traditional tibetan yogas

[cygnus]

a lot of the threads here on the subject of dream yoga don't actually involve its main practice - just the preliminary practices, which are like continuous reality checks.

the sleep practice divides the period of sleep into four segments, roughly divided by two hours each. each involves a position to lie in, a visualization, or a breath practice.

the essence of the practice is to bring presence of mind into your dreams, thereby stimulating lucidity.

the main reason i'm writing this is because i'd like to hear from some other people who use this method. feel free to comment on anything you do with your daily practice as well, but more importantly i'd like to discuss progress anyone has made with the sleep practice.



to summarize the practice:

1. when first going to bed, lie on your right side (left side for women) and visualize a red sphere of light in your throat - the quality of sleep should be peaceful.

2. at the next waking, lie in the same position and take 7 conscious breaths, holding the breath in the belly with the muscles at the floor of the pelvis, and relaxing completely upon the exhalation. visualize a white sphere of light in the third eye chakra - this segment emphasizes clarity of mind.

3. next lie on your back (possibly with your head on two pillows to elevate it), take 21 slow, conscious breaths, and visualize a black sphere in your heart region.

4. finally, lie in any position and focus on a black sphere at the base of your spine - this will be the last waking period before getting out of bed in the morning.

-- it's important to sort of... merge with the visualizations and stay with them as you fall asleep so that you carry that awareness into your dreams. the colors and locations of the visualizations and the positions to sleep in correspond to qualities of sleep that contribute to increased lucidity.

[Mariano]

Yeah, I read them , but I didn't want to do them because I must go to school, for example, and If I want to use an alarm to wake up I would disturb my family.
but when the moment comes, I think I will try this, but first I want to accomplish my day practice

bye!

(that info is from the tibetan yogas of dream and sleep, a great book, to make your mind grow in all aspects)

[cygnus]

hey mariano!

i don't use an alarm anymore for the same reason - what i do now is drink a lot of water before bed and when i wake up so that i naturally wake up several times. the sleep practice doesn't interfere with anything... but i look forward to when you get the time to work on it!

and yeah - that book is pretty great.

[Shift]

cell phones on vibrate ftw

[cygnus]

yeah shift, i used to fix my phone to my hand with a wrist band and set it to vibrate - i prefer to wake up naturally, though... and i'm always thirsty :P


i became lucid the other day because in the dream i was still visualizing a sphere in my chest - it definitely increases your awareness when asleep. these methods are my favorite.

[bigCHEESE77]

This looks.....interesting. I've never before tried any yoga type methods. I might possibly give this a try. First, what is "chakra"? and what is your "third eye chakra"?

[baronbrocoli]

The tibetan sleep yogas aim not only to achieve lucid dreams, but a different form of dreams in which one experiences only conciousness and no imagery. I tried to use these yogas for a while and they really are great! I might come back to training my concentration that was so hard for me lol...
Anyways I really recommend the book its really interesting!

BTW meditating before sleep always increased my dream's vividness and my recall! I used to meditate for like 10 minutes :)

[TJuulsgaard]

This looks.....interesting. I've never before tried any yoga type methods. I might possibly give this a try. First, what is "chakra"? and what is your "third eye chakra"?

"Chakras" are energy-centers that are present in your body. You can activate them by bringing awareness to them - which is what you are doing by visualising different things in them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakra

The third eye chakra is placed just a few inches over the point between your eyebrows.

[TJuulsgaard]

Yeah, I read them , but I didn't want to do them because I must go to school, for example, and If I want to use an alarm to wake up I would disturb my family.
but when the moment comes, I think I will try this, but first I want to accomplish my day practice

bye!

(that info is from the tibetan yogas of dream and sleep, a great book, to make your mind grow in all aspects)

You don't need an alarm clock. The cycles doesn't need to be exact, and you gradually sleep lighter, so you will wake up easier when getting used to the practices. The light sleep is also making it easier to attain lucidity in your dreams, so not doing the night exercises could be reason to failure.

You don't need to do all exercises every night - you just need to learn them in the correct order. The first gives power to the next and so on. You could start with doing first exercise while going to sleep and then IF you wake up (even if it is 5 hours later) do the next exercise - as the exercises take effect and you get the neccessary strength (and sleep lighter) you can go on to the 3rd and 4th exercise accordingly.

