals for sexual conduct and certain female attributes and can result in perversion.

[Soilent Green]

Yes.


porn is a touchy-feely subject...



..It sure is for me, at least.:goodjob2:

[IZ]

Well, I got my porn problem solved. Yep thats right.

I got myself a girlfriend, and then some, and some more, actualy some every night.
So I got to be faithfull to my girl and I just dont feel like wanting to see it anymore either.

I guess thats the power of love. :D

[Soilent Green]

Originally posted by IZ

I guess thats the power of love. :D

*flashback to "Back to the Future"*

[Barbizzle]

The other day i was tlakign to my brother .

we were talkign about porn and how it messes up the computer

i told him nto to look at it cuz it messes up the computer, thats whey the old computer is messed up is beacse I used ot llok at porn

he asked " you dont look at it anymore, why?"

I said "I'm a lucid dreamer"

he thought it was so funy, cuz he knows i lucid dream but he never thoguth that i experinced a form of sexual encounter in them.

[wasup]

How old is your brother?

[Barbizzle]

he's 14

[Potential]

no

[AirRick101]

What a post. Pretty fair of one, I have to say.

It can be a trap, no doubt. It's risky business, yo! Depends on how you want to utilize it, indeed.

[spoon]

The destruction of over indulgence in sensual preasure wreaks havoc on the entire Central Nervous System, makes vision weaker. [/b]

That's actually quite funny.

Masturbating makes you go blind!

boogity boogity boogity

DON'T TOUCH YOURSELF

-spoon

[Soilent Green]

Originally posted by spoon
The destruction of over indulgence in sensual preasure wreaks havoc on the entire Central Nervous System, makes vision weaker.

That's actually quite funny.

Masturbating makes you go blind!

boogity boogity boogity

DON'T TOUCH YOURSELF

-spoon[/b]

:mrgreen:

[Fallen.Rain]

I see that the main arguement against it is that it is demeaning to women. Well, I have to say that I, personally, am not demeaned by it. I tend to think that one can only be demeaned by one's self. If you do something contrary to your conscience or morals then you have demeaned yourself. I feel you can't really demean someone else since you can't decrease their worth as a person. They can do that to themselves tho but that is still their choice. They will deal with it.

[LucidStunna]

I watch it daily, its the coco to my pebbles, the yin to my yang, etc.... pRon OWNS m3!!!

[Yume]

Originally posted by Fallen.Rain
I see that the main arguement against it is that it is demeaning to women. Well, I have to say that I, personally, am not demeaned by it. I tend to think that one can only be demeaned by one's self. If you do something contrary to your conscience or morals then you have demeaned yourself. I feel you can't really demean someone else since you can't decrease their worth as a person. They can do that to themselves tho but that is still their choice. They will deal with it. Male porn stars have no value?

[PSmolik90]

"Why would anyone do anything that's degrading to themselves? Would you strip down in front of a crowd of people? Probably not. But would you do it if they were paying you $250 per hour? Or if they paid you $1000 per hour? Maybe then. It doesn't seem so degrading when there's a huge incentive for you to do it. So why do some feminist extremists think pornography is degrading to women? Obviously the women in pornography don't think it's degrading, otherwise they wouldn't do it. Their dignity has a price, and they were willing to sell it. They don't represent all women in general, but only the few who chose to go into that business, just as women who choose not to go into pornography don't represent the women who do. So the phrase "pornography is degrading to women" doesn't make sense. "
-Maddox

Thoughts expressed by said party negate previous argument of pornography is degrading to women.

[OpheliaBlue]

Originally posted by PSmolik90
\"Why would anyone do anything that's degrading to themselves? Would you strip down in front of a crowd of people? Probably not. But would you do it if they were paying you $250 per hour? Or if they paid you $1000 per hour? Maybe then. It doesn't seem so degrading when there's a huge incentive for you to do it. So why do some feminist extremists think pornography is degrading to women? Obviously the women in pornography don't think it's degrading, otherwise they wouldn't do it. Their dignity has a price, and they were willing to sell it. They don't represent all women in general, but only the few who chose to go into that business, just as women who choose not to go into pornography don't represent the women who do. So the phrase \"pornography is degrading to women\" doesn't make sense. \"
-Maddox

Thoughts expressed by said party negate previous argument of pornography is degrading to women.
I forgot about that Maddox post.

Good point PSmolik90.

[Tron]

I am a red-blooded male so typically... I love porn !

Ron Jeremy and John Holmes Pwnz0r!!!

