animal cruelty

[LucidFlanders]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uN5fC-kdUQ

Discuss.

[Taosaur]

Um, yeah--if you're wearing something else's hide on your person, you can pretty much rest assured that the animal didn't live a stellar life, nor give up its skin willingly. Personally, I'm not dogmatic about avoiding animal fabrics, but I do find fur and shiny leather pretty distasteful and ridiculous looking.

[Xox]

This stuff makes me really sad. If I think about it too much I'd start crying. :(

:cry:

[Mes Tarrant]

I don't wanna watch it. :( Can someone summarize it for me?

[kichu]

I didn't watch the video, but judging from the posts here, it's about fur and I've seen enough of those videos to last me a lifetime.

I like this quote, in regards to animal cruelty in general:

"Isn't man an amazing animal? He kills wildlife--birds, kangaroos, deer, all kinds of cats, coyotes, beavers, groundhogs, mice, foxes, and dingoes--by the million in order to protect his domestic animals and their feed. Then he kills domestic animals by the billion and eats them. This in turn kills man by the million, because eating all those animals leads to degenerative--and fatal--health conditions like heart disease, kidney disease, and cancer. So then man tortures and kills millions more animals to look for cures for these disease. Elsewhere, millions of other human beings are being killed by hunger and malnutrition because food they could eat is being used to fatten domestic animals. Meanwhile, some people are dying of sad laughter at the absurdity of man, who kills so easily and so violently, and once a year sends out cards praying for "Peace on Earth." -- C. David Coats

[Serkat]

I always wondered why animal rights activists have such a fascination with animal cruelty that they feel they must show everyone their footage and make everyone feel bad about themselves.

They kind of imply that what they are showing is the standard and that anyone who buys animal products is a perverted asshole who couldn't care less about animal abuse. Awww, those poor animals! That is really the lowest form of trying to get supporters - and it works.

Here's a hint: Some people treating animals cruelly and someone else videotaping that does not constitute an ethical argument. Skinning live animals, kicking farm birds or a half-dead chicken rotting in its feces is simply this: GORE. PETA seems to be fucking obsessed with gore. They keep spreading the same old grainy videos of animals being abused in the most brutal ways. This is totally uncalled for.

And by the way, PETA is to me a distasteful, fundamentalist, anti-human terrorist organization. And using animals is different from abusing animals or "animal cruelty".


Seriously, I find this video worse than the animal cruelty it shows. And this dumbfounded bitch McCarthy commenting on it like she's the shit. Actually showing someone stepping on a live animal's head like this has any meaning besides it being perverted. There is NO need to show this to ANYONE and it's ironic that a group like PETA is the one to do it.

"Hey, we're totally against animal cruelty. Here, look at my compilation of animals getting kicked, slashed, stepped on, thrown around, shot, skinned and burnt."
What a bunch of stupid fucking cunts.

Hey, if anyone wants to abuse animals, all he has to do is buy some and treat them like shit. There's not really much the animals can do, or Stella McCarthy can do or some other misguided animal rights activist can do. Some people are SHIT, but that has zero to do with the question of animal rights.

[kichu]

^ ^ ^ :roll: Get outta here.

[Serkat]

Yes, I need to get back to asphyxiating puppies, wearing polar bear fur, anyway. Oh, and step on animals. Yes!

For the record: Are you vegan?

[Xox]

Wow. :roll:

[Serkat]

So I am assuming you are both vegan.
And surely the copper in your house was produced without cow bones.

[Xox]

So I am assuming you are both vegan.
And surely the copper in your house was produced without cow bones.

Uh no, you assume wrong. there is no such thing as a vegan. It's impossible.

[Serkat]

Uh no, you assume wrong. there is no such thing as a vegan. It's impossible.So, what was your rolleye'd 'Wow' in reference to?

[suttsman]

I didn't watch, but I have like 70 times in English class when we were on the Holocaust unit.

Killing animals is completely fine. But making them suffer unbearingly is just unneccesary. I've killed a deer or two in Hunting season. All that happens is that the deer gets shot in the heart/brain and dies just like that. I don't go over and rip it's head off while it's alive! (I rip it off when it's dead. :D)

And btw, not all meat companies do this. This is probably the worst one. Other ones are probably really humane. PETA just wants you to get the worst image in your head.

Animal cruelty is horrible. But just sitting there videotaping it so your stupid club can get publicity is worse.

So, what was your rolleye'd 'Wow' in reference to?

Probably you sounding like as much of a jackass as possible.

[Xox]

Yeah, that's like me, I don't get all offended at people who hunt and stuff. All I ask is to not "torture" them, and don't kill them for fun.

[Mes Tarrant]

I can certainly appreciate Korritke's stance on this. I think he and suttsman basically have the same point, but suttsman probably made it a bit more clear. It sort of reminds me of Christian fundamentalists who stand around our college campus holding up HUGE photos of 7 month old aborted babies, just trying to win support for their anti-abortion stance. :P They don't care that those are pictures of babies who have just been born prematurely, they don't care that it's extremely rare for an abortion to happen after the 3rd month of pregnancy... they just use those horrible pictures to shock people into supporting them.

Yeah uhh, I hope that example is at least moderately relevant. :P Kinda rambled there. Anyway yeah, animal cruelty sucks ass.

[cuddleyperson]

hmmm I'll brace myself for attack but.....

I agree with Korittke.