In my month of dedicated dream yoga I have only come to my night 3rd practise 4-5 times - and never the 4th.

[SKA]

Interresting, finally someone brings information on how to get lucid in a clearcut way.
I will be trying this for sure.

[cygnus]

thanks you guys for clarifying.

.. it's definitely a good idea at first to let the process unfold naturally: you don't have to press yourself to do all four in one night, in fact you could just work on one section for a few nights to get comfortable with it. the sequence is important though once you can bring it all together.

dividing the night into these sections and sleeping lighter with more clarity is definitely conducive to lucidity and in my opinion is more reliable and easier to develop over time than a typical WILD. your awareness and development of lucidity is more of a gradual progression than just a "lucid or fail" result.

dream and sleep yoga are used to have dreams of clarity and clear light dreams. a dream of clarity is typically one in which your recall is very good and you may be lucid. a clear light dream is interesting because it involves being lucid and abiding in non-dual awareness, in which case you may realize the illusory nature of your experiences and rest in non-action within the luminosity of your awareness.
(sleep yoga is a more advanced version of this in which you train yourself to become lucid in sleep.)

[Shift]

I thought I'd report in.

I've been listening to meditation shit on youtube recently. I passed out during a chakra one that I had incredibly relaxing music.

As I was drifting off I thought about attempting these exercises, because I'm getting sick and my throat is sore and the first visualization was a black spot in your throat, which I had no trouble visualizing because I feel like death and pain are highly concentrated in my tonsils right now :? But, I fell asleep too quickly :( I'll try again, though.

As far as the FOUR AWAKENINGS, what's the deal? Do you set an alarm? Because I wake up way more often than that (as we all do), and not at regular two hour intervals. Do you disregard natural/artifical awakenings except for intentional awakenings every two hours? So that your natural awakenings don't count in the counting?

[cygnus]

You don't need an alarm clock. The cycles doesn't need to be exact, and you gradually sleep lighter, so you will wake up easier when getting used to the practices. The light sleep is also making it easier to attain lucidity in your dreams


yes, you can use your natural awakenings.

and you shouldn't be falling asleep when meditating, shift haha ;). you're striving for awareness of the movements of your mind... and like i said earlier, you want to merge your awareness with the visualization when falling asleep so that your mind is clear of other thoughts, but your visualization isn't so rigid and external that you can't fall asleep.

the practice as a whole is effective, but don't push yourself to do the whole sequence when you're new to it.

[Shift]

yes, you can use your natural awakenings.

and you shouldn't be falling asleep when meditating, shift haha ;). you're striving for awareness of the movements of your mind... and like i said earlier, you want to merge your awareness with the visualization when falling asleep so that your mind is clear of other thoughts, but your visualization isn't so rigid and external that you can't fall asleep.

the practice as a whole is effective, but don't push yourself to do the whole sequence when you're new to it.

Ah yea, I ignored his posts because it's your thread, not his, and I didn't know if you agreed or not.

Yea, I wasn't really using it for meditation, but really to relax and help me pass out. The calming music was more important to me than some woman saying chakra every few minutes hehehe I'll strive to do better if I ever meditate for real, though :tongue:

[cygnus]

i'd like to hear as many people's experiences as possible...

shift, i think the easiest way to start out with meditation is to do sound meditation - you can listen to some downtempo music and observe it without judging. whenever your mind starts to wander, bring it back to your sense of hearing. then you can turn off the music and extend this to natural sounds, and then maybe another method.

---

one of the supportive practices for dream yoga is zhiné, or calm abiding, which is what i do. it's helpful because it reduces your internal dialogue and like baronbrocoli mentioned, it works well if you meditate before sleep.

[Shift]

I actually have synesthesia to music so if I were to listen to it while meditating, like I do when I'm asleep, I'd just be watching it move around... I'm not sure if that would be good or bad for meditating. I find the it the coolest and most relaxing thing in the world, but it definitely causes me to actively and attentively focus on the music. Keeping my mind from wandering would not be an issue, it's almost like watching something good on tv.

[TJuulsgaard]

Ah yea, I ignored his posts because it's your thread, not his, and I didn't know if you agreed or not.


Sorry - didn't mean to sound like a "bezzerwizzer" and taking over the thread:?