[Yume]

Originally posted by OpheliaBlue+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(OpheliaBlue)</div><!--QuoteBegin-PSmolik90
\"Why would anyone do anything that's degrading to themselves? Would you strip down in front of a crowd of people? Probably not. But would you do it if they were paying you $250 per hour? Or if they paid you $1000 per hour? Maybe then. It doesn't seem so degrading when there's a huge incentive for you to do it. So why do some feminist extremists think pornography is degrading to women? Obviously the women in pornography don't think it's degrading, otherwise they wouldn't do it. Their dignity has a price, and they were willing to sell it. They don't represent all women in general, but only the few who chose to go into that business, just as women who choose not to go into pornography don't represent the women who do. So the phrase \"pornography is degrading to women\" doesn't make sense. \"
-Maddox

Thoughts expressed by said party negate previous argument of pornography is degrading to women.
I forgot about that Maddox post.

Good point PSmolik90.[/b]So infact could we say that people that are trying to make pornography illegal are degrading to mankind because they want to take away free choice towards pornography?

[IZ]

Hey I'm back. Porn is.....

[Rakkantekimusouka]

I don't know if I already posted in this topic, but I'm too lazy to look through the whole thing right now...

I LOVE YAOI!

Yaoi is gay hentai. Hentai is anime porn. Any questions? :tongue:

:D :goodjob:

[dreamtamer007]

Everyone is responsible for there own actions. But it should be restricted from children till there old enough to make mature divisions. I think there is a logical reason why athletes are restricted during a training session and the same abstinence might be of an advantage to lucid dreaming.

P.S. I notice there is more hits to this thread then others.

[IZ]

Porn has such a bad name.....

.....and does it look wrong before you recognize it or after?

Its the flesh that attracts, but its the person is the one you hate.

[Belisarius]

Originally posted by dreamtamer007
Everyone is responsible for there own actions. But it should be restricted from children till there old enough to make mature divisions. I think there is a logical reason why athletes are restricted during a training session and the same abstinence might be of an advantage to lucid dreaming.

P.S. I notice there is more hits to this thread then others.

But where do you draw the line? Many adults aren't capable of making "mature decisions"(which is pretty much impossible to define anyway). Ineptitude in decision making is no excuse for making regrettable decisions.

[Yume]

Originally posted by Belisarius


But where do you draw the line? *Many adults aren't capable of making \"mature decisions\"(which is pretty much impossible to define anyway). *Ineptitude in decision making is no excuse for making regrettable decisions.
Age vs. maturity is a hard thing to debate. People just don't want to take the time to see if every individual is mature enough to look at porn so they set an age for it. It's just skipping a job society doesn't want to do. It's like with every other decision like driving. 13 year olds could drive better than some 30 year olds out there. I'm just glad there is a driving test. To deny someone porn who is underage is sort of ridiculous. It just shows that society has no respect for the individuals choices.

[AirRick101]

I also am suspicious of trying to draw the line of maturity. Everyone's different. Whether you're under or over 18, you don't have different reactions to porn. I believe in decisions and accountability, but who are we to say when we are or aren't? There is something more important besides and behind the surface choices we make.

Porn is debatable, and will always stay that way, as well as being controversial. But is there such thing as a noble motive in being for it? It may be that the women are doing it for money, but it doesn't dampen the lack of morality that is involved.

Maddox is hella funny, but I think Maddox's opinion on this is sick, especially when admitting that the women do indeed sell their dignity, yet indulges and supports the material...

[OpheliaBlue]

I love that we live in a time where porn is fairly easy to acquire.

Hey you know that they say romance novels are the housewives' porn?

Think about it....discuss........

[Lamminated Buddha]

Originally posted by OpheliaBlue
I love that we live in a time where porn is fairly easy to acquire.

Think about it....discuss........

Yeah. There's like a hundred websites for every perversion or fetish known to man (or woman). It's just the emotion of lust, gone way out of control. Economics states where there is a means, there will be ample supply. And we are loving every bit of it.

[FoolofJoy]

I wonder how things would change if each person would make even a small effort (well, at least a bit more than my effort) to be as mindful as the Lamminated Buddha.
What If....
each of us would choose to observe the effect of just a few of our actions on the world around us, or if I may rephrase, the world that IS us? (i.e. we do not live if plants and animals do not give their lives so that we may selfishly extend our own lives. The cool thing is, as long as we are grateful and aware of this simple observation and observations like it, it's okay to be selfish, it's in our nature as humans)
What if.... I would reflect upon these totally solid evidential OBSERVATIONS I SO OFTEN IGNORE, yet which are there every moment if I would choose to take a few mindful breaths and allow them to become evident?
I guess rather than a blanket rule to cover all of mankind, I feel I should start with me as an individual and how I can be more aware of my true nature, my Buddha nature. That's all I can really do. Of course I Should also observe the effect of TELLING other people to indulge in or abstain from porn as well. This is part of what I've just said as well.

:?:

[FoolofJoy]

Disclaimer: I am influenced by certain ways of thought. This does not mean I go by blind faith. Observing truth and finding faith in solid observations is different than faith found on "what the monk says". I don't take credit for these words in these recent posts, as I reflect, what I observe as best I can, as truth.