OK so they show you videos of all these animals being treated so horribly. Somehow this equated to " EVERYONE WHO BUYS FUR IS A HORRIBLE SICK HUMAN BEING!!". Well I'm sorry but that's just plainly not true. Did you know that a large number of Christians, Muslims, Hindus etc are prejudiced against homosexuals? In fact if we went across the world and interviews the thousands of homosexuals or other "abominations", especially in small towns, we would find accounts of horrible psychical and mental abuse, children being forced out of their homes by their parents, homosexuals being kicked to the floor by groups of loving and caring followers of God. So maybe i should start an organization to show the world these horrors that religions causes?

below is an example of what could be said from the above information...

in fact why not use the relatively small sample of religious people involved in discriminating against homosexuals to tell the world.. " IF YOU ARE RELIGIOUS YOU ARE SICK! YOUR GOD NOT ONLY ALLOWS DISCRIMINATION OF THE VULNERABLE BUT HE ADVOCATES IT! ANY RELIGIOUS PERSON SHOULD LOOK AT THEMSELVES AT VOMIT OR FOLLOWING A BELIEF SYSTEM OF HATE, ALIENATION OF OTHERS, KILLING OF THEIR FLESH AND BLOOD!!"

but... of course this is not fair and is not accurate. As the majority of religious people are loving and caring people.

You may claim my example is nothing like animal cruelty, but human to human cruelty is exactly the same and if we are to categories cruelty it is much worse, but is left alone.

Humans are the dominant species on this planet. If your religious this is especially so as God tells us to rule over the animals. Humans also need clothes,food and other products such come from animals, this is nature. So we herd animals together and breed them, then we kill them and take what we need from that animal. Now i will admit seeing battery chickens and other animals trapped in ridiculously small spaces is cruel, my family buys organic free-range chickens, wont do much good but we know we are not supporting battery chickens( the meat is poor anyway). But then again methods like this make meat cheaper, free range is expensive. Not everyone can afford high grade meat and so since many people can only buy cheap meat, companies must make this meat cheap, for example breeding chickens in this "battery chicken" method. So while the middle and upper classes my think its vile, well honestly what other methods are going to make food affordable to those who don't have all the money for luxuries.

What i am trying to say is that organizations with agendas do blow things out of proportion. Maybe some fur coats are made from animals that were skinned alive, but the majority, especially if you buy from more developed countries, wont be. of course if one buys from a poor country since they want it cheap, again cheap means cheap practices. So in those countries maybe animals are caught from the wild, not fed, skinned alive etc. Because for one thing the culture is different, a few hundred years ago in first world countries we treated animals with the same low level of consideration and also because they need all the money they can get.

It may be cruel, but unfortunately the world is not a perfect place. You can't have a high standard life for everyone, there;s just not enough resources. Some people are going to suffer in this world, some animals are going to suffer because of us. Unless you want humans to live in a completely self sustainable way, which means a large cull of humans for a start and then a life similar to what we had hundreds of years ago before much in the way of technology, then your going to have to accept this is the way things are.

I'm sorry if i offend and it seems from peoples complete disagreement and disapproval with Korittke opinion i will. But I'm not going to change my view, if you want to insult me because of my view, please do it in a PM for the forums sake.

[kichu]

Yes, I need to get back to asphyxiating puppies, wearing polar bear fur, anyway. Oh, and step on animals. Yes!

For the record: Are you vegan?

I'm a vegetarian. Working towards eliminating as much animal product from my life as possible. I don't know exactly what that will encompass, but I'm slowly learning and trying everyday.

Look, you can freak out and ramble all you want, here's my pov and it's pretty basic. Factory farming, the fur industry - it sucks. It's as simple as that. You see what actually goes on and honestly, the best way that I can put it is that it sucks.

I get that people will eat meat and wear fur, and surprisingly, I could even be ok with that, if it was just more humane and if humans were less excessive about it. That's it. It's simple.

[Spartiate]

My stance on the matter is that harvesting what natural ressources we need from domesticated animals is acceptable, so is controlled hunting and trapping of non-endangered wild species. What bothers me is any form of harming exotic/endangered animals and cruel treatment of pets.

[Never]

I always find it odd; the extremes on both sides of this argument.

I have been vegetarian for 8 years; not for animal rights, but because of the sick industry. Call it animal "welfare"; including my own for not eating contaminated meat. Animal rights is impossible; the mere concept is a fallacy. To impose rights on animals is a crime against nature. I think most animal rights people really believe in animal welfare. I am not opposed to hunting or eating meat, just factory farming. Just remember that groups like PETA are a mess like everything else, and tend to confound the problem while adding new ones.

[LucidFlanders]

I don't wanna watch it. :( Can someone summarize it for me?


It's really gory. I watched it because i feel as if i cannot just ignore seeing what's going on. Anyway.... it pretty much was animals in extreme pain getting beat and unable to defend themselves because how much they got beat and get tortured alive. This is a good reality check. It's wrong but we cannot police every country to our beliefs, although you're pretty stupid if you don't know that it's wrong. I wont get into it, it's VERY gory.

[27]

The real deal on PETA:

Part 1 (http://youtube.com/watch?v=JTQCQ1eI7Is)

Part 2 (http://youtube.com/watch?v=5kWPkNvWOxI)

Part 3 (http://youtube.com/watch?v=QK1wE3-aKqo)

[LucidFlanders]

The real deal on PETA:

Part 1 (http://youtube.com/watch?v=JTQCQ1eI7Is)

Part 2 (http://youtube.com/watch?v=5kWPkNvWOxI)

Part 3 (http://youtube.com/watch?v=QK1wE3-aKqo)

Penn and Teller are a waste of time.

[27]

Only if you want to ignore their facts.

[LucidFlanders]

I mean on their usual junk.

[O'nus]

The crucial point here ought to be to focus on the people doing these things and why they are doing them. The focus should not be on making vapid policies that will easily be ignored by someone who is willing to skin animals alive. Instead, investigate the reasons for why they are doing these awful acts and remove the incentive.

What do you think...?
~

[LucidFlanders]

The crucial point here ought to be to focus on the people doing these things and why they are doing them. The focus should not be on making vapid policies that will easily be ignored by someone who is willing to skin animals alive. Instead, investigate the reasons for why they are doing these awful acts and remove the incentive.

What do you think...?
~


Maybe it's rules to the job? maybe they like it that way because they like suffering? who knows what it is. Kill them first, and fast before you do anything. I can't really say anything because i eat meat, but i can be against the suffering.