[Mariano]

Ok, you are forcing me to do Sleep Yoga too!?
that's what you wanted? eh ?? EH??
ok.
I recommend reading the book to have a better source of info.
tibetan yogas of dream and sleep by tenzin wangyan rinpoche

I can give it to you if you want ;), I have it on PDF
ok..

I will tell you my results on my thread "my dream yoga journey"

bye

[cygnus]

no one is forcing you to do anything, mariano! i've read the book you're talking about like two and a half times.

and no, you weren't a bezzerwizzer, TJ.

[Mariano]

the only problem with night practice will be the school time.
I go to bed at 10:30 and must wake up at 6:30.
do you think it will interfer with my sleep? I really don't want that...

[cygnus]

well you're not waiting for sleep paralysis or anything like in a typical WILD, and i wouldn't say it disrupts your sleep - it doesn't for me. i actually feel like i've slept better when i have several natural wakings throughout the night; since i fall asleep more times my body thinks it's gotten lots of sleep.

[bigCHEESE77]

I would like to try this. something new. But how exactly do you "merge yourself with the visualization?"

[cygnus]

you want to merge your awareness with the visualization when falling asleep so that your mind is clear of other thoughts, but your visualization isn't so rigid and external that you can't fall asleep.


i'm not sure if i can explain it any more... :(

but if you try it out feel free to ask more about this if you can't get a feel for it.


---- anyone who has experience with dream yoga - if you want, go ahead and clarify whatever topic comes up if i don't do a good job of it. thanks!

[Mariano]

people, to understand what cygnus says, I really recommend reading the book.
the books has all the details you need to do this practice.

I uploaded it to rapidshare, enjoy! on this book all of your doubts will be answered.

http://rapidshare.de/files/47879824/Tenzin_Wangyal_Rinpoche_-_The_Tibetan_Yogas_of_Dream_and_Sleep.rar.html

[A dreamer168]

There is a very good CD by Lama Surya Das on this subject

[baronbrocoli]

one of the supportive practices for dream yoga is zhiné, or calm abiding, which is what i do. it's helpful because it reduces your internal dialogue and like baronbrocoli mentioned, it works well if you meditate before sleep.

This is one of the hardest practices for me lol... I used to do some meditation before sleep but it was only visualization and relaxation. For me zhine is better done when you are fully awake. At least its easier for me to concentrate :)

[cygnus]

zhiné is definitely part of the daily practice, yes -- the nine purifications breathing method was recommended in the book to do before bed.

in my opinion meditation should be relatively effortless. you're not trying to make anything happen; you let thoughts dissolve without grasping or aversion. though there is some level of concentration required, the main idea is to rest in the spaces between thoughts. in zhiné you're simply going from meditation with an object to meditation without an object.

---

and thanks, mariano for posting the book for anyone else interested.

[bigCHEESE77]

I have a request. Could you please explain all the methods that you're talking about? I've never heard the names before, and I cannot figure out the method just by the name.

Thanks!

[cygnus]

ok, i think the only things i haven't explained are zhiné and the nine purifications breathing.

i'm just going to do some quoting from tenzin wangyal r. 's book, but let me know if there's anything else.

zhiné (shin - ay) is a form of meditation, also known as calm abiding. it is a part of the daily practice of dream yoga. this develops concentration and quiets the mind - qualities supportive of lucidity. it is divided into three parts.

the first part uses an object - anything small that you can look at from a close distance should work.

The first stage of practice is called "forceful" because it requires effort. The mind is easily and quickly distracted, and it may seem impossible to remain focused on the object for even a minute. In the beginning, it is helpful to practice in numerous short sessions alternating with breaks... Keep the mind on the object. Do not follow the thoughts of the past or the future. Do not allow the attention to be carried away by fantasy, sound, physical sensation, or any other distraction. Just remain in the sensuality of the present moment, and with your whole strength and clarity focus the mind through the eye, on the object.

...

As stability is developed, the second stage of practice is entered: natural zhiné. In the first stage, concentration is developed by continually directing the attention to the object and developing control over the unruly mind. In the second stage, the mind is absorbed in contemplation of the object and there is no longer the need for force to hold it still. A relaxed and pleasant tranquility is established, in which the mind is quiet and thoughts arise without distracting the mind from the object. The elements of the body become harmonized and the prana moves evenly and gently throughout the body. This is an appropriate time to move to fixation without an object.
Abandoning the physical object, simply fix the focus on space. It is helpful
to gaze into expansive space, like the sky, but the practice can be done even in a small room by fixing on the space between your body and the wall. Remain steady and calm. Leave the body relaxed. Rather than focusing on an imagined point in space, allow the mind, while remaining in strong presence, to be diffuse. We call this "dissolving the mind" in space, or "merging the mind with space." It will lead to stable tranquility and the third stage of zhiné practice.