10. "Come, Kalamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by
repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what
is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon
specious reasoning; nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been
pondered over; nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the
consideration, 'The monk is our teacher.' Kalamas, when you
yourselves know: 'These things are good; these things are not
blamable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and
observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,' enter on and
abide in them.

-Kalamata Sutra (the historical Buddha, who by the way WAS not a god, superhuman or anything other than a human that "became lucid" to life. It's kinda like our "aha" experience in our first lucid dream, only related to the topic of life, existence, and that stuff)
Someone make me stop. I've had too much caffeine!

[Lamminated Buddha]

amida buddha may not be the most approipiate diety to look forth to for guidence in this area. many consider Buddhism to be an untrue religion since it just blaket avoids the subject of sexualism altogether.

It does, like most moral codes see lust as an indulgence though.

or if I may rephrase, the world that IS us? (i.e. we do not live if plants and animals do not give their lives so that we may selfishly extend our own lives. The cool thing is, as long as we are grateful and aware of this simple observation and observations like it, it's okay to be selfish, it's in our nature as humans[/b]

I am kind of confused what you are saying here? You mean, if we express gratuide for our indulgences it redeems us from our depravity to it? I am unsure how you would do this or i it is even possible in the practice of saluting the one eyed wand (and it gets off topic from here) but you should look up the taoists understanding of coharmony within the natural way of existence and rythem of life. Rather then viewing the consumption of plants and matter as a predatory action this is part of the tao cycle. In order to expirence the tao (which is a regulatory processes that nourishes balance in the Universe) certain transitions may be made which contirbute futher to the "natural state". Since it is impossible to abstain from these practices in the first place, I would rather take the view that it is the flow of nature, rather then being bonded into redemption just by enacting the processes of living.

[Yume]

Originally posted by AirRick101
Maddox is hella funny, but I think Maddox's opinion on this is sick, especially when admitting that the women do indeed sell their dignity, yet indulges and supports the material...
You sell your dignity ro regain it. Would you rather be stubborn and not have an oppurtunity to make money or pay your bills each month and have a nice life. People use the money for real things. Porn helps the economy and the individuals in the economy because the poor are getting money for stripping down. If I needed to get some money to pay the mortgage so my family could live I would consider porn a last option, but an option at that because it gives me the ability to pay and I can regain my dignity.

[AirRick101]

Damn, why do you keep changing your gender?? I never know!

The necessity of working in porn for getting money is not that likely, at least as far I think. It's kind of like becoming an assassin, your work will depend on your conscience about it.

Part of the reason why I have the opinion I have is because there's a girl in my life I get extremely protective of, she runs into trouble from time to time. To think of her getting persuaded into doing porn or being taken advantage of breaks my heart immensely. Sexual predators have approached her before, and it's hard for me to handle.

BTW, I'm a guy, and I hear they don't get too much money in porn anyway. :shock:

[bh26]

This is an interesting disscussion. I can't say that I've never had a problem with pornography, but I wish I hadn't.

I think that anything that takes one's own self-control and ability to choose freely what they do on a daily basis should be avoided. Now, before you start thinking that I'm pro-porn, let me say that pornography is addicting. It's addicting like any other drug. Therefore it impedes your ability to live freely.

I used to not think it was such a huge deal (I've always thought it was wrong though), until I learned that a lot of people who participate in the creating of pornography (women especially and some men), are pushed or even forced into it. Others use drugs to lower their inhibitions so they're comfortable doing what they do in front of the camera.

I don't believe that we're just "animals". I guess it all depends on your personal beliefs though, which is fine.

Anyway, people should be able to express themselves as they wish, and we live in a free country. But, I think that we as human beings we really have to change some things. A kid, 12 years of age, shouldn't have the chance to view pornography, just as they shouldn't be able to smoke, do drugs, or anything else of that nature.

[AirRick101]

Well, in my experience as well, it was harder to relate with society while having addiction episodes with porn in the past. The first taste of it always gives the urge for more.... I don't mean to preach absolute morals or anything, but the fact that it's a habit that compels itself to stay secret and thus requires a level of shame to contain (at least in my case), it makes life harder... :? I couldn't imagine being totally pro-porn and disregarding everybody else's opinion or reaction. No, I'm not like that.

The body, mind, soul/spirit, are all interconnected, and each affect one another. Pornography, although tempting, "satiates" a sexual need, but really digs a deeper hole. The abundance of lustful images may and usually interrupt exclusivity in future relationships. Lust cannot be satisfied for long, but it can be reduced. Oh gosh, I'm becoming preachy, but whatever!