[Mes Tarrant]

^^ Well someone mentioned cuz it's cheaper. I really don't see the cheapness in skinning something alive though. Maybe the people who do it are of the firm belief that animals don't feel pain and things like that.

[O'nus]

Maybe it's rules to the job?


Thanks to the animal movements, can you find a job where it is necessary to deliberately make an animal suffer?

maybe they like it that way because they like suffering? who knows what it is.


Then we ought to foucs on the individual commiting the act, not policies that would mean nothing to a sadistic animal killer.

Kill them first, and fast before you do anything. I can't really say anything because i eat meat, but i can be against the suffering.

You can still eat and kill animals in a way that does not make them suffer. I will eat animals and have no problem about it. However, I do have a problem with animals being tortured for no reason.


^^ Well someone mentioned cuz it's cheaper.

Then what ought to be done is a policy set forth so that all skin/fur companies have a specific device to do the skinning/killing (that is, of course, civil and passes PETA approval) and if the companies do not have them, tax them heavily each month. Something like that perhaps..?

~

[Never]

I say bomb them heavily each month.

I don't see why we need these companies at all. The reason for cruelty usually is money. Old fashioned furriers didn't (usually) behave in such ways; save for the exceptional sicko; in which case just eliminate him.

Onus you're idea is a good one, but there is not enough interest to do such a thing. As it is, animal experimentation labs are hardly ever inspected if at all. It is a "do whatever you want" type of deal in all animal related industry. It must come down; but sadly the only realistic way to do this is through boycott; as people would "die" without their precious comforts. Education is king here in any case.

[Idolfan]

I think animal cruelty is a really terrible thing but sometimes it's important for scientific and medicinal study, which from what I've heard can same tousands of lives. From what people are saying in the thread however that it's useless anyway I say to hell with it and yes, bomb them heavily each month. I don't know who to trust that's whi I give both opinions :).

[LucidFlanders]

I think animal cruelty is a really terrible thing but sometimes it's important for scientific and medicinal study, which from what I've heard can same tousands of lives. From what people are saying in the thread however that it's useless anyway I say to hell with it and yes, bomb them heavily each month. I don't know who to trust that's whi I give both opinions :).

Maybe in a lab using needles but not what those bafoons(sp) do. You learn nothing when you torture animals, just hear them scream and squeel in pain. What animals feel is the exact same thing people feel so really....if those guys are against human suffering and they make animals suffer they are fuckin big ass hypocrites. Why make an animal suffer? and what makes humans above getting suffered when we are the main reason for suffering in the first place. I'm not going to say we don't suffer, we easily suffer FAR more then animals. There really is no difference between human, and animal suffering, just they are defenseless and don't know what's happening, and we do because we are smarter, and more evolved and know these things.
They just know what's happening to them now....massive pain.

Is it so hard to stop suffering worldwide? probably is because it turns people on untill it happens to them. I'm against any suffering...animal, human, insect, mamal, whatever. I tend to feel the pain of the ones suffering because i have been there already and know how it feels, or maybe i havn't been there but i know what suffering feels like.

I eat meat and will continue to eat meat. I know how the world works, you just gotta learn to deal with it and accept it even if you don't agree with it. You may change your life around, but you surely wont change the world, even if these become laws against animal cruelty you will still have some idiots ignoring them and doing it anyway silently. I'm fine with an animal death IF it's quick and painless, same with a human death. Death is part of living, to be against it is to be in denial.

Stop the suffering, do it quick and painless or you should suffer 10x's worse then the one you made suffer. This is why i'm sick of people, with all this bullcrap that goes on when it doesn't even have to. One person can't change the world, but everybody can change the world.

[Mink]

Not for the light-hearted:

I saw a video where they took piglets and ripped their tesicles off without any pain killers :( The mothers had to watch

[O'nus]

I say bomb them heavily each month.

lol, please keep humour in this joke;

That is a very American thing to say. :P

~

[Never]

I would be insulted if not for the wit, lol.

[Jdog]

who cares? if they arent smart enough to run away from mass slaughter houses after watching multiple other animals die then they kind of deserve it

[LucidFlanders]

who cares? if they arent smart enough to run away from mass slaughter houses after watching multiple other animals die then they kind of deserve it
:roll:

[Never]

lmao wtf...

[Tornado Joe]

Didn't watch the video - no interest in it either. You seen one, you seen 'em all.

So far, it looks like everyone is on the same page as far as being against the "suffering" aspect. The gray area lies between the justified suffering and recreational suffering.

Surely I'm not proposing that suffering can be 'justified" - but in the case of lab testing animals, one could make a good argument that "it will save lives". Well sure, but that would imply the life of one creature being more meaningful and important than another.
"We could cure this disease you got, but we'll have to torture a couple of these mice first."
What would your response be then? Honestly.

There's no shame in saying, "go ahead" - because the law of nature (the same law these very same animals adhere to) is survival of the fittest. They would have you killed in a heartbeat to save themselves.
Note: this does not apply to personal or family pets, as they develop an emotional bond and we've all heard stories (http://news.aol.com/story/_a/dog-saves-boy-from-fire-by-biting-foot/20080108075209990001?ncid=NWS00010000000001) about how they lay down their lives for us.

Now, as for the recreational suffering - that is something that (as far as I know) is strictly a human mutation. No other animal kills or tortures for the sport of it. That's where we as a species are separated from all other creatures on earth. All you vegans/vegetarians can do whatever you want to make yourself feel better about not participating in the slaughtering and processing of meat - but you are just as capable of the killing of another living creature as any other human. You'd simply do it as a last resort. We would eat each other (http://www.infoplease.com/spot/donner1.html) to survive if it came down to it.

Killing for food is one thing - but torturing and causing suffering upon another is a psychological malfunction. There is no survival value to it. It's either something done in hate, revenge, or the sickest of purposes - pleasure.

[LucidFlanders]

lmao wtf...