...

Whereas in the second stage there is still some heaviness involved in the
absorption in the object, the third stage is characterized by a mind that is
tranquil but light, relaxed, and pliable. Thoughts arise and dissolve
spontaneously and without effort. The mind is integrated fully with its own
movement.



-----

the nine purifications breathing prepares you for the sleep portion of the practice. after reviewing the events of the day and reflecting upon them as if they are elements of a dream, you can then let go of the stress you have in your body associated with the past, future and present by using your breath.



Sit in a cross-legged meditation posture. Place your hands palm-up in your
lap, with the left hand resting on the right. Bend your head just a little to
straighten the neck. Visualize the three channels of energy in your body. The central channel is blue and rises straight through the center of the body; it is the size of a cane, and widens slightly from the heart to its opening at the crown of the head. The side channels are the diameter of pencils and join the central channel at its base, about four inches below the navel. They rise straight through the body to either side of the central channel, curve around under the skull, pass down behind the
eyes, and open at the nostrils. In women the right channel is red and the left is white. In men the right channel is white and the left is red.


First Three Breaths

Men: Raise the right hand with the thumb pressing the base of the ring finger. Closing the right nostril with the ring finger, inhale green light through the left nostril. Then, closing the left nostril with the right ring finger, exhale completely through the right nostril. Repeat this for three inhalations and exhalations.

Women: Raise the left hand with the thumb pressing the base of the ring
finger. Closing the left nostril with the ring finger, inhale green light through the right nostril. Then, closing the right nostril with the ring finger, exhale completely through the left nostril. Repeat this for three inhalations and exhalations. With each exhalation, imagine all obstacles linked with male potencies expelled from the white channel in the form of light-blue air. These include illnesses associated with the winds (pranas) as well as obstacles and obscurations connected with the past.


Second Three Breaths

Men and Women: Change hands and nostrils and repeat for three inhalations and exhalations. With each exhalation, imagine all obstacles linked with female potencies expelled from the red channel in the form of light-pink air. These include illnesses associated with bile as well as obstacles and obscurations associated with the future.


Third Three Breaths

Men and Women: Place the left hand on top of the right in the lap, palms up. Inhale green healing light into both nostrils. Visualize it moving down the side channels to the juncture with the main channel, four finger widths below the navel. With the exhalation, visualize the energy rising up the central channel and out the top of the head. Complete three inhalations and exhalations. With each exhalation, imagine all potencies for illnesses associated with hostile spirits expelled from the top of the head in the form of black smoke. These include illnesses associated with phlegm as well as obstacles and obscurations associated with the present.


though this practice includes some things that are a bit alien to western culture, its visualizations release hangups you have about personal experiences which have an influence on the quality of your dreams.

[baronbrocoli]

BTW the nine breaths are a kind of purification and always work best if you have some sorto of strong emotion at the moment of the meditation, like if your angry with someone or sad

[bigCHEESE77]

wow, that's sort of cool. And, I hate to sound noobish, but what is prana?

[ReachingForTheDream]

Thanks for posting this, I've looked up dream yoga but never really found exercises. I only found more about what dream yoga is all about. I will definitely try this.

[cygnus]

prana is the sanskrit name for vital energy, like qi or in tibetan, lung.

acupressure (http://www.dreamviews.com/community/showthread.php?t=78208) seems to be the most effective way for me to enhance my dreaming practice from an energetic basis. i haven't really tried to work it into my dream yoga yet, but i'll report back on this - i might do the points before each segment of the sleep practice.

[baronbrocoli]

So is anyone currently doing the whole practices? Day and night I mean.

[TJuulsgaard]

I'm currently on a 4 week holiday - and I have decided to really be disciplined about my dream yoga during these 4 week - last night I had my first LD while doing Dream Yoga - In my dream I became lucid without reality-checking - I dreamt of being back to work and said to myself: Hey how can I be here, I was just on holiday this day." and wham I was lucid - and had a very clear LD. During the night I had done 3 of the 4 main-practices, so I believe that was why I was very conscious during the dream.