[FoolofJoy]

Originally posted by Lamminated Buddha
amida buddha may not be the most approipiate diety to look forth to for guidence in this area. many consider Buddhism to be an untrue religion since it just blaket avoids the subject of sexualism altogether.

It does, like most moral codes see lust as an indulgence though.

or if I may rephrase, the world that IS us? (i.e. we do not live if plants and animals do not give their lives so that we may selfishly extend our own lives. The cool thing is, as long as we are grateful and aware of this simple observation and observations like it, it's okay to be selfish, it's in our nature as humans

I am kind of confused what you are saying here? You mean, if we express gratuide for our indulgences it redeems us from our depravity to it? I am unsure how you would do this or i it is even possible in the practice of saluting the one eyed wand (and it gets off topic from here) but you should look up the taoists understanding of coharmony within the natural way of existence and rythem of life. Rather then viewing the consumption of plants and matter as a predatory action this is part of the tao cycle. In order to expirence the tao (which is a regulatory processes that nourishes balance in the Universe) certain transitions may be made which contirbute futher to the \"natural state\". Since it is impossible to abstain from these practices in the first place, I would rather take the view that it is the flow of nature, rather then being bonded into redemption just by enacting the processes of living.[/b]

It's unfortunate that so much information exists proclaiming Amida Buddha to be a deity, Amida is actually Tao. Here's a little bit of info from my Fellowship's website at http://buddhistfaith.tripod.com/pureland_s...angha/id21.html (http://buddhistfaith.tripod.com/pureland_sangha/id21.html)

"Amida Buddha is the heart of Shin Buddhist faith and praxis. First revealed by the historical Buddha over 2,500 years ago, the name Amida is derived from the ancient Sanskrit language, Amitabha or Amitayus, which means Immeasurable Life and Light or Oneness. The word Amida is a personification for the supra-transcendent reality which is “unborn, uncreated and formless” known as Dharmakaya, Nirvana, Emptiness, the One Mind, Boundless Life, the Life Force and Buddha Nature. As the manifestation of this universal truth, Amida is the active caring force that surrounds and permeates us, ceaselessly working to awaken us to reality as it is, Nirvana. She is considered the Great Parent offering unconditional love and universal compassion that assures spiritual liberation for all. With Amida, no one is left behind."

[FoolofJoy]

Originally posted by Lamminated Buddha
amida buddha may not be the most approipiate diety to look forth to for guidence in this area. many consider Buddhism to be an untrue religion since it just blaket avoids the subject of sexualism altogether.

It does, like most moral codes see lust as an indulgence though.

or if I may rephrase, the world that IS us? (i.e. we do not live if plants and animals do not give their lives so that we may selfishly extend our own lives. The cool thing is, as long as we are grateful and aware of this simple observation and observations like it, it's okay to be selfish, it's in our nature as humans

I am kind of confused what you are saying here? You mean, if we express gratuide for our indulgences it redeems us from our depravity to it? I am unsure how you would do this or i it is even possible in the practice of saluting the one eyed wand (and it gets off topic from here) but you should look up the taoists understanding of coharmony within the natural way of existence and rythem of life. Rather then viewing the consumption of plants and matter as a predatory action this is part of the tao cycle. In order to expirence the tao (which is a regulatory processes that nourishes balance in the Universe) certain transitions may be made which contirbute futher to the \"natural state\". Since it is impossible to abstain from these practices in the first place, I would rather take the view that it is the flow of nature, rather then being bonded into redemption just by enacting the processes of living.[/b]

Hi again :) I wanted to adress the common misconception that Buddhism does not adress sexualism. There may be lack of absolutes in the scriptures of buddhism, however the basic teachings contain the are guidlines for observing the working of the Tao, and thus allowing us to attempt to blend with these truths of nature. There is really nothing in life Buddhism can't deal with because it is simply the study of truth. As an example, another quote from our site:

"Let go of grasping and suffering stops. I once got attached to an idea about which way the toilet paper roll "should" be put in the holder. Every time it was in "wrong", I would get myself all irritable and surly. The roll of paper had never caused me trouble before I knew how it "ought" to be, so obviously I was causing myself all those problems. By contemplating this, I got over attachment to the idea, and now when the roll is in "wrong" I just turn it around. I no longer make myself and my family miserable about it. Next time you're sitting in the john, look at the roll of ticker tape and think of the people who say "Buddhism isn't concerned with everyday life". If that ain't everyday life, you tell me what is! "

I agree entirely with your view and was unclear in my post which lead you you believe otherwise. I guess I still feel that "predatory action" as you call it, is what it is. Predatory action is part of the Tao and that is not a bad thing. It is simply important to acknowledge the Tao/Amida Buddha as that Infinite Light and Compassion of the Universe. We should acknowledge that there is something greater than our self-centered ego selves.

