The stages of Sleep Paralysis

[moonshine]

I think this is a quite important distinction to make, as Its not readily dealt with in much of the guidance. .

Seems to me that there are a number of stages in SP.

1st is getting numb. When I say this I don't mean "absence of feeling". I mean numb like when you have a dead arm, or your mouth after having been to the dentist. That pins and needles feeling.

There is a second stage, which is the tingling wave that tends to come across your body (in me rising from head to toe).
A fairly gentle transitional experience, but not the main event.

Then theres the last stage, which is the traditional shake the bed vibrations which aren't real and you only feel in your as your mind dissconnects completely from your body.

Does this sound about right?

[Adam]

I think it is different for everyone. I personally never feel a numbness, neither do I try to identify stage two as you have put it.

For me to reach SP I tent to focus more on strong tactile sensations, which really only come in one stage. And what about HI/HS? This is all part of reaching SP.

:)

[Thor]

Seems to me that there are a number of stages in SP.

1st is getting numb. When I say this I don't mean "absence of feeling". I mean numb like when you have a dead arm, or your mouth after having been to the dentist. That pins and needles feeling.

There is a second stage, which is the tingling wave that tends to come across your body (in me rising from head to toe).
A fairly gentle transitional experience, but not the main event.

Then theres the last stage, which is the traditional shake the bed vibrations which aren't real and you only feel in your as your mind dissconnects completely from your body.

Does this sound about right?

No, it sounds completely wrong. What you are describing here has absolutely nothing to do with sleep paralysis. The main symptoms of sleep paralysis are:

Inability to move no matter how much you try.
Intense fear.

Additional symptoms are often:

A sensed presence of something evil in the room.
A feeling of being crushed down by a heavy weight.

The following is a typical account of sleep paralysis:
As a college student in 1964, David J. Hufford met the dreaded Night Crusher. Exhausted from a bout of mononucleosis and studying for finals, Hufford retreated one December day to his rented, off-campus room and fell into a deep sleep. An hour later, he awoke with a start to the sound of the bedroom door creaking open--the same door he had locked and bolted before going to bed. Hufford then heard footsteps moving toward his bed and felt an evil presence. Terror gripped the young man, who couldn't move a muscle, his eyes plastered open in fright.

Without warning, the malevolent entity, whatever it was, jumped onto Hufford's chest. An oppressive weight compressed his rib cage. Breathing became difficult, and Hufford felt a pair of hands encircle his neck and start to squeeze. "I thought I was going to die," he says.
Most instances of "sleep paralysis" that you'll hear about from people here on Dream Views are entirely imagined. Also, when it comes to lucid dreaming, sleep paralysis is a red herring.

[Adam]

Also, when it comes to lucid dreaming, sleep paralysis is a red herring.

What makes you say this? There have been numerous occasions where I have awoken in sleep paralysis and entered a lucid dream. And similarly fallen into SP before WILD.

There are two types of sleep paralysis and you only mention one above, hypnopompic paralysis. Are you aware of hypnogogic paralysis, the paralysis experienced before sleep? Doesn't sound like you are. Sleep paralysis as you explained is characterized by temporary paralysis of the body shortly after waking up but a lot of people experience this before going to sleep, which is why you hear people talk of it.

Physiologically, it is closely related to the paralysis that occurs as a natural part of REM sleep. Sleep paralysis occurs when the brain awakes from a REM state, or shortly before entering leaving the person fully aware, but unable to move.

This also leads on to the term hypnogogic imagery (HI), or hypnogogic sounds (HS) which is also experienced when reaching SP before you WILD.

[Shift]

I wouldn't say that 'Intense fear' is a main 'symptom' of sleep paralysis, because if you are informed about what it is, it's exciting. Plenty of people, particularly on this site who are informed about what SP is and how it can be used to aid LDing, look forward to and enjoy SP experiences. It varies between people and between individual experiences. Sometimes I get vibrations. Sometimes I fall. Sometimes I hear or see things. Sometimes I just can't move. The majority of the time I don't even notice that I'm in sleep paralysis and I just zonk out for that sleep period, so I wouldn't presume to say that I could define all of the stages, even if they did hold steady from one experience of SP to the next. But they don't. So there is no way to define them like that. It's entirely too subjective of an experience and too random. You could keep track of your personal SP experiences, and note that that is the order it always occurs in, but that's definitely not the strict way that SP goes. Even when WILDing you don't necessarily experience the presence of SP.

[Thor]

What makes you say this? There have been numerous occasions where I have awoken in sleep paralysis and entered a lucid dream. And similarly fallen into SP before WILD.

Maybe I should clarify: if you are one of the few people who really get sleep paralysis, it's great if you can turn it to your advantage and initiate lucid dreams from it. But if you are not one of those people, which is true for the majority, it's just stupid to seek this experience, because it's fully possible to WILD without it.

There are two types of sleep paralysis and you only mention one above, hypnopompic paralysis. Are you aware of hypnogogic paralysis, the paralysis experienced before sleep? Doesn't sound like you are. Sleep paralysis as you explained is characterized by temporary paralysis of the body shortly after waking up but a lot of people experience this before going to sleep, which is why you hear people talk of it.

No, that's not entirely correct. The real distinction is not hypnagogic versus hypnopompic but common sleep paralysis versus hallucinatory sleep paralysis. Also, sleep paralysis most often occurs when waking up and rarely when falling asleep.

Furthermore, sleep paralysis of any kind is relatively rare. One particular study says:
To further examine the incidence of sleep paralysis, the responses of 80 first-year medical students, 16.25% had experienced predormital, postdormital, or both types of sleep paralysis. These episodes occurred infrequently-- only once or twice for most of these students.

So 16.25% had experienced SP maybe one or two times. Compare that with Dream Views where everyone and his brother claims to have "sleep paralysis" almost every night. I call BS.

Physiologically, it is closely related to the paralysis that occurs as a natural part of REM sleep. Sleep paralysis occurs when the brain awakes from a REM state, or shortly before entering leaving the person fully aware, but unable to move.

Yeah, I know the theory. Though if that happens, there is clearly something wrong with you.

This also leads on to the term hypnogogic imagery (HI), or hypnogogic sounds (HS) which is also experienced when reaching SP before you WILD.

Hypnagogic hallucinations are perfectly normal and do not depend in any way on sleep paralysis.

[Thor]

I wouldn't say that 'Intense fear' is a main 'symptom' of sleep paralysis, because if you are informed about what it is, it's exciting. Plenty of people, particularly on this site who are informed about what SP is and how it can be used to aid LDing, look forward to and enjoy SP experiences. It varies between people and between individual experiences.

My theory is a more cyncial one. I think people have been reading a lot of BS about "sleep paralysis" here, and then when they go to sleep and pay attention to the sensations in their bodies, they call those sensations, whatever they are, "sleep paralysis".

Sometimes I get vibrations. Sometimes I fall. Sometimes I hear or see things. Sometimes I just can't move. The majority of the time I don't even notice that I'm in sleep paralysis [...]

That's clearly contradictory: it's impossible to be in sleep paralysis without knowing it.

Even when WILDing you don't necessarily experience the presence of SP.

Ditto: if you don't experience SP you don't have it. Sleep paralysis depends on your experiencing it. If you don't understand this you don't understand what sleep paralysis is.

[adraw]

Maybe I should clarify: if you are one of the few people who really get sleep paralysis, it's great if you can turn it to your advantage and initiate lucid dreams from it. But if you are not one of those people, which is true for the majority, it's just stupid to seek this experience, because it's fully possible to WILD without it.



No, that's not entirely correct. The real distinction is not hypnagogic versus hypnopompic but common sleep paralysis versus hallucinatory sleep paralysis. Also, sleep paralysis most often occurs when waking up and rarely when falling asleep.

Furthermore, sleep paralysis of any kind is relatively rare. One particular study says:
To further examine the incidence of sleep paralysis, the responses of 80 first-year medical students, 16.25% had experienced predormital, postdormital, or both types of sleep paralysis. These episodes occurred infrequently-- only once or twice for most of these students.
So 16.25% had experienced SP maybe one or two times. Compare that with Dream Views where everyone and his brother claims to have "sleep paralysis" almost every night. I call BS.



Yeah, I know the theory. Though if that happens, there is clearly something wrong with you.



Hypnagogic hallucinations are perfectly normal and do not depend in any way on sleep paralysis.


Maybe i did not understood well. I always thought, that sleep paralysis is mind awake, body asleep state. Which happens every night. It seems you are talking about the experience of some people also "unfortunately" called sleep paralysis. I would name the episode those people have a sleep paralysis shutdown malfunction or somehow like that. Normally sleep paralysis ends just before the dream ends and starts long after you fall unconscious.

I have experienced sleep paralysis after not sleeping really much and it was really difficult to move my muscles at all.
Still. Under normal conditions i didnt experience sleep paralysis as described even when having direct (and wery gentle) transition from dream into waking state. This only leads me to conclusion... Well maybe under normal conditions i may move my body if i want to :D

[Thor]

Maybe i did not understood well. I always thought, that sleep paralysis is mind awake, body asleep state. Which happens every night.

Are you perhaps referring to REM atonia? This means that the skeletal muscles are paralyzed during REM sleep. However, the REM sleep phase does not start until at least 15 minutes after falling asleep. If it occurs any earlier than this it's called sleep onset REM (SOREM), and SOREM has only been observed in narcoleptic subjects.

It seems you are talking about the experience of some people also "unfortunately" called sleep paralysis.

No, I'm using the term as it is used by the medical and scientific communities.