Yeah really, like animals are really going to now what's going on, and that they are next. They just see animals takin away to the factory.
It would be like gathering people together for some type of flu shot, then what happens behind closed doors we don't now because we aren't there and BAM we are killed, of course it will have to be quick and painless or you will hear screams and GTFOuta there.

[Spartiate]

I think the worst part is those damn orientals who still think that a tiger's penis is an aphrodisiac. I don't want to be racist or anything, but these people have no conception of wildlife conservation. To them, the rarer and more exotic an animal is, the more valuable it is and the more justified you are to kill it.

[Xox]

who cares? if they arent smart enough to run away from mass slaughter houses after watching multiple other animals die then they kind of deserve it

Are you fucking kidding me. No I don't want to go there.

What do you mean deserve it?

One day - you see someone get shot, so you've seen someone get killed. The next day, someone shoots you in the head. So answer this, did you deserve it?

I hope something like this happens to you, so you know exactly how it feels.

[cuddleyperson]

Are you fucking kidding me. No I don't want to go there.

What do you mean deserve it?

One day - you see someone get shot, so you've seen someone get killed. The next day, someone shoots you in the head. So answer this, did you deserve it?

I hope something like this happens to you, so you know exactly how it feels.

.........how's he gonna feel it when he's just been shot in the head?:P

[Xox]

.........how's he gonna feel it when he's just been shot in the head?:P

I'm not here to debate beliefs. :P

But I hope* he would.

[Jdog]

lol hostility. you sound like this vegitarian girl who went to my old school. any time the school served any kind of meat she would flip out and start screaming at the lunch people and trying to disturb the general lunch service.

ile be completley honest when i tell you that i dont give a flying fuck about what happens to animals. if there is a god or karma or anything of that sort the folks that are cruel to animals will get what they deserve. Im content with that thought, excessive animal cruelty is wrong but people always have and always will be cruel to animals beacause animals are a lot easier to abuse than humans.

now im not one of these freaks who is cruel to animals (please dont acuse me of such a horendous act) i realy love my 2 dogs and would tear someone up for injuring them in any intentional way. but that still does not change the fact that i would chose my own life over my pet's life any day. please dont claim though that you wish i would die beacause i dont care about what other people do to animals.

and since ile be a marine at the end of this year it is likley i will be shot at and possibly killed. do i deserve it? maybe i do, but hey someone's gotta bite the bullet and i would only ask that you show me a decent amount of respect should i die. k thx

[Xox]

lol hostility. you sound like this vegitarian girl who went to my old school. any time the school served any kind of meat she would flip out and start screaming at the lunch people and trying to disturb the general lunch service.

ile be completley honest when i tell you that i dont give a flying fuck about what happens to animals. if there is a god or karma or anything of that sort the folks that are cruel to animals will get what they deserve. Im content with that thought, excessive animal cruelty is wrong but people always have and always will be cruel to animals beacause animals are a lot easier to abuse than humans.

now im not one of these freaks who is cruel to animals (please dont acuse me of such a horendous act) i realy love my 2 dogs and would tear someone up for injuring them in any intentional way. but that still does not change the fact that i would chose my own life over my pet's life any day. please dont claim though that you wish i would die beacause i dont care about what other people do to animals.

and since ile be a marine at the end of this year it is likley i will be shot at and possibly killed. do i deserve it? maybe i do, but hey someone's gotta bite the bullet and i would only ask that you show me a decent amount of respect should i die. k thx

I apologize for saying that, after hearing "They kinda deserve it" I flipped.

Whatever the case is, it is one thing to not care for animals, it is another for thinking they deserve to die.

[LucidFlanders]

.........how's he gonna feel it when he's just been shot in the head?:P

He wont feel it, but they can survive it. Most of the time you die, few times you survive but are face fucked for life.

[Universal Mind]

You have no idea how much that video makes my blood boil. That is some of the sickest stuff I have ever seen in my life. I think that video needs to be shown on national television in every country we can get it to play. If the world knew what was really going on, the fur industry would take a big time nose dive, which it damn well deserves and should have.

If the U.S. were to use its power to somehow try to stop this, who all would be against that and start talking about "sovereign nation" and "imposing our will on another country"? When I think of what the Hussein regime was doing to the humans of Iraq, I have images like that. Shit like that has no place in this world, and the entire world should come together to stamp it out. I am so pissed off right now I don't even know what else to say.

[BillyBob]

Welcome to reality.
Animal cruelty was happening before humans even existed. Those Chinese aren't being cruel because they enjoy it, they're just trying to meet their quota so they can go home and feed their families.

Don't be mad at them for doing their best to survive, be mad at our society for making their jobs necessary.

__


If it came down to it I would gladly stomp on a hundred live kitten's heads to feed my offspring. Quit being so self righteous, we have to get our meat and fur from somewhere; its a whole lot cheaper for companies to not give a fuck about how the animal feels. They have to keep their meat/fur cheap or we wouldn't buy from them.

In most foreign countries the money we pay for such services are all that keeps many families alive. I'm sure these PETA bastards would rather have kids whoring themselves off on the street or something.

[Universal Mind]

Welcome to reality.
Animal cruelty was happening before humans even existed. Those Chinese aren't being cruel because they enjoy it, they're just trying to meet their quota so they can go home and feed their families.

Don't be mad at them for doing their best to survive, be mad at our society for making their jobs necessary.

__


If it came down to it I would gladly stomp on a hundred live kitten's heads to feed my offspring. Quit being so self righteous, we have to get our meat and fur from somewhere; its a whole lot cheaper for companies to not give a fuck about how the animal feels. They have to keep their meat/fur cheap or we wouldn't buy from them.

In most foreign countries the money we pay for such services are all that keeps many families alive. I'm sure these PETA bastards would rather have kids whoring themselves off on the street or something.

It is not that they are killing animals. It is that they are beating, stomping, and skinning them while they are alive and putting them in absolutely unbearable pain. There is no excuse for it. Torturing the shit out of animals is not the only job in China. I'm not buying it.