My observation is that the majority of pornography that I have seen would have a negative effect on those who encounter it. There are some educationally oriented sources which depict loving, caring couples and whos creation was motivated by the desire to help other loving couples. These can be beneficial. Porn is really like anything else, like a computer for example. You can use a computer for looking up child porno, or the wisdom of Lao Tzu. Our motivation for doing something is more important than what we do, as long as our motivation is in accord with the Tao.

I noticed you referred to the teachings of Buddha as "moral codes that see lust as indulgence". I won't say that's wrong, but I will say I see the teachings of buddha and Lao Tzu to be "guidlines" for living through attaining realization of truth rather than a "literal absolute" to be adhered to in all circumstances such as may may view the Bible scriptures.
I hope that helps, my wording is confusing,
Elkie

[Lamminated Buddha]

hi jc


Thanks for correcting my misconceptions. simple misuse or incorrect application of wording in all its subtlety can leave great room for misintrepretation. the sage remains indifferent to the hectic flow of life, instead outwarly observing it, and later inwardly contemplating the true meaning. Seemingly, the foundations of sprituality are decoded using tools of Interlect and allegorical obscurity. Because there is no true answer for correct or natural sexual behaviour (as opposed to say, the presrciptive virtues of fundementalist christianity), it is up to the sage to dertimine his own mind what is true in liason with the tao.

I hope this is a more correct understanding of buddhaism? I am neither buddhaist nor taoist though I am now looking outward to get a greater perspective. My mothers side were buddhists before migrating then converted in what was a little confusing for me. One day we were eating at a vegetarian restaurant, the next all the buddhaist statues in the house were being smashed as false idols.

[AirRick101]

I also enjoy how Buddhism can be applied to everything, even if it's imaginary.. While a some major religions just leave you in the dark on taboo and endlessly debatable topics, like Catholicism.

I agree that the motive behind doing what you're doing means more than what you're actually doing. I rarely hear cases of people being convinced through debate and argument. (it's unlikely a debate won't involve emotions)

Buddhism's more of an applied philosophy than it is religion, everybody has the same potential. (no, not like Scientology, which is a money milking organization, which works to some extent, but is wayy overrated)

[FoolofJoy]

Those are very good observations my friends. Laminated Buddha, It saddens me to hear stories where the statue of a Buddha is seen as an idol. No statues have any kind of magical power in themselves, however the statue of a Buddha can help to remind us of the Calm, tranquil, peaceful, happy, compassionate seed of love that lies within each and every human, and what the result of that seed coming to fruition as it did in the Historical Buddha Sakyamuni as well as countless other everyday people. A statue of Buddha is not unlike the statue of Mary for the Catholics. Idolatry can take place in any religion unfortunately as a result of ignorance. Another example of correct perception is the candle on the altar, which is not lit to "worship" the Buddha as a god (he was not), but rather to bring our awareness of the LIGHT of TRUTH into the present moment, to help us realize the potential within each and every one of us. The buddha is not separate from us, it is that seed of goodness within us. "Buddha" can just be a personification of this concept. Now tying this into pornography victims will be tricky and perhaps ill-attempted, however I think it is safe to say that anyone can be a victim of pornography. Even the monk who leads a retreat and speaks with the woman who is suffering from abuse connected to a husband influenced by hurtful porno will feel the pain of the woman. Everything is interconnected. Our actions DO effect others.

[IZ]

I agree with jcbrooks...

............ Many families and especialy wifes are being effected by the addiction of pornography in their spouses life. Porn can shatter a family and ruin a bond of love towards the poeple that are special to you. And the worst thing is that you wouldn't even notice porn being the problem, but would blame others for your misfortune, and still keep a close connection with porn.

Well its been nice coming back to respond a bit. I'm off again. :cactus: be back soon.

[jill1978]

It's an interesting topic, and we all like to give our 2 cents me included. I look at porn, alone and with my husband.( not child porn or anything involving people against their will). People have the choice to be in Pornography, and get paid money. We all sell something of ourselves in some way to make a living. Dont feel pitty for porn stars, enjoy the beauty of their bodies without shame. I do.

[IZ]

Ok, I just like to point out that if my girlfriend catches me watching porn, she would kill me!! and I love her for that :D

[Vampyre]

I find porn to be really demeaning, on the half of the people in it. Seeing/watching it I don't find is a big deal at all. But there's certain times that there's women (and maybe men, but I don't know) who are really really good looking, and all you think of when you see them is "Holy crap" he/she "is so damn hot." or something similar. And then you generally just like seeing them. Then after seeing them naked, they become tainted and you no longer crave their looks. You look at them and go "Yeah she's hot. So is a lot of other people."

I suppose I see posing for porn as destroying any sense of innocence you have and becoming part of a huge pool of people who are generally looked down upon.