I have experienced sleep paralysis after not sleeping really much and it was really difficult to move my muscles at all.
Still. Under normal conditions i didnt experience sleep paralysis as described even when having direct (and wery gentle) transition from dream into waking state. This only leads me to conclusion... Well maybe under normal conditions i may move my body if i want to :D

If you don't even try to move your body, you can't be in sleep paralysis. The very first test is that you have tried and failed.

[mindwalker]

Are you perhaps referring to REM atonia? This means that the skeletal muscles are paralyzed during REM sleep.


Yes, this is what is typically ment with SP here. It is the paralysis during the REM sleep, hence "sleep paralysis", or SP. If you are lucid, you are also aware that you can't move your body.

However, the REM sleep phase does not start until at least 15 minutes after falling asleep. If it occurs any earlier than this it's called sleep onset REM (SOREM), and SOREM has only been observed in narcoleptic subjects.


It is perfectly normal to wake up at night and fall a sleep again, directly continuing the dream state, also being paralysed about immediately. Hence it is possible to stay aware of your bodily sensations and know when the paralysis kicks in. No need to be narcoleptic for this.

No, I'm using the term as it is used by the medical and scientific communities.


99% of that community has never been lucid. IMO it's rather pointless to try to stick to the (lacking) strict medical terms here.

If you don't even try to move your body, you can't be in sleep paralysis. The very first test is that you have tried and failed.

IF you LD, you will eventually try to move your body, and your dream body moves instead. Again, if you are lucid, you know that your physical body is paralysed. Physiologically you might be in the same state than anyone who experiences "Sleep Paralysis", but since you do not fear it, you would not report it as "Sleep Paralysis" in a medical observation, as your experience would not match the required definition.

So it seems your definition depends on the subject being ignorant of lucid dreaming and the related bodily states. Not very useful at Dream Views :D

[John11]

So 16.25% had experienced SP maybe one or two times. Compare that with Dream Views where everyone and his brother claims to have "sleep paralysis" almost every night. I call BS.

When you aren't trying to achieve SP or be more aware while you sleep, then of course you are less likely to experience it. I only experienced SP twice before I joined DV 3 weeks ago, but since then, I've experienced SP three times (once upon trying to WILD and twice when waking up from a dream). I do agree that some people here probably mistake somethings for SP that aren't really SP though.



1st is getting numb. When I say this I don't mean "absence of feeling". I mean numb like when you have a dead arm, or your mouth after having been to the dentist. That pins and needles feeling.

There is a second stage, which is the tingling wave that tends to come across your body (in me rising from head to toe).
A fairly gentle transitional experience, but not the main event.

Then theres the last stage, which is the traditional shake the bed vibrations which aren't real and you only feel in your as your mind disconnects completely from your body.


My first stage is a numbness, but it's definitely not associated with a pins and needles feeling. It's more of a feeling that I can't feel my body being there anymore. It's most noticeable in my hands and feet. I can usually still notice my chest, but not as much.

The second stage for me is the same, but mine is from toe to head and some popping sounds in my ears when it reaches my head.

I've never experienced the last stage you mention though.

[moonshine]

My first stage is a numbness, but it's definitely not associated with a pins and needles feeling. It's more of a feeling that I can't feel my body being there anymore. It's most noticeable in my hands and feet. I can usually still notice my chest, but not as much.

Its not like that for me. When you have a local anesthetic (like at the dentist) and your mouth is "numb" we still "feel" something, even if its the absence your describing. Its that kind of tingle im talking about.
Not uncomfortable, but still weird.

When I awoke from a lucid dream, without moving, I immediately notices my hands, feet feeling this way. Which is the same was I feel eventually when I try to WILD. This can't be a coincidence.


The second stage for me is the same, but mine is from toe to head and some popping sounds in my ears when it reaches my head.


I meant toe to head too. Rising from toe to head.
Is this just a kind of gentle popping in yours ears. I think I've felt that too.


I've never experienced the last stage you mention though.

I guess you're saying that after the initial wave hits you then able to dip into a dream. Am I right?

I've definately felt both. The initial rising tingle, then a much more violent wave (which seems to be to be the one described as SP).
I've discussed this 1st and second stage wave on another threads.
There are others who corroborate this experience. http://www.dreamviews.com/community/showthread.php?p=925539#post925539

I understand that its different for all of us. I also understand that you can ignore the body by concentrating internally. Nevertheless Laberge does describe concentrating on the body as a valid way of inducing WILD..no doubt why many try this method.

All I'm trying to do is ascertain if there is a commonality to the feelings which can be expected when SP comes on.

Others have queried this on other threads. All to often I read a comment like
"LOL thats not SP. Believe me you will know when you hit SP".
Thats all well and good, but knowing roughly what to expect on the way there is half the battle.

[moonshine]

No, it sounds completely wrong.


Thanks for responding Thor, but I have to disagree. You may be too quick to
dismiss what I've said. I'm not making this stuff up. Theses are genuine feelings I have encountered whilst trying to WILD. Others have detailed similar experiences on other threads.

OK, so I used the term stages of sleep paralysis.
Maybe what I mean is the stages on the way too sleep paralysis.
But this seems like a semantic debate to me.

No, it sounds completely wrong. What you are describing here has absolutely nothing to do with sleep paralysis. The main symptoms of sleep paralysis are:


I think this is a very particular kind of SP. I've found myself sluggish and hard to move, but never found it impossible to move. Nor have I been visited by any imaginary ghouls. (Though I fully beleive this can happen)

The WILD guides say, you enter SP and then you dream. They don't say you will always encounter great fear and hallucinations.

For what its worth, I don't think I've ever managed full SP.
I've certainlly not yet been able to WILD into a dream.

But I would like to get more opinions and details of people experiences to see if we can't, even loosely, define the physical/physiological feelings associate with the onset of SP.

[Shift]

Right, people on here often use "sleep paralysis" as an umbrella term, being the paralysis you experience before and right after sleep, including REM atonia while actually asleep, and usually also including any sort of sensation (including 'buzzing' or vibrating, falling, etc.), and hallucinations that often accompany it (w/ the exception of HH, I know I know, a fine line). That's just the way lucid dreaming communities tend to refer to them. Whether or not they are medically inaccurate is irrelevant. For the average lucid dreamer, who knows so little about the human body and neuroscience and neuropsychology but for whom the focus is to achieve lucid dreaming, the term works fine.

This is probably because the majority have read Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming, which is often touted as the "Lucid Dream Bible" and is the source that most people gather their lucid dreaming-related information from. A lot of the information on this site is just distilled from or more loosely based on his book.

So regarding sleep paralysis, Stephen LaBerge says:

"The “sleep paralysis” of REM sleep doesn’t always turn off immediately upon awakening; this is why you may have experienced waking up and not being able to move for a minute. Sleep paralysis can seem a terrifying experience, but actually it is quite harmless, and indeed, can even be useful for inducing lucid dreams (see chapter 4)." – p. 21

"If you focus on your body while falling asleep, you will sometimes notice a condition in which it seems to undergo extreme distortions, or begins to shake with mysterious vibrations, or becomes completely paralyzed. All of these unusual bodily states are related to the process of sleep onset and particularly REM sleep onset.
During REM sleep, as you will recall from chapter 2, all the voluntary muscles of your body are almost completely paralyzed, except for the muscles that move your eyes and those with which you breathe. REM sleep is a psychophysiological state involving the cooperative activity of a number of distinct special-purpose brain systems. For example, independent neural systems cause muscle paralysis, blockade of sensory input, and cortical activation. When these three systems are working together, your brain will be in the state or REM sleep, and you will probably be dreaming.
Sometimes the REM systems don’t turn on or off at the same time. For example, you may awaken partially from REM sleep, before the paralysis system turns off, so that your body is still paralyzed even though you are otherwise awake. Sleep paralysis, as this condition is called, can occur while people are falling asleep (rarely) or waking up (more frequently). If you don’t know what’s happening, your first experience with sleep paralysis can be terrifying. People typically struggle in a fruitless effort to move or to fully wake up. In fact, such emotional panic reactions are completely counterproductive; they are likely to stimulate the limbic (emotional) areas of the brain and cause the REM state to persist.
The fact is that sleep paralysis is harmless. Sometimes when it happens to you, you feel as if you are suffocating or in the presence of a nameless evil. But this is just the way your half-dreaming brain interprets these abnormal conditions: something terrible must be happening!....
Sleep paralysis is not only nothing to be frightened of, it can be something to be sought after and cultivated. Whenever you experience sleep paralysis you are on the threshold of REM sleep. You have, as it were, one foot in the dream state and one in the waking state. Just step over and you’re in the world of lucid dreams. In the following exercises we present several techniques for taking that step.” – p. 108-109

During his WILD Twin Bodies Technique, which has basically been renamed DEILD, he says:

“Now focus your attention on your physical body…notice how your body feels at each point along the way. Watch for signs of strange sensations, vibrations, and distortions of your body image. These are the harbingers of REM sleep paralysis. Eventually you will experience sensations like those described above which will rapidly develop into complete paralysis of your physical body. At this stage you are ready to leave your paralyzed body behind and to enter the dream world in your dream body.” – p.110

He also says himself that one is more likely to WILD in the sleep laboratory, versus while at home, due to the amount of attention and intention one implements regarding attaining a lucid dream. Since sleep paralysis (or pre-sleep paralysis sensations or whatever you want to call them) is the main component to one of his main WILD induction techniques, I don't think it would be a stretch to say that by planning on attaining these states, focusing on these states, and attaining a WILD will likely increase your frequency of experiencing these sleep-paralysis precursors, which, as I've already said, everyone just refers to as 'sleep-paralysis'.