So how am i doing Dream Yoga?: When I wake up i go through the night in my mind: If i can remember my dreams and weren't lucid I think to myself that I will "remember that I am dreaming the next night"

During day I tell myself constantly that I'm dreaming, and try to be as aware as possible - lock out thoughts. If I'm succesful I see things more vividly than usual. A good tip is to feel the air going down your lungs as you are breathing - this helps locking out the thoughts.

I try to do this as much as possible during day - and by knowing that it is a hard practise - I also know that I will fail many times - so I won't be disencouraged - but just take it up as soon as I remember that i should be doing it. If you have a whole day forgetting about it, just say nevermind! and get back on track - you are conditioning your mind, so just stay on track.

When I get strong feelings: like anger, sorrow, boredom, disapointment and so on (also including positive feelings) I think to myself "This is all a dream" and if I'm doing it right the feeling will dissolve.

When going to bed: I lay on my back and think of the memories from the day - and think about the dreamlike abilities they have.

Next I say to myself: "I will remember my dreams, I will remember I am dreaming, I will do my practises"

Next i do some energy-raising - eg. some kind of purification breaths (as mentioned above, but could be anything else like "Robert Bruces" energy-raising methods) next i go to meditation (still lying on my back) and do this by emptying my mind. (sort of like doing the "calm abiding Zhiné without an object. I have been practising "emptying my mind" for 2 years now so I can do it without an object) When I can feel that I'm getting too tired (can be anything from 10 minutes to 1½ hour - the latter not so often...) I go on to the main practise of the dream yoga, which is what cygnus explains very well in this tutorial; So i won't go through them here - What is important not to turn anybody off doing them is like i mentioned before that they should be done when waking up naturally during the night - it isn't so important to do it on schedule, just keep the order right - and don't despair if you almost never get to the 4th practise in the beginning... (where talking months here...)

I'm very happy with dream-yoga so far, it much less of a hassle to be aware than doing Reality-checks and you can use it to get more quality out of your life as a bonus - to hard to turn this down:)

If you are serious about doing this I would also recommend "The Tibetan Yogas of dream and sleep" and to learn more about being aware you could do a lot worse than reading Eckhart Tolles "The power of now" (although he "lends" just about everything from buddhism its still a good read)

[Mariano]

I'm happy that you had your first lucid out of dream yoga, congrats!
I stopped dream yoga for now, and I can feel the difference of awareness (I'm hiper unaware right now, and I don't like it too much) but soon I will start again, with the day and night practices...
bye!

[TJuulsgaard]

oh come on Mariano... please keep up with the awarenes-practise. I want you to be succesful with this. I know it is hard work, but at least try to be aware when you have the time, and you will see that it isn't timewasting when you start up full-time again. Best wishes, mate, see you around!

[Mariano]

ep TJ, I like being aware.
but I stopped for a little time, in a couple days I will start with it again.
yeah, thanks, I also what to be succesful in this, because it's hiper hiper benefical for life.
isn't timewasting.
fighting time is almost impossible, the point is to know how to stay in time with the practice.
bye!

[cygnus]

sounds good, TJuulsgaard!

one thing i thought i might add: during the day i've been doing four meditation sittings where i visualize the objects of the night practice. for example, in the morning i'll end my meditation with a few minutes of focusing on the red sphere in my throat, later on i'll do the next segment.

this is good for me because it takes practice to maintain the visualizations without getting too distracted and it reinforces the sequence of the night practice... i'm pretty bad at visualization so i need the extra work.

[TJuulsgaard]

That could be a good idea, I might take it up.
I also have a hard time visualizing "the 4 objects" which you have to focus on, but I can always feel the different chakras being "highlighted" while trying to visualize the object there.
When I do the first practise with the throat-chakra it almost feels painful, and it can get difficult to breathe (not quite, but feels like it) but I've read that when beginning to open up chakras you could get this sensation with the throat-chakra - so I guess I'm doing it properly.