Just general posing (non-pornagraphic) can be perfectly fine. Even if the person isn't wearing clothes, if they're covered up, then they can sustain their innocence and still be looked at as more of a person. Like a girl who has photo shoots in which she is naked, but the photos don't actually show her breasts or otherwise, that girl who keep that innocence. If she put down her arms or whatever was covering her, then the innocnece is gone and she is regarded as a sex figure, nothing else.

I dunno, there has just been times when I've noticed somebody seeing someone good looking crave to see them naked. But for me, there's times when someone is SO good looking that I don't want to see them naked, and never look at them in any sort of sexual way.

Damn that took longer to explain than I expected.

[AirRick101]

Not sure what to say anymore...

But the motivation behind the porn industry and consumership is enough to express the corruption and "unnecessity of it." To get the girls to do that shit is enough proof of disrespect for their bodies. Fuck that, even if it's for money. Sometimes (no, usually) values are worth more than material goods. It's kinda like if someone would give me money to kill a man, no amount of money could bribe me.

I myself hate it when a guy only wants to do a hot girl and make sexual innuendos out loud about it, I look at them with pity. They have no concept of real love.

I can sort of feel Vampyre's post about seeing someone so good looking we don't want to see them naked, or to exploit their physical beauty for our selfish desires. They are too valuable to us to just use like that.

And IZ, I envy you! :mad: I was worried when my gf said she didn't care if I looked at porn, or even *cheated* on her. I want somebody possessive!!!

[Lobe]

While I dislike the porn industry immensly, I'm not completely anti-porn. Looking at a bit of erotic nudity can be useful if you're single. Tasteful, normal stuff I've got no problem with, I guess the pr0n industry doesn't have a great deal of it though. I don't think that porn promotes sexual deviance (though unfortunately sexual deviance seems to promote a lot of porn). It's such an incredibly broad term that it makes it difficult to form a solid stance on.

[Belisarius]

As a matter of policy I would say that the porn industry should be allowed to flourish because people want pornography, and people our willing to provide it. As long as there's no coercion involved in it I think it should be allowed(in other words, unless there's coercion coercion shouldn't be used to stop it). The success of the porn industry is a testimony to the fact that it makes people happy, and the money made by the stars themsleves shows that, at least at the time, they feel it is in their best interests.

I think the only real question in this issue is that of policy.

[AirRick101]

Makes people happy??? Porn consumers are caught in the desire to have more, and although the desire gets fulfilled, it was increased and exploited by the porn industry itself. I understand the educational viewpoint of defending it...but I just sometimes find it hard to ignore the real life indoings of the industry. If we are talking about the sex movie type, women are destroying their sexual exclusivity for their ideal partner when they do it onscreen with many men (unless they have no feelings about it) and it's just a disturbing thought to me. I guess it's kinda along the lines of arguing having foreign kids build our Nike shoes for 6 cents an hour...it's unethical, yeah...and sure, we like the shoes, but we don't really need those nike's, the real benefit goes to the manufacturers' desire for financial flourishing.

But I don't mean to sound extremist, because I can't really honestly say I'm perfect, considering my past.

haha, I know what you mean by tasteful, normal stuff....I've had my fair share of porn absorption, a lot of the stuff out there that's wild, raunchy, and considered "hot" is a big turn off to me because it displays a desperate attempt to milk every last pleasure out of sex....

But yes, it's hard to make a stance on this, I agree. but I still feel like leaning to one side more than the other.

[Belisarius]

I have to reply to your comment on shoe making in third world countries. I would much rather working for 6 cents an hour under terrible conditions in a third world country than starving along with my family which is the option here. Cheap labor is usually crappy labor, capital is often much more expensive in third world countries as well. In order for this kind of labor to be economical at all, they have to pay them little, or fire them. It's not like the children(or at least their parents) don't choose to work at these places.

Child labor is perfectly ethical.

[ElijahJones]

This topic is hot, its only a week old and has 200 posts. Anyway my view on pornography is that in the hands of children it is very detrimental. Even for adult males I think it causes them to look at things differently, like women for instance.

Whether someone who is a legal adult should be able to make it and view it if they so choose, I think yes as long as the result is not an infringement on the right of others not to make it or view it. The fact is our culture bombards us with images everyday that many of us do not want to see, graphic news depictions of death and ever more provocative television and magaizine ads and shows.

The internet solves this in one way because a person with a high quality browser never really needs to see anything other than a web page title and brief description. I heard that they are about to come out with a .xxx domain. Most porn sites will want to get it because it is advertising and it will allow browsers to better keep children away from their sites which is something that the respectful industry wants to distance itself from especially after the Tracy Lords scandal.