Most people don't spend their lives trying to WILD. Even if they know about it, they don't spend every single time they go to sleep trying to experience these sensations. When you have a community of people, many of whom are dedicating almost every brief awakening to WILD attempts, of course you are going to get people experiencing and documenting them and in much higher frequencies than the average person.

[Thor]

Thanks for responding Thor, but I have to disagree. You may be too quick to
dismiss what I've said. I'm not making this stuff up. Theses are genuine feelings I have encountered whilst trying to WILD. Others have detailed similar experiences on other threads.

Ah, but I don't dismiss anyone's experiences, though I may dismiss their interpretation of those experiences.

OK, so I used the term stages of sleep paralysis.
Maybe what I mean is the stages on the way too sleep paralysis.
But this seems like a semantic debate to me.

Or maybe you mean "on the way to REM atonia".

Anyway, I think you are right that this is a semantic debate, but please don't assume that that makes it irrelevant. As Shift says, it's likely that "sleep paralysis" has become an umbrella term for all kinds of sensations that you have from sleep onset to awakening. Now if this frequently used term now stands for a hodgepodge of different experiences it becomes very hard to communicate precisely about it.

I think this is a very particular kind of SP. I've found myself sluggish and hard to move, but never found it impossible to move. Nor have I been visited by any imaginary ghouls. (Though I fully beleive this can happen)

Well, if you can move it's neither REM atonia in its natural form nor in its runaway sleep paralysis form.

The WILD guides say, you enter SP and then you dream. They don't say you will always encounter great fear and hallucinations.

For what its worth, I don't think I've ever managed full SP.
I've certainlly not yet been able to WILD into a dream.

See, that's the core of the problem. Because of those misleading WILD guides you now believe that you have to "manage SP" in order to WILD. You don't. I and many others have WILDed without experiencing any kind of sleep paralysis.

[moonshine]

Good post Shift.

These are the harbingers of REM sleep paralysis.

Which is fine. So were talking about what leads up to sleep paralysis.
Which brings me back on point.

Are the stages I've noted common/correct?

I have a suspicion that maybe I'm mixing up the initial wave and the numbness.
It might be that its the initial wave which brings on the numbness.

I think the newbies (like me) would like to know more about this, instead for being dismissed by someone with a "Dude, thats not SP. LOL."

[Thor]

Yes, this is what is typically ment with SP here. It is the paralysis during the REM sleep, hence "sleep paralysis", or SP. If you are lucid, you are also aware that you can't move your body.

If you are lucid you must necessarily be in a dream, and if you're in a dream you will feel and control your dream body, not your real body.

It is perfectly normal to wake up at night and fall a sleep again, directly continuing the dream state, also being paralysed about immediately. Hence it is possible to stay aware of your bodily sensations and know when the paralysis kicks in. No need to be narcoleptic for this.

Here you are committing the big mistake of assuming that just because you continue dreaming you would have to be in REM sleep. This is not the case; you can have perfectly fine dreams in sleep stages 1 and 2 as well, including lucid dreams. When you awaken and fall asleep again it takes at least 15 minutes before you reach REM sleep, otherwise it's SOREM.

IF you LD, you will eventually try to move your body, and your dream body moves instead. Again, if you are lucid, you know that your physical body is paralysed.

No, you don't know that until you have actually tried to move your real body. The fact that you are having a lucid dream does not mean that you are in REM sleep. And if you are a normal individual REM atonia occurs exclusively in REM sleep.

So it seems your definition depends on the subject being ignorant of lucid dreaming and the related bodily states. Not very useful at Dream Views :D

Quite to the contrary: your definition depends on pure belief, and that's not very useful on Dream Views. It certainly is of no use to people who want to have lucid dreams.

[Shift]

Are the stages I've noted common/correct?

Thanks,

Still, I don't think that there are discrete stages, or that they remain true. I think it varies by dreamer, and varies by situation. God knows what differences environmental variables alone cause. I don't always experience sleep paralysis precursors (SPP? lol), and the times I have it has varied. Once it was just a strange beeping that may have not even been a hallucination. Once it was intense vibrating throughout my body. Once it was a falling feeling, and that was just pre-sleep. They also didn't progress, it was just one sensation. I get it much more commonly upon waking.

I think the best thing is for people like Thor, who clearly understand a lot of the physiology and neuroscience behind sleep paralysis to provide information in an informative manner. That solves everyone's problem. Thor, you won't have to be aggravated by people not knowing what they are talking about. Everyone else will get a good education.

I think the biggest problem is these stupid tutorials talking about SP incessantly. :roll:

Here's an interesting question: How many of these experiences do you think people are actually going through because of the physiology of sleep, and how much of it is that they have actually entered a dream and are telling themselves to experience hallucinations or vibrations or whatever? Kind of like a lucid orgasm? You can point at your crotch and think orgasm and experience one, it may even be that people are already 'in' a dream and telling themselves to experience vibrations :tongue:

[Thor]

Whether or not they are medically inaccurate is irrelevant. For the average lucid dreamer, who knows so little about the human body and neuroscience and neuropsychology but for whom the focus is to achieve lucid dreaming, the term works fine.

Well, as I wrote in my reply to moonshine, I don't think the term works at all, judging by the large number of people who are asking if they were in sleep paralysis. If this term worked fine everyone would know.

This is probably because the majority have read Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming, which is often touted as the "Lucid Dream Bible" and is the source that most people gather their lucid dreaming-related information from. A lot of the information on this site is just distilled from or more loosely based on his book.

EWLD is indeed the bible on lucid dreaming, but notice the minuscule proportion of EWLD that is devoted to sleep paralysis versus the enormous attention SP receives here on Dream Views.

It is unfortunate, though, the LaBerge uses the term to refer to both the natural REM atonia and the sleep disorder by that name. Likewise the idea that you will enter REM, and hence REM atonia, the second you fall asleep and start dreaming; this is not the case.

Since sleep paralysis (or pre-sleep paralysis sensations or whatever you want to call them) is the main component to one of his main WILD induction techniques, I don't think it would be a stretch to say that by planning on attaining these states, focusing on these states, and attaining a WILD will likely increase your frequency of experiencing these sleep-paralysis precursors, which, as I've already said, everyone just refers to as 'sleep-paralysis'.

Sure, but what if you give "these states" so much focus that you lose sight of the real goal, which was to WILD? I have personally WILDed with no HH at all, and I've read other people's accounts of the same here on Dream Views. If what you're expecting doesn't happen, don't you think that could be a discouragement to you? Personally I would recommend that people try to WILD with an open mind and not expect anything in particular except that they will eventually enter a dream.

[Shift]

Well, as I wrote in my reply to moonshine, I don't think the term works at all, judging by the large number of people who are asking if they were in sleep paralysis. If this term worked fine everyone would know.

Yea, apparently not :( and this thread reveals that to a larger degree than I'd realized. Honestly, the way I feel is that if someone isn't going to be doing basic reading and learn for themselves about these things, sucks for them if they can't lucid properly and waste time trying to get into 'SP' :tongue: On one hand I feel responsible for providing information, but on the other hand these are basic things :roll:


EWLD is indeed the bible on lucid dreaming, but notice the minuscule proportion of EWLD that is devoted to sleep paralysis versus the enormous attention SP receives here on Dream Views.

Bad tutorials. He has one tutorial on using SP to WILD, in his Twin Bodies Technique. Nowhere else, in all of his empirically researched methods, does he really mention SP. People have run rampant with that one and generalized it when they shouldn't have.

It is unfortunate, though, the LaBerge uses the term to refer to both the natural REM atonia and the sleep disorder by that name. Likewise the idea that you will enter REM, and hence REM atonia, the second you fall asleep and start dreaming; this is not the case.

Yeah, he didn't really present the information properly or maybe just didn't take into account how most people don't understand anything about sleep or its stages. I dunno he came out with a new edition recently I think, maybe he did a better job there? Still, I think you ought to write a thread on this. Make yourself a celebrity and inform all of us ignorant at the same time ;)


Sure, but what if you give "these states" so much focus that you lose sight of the real goal, which was to WILD? I have personally WILDed with no HH at all, and I've read other people's accounts of the same here on Dream Views. If what you're expecting doesn't happen, don't you think that could be a discouragement to you? Personally I would recommend that people try to WILD with an open mind and not expect anything in particular except that they will eventually enter a dream.

I think the biggest problem is these stupid tutorials talking about SP incessantly. :roll:

Same here, I have WILDed with no HH or any other sensations. Notably, I don't WILD frequently or easily. And exactly. People lose sight. I actually wrote a ton about that but then I erased before my last post, I figured I should get out while I wasn't making too big a fool of myself. I think most people don't really realize what they are talking about, and yea this losing-sight can lead a lot of people astray. On the same hand, I feel that people should be teaching themselves, reading other sources, and making their own decisions. If they can't even read http://www.dreamviews.com/sleepstages.php or anything more in depth... I don't feel like I should waste my time pitying them. A good DG I know. But people shouldn't be spoon-fed lucid dreaming. So many of them talk about how lucid dreams aren't good if you don't have to work for them- so they should all stand by their words and inform themselves. The fact that people like you have to come here and call us out just proves that :(

[Thor]

Still, I don't think that there are discrete stages, or that they remain true. I think it varies by dreamer, and varies by situation. God knows what differences environmental variables alone cause. I don't always experience sleep paralysis precursors (SPP? lol), and the times I have it has varied. Once it was just a strange beeping that may have not even been a hallucination. Once it was intense vibrating throughout my body. Once it was a falling feeling, and that was just pre-sleep. They also didn't progress, it was just one sensation. I get it much more commonly upon waking.