And I do blame the American companies for paying for that evil for their own gains. I also blame the fur wearers who know it is going on.

[Aneas]

I have been vegan for the past six months. I consider it to be vegan in relation to the fact that I have eliminated all dairy from my diet as well as maintaining a lifestyle that does not contribute to the subjugation of other animals. I realize that it is virtually impossible to completely to do this 100% but I feel positive about the effort that I do make.

[Serkat]

I have been vegan for the past six months. I consider it to be vegan in relation to the fact that I have eliminated all dairy from my diet as well as maintaining a lifestyle that does not contribute to the subjugation of other animals. I realize that it is virtually impossible to completely to do this 100% but I feel positive about the effort that I do make.This is a position that I respect very much since we all should do our best to live according to our values and make the world a better place in the areas we feel there is the most need in.
However, some vegans claim that their being vegan is not just an ethical lifestyle choice but one that is ethically mandatory for everyone, based on animal rights theories, despite differing sets of values. I am glad that you are not one of them, or seem not to be.

[Aneas]

This is a position that I respect very much since we all should do our best to live according to our values and make the world a better place in the areas we feel there is the most need in.
However, some vegans claim that their being vegan is not just an ethical lifestyle choice but one that is ethically mandatory for everyone, based on animal rights theories, despite differing sets of values. I am glad that you are not one of them, or seem not to be.

Thanks Korittke. I believe that how you live your life should be a personal choice. Although it may not compliment my lifestyle I respect the individual choice of each person. If you met me the only way that you would know I am a vegan is by asking me.

[Never]

Quit being so self righteous, we have to get our meat and fur from somewhere; its a whole lot cheaper for companies to not give a fuck about how the animal feels. They have to keep their meat/fur cheap or we wouldn't buy from them.

....as a result of ignorance. How convenient it is to just assume their is no alternative. Do you really think that people, given the knowledge that they lack about the situation, would approve? Of course not.

That aside, I find it surprising that you don't see how greed is not a good thing. These companies are not putting food on the table; this is avarice, not survival. Small farmers make a good living without selling themselves to greed.

[LucidFlanders]

Welcome to reality.
Animal cruelty was happening before humans even existed. Those Chinese aren't being cruel because they enjoy it, they're just trying to meet their quota so they can go home and feed their families.

Don't be mad at them for doing their best to survive, be mad at our society for making their jobs necessary.

__


If it came down to it I would gladly stomp on a hundred live kitten's heads to feed my offspring. Quit being so self righteous, we have to get our meat and fur from somewhere; its a whole lot cheaper for companies to not give a fuck about how the animal feels. They have to keep their meat/fur cheap or we wouldn't buy from them.

In most foreign countries the money we pay for such services are all that keeps many families alive. I'm sure these PETA bastards would rather have kids whoring themselves off on the street or something.


Well sure people gotta make a living and feed their children and themselves etc but it's not "filling their quota" when they makme it suffer as much as possible. THEY SKIN IT ALIVE! yes, ALIVE! what makes it right to abuse like this? did you see the dogs face all bloody with no skin, he/she was still blinking showing the bloody skull with the eyes almost out...people are not superior over anything, we cause more of this to animals/people then animals do this to eachother or people.
Making anything suffer animal, human, whatever is obviously wrong and not making a living, it's called being an asshat and i could care less if they are doing it to survive, there is such a thing as taking your job to far. This is exactly taking your job to far....why make it suffer instead of kill it? they beat the hell out of it and let it suffer, THEN THEY DO IT AGAIN! that's not doing a job, that's being a sick individual, too bloody sick. You want meat/fur, fine kill whatever it is right away, you want the full fur? put the animal to sleep then and if you can't afford it then leave your job for people who can afford it.

[Xox]

I have been vegan for the past six months. I consider it to be vegan in relation to the fact that I have eliminated all dairy from my diet as well as maintaining a lifestyle that does not contribute to the subjugation of other animals. I realize that it is virtually impossible to completely to do this 100% but I feel positive about the effort that I do make.

Good luck. ;)

Well sure people gotta make a living and feed their children and themselves etc but it's not "filling their quota" when they makme it suffer as much as possible. THEY SKIN IT ALIVE! yes, ALIVE! what makes it right to abuse like this? did you see the dogs face all bloody with no skin, he/she was still blinking showing the bloody skull with the eyes almost out...people are not superior over anything, we cause more of this to animals/people then animals do this to eachother or people.
Making anything suffer animal, human, whatever is obviously wrong and not making a living, it's called being an asshat and i could care less if they are doing it to survive, there is such a thing as taking your job to far. This is exactly taking your job to far....why make it suffer instead of kill it? they beat the hell out of it and let it suffer, THEN THEY DO IT AGAIN! that's not doing a job, that's being a sick individual, too bloody sick. You want meat/fur, fine kill whatever it is right away, you want the full fur? put the animal to sleep then and if you can't afford it then leave your job for people who can afford it.


Exactly.

Billy, there is a difference between killing an animal for food, and torturing the shit out of it. I hope you see the difference.

[O'nus]

Regarding vegans:

"What pisses me off so much about this phrase is the sheer narrow-mindedness of these stuck up vegetarian assholes. You think you're saving the world by eating a tofu-burger and sticking to a diet of grains and berries? Well here's something that not many vegetarians know (or care to acknowledge): every year millions of animals are killed by wheat and soy bean combines during harvesting season (source (http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/grill.html#SOURCE)). Oh yeah, go on and on for hours about how all of us meat eaters are going to hell for having a steak, but conveniently ignore the fact that each year millions of mice, rabbits, snakes, skunks, possums, squirrels, gophers and rats are ruthlessly murdered as a direct result of YOUR dieting habits. What's that? I'm sorry, I don't hear any more elitist banter from you pompous cocks. Could it be because your shit has been RUINED?