Sometimes the statistics behind things reveal the real areas of concern and with the porn industry I think that a study of how many of the women have come from sexually abusive homes would be very enlightening. People rarely choose to do anything they think is a step down unless they have a nagging low self-esteem. In fact for alot of the women who do it it seems like an opportunity, they get paid for doing it and they get to choose when it happens. The young men have similar stories but there is not such a stigma attached to male porn stars, in fact most porn watchers and distributers are men.

If one were to visit the very depths of the porn addiction in America, make no doubt you would reveal connections to organized crime (domestic and international), drugs, rape, child molestation and other aspects of human nature so ugly that one would have to hope that this beast does not survive.

That many humans can rarely do anything in moderation is one reason to regulate porn. In some ways social tabboos about porn are a protection. But pornography is an issue that will not go away as long as human beings are alive on this earth.

Personally I try not to view porn because I like it way too much to stop at just one. A wise old man once said ," All things are mine to choose but I will not be made the slave of anything."

[Je33ica]

Originally posted by ElijahJones
This topic is hot, its only a week old and has 200 posts.

lol, check the year my friend.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/je33ica/oneyear.jpg

nonetheless, it is a hot topic

[ElijahJones]

LOL, totally missed that. On the for it or against it part I could not vote. I am for it in the right place and time and for the right people and against it in the wrong place and time and with the wrong people.

BTW Your graphic at that size is making the thread harder to read even at 1024X768

[Je33ica]

Originally posted by ElijahJones
BTW Your graphic at that size is making the thread harder to read even at 1024X768

fixed, sorry for being suck a Nazi :happy:

[InTheMoment]

je33ica wrote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTEsuck a Nazi :-P [/b][/b][/quote]

/me breaks out his Nazi uniform.

[OpheliaBlue]

Originally posted by InTheMoment
je33ica wrote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<div class='quotemain'>suck a Nazi :-P [/b][/quote]

/me breaks out his Nazi uniform.[/b][/quote]
lmao I saw that too

Je33's suck nazi joke has been immortalized in DV quotes

[InTheMoment]

Ophelia wrote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTEJe33's suck nazi joke has been immortalized in DV quotes[/b][/b][/quote]

lol...nice...I love those Freudian slips. ;) ~

[Placebo]

Hmm, don't tell me this thread is finally winding down into senselessness?

[Je33ica]

LMAO!! how did that happen?? perhaps it was a Freudian slip, i'm so demented! :biggrin:

[Kaniaz]

I posted here before but my opinon has probably changed (it was some year ago I think). It goes like this. "Porno all the way." The end. :mrgreen:

[Fetish]

no one seems to want to argue the "child Labor " debate a few post up ...interseting :|

[IZ]

"Child Labor"? Concerning childporn or abusement of children in the work field?

[Oneironaut]

Hmm. Ok.
Pornography: For it.

Pornography, in itself, is not a negative thing. The desire to view sex, when it comes right down to it, is instinctually as natural as the desire to participate. Morals placed upon you while growing, whether rational or over the top, distort your viewpoint either in a positive or negative direction as you get older, overshooting that first, intial truth. No matter whether you are comfortable watching it, or not, are both understandable perspectives, as long as you keep in mind that pornography (Natural acts of pornography) is not wrong.
It is the application of pornography that can take a very natural thing and twist it into a negative, even literally Destructive thing. The internet provides proof of an Infinite number of immoral (By any competent *sp* human standard) sexual exploits. However these are soulless, irresponsible toxins that serve no use, to me, but to degenerize and desensitize society with the parallel agenda of making a quick Buck.
...with this in mind, I have no arguement that pornography can be Used to do wrong.
But....this is the way of all things.
A butterknife can be a deadly instrument of carnage when used in the proper fashion. This does not mean that butterknives should be taken off of the market.
It is in the hands of producers (whether they are 'producing' porn, a sitcom, or a blockbuster action flick.) to take into account the moral influences their work might place on society. If any free-thinking adult wants to watch a program depicting one of the most natural inherant (sp) acts being performed on a screen, who is authorized to call this person Immoral, or just strictly wrong?
You would also have to (breifly, as this should be common sense to adults) bring in the subject of children. As with anything rated Above the obvious safety barrier for a Minor viewing audience, it is up to the Parent to watch over what their children are viewing. It is also up to the adults to recognize (which they have) that children being Used in porn is one of the most horrible acts imaginable, and should be properly dealt with. However these, again, are negatives that stem from a naturally neutral, if not positive form of entertainment.
You can find a rated R movie at blockbuster, filled with violence and/or sex. But it is up to the adults to make sure the minors don't get their hands on them. Some of them may, (or unfortunately alot through the internet) but to condemn the Concept of regular porn, would be to condemn Any viewing material not fit for the eyes of a child.
Again, at least the way I see it, it is the unfortunate side-effect that some people are willing to cross that moral gray-area and either allow porn itself to get to their children, or others' children (the internet could regulate itself ALOT better than it currently does) and those who promote violence, degradation, pedophilia and other common-sense 'don't-fuckin-do-thats,' that is the destructive force, not porn itself.