See Shift, where this SP(P) focus is leading? To nowhere! Here moonshine was expecting a nice sequence of big signposts leading him into the dream, and now you have to inform him that there may not be any at all. What's he gonna do now?

I think the best thing is for people like Thor, who clearly understand a lot of the physiology and neuroscience behind sleep paralysis to provide information in an informative manner. That solves everyone's problem. Thor, you won't have to be aggravated by people not knowing what they are talking about. Everyone else will get a good education.

Well, thanks for your confidence, Shift. I'll keep trying.

Here's an interesting question: How many of these experiences do you think people are actually going through because of the physiology of sleep, and how much of it is that they have actually entered a dream and are telling themselves to experience hallucinations or vibrations or whatever? Kind of like a lucid orgasm? You can point at your crotch and think orgasm and experience one, it may even be that people are already 'in' a dream and telling themselves to experience vibrations :tongue:

Now that's a very interesting idea. Those experiences could simply be the result of suggestion in many cases.

[Shift]

See Shift, where this SP(P) focus is leading? To nowhere! Here moonshine was expecting a nice sequence of big signposts leading him into the dream, and now you have to inform him that there may not be any at all. What's he gonna do now?



Well, thanks for your confidence, Shift. I'll keep trying.



Now that's a very interesting idea. Those experiences could simply be the result of suggestion in many cases.

Haha SPP. Now all I need to do is create an ILD and I'll go down in lucid dreaming history. Ah, the infamy of renaming things to confuse people...

That's what I'm thinking, I've had this sitting in the back of my mind for a while. That it's not even necessarily a 'true' experience, but just an induced experience just as one would summon a person or object into a dream and stimulate the mind into thinking it was perceived when the distal stimulus never existed. Makes you realize how much more irrelevant it is, as the whole point of the Twin Bodies Technique is that the environment never changes and you believe that you are still lying in bed, until the point where you "pull your dream body out of your physical body". So you may not even actually tell when it is that you have entered a dream, and since you are so focused you may just be lying there telling your dream body to vibrate away. All the more reason not to focus on reaching SP.

And also, I'm not kidding when I say you should write a topic about the stages of sleep and all the details, sort out the mess that this general knowledge has become. DV desperately needs people who are knowledgeable and educated about sleeping topics, and if you fit the criteria I would love to read anything you have to write. This biggest problem with these forums is that people aren't required to cite sources. Now I know why they're always bothering me to at school. DV needs a group of peer reviewers to OK posts! :tongue:

[Thor]

And also, I'm not kidding when I say you should write a topic about the stages of sleep and all the details, sort out the mess that this general knowledge has become. DV desperately needs people who are knowledgeable and educated about sleeping topics, and if you fit the criteria I would love to read anything you have to write. This biggest problem with these forums is that people aren't required to cite sources. Now I know why they're always bothering me to at school. DV needs a group of peer reviewers to OK posts! :tongue:

Well, why not. I'll try and write a draft and I'll post it here in a few days, for peer review.

[Shift]

Well, why not. I'll try and write a draft and I'll post it here in a few days, for peer review.

Yay!! :boogie:

[Robot_Butler]

Thor, do you really not understand the OP's question? Or are you purposefully just trying to be difficult?

I think you guys are missing the point. When learning something, especially something specific like WILD, it helps to have a model you can relate to. Signposts, expectations, and a general idea of what to expect can help. It is a model and an aid. Its purpose is to help people learn to have the experience for themselves.

I like when people post their WILD experiences in a sequential way. It forms a narrative that I can relate to in my imagination. I think this thread would have been a whole lot more helpful it everyone posted their sleep paralysis experiences, instead of you making a big stink about the difference between sleep paralysis and REM atonia.

I think you are focusing too much on semantics, and not enough on experience.

[Thor]

Thor, do you really not understand the OP's question? Or are you purposefully just trying to be difficult?

I think I understand what he's asking about, but I also think it may be largely futile given the large individual variations in people's pre-WILD experiences.


I think you guys are missing the point. When learning something, especially something specific like WILD, it helps to have a model you can relate to. Signposts, expectations, and a general idea of what to expect can help. It is a model and an aid. Its purpose is to help people learn to have the experience for themselves.

I like when people post their WILD experiences in a sequential way. It forms a narrative that I can relate to in my imagination. I think this thread would have been a whole lot more helpful it everyone posted their sleep paralysis experiences, instead of you making a big stink about the difference between sleep paralysis and REM atonia.

I think you are focusing too much on semantics, and not enough on experience.

I think I've made my point on the value of clear semantics, but I'll make another one. I've seen posts from people who were scared to WILD because of the paralyzation they would allegedly experience. This is very bad when you consider that such an experience is in fact very unlikely, and there's nothing to be afraid of. Most people will not experience REM atonia nor sleep paralysis. They may infer that they should have it, but it wouldn't be an issue at all if people didn't keep harping on it.

With respect to what you may experience prior to a WILD, i.e., hypnagogic hallucinations, this has been written about ad nauseam in books, dream guides, and posts here on DV. There have been hundreds of threads where people have posted their experiences. Still that doesn't help. People come here every day and ask: "I felt blahblah, was I in sleep paralysis?" As if "sleep paralysis" were the main purpose of the whole exercise. I can understand people's desire for a model and an aid, but the subjective variations are enormous, so there is not much to go on.

[Robot_Butler]

I've seen posts from people who were scared to WILD because of the paralyzation they would allegedly experience. This is very bad when you consider that such an experience is in fact very unlikely, and there's nothing to be afraid of.

I think that may be the explanation for why there are so many SP threads floating around. It makes sense that people have questions about sleep paralysis because they are frightened of it. It is a hot topic, not because people think it is important, but because it is terrifying. They want to discuss their experience with it, or their apprehension of it.

I don't see that as a bad thing. Discussing a frightening experience is a natural way of overcoming the fear.

I know frightening sleep paralysis was what led me to lucid dreaming in the first place. I also know that it is always a crazy experience. Even if it was totally unrelated to lucid dreaming, it is still an altered state of consciousness that many people would be curious about and, therefore seek to experience.

On another, unrelated point,
Here you are committing the big mistake of assuming that just because you continue dreaming you would have to be in REM sleep. This is not the case; you can have perfectly fine dreams in sleep stages 1 and 2 as well, including lucid dreams. When you awaken and fall asleep again it takes at least 15 minutes before you reach REM sleep, otherwise it's SOREM.

...

No, you don't know that until you have actually tried to move your real body. The fact that you are having a lucid dream does not mean that you are in REM sleep. And if you are a normal individual REM atonia occurs exclusively in REM sleep.I think this is a little misleading, and want to clarify. When you WILD, you can actually hold onto your consciousness through the initial phases of sleep. 15 minutes, in your explanation. When you do this, you can experience the entrance into REM sleep, and REM atonia. Therefore, sleep paralysis in WILD is an experience of REM atonia. You are forgetting the very definition of WILD, that you remain conscious through the process.

I think you are confusing 'normal' sleep progression with intentionally 'abnormal' WILD. Most medical research you will find will only addresses the normal progression. They label anything else as a sleep disorder, and, therefore attempt to categorize it separately.

Not to mention the fact that even the medical community uses Sleep Paralysis and Sleep Atonia interchangeably.

Definition of Atonia, REM sleep

Atonia, REM sleep (http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=6177) : A frightening form of paralysis that occurs when a person suddenly finds himself or herself unable to move for a few minutes, most often upon falling asleep or waking up. Commonly called sleep paralysis, the condition is due to an ill-timed disconnection between the brain and the body.
The symptoms of sleep paralysis include sensations of noises, smells, levitation, paralysis, terror, and images of frightening intruders. Once considered very rare, about half of all people are now believed to experience sleep paralysis sometime during their life.
People around here are not using the term outside of its accepted definition.

[Tweek]

Most everything in this thread goes against BillyBobs tech to WILD. You guys are over analyzing it waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much.

[Shift]

Most everything in this thread goes against BillyBobs tech to WILD. You guys are over analyzing it waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much.

I respect Billybob, and I love everything he's written. But using 'SP' isn't the only way to WILD. There are a bunch of different techniques. They don't all need to use 'SP', that's what we're talking about. People who are misled and over analyze what they should be feeling while WILDing when they don't need to be focusing on that at all, and to the point where it may even be causing them problems.

[Snowy Egypt]

Most everything in this thread goes against BillyBobs tech to WILD. You guys are over analyzing it waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much.

Even Bob has made a WILD guide that has no use of SP. So saying that is not really correct.

I think that another reason they make SP threads and ask what it was (If this has been said, then forgive me), is because they don't know what it is. You think the noobs are going to look it up when they experience it for the 1st time? And don't get me wrong; some of them do. But the majority are going to look to others with more experience to help them out. That's just how it goes.

Also, the reason why I think it's talked about almost religiously is because a lot of members find SP to be an amazing experience. Some that have experienced it, myself included, thought it was a bit scary at first, but after it was over thought it was the coolest thing we'd ever felt. Others find it a relaxing, tranquil ride.

Whatever the case, whenever I see someone posting an SP topic, I know there will be a lot of members to help explain. Even when no explanation is needed, it's still fun to discuss individual experiences. And if I feel like I helping or I need a post boost (Shock!!), one click and I direct them to Seeker's tutorial.

Tear apart this post if you want; it's 12:44 AM and I'm sleep deprived. I get risky when I'm sleep deprived. :yawn:

[Thor]

I don't see that as a bad thing. Discussing a frightening experience is a natural way of overcoming the fear.