That's right: the gloves have come off. The vegetarian response to this embarrassing fact is "well, at least we're not killing intentionally." So let me get this straight; not only are animals ruthlessly being murdered as a direct result of your diet, but you're not even using the meat of the animals YOU kill? At least we're eating the animals we kill (and although we also contribute to the slaughter of animals during grain harvesting, keep in mind that we're not the ones with a moral qualm about it), not just leaving them to rot in a field somewhere. That makes you just as morally repugnant than any meat-eater any day. Not only that, but you're killing free-roaming animals, not animals that were raised for feed. Their bodies get mangled in the combine's machinery, bones crushed, and you have the audacity to point fingers at the meat industry for humanely punching a spike through a cow's neck? If you think that tofu burgers come at no cost to animals or the environment, guess again.


Even if combines aren't used to harvest your food, you think that buying fruits and vegetables (organic or otherwise) is any better? How do you think they get rid of bugs that eat crops in large fields? You think they just put up signs and ask parasites to politely go somewhere else? Actually, I wouldn't put that suggestion past you hippies. One of the methods they use to get rid of pests is to introduce a high level of predators for each particular prey, which wreaks all sorts of havoc on the natural balance of predator/prey populations--causing who knows what kind of damage to the environment. Oops, did I just expose you moral-elitists for being frauds? Damndest thing. A number of people have pointed out that the amount of grain grown to feed animals for slaughter every year is greater than the amount of grain grown for humans. So I guess the amount of grain grown for human consumption suddenly becomes negligible and we can conveniently ignore the fact that animals are still ruthlessly murdered either way because of your diet, right? Not to mention that the majority of grain grown for livestock is tough as rocks, coarse, and so low-grade that it's only fit for animal consumption in the first place.

Enjoy your tofu, murderers."

Read the article in its entirety here:
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=grill

~

[Aneas]

A stereotypical response. Although I am a vegan, I have been a martial artist for 32 years, as well as a law enforcement tactics and firearms instructor, and I am confident that if I met the author of that article I would soundly fuck them up. However, since I am of a kinder, gentler mindset I will not respond in kind to their ranting.

[O'nus]

A stereotypical response. Although I am a vegan, I have been a martial artist for 32 years, as well as a law enforcement tactics and firearms instructor, and I am confident that if I met the author of that article I would soundly fuck them up. However, since I am of a kinder, gentler mindset I will not respond in kind to their ranting.

I thought it would be good for a laugh.

However, a bit non sequitor, don't you think? :p

~

[kichu]

O'nus - why???? I HATE that website. That guy is such an idiot. I almost think he actually thinks he's making valid points. WHY is this guys page everywhere????

Drives me nuts.

[Mes Tarrant]

I found it amusing. :lol: I also enjoyed it because he came up with a lot of good arguments!

What annoys me to tears is The Attack of the One-Phrased Losers, such as: "Eating meat is BADDDDD!!!" or "VEGANS SUCK!!!" :roll: Honestly. Noooo point to those types of remarks unless they are backed up with some logical (and for christ's sake, not overly emotional) arguments. I've been seeing SO much of this around the place lately.

End Rant. :P

[Serkat]

O'nus - why???? I HATE that website. That guy is such an idiot. I almost think he actually thinks he's making valid points. WHY is this guys page everywhere????

Drives me nuts.First of all, Maddox is a great author and if you fail to see the point of his site, I feel sorry for you.

You have to see that, although presented in an ill-minded exaggerated manner, Maddox does present valid points in basically all of his articles.

Veganism as an ethical lifestyle choice has failed. It is merely a lifestyle form, not more or less worthy than any other. It is purely dogmatic and bears no resemblance to the facts of reality. There are many many products that directly infringe animal rights or cannot be produced without animals. One such example would be copper. Another would be electricity. Yet another would be food harvested by machinery. Also, by using the technology of housing, you directly support a technology that literally leads to millions of deaths of innocent birds each year.

[O'nus]

O'nus - why???? I HATE that website. That guy is such an idiot. I almost think he actually thinks he's making valid points. WHY is this guys page everywhere????

Drives me nuts.


A stereotypical response. Although I am a vegan, I have been a martial artist for 32 years, as well as a law enforcement tactics and firearms instructor, and I am confident that if I met the author of that article I would soundly fuck them up. However, since I am of a kinder, gentler mindset I will not respond in kind to their ranting.


I noticed that neither took a real stance or structure a response to the arguments. Even Hitler is capable of making a decent argument. I am sorry but appealing to the credibility of someone does not take away from their valid arguments because you would be committing to an ad hominem fallacy.

Perhaps a vegan or vegetarian could actually respond to the valid arguments propounded by Maddox instead of just blatantly insulting him or threatening him?

~

[O'nus]

What annoys me to tears is The Attack of the One-Phrased Losers, such as: "Eating meat is BADDDDD!!!" or "VEGANS SUCK!!!" :roll: Honestly. Noooo point to those types of remarks unless they are backed up with some logical (and for christ's sake, not overly emotional) arguments. I've been seeing SO much of this around the place lately.

End Rant. :P

I have to note that I agree with this. I think he just does it for the humour. If you met him in real life, you'd see that he is really just a nerdy guy with a calm demeanour. Also, his very first posts were much more calm. I think people like his "freak outs" so he only appealed to it, really.

~

[Aneas]

[/i]

I noticed that neither took a real stance or structure a response to the arguments. Even Hitler is capable of making a decent argument. I am sorry but appealing to the credibility of someone does not take away from their valid arguments because you would be committing to an ad hominem fallacy.

Perhaps a vegan or vegetarian could actually respond to the valid arguments propounded by Maddox instead of just blatantly insulting him or threatening him?

~

Maddox is assuming that the nature of being vegan or vegetarian automatically equates to harboring negative feelings toward meat eaters. My choice to be vegan is of a personal nature and frankly I don't give a shit about what other people eat.

[O'nus]

Maddox is assuming that the nature of being vegan or vegetarian automatically equates to harboring negative feelings toward meat eaters. My choice to be vegan is of a personal nature and frankly I don't give a shit about what other people eat.