[Technodreamer]

I am for porn. I think that the people who are in the porn have chosen to be there, and it's their choice.

I also think that people say they dislike porn because they are insecure. It is natrual to be stimulated by porn.

It destroys character[/b]
Prove it. I could just as easily say that it builds character.

What is sick about finding the opposite gender attractive?[/b]
Or the same gender, depending on the person's sexuality.

[IZ]

Its been a while since this topic has died but I felt as an up-to-date status on how the members on this site are doing on this topic, I chose to revive it.

I dont even know if it even belongs here anymore or in the spiritual section now. Unless you feel it effects your spiritual relation, if not then this is just the home for it.

[Dangeruss]

pornography, i think, is a double-edged sword. Let us recall 1984.

The proliteriat received government-issued porn to keep them complacent and under control. This effect is true, I know personally if it weren't for porn I would have gone crazy by now and either ended up a hopeless pervert or an ambitious ladies-man.

The party members were denied any kind of sexual satisfaction, especially porn. Then their sexual frustration was channeled into love of big brother and hatred for Goldstein.

i think it causes a degree of complacency which reduces frustration, but at the same time makes us a bit too complacent. I don't think porn-free is necessarily the way to be, because personally I'd be a much angrier, pushy, and unreasonable person without the minimal satisfaction it provides, but at the same time overindulgence is just as dangerous. Moderation in all things 8)

[Leo Volont]

Well, when it comes to being susceptable and thus victimized by one's own sexuality, one hardly has very many alternatives. One cannot take one's self to the Animal Hospital and have one's self neutered as one would a tom cat. I haven't heard of any over the counter medications one can take to deflect the sex urge, that is without other troubling side effects. Though I suppose one could substitute a great hunger for the sexual appetite and fast to such an extent that one is too weak from starvation to have any resources left to fuel the libido.

So, given our choices, we can consult a convenient piece of explicit literature once in awhile, or we can go out chasing the Real Thing. Hmmmmm. where are the liabilities and risks the greatest?

It reminds me of what I once told some ignorant Priest when I had gone to Confession, that form required me to confess something, but that what I was confessing should hardly be counted as a sin at all, when it is considered what the alternative could have been. There can be no comparison at all between entirely hallow and insubstantial fantacies on the one side, and the actual commission of sexual acts on the other... not to mention the trouble and expense that would be involved. Particularly if one is driven into dating. then one must match wits with some female, god only knows what her agenda might be. with all of the emotional manipulations that that could entail, who is to say it could not end in some disasterous marriage. One could lose one's house and all of one's savings, and for what? For sex!? A silly reason when such provocative pornography is so universally available.

[Slight]

I have always been for porn. Nice to watch and see, for both man and woman. Since porn is nothing more than humiliation of women, I stay away from it - if I get to see it anyway, it disgusts me. It almost makes me lose my erection as I masturbate.
With a girl I would only watch passionate movies going towards this category.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Slight
I have always been for porn. Nice to watch and see, for both man and woman. Since porn is nothing more than humiliation of women, I stay away from it - if I get to see it anyway, it disgusts me. It almost makes me lose my erection as I masturbate. *
With a girl I would only watch passionate movies going towards this category.

It is mere propaganda that pornography 'humiliates' women. One only need interview some of the most popular of the Porn Stars and ask them if they feel very humiliated.

I was once dragged off to an Exotic Dance Club where I witnessed an interesting phenomena... a young woman, one of the Stars, came out in her robe between shows and said to five or six tables of men, "Hi boys, I bet I can make you all say 'sure'".

Guess what happened.

Simultaneously, like a chant, every man at every table all at once said "Sure".

What power that young lady held sway over every man in the room.

How does that possibly describe 'humiliation' to any rational person.

These pornographic young women are perhaps rather empowered by this Pornography.

heck, at least they are making more than they could flipping burgers.

[Slight]

I see what you are saying.
And I also think, that those porn stars acutally can't feel humiliated, otherwise they could just stop doing it - it is not like in a lot of eastern european countries, where young girls are often led to pornography by a more powerful person.
Still, I see porn movies on the internet, where girls almost puke when getting a facial ... how poor are these girls that keep on doing it? They are not professionals, I know, but by now there are more unprofessional porn movies to see, than professional ones. That is my impression ..
And I don't think it is enough to see the money when comparing to flipping burgers.
I don't know what happens to their mental condition if they do stuff they don't necessary like (puking when facial...), because I haven't been a pornstar, but it must leave mental marks in the long run...

[InTheMoment]

My choice of porn is much like my driving...violent, illegal and all over the place.

[OpheliaBlue]

My choice of porn is much like my coffee...hot, black, and with a shot of cream.