I know frightening sleep paralysis was what led me to lucid dreaming in the first place. I also know that it is always a crazy experience. Even if it was totally unrelated to lucid dreaming, it is still an altered state of consciousness that many people would be curious about and, therefore seek to experience.

If your starting point is that you're suffering from sleep paralysis it's great that you can turn it to your advantage by initiating lucid dreams from it, but I don't see why anyone would actively seek it.

On another, unrelated point,
I think this is a little misleading, and want to clarify. When you WILD, you can actually hold onto your consciousness through the initial phases of sleep. 15 minutes, in your explanation. When you do this, you can experience the entrance into REM sleep, and REM atonia. Therefore, sleep paralysis in WILD is an experience of REM atonia. You are forgetting the very definition of WILD, that you remain conscious through the process.

I'm not forgetting it. If you have progressed into an REM dream (and REM atonia) you will be long past any HH. By contrast most WILD guides will tell you that these two phenomena occur at the same time or very close in time. Also, when you have entered an REM dream you will (as in any dream) feel and control your dream body instead of your real body, so you won't actually feel paralyzed. If you had known exactly when you entered and exited REM, you could have inferred that you would have to be paralyzed, but you don't even know when you're in REM. Ergo, there is not normally any experience of paralyzation.

[moonshine]

Thor, do you really not understand the OP's question? Or are you purposefully just trying to be difficult?

Thanks for the RB.


When learning something, especially something specific like WILD, it helps to have a model you can relate to. Signposts, expectations, and a general idea of what to expect can help. It is a model and an aid. Its purpose is to help people learn to have the experience for themselves.


This is after all one of the primary purposes of this site.

I think this thread would have been a whole lot more helpful it everyone posted their sleep paralysis experiences, instead of you making a big stink about the difference between sleep paralysis and REM atonia.

I think you are focusing too much on semantics, and not enough on experience.

Quite. It was pretty much agreed that we're refering to the stages leading up to Paralysis. Yet Thors continued banging on that drum.
Constructive comments would be welcomed.

[moonshine]

so, back on track:

The physical feelings which may occur, on the run up to Sleep Paralysis (for those who choose to experience them) might be summed up as follows:-

Stage 1) getting numb. That pins and needles feeling of a local anesthetic.

Stage 2) which is the tingling wave that tends rise from head to toe.

(note I may be mixing 1 and 2 up. Could be 2 brings about 1)

Stage 3) shake the bed vibrations and noises as you enter SP.


Has anyone else experienced a similar chain of events.

[Robot_Butler]

I'm not forgetting it. If you have progressed into an REM dream (and REM atonia) you will be long past any HH. By contrast most WILD guides will tell you that these two phenomena occur at the same time or very close in time. Also, when you have entered an REM dream you will (as in any dream) feel and control your dream body instead of your real body, so you won't actually feel paralyzed. If you had known exactly when you entered and exited REM, you could have inferred that you would have to be paralyzed, but you don't even know when you're in REM. Ergo, there is not normally any experience of paralyzation.

That's not necessarily true. It is the way things normally work, but not when WILDing. When people WILD, they actively hold onto their awareness of their body through to REM sleep. Sensations from your body and environment can carry through to dreams, even without WILD. Many people even witness their own eyes bugging out from REM.

I believe this is an important distinction between the WILD experiences where you experience sleep paralysis, and the times you just get dumped into a lucid dream. In the traditional "WILD ride," you maintain consciousness (including body awareness) through to REM sleep. This often requires willfully holding attention on your body.

It is also possible to slip into hypnagogia and possibly some light dreams before REM, losing awareness of your body entirely. People who do this often use a visualization of a separate body, environment, or point of awareness. Both ways work.

[Thor]

Most everything in this thread goes against BillyBobs tech to WILD. You guys are over analyzing it waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much.

Really? This is a direct quote from BillyBob's WILD guide:

"For starters, you absolutely should NOT be waiting for HI or any other thing that people say they see, I myself rarely feel SP or see HI, I don't "see" anything because I'm so focused on my breathing."

[Thor]

That's not necessarily true. It is the way things normally work, but not when WILDing. When people WILD, they actively hold onto their awareness of their body through to REM sleep. Sensations from your body and environment can carry through to dreams, even without WILD. Many people even witness their own eyes bugging out from REM.

For starters, how do you know that you have entered REM sleep?

I believe this is an important distinction between the WILD experiences where you experience sleep paralysis, and the times you just get dumped into a lucid dream. In the traditional "WILD ride," you maintain consciousness (including body awareness) through to REM sleep. This often requires willfully holding attention on your body.

Where can I find a guide to this "traditional WILD ride"? All the WILD guides I've read, including LaBerge's, say that you will enter the dream immediately after experiencing hypnagogic hallucinations (if any) and then falling asleep consciously. In other words, the lucid dream starts as soon as you fall asleep, and REM sleep is still far away.

[John11]

Where can I find a guide to this "traditional WILD ride"? All the WILD guides I've read, including LaBerge's, say that you will enter the dream immediately after experiencing hypnagogic hallucinations (if any) and then falling asleep consciously. In other words, the lucid dream starts as soon as you fall asleep, and REM sleep is still far away.

What are you talking about? All LD's happen in REM sleep. This is from wikipedia. The quote is from LaBerge:

The wake-initiated lucid dream "occurs when the sleeper enters REM sleep with unbroken self-awareness directly from the waking state".[28]

Dreams rarely occur in Non-REM sleep, and if they do they are not vivid and they are not typically remembered.

Like RobotButler said, some people can even feel thier eyes moving when they are in REM sleep. I've experienced this once upon entering REM sleep via WILD, and once upon waking from REM sleep during a DILD.

[Thor]

What are you talking about? All LD's happen in REM sleep.

No, this is incorrect. You are quoting LaBerge to support your point, but the notion that lucid dreams occur only in REM sleep is actually contradicted by LaBerge's own research:

Stephen LaBerge, Ph.D. Lucid Dreaming: Psychophysiological Studies of Consciousness during REM Sleep. In Bootzen, R. R., Kihlstrom, J.F. & Schacter, D.L., (Eds.) Sleep and Cognition. Washington, D.C.: American Psychological Association, 1990 (pp. 109-126). (http://www.lucidity.com/SleepAndCognition.html)

In particular:

After being instructed in the method of lucid dream induction (MILD) described by LaBerge (1980b) the subjects were recorded from 2 to 20 nights each. In the course of the 34 nights of the study, 35 lucid dreams were reported subsequent to spontaneous awakening from various stages of sleep as follows: REM sleep 32 times, NREM Stage-1, twice, and during the transition from NREM Stage-2 to REM, once.

So lucid dreams in sleep stage 1 have definitely been verified.

Dreams rarely occur in Non-REM sleep, and if they do they are not vivid and they are not typically remembered.

This is an old myth, and the literature is replete with evidence to the contrary. Dreams in sleep stage 2 in particular are often indistinguishable from REM dreams. For example, would you like to take a guess at which sleep stage the following dream occurred in:

I was with my mother in a public library. I wanted her to steal something for me. I've got to try and remember what it was, because it was something extraordinary, something like a buffalo head that was in this museum. I had told my mother previously that I wanted this head and she said, all right, you know, we'll see what we can do about it. And she met me in the library, part of which was a museum. And I remember telling my mother to please lower her voice and she insisted on talking even more loudly. And I said, if you don't, of course, you'll never be able to take the buffalo head. Everyone will turn around and look at you. Well, when we got to the place where the buffalo head was, it was surrounded by other strange things. There was a little sort of smock that little boys used to wear at the beginning of the century. And one of the women who worked at the library came up to me and said, dear, I haven't been able to sell this smock. And I remember saying to her, well, why don't you wear it then? For some reason or other I had to leave my mother alone, and she had to continue with the buffalo head project all by herself. Then I left the library and went outside, and there were groups of people just sitting on the grass listening to music.

Correct answer: sleep stage 2.

Like RobotButler said, some people can even feel thier eyes moving when they are in REM sleep. I've experienced this once upon entering REM sleep via WILD, and once upon waking from REM sleep during a DILD.

So you were connected to an EEG machine then? If not, how did you know when you were in REM sleep?

[John11]

So you were connected to an EEG machine then?

That would be awesome :)

If not, how did you know when you were in REM sleep?

Okay, you're probably right. I haven't done very much reading on the subject yet. So, if LDs can occur in NREM sleep then I guess you wouldn't know you were in REM sleep then unless you felt symptoms of REM sleep like rapid eye movement or REM atonia.

[Shift]

That would be awesome :)



Okay, you're probably right. I haven't done very much reading on the subject yet. So, if LDs can occur in NREM sleep then I guess you wouldn't know you were in REM sleep then unless you felt symptoms of REM sleep like rapid eye movement or REM atonia.

And even then, remember, you may just be feeling that because you expect to, and it's a dream sensation that you induce ;) hahaha

[John11]

And even then, remember, you may just be feeling that because you expect to, and it's a dream sensation that you induce ;) hahaha

Yeah. I've thought of that too. I'm pretty sure though that I have a strong sense of my actual body when I'm sleeping. Of course I can't be positive, but it sure seems that way.

[Thor]

Most everything in this thread goes against BillyBobs tech to WILD. You guys are over analyzing it waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much.