No, he said that because there are vegans and vegetarians, there had to be tofu companies and other institutions to be developed in order to satisfy those peoples needs. These institutions, and because of these peoples choices, actually cause additional problems, not only to the environment, but to animals and byproducts used in order to produce everything required for these lifestyle choices.

For example, tofu:
- Farm needs to be developed for tofu
- Distributor needs to be developed to deliver tofu
- Grocery stores or natural stores need to be developed to sell tofu

Each has residual effects that invariably harm animals (ie. land taken up in order to develop these institutions.)

I would like to note that I did not quote or mention anything about how vegetarians "hate" meat-eaters.

Edit:
Of course, if you choose to be vegetarian simply because you think its healthier and better for you (in other words, has nothing to do with harming animals) - then that sounds good to me. I have no arguments against that.

~

[Tornado Joe]

Someone once told me that every time you masturbate, a kitten dies. :paranoid:

[O'nus]

Someone once told me that every time you masturbate, a kitten dies. :paranoid:

Way to go Joe. You went and committed genocide.

~

[Tornado Joe]

Yah, and single-handedly too! :bigteeth:

[LucidFlanders]

Someone once told me that every time you masturbate, a kitten dies. :paranoid:


Then i have killed alot of kittens. RIP little ones. :(

Atleast they didn't suffer.

[Spartiate]

Atleast they didn't suffer.

How do you know?

[LucidFlanders]

How do you know?


I did it carefully.:D

[Universal Mind]

Someone once told me that every time you masturbate, a kitten dies. :paranoid:

No, just an innocent nation of helpless sperm cells.

[NeAvO]

No, just an innocent nation of helpless sperm cells.Hrm sperm cells or kittens, what's worse? :o

[AmazeO XD]

Look, not to be a dick or anything but...

Animals are not humans. I can't help but say it. Yes, animals should not be tortured.. but look at it from a buisness standpoint. Fur is a buisness, animals must be killed in order for it to happen. What are you suggesting they do? Inject them? Gas them?

Both of those choices are highly expensive, and would eliminate most of the profit that these companies make. So, yeah.. Peta can save as many fucking bunnies as they want, but I doubt a bunny is gonna hop up and try to save them if they are in life threatening situations.

So, look at it if you were in their shoes. It's your job. You do what you need to and go home.

[O'nus]

Animals are not humans. I can't help but say it. Yes, animals should not be tortured.. but look at it from a buisness standpoint. Fur is a buisness, animals must be killed in order for it to happen. What are you suggesting they do? Inject them? Gas them?

Both of those choices are highly expensive, and would eliminate most of the profit that these companies make. So, yeah.. Peta can save as many fucking bunnies as they want, but I doubt a bunny is gonna hop up and try to save them if they are in life threatening situations.

So, look at it if you were in their shoes. It's your job. You do what you need to and go home.

This would be the justification for killing animals. However, there is no need to make them suffer. For example, there is no need to skin an animal alive and then watch it bleed to death. A simply cut to the neck will finish it and it can be done before the skinning.

It is not expense to stab a knife into the reticular system of an animal (similar to the back of the neck for a human). It is quick, easy, and inexpensive. You can kill a leapard by simply jabbing a knife into the same point on the backside of their neck. It is the fastest and most painless way to kill them. So why not do it rather than making them suffer?

Yes, they need to be killed for the business, just like we need to kill to eat. Is there any sense in killing any other way then?

Better yet, it is also more of a challenge to kill something in such a way. It is what the ninjutsu's practice; the most fastest and painless way of killing. More honorable and simply more of a challenge. Any moron can hack away at another thing.

Do you see my point..?

What do you think...?

~

[AmazeO XD]

Ah. A brilliant point you have made O'Nus. I stand corrected. I should have thought about the ninja stab you have spoken of.

I correct myself. Yus, the ninja stab in the back would work for the animals. I am wrong.

[O'nus]

Hey, it sounds silly, but it truthfully works.

~

[Never]

So, look at it if you were in their shoes. It's your job. You do what you need to and go home.

No. I quit. Better yet, if I were in such a business I would not be driven by greed, but would rather work in order to sustain myself.

In fact, in my not-so-humble opinion, if you do things that go against what you believe for a job then you are a coward, and if you value profit over minimal moral obligations then you are a scumbag. Even if all else fails and you must kill more animals than necessary in order to have a bigger TV, then it's ninja stab FTW, and the hope that we never cross paths.

Do what I need to? Where do you get that assumption? What is my need? Superfluous existence?

[O'nus]

No. I quit. In fact, in my not-so-humble opinion, if you do things that go against what you believe for a job then you are a coward, and if you value profit over minimal moral obligations then you are a scumbag.

I concur.

~

[LucidFlanders]

Look, not to be a dick or anything but...

Animals are not humans. I can't help but say it. Yes, animals should not be tortured.. but look at it from a buisness standpoint. Fur is a buisness, animals must be killed in order for it to happen. What are you suggesting they do? Inject them? Gas them?

Both of those choices are highly expensive, and would eliminate most of the profit that these companies make. So, yeah.. Peta can save as many fucking bunnies as they want, but I doubt a bunny is gonna hop up and try to save them if they are in life threatening situations.

So, look at it if you were in their shoes. It's your job. You do what you need to and go home.

Animals feel pain the same way humans do, therefore they cannot be THAT different. If you think "who cares they are animals" you must be for slavery..."big whoop they are slaves". If i skinned you alive and tortured you before i even got started like they abuse these animals before they even start, how do i know? well, take a look at what their doing before they skin the animals...they are brutally torturing them, and you are not against it? i said this 2 times before in this thread but...why are humans so different then animals like you think? because we are evolved more? the things we can do that they can't? What is it that makes us more special??? most of torture is started by humans, humans torture humans in war whent hey are captured, then i guess humans are more special then humans so it's OK to do what they are doing because it's war, right? NO, it's not. What they are doing is NOT right. People can say whatever they want about perspective of what is right but there is only 1 right, and 1 wrong and it's common sense all around the world what is right, and what is wrong.

With this said you said it's a busisness for furs, that's true and sad but maybe it can be a busisness to skin people alive? afterall maybe a human skin coat can keep people warm and dry. Let me guess...you disprove of this happening? but you approve of animals getting skinned alive? WHAT'S SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND THIS IS WRONG???? Also, there is racism, slavery, etc around the world and we ALL know it's wrong yet when it vomes to skinning animals alive so people can have fur coats is right because who cares they are just animals???????????

If it's my job i don't enjoy making animals suffer, there are other jobs out there that pay you to survive, it's not like this is the only job the extreme poor can get.

BTW this is to everyone who thinks this is is right, and are against things that happen to humans, i'm just venting to those people, not you since you're against torturing them.

edit- BTW i'm not into peta, nor into those save starving people companys...i know from my sister since she did that what they do, they barely get any of your money as the company takes almost all of it, and keep bugging you to no living end, even if you wanna stop. Peta is probably the same, as are those lame telemarketers.

[LucidFlanders]

No. I quit. Better yet, if I were in such a business I would not be driven by greed, but would rather work in order to sustain myself.

In fact, in my not-so-humble opinion, if you do things that go against what you believe for a job then you are a coward, and if you value profit over minimal moral obligations then you are a scumbag. Even if all else fails and you must kill more animals than necessary in order to have a bigger TV, then it's ninja stab FTW, and the hope that we never cross paths.

Do what I need to? Where do you get that assumption? What is my need? Superfluous existence?

What if you eat meat, work at a grocery store, and against the torturing of animals? i eat meat, and work at a grocery store, but against torturing animals. I wont eat a human, but not because i'm a human, because it's my own kind. I eat meat, bacon, and stuff but i wont be tasting a human unless of course it's to die or survive.

[AmazeO XD]

Animals feel pain the same way humans do, therefore they cannot be THAT different. If you think "who cares they are animals" you must be for slavery..."big whoop they are slaves". If i skinned you alive and tortured you before i even got started like they abuse these animals before they even start, how do i know? well, take a look at what their doing before they skin the animals...they are brutally torturing them, and you are not against it? i said this 2 times before in this thread but...why are humans so different then animals like you think? because we are evolved more? the things we can do that they can't? What is it that makes us more special??? most of torture is started by humans, humans torture humans in war whent hey are captured, then i guess humans are more special then humans so it's OK to do what they are doing because it's war, right? NO, it's not. What they are doing is NOT right. People can say whatever they want about perspective of what is right but there is only 1 right, and 1 wrong and it's common sense all around the world what is right, and what is wrong.

With this said you said it's a busisness for furs, that's true and sad but maybe it can be a busisness to skin people alive? afterall maybe a human skin coat can keep people warm and dry. Let me guess...you disprove of this happening? but you approve of animals getting skinned alive? WHAT'S SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND THIS IS WRONG???? Also, there is racism, slavery, etc around the world and we ALL know it's wrong yet when it vomes to skinning animals alive so people can have fur coats is right because who cares they are just animals???????????

If it's my job i don't enjoy making animals suffer, there are other jobs out there that pay you to survive, it's not like this is the only job the extreme poor can get.

BTW this is to everyone who thinks this is is right, and are against things that happen to humans, i'm just venting to those people, not you since you're against torturing them.

edit- BTW i'm not into peta, nor into those save starving people companys...i know from my sister since she did that what they do, they barely get any of your money as the company takes almost all of it, and keep bugging you to no living end, even if you wanna stop. Peta is probably the same, as are those lame telemarketers.


I'm not saying its right, but theres no denying that animals and humans are not the same. When was the last time a bunny pushed you out of the way of a speeding train? Never. So, seriously.

Anyways, this a problem that America has, downright. We're always so fucking busy trying to fix everyone elses problems, that we don't even mind our own. It happens in China. If the Chinese government or law enforcement wants to step in, its up to them. But we are not the presidents of the world. We have one spot. On a map. We need to worry about our own problems, before shit like this.

There are people DYING on the streets. And some idiots are wasting time trying to throw a hissy fit over something they have no control over. I'm not saying its right, I'm just saying its a waste of time.

[Never]

What if you eat meat, work at a grocery store, and against the torturing of animals? i eat meat, and work at a grocery store, but against torturing animals. I wont eat a human, but not because i'm a human, because it's my own kind. I eat meat, bacon, and stuff but i wont be tasting a human unless of course it's to die or survive.

Not sure what you are saying. Perhaps you mean that by working at a grocery store, you may qualify as a "coward" as I put it because you are helping to sell food that was produced at factory farms? Just a guess. If that is what you are asking, I would say no. Yes, you are not helping the matter, but you are not necessarily supporting it either. In fact, no matter where you work, unless it be a really well though out process, you are most likely in a similar situation. Almost all large companies have a hand in evil in some ways.

The point here is that these particular guys are directly involved in the actions, and as such have absolutely no excuse. You can try all you want, but even by owning a computer you indirectly helped to pollute the environment in it's production, etc. It is those who are directly involved and those making policy that need to be instructed. Of course the best way to do this is to boycott; take their profit away. You may not be able to do this yourself, but that does not make you the culprit in any case. Those arguments are used by people with no other.

There are people DYING on the streets. And some idiots are wasting time trying to throw a hissy fit over something they have no control over. I'm not saying its right, I'm just saying its a waste of time.


You should have said this right away. I do not entirely disagree with you. As long as there is an overpopulated, spoiled humanity, there will always be things like this happening; but that does not mean we stop being passionate about them. You can make a priority list of things to be angry about, but the order you see things does not always work that way. That said, I throw a fit about everything unjust, not just this; that is why I am not part of society, it makes me sick. This whole world needs to be torn down and rebuilt.