Sorry for replying to your post twice, but the more I read of BillyBob the more I see him supporting my point:

When learning to WILD, the majority of people learn about these crAzY things like "Hypnogogic Imagery, Sleep Paralysis, Auditory Hallucinations, etc." and are then told that these things "lead up to" dreams.
What happens when they lay down to WILD? They subconsciously tell themselves "watch out for hypnogogia/paralysis/voices as these things mean you are closer to lucidity!" This is the exact equivalent of what the prehistoric human thought. This is the exact thing the system watches for to keep you from falling into your dreams!

This is precisely what I've been saying: If you keep focusing on SP, HH, and all that crap, you may actually sabotage your chances to WILD.

[Snowy Egypt]

This is precisely what I've been saying: If you keep focusing on SP, HH, and all that crap, you may actually sabotage your chances to WILD.

Ooooooh, that's what you're saying. Well why didn't you say so?!? :D All those fancy explanations from research documents didn't do it for me. Now I know what you're talking about. (Partly because I've read Bob's WILD guide where you got that quote.)

[Thor]

Ooooooh, that's what you're saying. Well why didn't you say so?!?

Can you read at all? These are things I said much earlier in this thread:

See, that's the core of the problem. Because of those misleading WILD guides you now believe that you have to "manage SP" in order to WILD. You don't. I and many others have WILDed without experiencing any kind of sleep paralysis.

Sure, but what if you give "these states" so much focus that you lose sight of the real goal, which was to WILD? I have personally WILDed with no HH at all, and I've read other people's accounts of the same here on Dream Views. If what you're expecting doesn't happen, don't you think that could be a discouragement to you? Personally I would recommend that people try to WILD with an open mind and not expect anything in particular except that they will eventually enter a dream.

See Shift, where this SP(P) focus is leading? To nowhere! Here moonshine was expecting a nice sequence of big signposts leading him into the dream, and now you have to inform him that there may not be any at all. What's he gonna do now?

[moonshine]

so, back on track:

The physical feelings which may occur, on the run up to Sleep Paralysis (for those who choose to experience them) might be summed up as follows:-

Stage 1) getting numb. That pins and needles feeling of a local anesthetic.

Stage 2) which is the tingling wave that tends rise from head to toe.

(note I may be mixing 1 and 2 up. Could be 2 brings about 1)

Stage 3) shake the bed vibrations and noises as you enter SP.


Has anyone else experienced a similar chain of events.

sigh.

Bump.

[Snowy Egypt]

Can you read at all? These are things I said much earlier in this thread:
See, that's the core of the problem. Because of those misleading WILD guides you now believe that you have to "manage SP" in order to WILD. You don't. I and many others have WILDed without experiencing any kind of sleep paralysis.Sure, but what if you give "these states" so much focus that you lose sight of the real goal, which was to WILD? I have personally WILDed with no HH at all, and I've read other people's accounts of the same here on Dream Views. If what you're expecting doesn't happen, don't you think that could be a discouragement to you? Personally I would recommend that people try to WILD with an open mind and not expect anything in particular except that they will eventually enter a dream.See Shift, where this SP(P) focus is leading? To nowhere! Here moonshine was expecting a nice sequence of big signposts leading him into the dream, and now you have to inform him that there may not be any at all. What's he gonna do now?

To be quite honest, I skimmed. Too many walls of texts staring me in the face at 12:44 AM? Yeah, the laziness kicked in.

But enough about me and my "lack of reading skills". I think moonshine wants his stuff replied to.

[Shift]

Sorry Moonshine. Everyone interested in discussing what SP is or isn't, I made a new thread: http://www.dreamviews.com/community/showthread.php?t=67732 Go wild with it.

[Snowy Egypt]

Sorry to nitpick, Shift, but the title's knida misleading. (To me anyways) We all need SP, otherwise we would act out our dreams. I think it would sound better if that last part went something like"...and why it is or isn't needed for WILD/LDs/whatever you want to put here."

>_< I hate nitpicking...but that just stood out to me.

[Shift]

Sorry to nitpick, Shift, but the title's knida misleading. (To me anyways) We all need SP, otherwise we would act out our dreams. I think it would sound better if that last part went something like"...and why it is or isn't needed for WILD/LDs/whatever you want to put here."

>_< I hate nitpicking...but that just stood out to me.

Well that's the whole point of this discussion, that people aren't even necessarily talking about REM atonia. Anyway I changed it slightly, further discussion there so we don't prevent moonshine from getting any feedback related to the stages of Sleep Paralysis. Sorry again, Moonshine :shock:

[moonshine]

Something interesting happened last night.
I guess I'd come out of a dream, and was lost in some disjointed strange rambling thoughts. Suddenly I felt the "vibrations", and then I woke up.

So my question is this. Is it possible to experience the same feelings on the threshold coming out of SP as we do going in. Cos last nights shenanigans would suggest this is the case.

[Shift]

:doh:

Sometimes the REM systems don’t turn on or off at the same time. For example, you may awaken partially from REM sleep, before the paralysis system turns off, so that your body is still paralyzed even though you are otherwise awake. Sleep paralysis, as this condition is called, can occur while people are falling asleep (rarely) or waking up (more frequently).

[moonshine]

Well I already knew you can wake up and still be in SP Shift....which I would guess is what I experienced, if only for a very brief overlap.

But I'm still interested in determining the commonality of the "physical" experience.

[Shift]

Well I already knew you can wake up and still be in SP Shift....which I would guess is what I experienced, if only for a very brief overlap.

But I'm still interested in determining the commonality of the "physical" experience.

The physical experience? Like the actual muscle paralysis? And do you mean like a ratio? I guess that would depend on the individual. Probably somewhere there is a person anal enough to keep track of SP experiences upon awakening or upon falling asleep. I've had it while awakening probably 8 times in my life, and falling asleep once, when I did try to get out of bed and couldn't, I'd realized I'd forgotten to set my alarm clock and couldn't get up to turn it on! :tongue: I know that blacks are more likely to get it for some reason, too, there are a zillion articles about it for some reason.

[moonshine]

Your still talking about the "hag" experience.

I'm still talking about the commonly understood definition within the lucid dreaming community.

That or, if it makes you feel better, the physical experiences leading up to SP proper.

Im talking about the numbness, the warm tingling wave, and the vibrations....all commonly reported symptoms
of WILD attempts. Pretty much as I said in my original post.

If we agree to disagree on terminology theres a change we might get some constructive feedback.

[Thor]

If we agree to disagree on terminology theres a change we might get some constructive feedback.

That's easy enough; the warm, tingling wave and vibrations are called hypnagogic hallucinations.

[moonshine]

didn't ask what they're called mate.

[moonshine]

That's easy enough; the warm, tingling wave and vibrations are called hypnagogic hallucinations.

Do you think its realistic that we all have the same hallucinations as we enter SP? I suspect not. There is no doubt that the vibrations are in the mind.
But they are common to many. As is the initial tingly wave before SP proper.

This sequence of events is what I want to get to the bottom of.

[moonshine]

So I had a short lucid last night.
I ended up flying over rooftops. I realised I was flying on a matress.
I woke up and I was lying face down on my bed.

Yet again, I had the pins and needles numbness in my arms and legs.
Is this just due to low blood pressure maybe?

[Shift]

So I had a short lucid last night.
I ended up flying over rooftops. I realised I was flying on a matress.
I woke up and I was lying face down on my bed.

Yet again, I had the pins and needles numbness in my arms and legs.
Is this just due to low blood pressure maybe?

If you're wide awake and getting this, even once you're moving around in your bed and out of bed, I'd say it's just your sleeping position or low blood pressure or a circulation problem or something, most likely not a sleep thing. I get that sometimes, if my limb is at an odd angle or thrown over the pillow it will be complete jello when I wake up :shock: or sometimes they will just be tingly-numb like they've gone to sleep. I have really low blood pressure, I sort of always assumed it was a combo of that and the angle.

The worst is when I get up out of bed too fast and pass out from the low blood pressure :shock:

[moonshine]

If you're wide awake and getting this, even once you're moving around in your bed and out of bed, I'd say it's just your sleeping position or low blood pressure or a circulation problem or something, most likely not a sleep thing. I get that sometimes, if my limb is at an odd angle or thrown over the pillow it will be complete jello when I wake up :shock: or sometimes they will just be tingly-numb like they've gone to sleep. I have really low blood pressure, I sort of always assumed it was a combo of that and the angle.

The worst is when I get up out of bed too fast and pass out from the low blood pressure :shock:

I'm starting to think you may well be right. This does seem to come on before I feel any of the SP waves. Yet, whilst this may not be part of the SP onset, it is still legitimately a physical event which you might encounter on the way.

So that leaves the inital tingling wave, and then the big SP wave.

[moonshine]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqlhkPkpNMM

Found a short vid on you cube from the famous Saltcube DVD.

Describing how SP can be used to enter lucid dreams (or OBE's as they call it).

Describes two things quite cleary.

1) SP is often felt as a wave rising from feet to head (I have experienced this myself).

2) Partial sleep paralysis is quite common. You can move, but only with difficulty, like moving through wax.

A number of posters who have described partial sleep paralysis have been subject to some scorn.

Allow me to offer an alternative comment: Your on the right tracks. Keep at it.

[TheMoon]

Just this morning i was really tired.

I stayed up all night, and then in the morning i knew i had to go to work in a few hours, so i didn't let my self fall asleep completely. I just tried to dream and stay "Awake" Or "Aware".

I started getting the imagery I normally get before i lucid dream, pretty much right away.

As soon as i started getting the images and seeing dreams start to appear, i noticed my body went into SP pretty quickly.

I got completely paralyzed as soon as the images started appearing.

I of course have no slept since then haha, i got maybe a hour of rest.

So well anyways, my point of this post, SP can happen in different ways.

However, what moonshine said orginaly holds true to me for the most part.

When ever i goto bed at night, and i lay down and i go into SP, thats pretty much how it happens each time.

Unless i'm really tired like i was this morning.

[lozbritt]

hey, if your saying that you dont have to get to sp before you can become lucid, then how do you know when you can become lucid? what do i feel before going into the dream and how do i go about doing this? i dont feel sp very often and when i do its a fluke one night but whenever i try i get no feelings really apart from numbness then give up, so how do i go from there to a lucid dream without the sp? thanks

[Shift]

hey, if your saying that you dont have to get to sp before you can become lucid, then how do you know when you can become lucid? what do i feel before going into the dream and how do i go about doing this? i dont feel sp very often and when i do its a fluke one night but whenever i try i get no feelings really apart from numbness then give up, so how do i go from there to a lucid dream without the sp? thanks

http://www.dreamviews.com/sleepstages.php
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/showthread.php?t=62769
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/showthread.php?t=66238 (see the bottom for even more)

[Garjzla]

man i really want to expereince ture sleep parlysis i usually fall alsleep before it kicks in...:(

[Shift]

man i really want to expereince ture sleep parlysis i usually fall alsleep before it kicks in...:(

I never found them that exciting... You just can't move. And then you can. I never had any hallucinations or PRES along with it, just pure dilute SP. I dunno I was always intrigued because I didn't know what it was, but in and of itself I don't think it's that great. Rather disturbing if you imagine waking up because your smoke detectors are going off and you can't move :shock: I always worried that was going to happen, I didn't realize that they don't usually last over a few minutes max. But I guess one benefit is that you can marginally relate to people who have real paralysis :(

Hypnic jerks are weirder but more fun to me lmao

[TheMoon]

I never found them that exciting... You just can't move. And then you can. I never had any hallucinations or PRES along with it, just pure dilute SP. I dunno I was always intrigued because I didn't know what it was, but in and of itself I don't think it's that great. Rather disturbing if you imagine waking up because your smoke detectors are going off and you can't move :shock: I always worried that was going to happen, I didn't realize that they don't usually last over a few minutes max. But I guess one benefit is that you can marginally relate to people who have real paralysis :(

Hypnic jerks are weirder but more fun to me lmao

For me its different, if i wake up in SP, or i wake up, lay back down and go into SP. I can stay in it indefinably it doesn't stop for me. I can even wake up a little bit, stand my turso up, then lay back down, and go right back into SP.

Once i get it, it doesn't go away, and it can be a bit annoying, because sometimes in SP i get really scared. And i just want it to go away, but i don't want to get out of bed.

So i each time i lay down, my body goes right back into SP lol.

I'm like half asleep, so each time i sit up, then lay back down, i keep going into SP and having to come back out. So its like a back and forth battle until i wake up enough to get up and walk the SP off.

[Robot_Butler]

For me its different, if i wake up in SP, or i wake up, lay back down and go into SP. I can stay in it indefinably it doesn't stop for me. I can even wake up a little bit, stand my turso up, then lay back down, and go right back into SP.


I find the same thing happens. It is like I get in the zone, and can then easily enter or exit the paralysis repeatedly.

[Shift]

For me its different, if i wake up in SP, or i wake up, lay back down and go into SP. I can stay in it indefinably it doesn't stop for me. I can even wake up a little bit, stand my turso up, then lay back down, and go right back into SP.

Once i get it, it doesn't go away, and it can be a bit annoying, because sometimes in SP i get really scared. And i just want it to go away, but i don't want to get out of bed.

So i each time i lay down, my body goes right back into SP lol.

I'm like half asleep, so each time i sit up, then lay back down, i keep going into SP and having to come back out. So its like a back and forth battle until i wake up enough to get up and walk the SP off.

Ah, I was talking about common sleep paralysis, since it's pretty clear Garjlza doesn't get isolated sleep paralysis :)

[moonshine]

Ah, I was talking about common sleep paralysis, since it's pretty clear Garjlza doesn't get isolated sleep paralysis :)

I found the attached which seems to be a pretty good guide.
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/showthread.php?t=65007

[Shift]

I found the attached which seems to be a pretty good guide.
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/showthread.php?t=65007

Don't get me started :(

[adraw]

Now. I really know, what is sleep paralysis episode. At least hypnopompic one. But my question would be. Is there a difference between technique induced state and the state you get when you have that old hag episode?

I cannot compare, becouse I never managed to enter my lucid dream with help of WILD and had few "old hag" experiences while waking up?

Maybe clearing this would help us to progress further ... Thenx for responses. :D

[Thor]

I found the attached which seems to be a pretty good guide.
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/showthread.php?t=65007

I didn't get further than the second sentence of that guide before I found a blatant falsehood: "[Sleep paralysis is] a necessity for dreaming [...]" Wrong! Sleep paralysis, under any common interpretation, is definitely not a necessity for dreaming.

Under the heading "What Sleep Paralysis Feels Like" you can find, among other things, a feeling that you're floating on water and a feeling of heaviness. These are, along with the often mentioned tingling, normal symptoms of relaxation.

The most informative statement of that article is probably that "Many lucid dreamers report nothing at all, with both WILD and DEILD techniques. It is not uncommon to be laying in your bed and then suddenly be in a dream with no feeling of sleep paralysis at all."

The remaining symptoms are vibrations, falling, and static charges, which are common forms of hypnagogic hallucinations.

If you want a good WILD guide, read one of BillyBob's guides.

[adraw]

I didn't get further than the second sentence of that guide before I found a blatant falsehood: "[Sleep paralysis is] a necessity for dreaming [...]" Wrong! Sleep paralysis, under any common interpretation, is definitely not a necessity for dreaming.

Under the heading "What Sleep Paralysis Feels Like" you can find, among other things, a feeling that you're floating on water and a feeling of heaviness. These are, along with the often mentioned tingling, normal symptoms of relaxation.

The most informative statement of that article is probably that "Many lucid dreamers report nothing at all, with both WILD and DEILD techniques. It is not uncommon to be laying in your bed and then suddenly be in a dream with no feeling of sleep paralysis at all."

The remaining symptoms are vibrations, falling, and static charges, which are common forms of hypnagogic hallucinations.

If you want a good WILD guide, read one of BillyBob's guides.

Oh yeah. No illusions. Just pure and simple waiting :D

[moonshine]

I didn't get further than the second sentence of that guide before I found a blatant falsehood: "[Sleep paralysis is] a necessity for dreaming [...]" Wrong! Sleep paralysis, under any common interpretation, is definitely not a necessity for dreaming.

Under the heading "What Sleep Paralysis Feels Like" you can find, among other things, a feeling that you're floating on water and a feeling of heaviness. These are, along with the often mentioned tingling, normal symptoms of relaxation.

The most informative statement of that article is probably that "Many lucid dreamers report nothing at all, with both WILD and DEILD techniques. It is not uncommon to be laying in your bed and then suddenly be in a dream with no feeling of sleep paralysis at all."

The remaining symptoms are vibrations, falling, and static charges, which are common forms of hypnagogic hallucinations.

If you want a good WILD guide, read one of BillyBob's guides.

I think what you mean is that attaining SP prior to dreaming is not neccesary.
This won't be news to most. It is well know that there are other techniques.


There can be little doubt that SP must be induced whilst you are dreaming.
Otherwise, as you're running around in your dream you will be bouncing of the walls in your bedroom also. Seems pretty "essential" to me.

[Thor]

There can be little doubt that SP must be induced whilst you are dreaming.
Otherwise, as you're running around in your dream you will be bouncing of the walls in your bedroom also. Seems pretty "essential" to me.

I assume that by "SP" you mean REM atonia. You can dream in any sleep stage, but REM atonia only occurs in REM sleep, so obviously "SP" is not a necessity for dreaming.

[Mortalis]

As discussed in another post, where a definition of REM atonia was provided, a common name for REM atonia is sleep paralysis. I think you have stated in posts about 20 times that you don't think REM atonia is necessary for dreaming...OK we get it. We understand that sleep walkers can dream. OK! We understand that in less than 1% of the time that people are in non-REM sleep they can dream. OK! Otherwise, when you are dreaming in REM sleep and not sleep walking you are in REM atonia...so yeah, only ~99% of dreaming coincides with REM atonia..

[moonshine]

As discussed in another post, where a definition of REM atonia was provided, a common name for REM atonia is sleep paralysis. I think you have stated in posts about 20 times that you don't think REM atonia is necessary for dreaming...OK we get it. We understand that sleep walkers can dream. OK! We understand that in less than 1% of the time that people are in non-REM sleep they can dream. OK! Otherwise, when you are dreaming in REM sleep and not sleep walking you are in REM atonia...so yeah, only ~99% of dreaming coincides with REM atonia..

Seconded!

[Robot_Butler]

As discussed in another post, where a definition of REM atonia was provided, a common name for REM atonia is sleep paralysis. I think you have stated in posts about 20 times that you don't think REM atonia is necessary for dreaming...OK we get it. We understand that sleep walkers can dream. OK! We understand that in less than 1% of the time that people are in non-REM sleep they can dream. OK! Otherwise, when you are dreaming in REM sleep and not sleep walking you are in REM atonia...so yeah, only ~99% of dreaming coincides with REM atonia..

It is getting a little frustrating, isn't it? Proof that if you say something enough, you start believing it is true. Don't believe everything you think, Thor.

[Thor]

As discussed in another post, where a definition of REM atonia was provided, a common name for REM atonia is sleep paralysis. I think you have stated in posts about 20 times that you don't think REM atonia is necessary for dreaming...OK we get it. We understand that sleep walkers can dream. OK! We understand that in less than 1% of the time that people are in non-REM sleep they can dream. OK! Otherwise, when you are dreaming in REM sleep and not sleep walking you are in REM atonia...so yeah, only ~99% of dreaming coincides with REM atonia..

I have no idea where you got those figures from, but they have nothing to do with reality.

"It is generally accepted that NREM mentation which is indistinguishable from REM dreaming does indeed occur. Monroe et al's (1965) widely cited study suggests that approximately 10-30% of NREM dreams are indistinguishable from REM dreams (Rechtschaffen 1973). Even Hobson accepts that 5-10% of NREM dream reports are `indistinguishable by any criterion from those obtained from post-REM awakenings' (Hobson 1988, p. 143). If we adjust this conservative figure to account for the fact that NREM sleep occupies approximately 75% of total sleep time, this implies that roughly one quarter of all REM-like dreams occur outside of REM sleep." (emphasis mine)

Solms, Mark. Dreaming and REM Sleep Are Controlled by Different Brain Mechanisms, Behavioral and Brain Sciences 23 (6), 2000.

[Robot_Butler]

this implies that roughly one quarter of all REM-like dreams occur outside of REM sleep." (emphasis mine)

Right, and you are not running around acting out those NREM dreams either. You are still paralyzed.

[Thor]

Right, and you are not running around acting out those NREM dreams either. You are still paralyzed.

No, you are not paralyzed; people move in their sleep. In REM atonia the nerve signals to the skeletal muscles are blocked by certain types of neurotransmitters, so you can't move. In non-REM sleep this is not the case, but the muscle tone is low, like in relaxation.

[Robot_Butler]

So, you are running around acting out your dreams? I would hate to have to sleep in the same room as you.

[Thor]

So, you are running around acting out your dreams? I would hate to have to sleep in the same room as you.

What I'm telling you is a well established, non-controversial scientific fact. Atonia doesn't seem to be necessary in any other sleep stages than REM, even if you do dream in those stages.

[Robot_Butler]

Atonia doesn't seem to be necessary in any other sleep stages than REM, even if you do dream in those stages.

That is exactly my point. But sleep paralysis still does occur. We do not act out our dreams, whether REM or NREM. Are you starting to understand why the term sleep paralysis is used, instead of REM-atonia?

[Mortalis]

In the thread I was citing you mentioned a study where 1 member out of maybe 100something or so reported a dream in non rem sleep. This is clearly not statistically significant (p<.05)

[Mortalis]

I have no idea where you got those figures from, but they have nothing to do with reality.
"It is generally accepted that NREM mentation which is indistinguishable from REM dreaming does indeed occur. Monroe et al's (1965) widely cited study suggests that approximately 10-30% of NREM dreams are indistinguishable from REM dreams (Rechtschaffen 1973). Even Hobson accepts that 5-10% of NREM dream reports are `indistinguishable by any criterion from those obtained from post-REM awakenings' (Hobson 1988, p. 143). If we adjust this conservative figure to account for the fact that NREM sleep occupies approximately 75% of total sleep time, this implies that roughly one quarter of all REM-like dreams occur outside of REM sleep." (emphasis mine)Solms, Mark. Dreaming and REM Sleep Are Controlled by Different Brain Mechanisms, Behavioral and Brain Sciences 23 (6), 2000.

Do you not see the flaw in logic here? The author is making an assumption. Let me put it in a hypothetical situation:

Approximately 10-30% of NREM dreams are indistinguishable from REM dreams : And lets say that NREM dreams occur 1/100000, or 1/1000000 compared to REM dreams..you just don't know, just because 10% or 30% or 100% of those 1 in a million are indistinguishable from REM dreams doesn't mean that they are common.

Lets accept his numbers, 75% of the time you are in NREM, but that doesnt mean that the dreams are evenly spaced. They are concentrated in REM sleep, and there is no data here to say that 15% of that 75% of NREM are dreams, they are simply indistiguishable...which means you have no clue where they are, or when.

[Thor]

That is exactly my point. But sleep paralysis still does occur. We do not act out our dreams, whether REM or NREM. Are you starting to understand why the term sleep paralysis is used, instead of REM-atonia?

No, I don't understand it, because that's not a meaning of the term "sleep paralysis" that is known in the medical or scientific communities. You are of course free to invent the terminology you want, but the terms "sleep" or "dream" seem to already describe what you are talking about, so there is no need to misuse an established term. After all you are talking about subjective bodily sensations occuring concomitant with sleep or dreaming, and in the absence of actual measurements it would be hard or impossible for an individual to identify those sensations as physiological states.

[moonshine]

No, I don't understand it, because that's not a meaning of the term "sleep paralysis" that is known in the medical or scientific communities. You are of course free to invent the terminology you want, but the terms "sleep" or "dream" seem to already describe what you are talking about, so there is no need to misuse an established term. After all you are talking about subjective bodily sensations occuring concomitant with sleep or dreaming, and in the absence of actual measurements it would be hard or impossible for an individual to identify those sensations as physiological states.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Laberge is Scientist.

[Thor]

In the thread I was citing you mentioned a study where 1 member out of maybe 100something or so reported a dream in non rem sleep. This is clearly not statistically significant (p<.05)

I don't recall citing such a study; could you please point it out for me?

Do you not see the flaw in logic here? The author is making an assumption. Let me put it in a hypothetical situation:

Approximately 10-30% of NREM dreams are indistinguishable from REM dreams : And lets say that NREM dreams occur 1/100000, or 1/1000000 compared to REM dreams..you just don't know, just because 10% or 30% or 100% of those 1 in a million are indistinguishable from REM dreams doesn't mean that they are common.


There is no need to guess at numbers. Quoting again from the same article:

"Dreaming and REM sleep are incompletely correlated. Between 5% and 30% of REM awakenings do not elicit dream reports; and at least 5-10% of NREM awakenings do elicit dream reports which are indistinguishable from REM reports (Hobson 1988)."

Note that here we are talking about awakenings in a sleep lab, not the number of dreams.

Lets accept his numbers, 75% of the time you are in NREM, but that doesnt mean that the dreams are evenly spaced. They are concentrated in REM sleep, and there is no data here to say that 15% of that 75% of NREM are dreams, they are simply indistiguishable...which means you have no clue where they are, or when.
[/SIZE]

I'm afraid I don't understand what you are trying to say. What point are you arguing here?

[Thor]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Laberge is Scientist.

LaBerge doesn't use the term "sleep paralysis" in that way. He uses it to mean either REM atonia or the disorder.

[moonshine]

LaBerge doesn't use the term "sleep paralysis" in that way. He uses it to mean either REM atonia or the disorder.

Doesn't use it in what way?

Honestly THOR you seem to keep changing your mind as to what your actually arguing about.

[Robot_Butler]

Did you read the study Mortalis posted? You are paralyzed when you are dreaming. Don't be deceived by the REM in REM-atonia. You can be aware of this paralysis if you maintain body consciousness. I don't know why you insist on splitting hairs where it is not at all necessary.

You seem to think there is some set of magical rules when it comes to sleeping. It does not work like that. There are no hard barriers between stages of consciousness and sleep. What few barriers there are, are purely conventions, established by us as observers to aid in our understanding. They can be broken down through any of the techniques discussed on this forum.

[Thor]

Did you read the study Mortalis posted?

No, where did he post it? Do you have the citation?

There are no hard barriers between stages of consciousness and sleep.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "barriers", but since consciousness often occurs in sleep it seems odd to suggest that there could be any barriers between the two.

[Mortalis]

Its at the end of your thread about what everyone should know about SP

[Thor]

Its at the end of your thread about what everyone should know about SP

Thanks, found it. I also refuted it in that thread.

[Mortalis]

I do enjoy how you refute science with opinion, its great.

[moonshine]

So this is were I've gotten to:-

There are also common feelings as you progress to SP. These are a relaxing of the body (some describe it as a lead blanket) and possibly pins and needles, probably due to your blood circulation slowing down. You are after all almost in a trance state. It is possible to move from this state, and you can be slow and sluggish, but it is not SP proper, which, from descriptions, cannot be mistaken.

SP is often (but no neccesarily) accompanied by Hypnogogic illusions caused by your bodies switching from external stimuli (touch, hearing, sight) to internally generated stimuli.

A lot of people describe a warm tingling wave (some describe it as a mild electric shock) that comes over them, from toe to head as their body shuts down.

They then can hear noises, feel vibrations or movements like they are shaking. Which of course they aren't. Some also describe what seems like a difficulty in breathing. I'm not sure, but this seems to be to describe your body switching to an automatic reflex. In reality your getting more than enough air, it just feels like your breathing quicker and shallower than you would during the day.

There may also be a pressure in the chest and head.

Finally, a lot of people describe the feeling of their heart beat quickening. This may be excitement, but has been described as another illusion created by the change from awake to dream mode.

[moonshine]

A related thread with some good descriptions....

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/showthread.php?p=972250#post972250

[pond weed]

ug, finaly an answere to the origional post, if id have know i could skip to the end to find the answere (that moonshine has posted up himself) i would have skipped to the end to avoid the irrelevant debate about what means what.

[moonshine]

ug, finaly an answere to the origional post, if id have know i could skip to the end to find the answere (that moonshine has posted up himself) i would have skipped to the end to avoid the irrelevant debate about what means what.

I think you're right pond weed. I think I'll wind this thread up and start a fresh one. Hopefully get some constructive contributions.

MODs feel free to lock.