It gets even harder to visualize while waking up pretty "dazed and confused" during night, so the nights where I'm mostly hazy, I only visualize the color of the object - and feeling the chakra - but it would be great to be able to visualize properly. we'll guess Rome wasn't built in one day ; )

[Mariano]

I will start all over again.
Tomorrow I will start Dream Yoga, Dream Journaling, Meditation, Night Practice Of Dream Yoga, Reality Checks With More Awareness And Bringing On My Logical Mind, and as an added: Scanning Rooms.
so, I will Mix my practice with the real practice and a lot of more things, I just want to do it right this time, no matter if there are moments in where I don't have the energy to be aware, I will just give the damn best of myself.
and, from so on, I don't have choise, if I post this here is for something : I will do it, no matter what.

=)

[Mariano]

people people people.

http://img91.imageshack.us/i/xzzaala.png/

if you have troubly visualizing the chakras or can't see it.....use it!

bye !

[TJuulsgaard]

thanx Mariano - I thought about finding some pictures, but never got to it. Despite being very motivated i have found that my messed up sleep-schedule during 4 weeks of holiday have not been good for my nightly practise. Thank good the holiday is over by monday (did I really say that... ) so i can go back on the disciplined road of dream yoga :?

[Mariano]

ok tjuulsgaard, I would like to hear notices from you.
I'm on the 6 or 7 day of dream yoga...I'm patient.
I have problems with the night practice, I can't visualise the chakras, and I'm not sure how to do it.
for example, do I have to imagine my troath in 3rd view, with a red luminous sphere, and trying to feel it?

because that's what I generally do...

by the way, I noticed that yesterday, when I visualized it better and more, I have dreams that were more vivid than others, I think that visualizing this helps recall and vividness..

[Mariano]

sorry for double post (I'm afraid that nobody reads the thing above....)

here is more inspiration for visualizing the chakras, hope you can use it !! =)
I post these if you have trouble seeing or imagining them,...

http://img.jeuxvideo.fr/photo/01291554.jpg

http://elseptimoarte.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/harry-potter-and-the-order.jpg

http://usuarios.lycos.es/vicgalproduction/html/archivosadjuntos/lumus%20maxima.rar

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjYNyXmMFz8

bye

[cygnus]

i think the idea is to feel the base of your throat, see a sphere of red light, and keep your awareness on it. i'm not sure if seeing it from a 3rd person view would be effective...


oh and harry potter really doesn't inspire me to visualize better hehe. >_<

[Mariano]

the main problem is, how do you imagine something that is not on your visual/imagination range? I mean, is not in front of your eyes, it's in your throat!
or do you mean, "just visualize a red sphere of light, and feel like it's on my throat"

oh, and harry potter must not inspire you, but what he does yes =P
just look at those visuals

[bushi]

Drop your focus from your mind/eyes, down your face and down your neck.

Be the chakra. Think from the chakra rather than your brain.

Just lower your awareness a few inches.

[cygnus]

i think bushi has the right idea.

also, it should be helpful to gradually develop your visualizations rather than get frustrated by doing too much at once. for example, you could simply keep your awareness on each part of your body while falling asleep, and focus on a sphere and then a color when you're able to do that.


i've been having some success and i've improved somewhat with the practice (i'm comfortable w/ the day practice, but i can barely do the first two parts of the night practice). it seems that with this approach more so than others i've had a lot of moments of slight lucidity (aside from several normally LDs) in which i have sort of a baseline of awareness that has developed over the time i've been doing this. with other techniques i had never noticed this kind of change - it had mainly been non-lucid and lucid... i expect that once i can do the whole night practice i'll be having lucids at will.

[Mariano]

I don't really understand what bushi means, could you give me more detailed explanations?

[cygnus]

Be the chakra.


bushi.

[Mariano]

ok, I will try then, thanks!

[bushi]

LOL :D

That's as detailed as my brain can allow.

"Lower your awareness a few inches" is also a good one I thought. :P

[TJuulsgaard]

I usually get a strange feeling in my throat if i concentrate on it - try to imagine breathing in air through the chakra and imagine a red sphere in front of you - make this red sphere larger and larger until you are in the red stuff. try to hold onto this until you fall asleep.

I have also been having strange dreams with more awarenes, I almost dream about dreaming every night the last week, but without becoming lucid though. had 2 LD the last 4 weeks while doing dream yoga.

I also believe the position in which you fall asleep is important, I have woken up in sleep paralysis pretty often the last 4 weeks in the same position as i have fallen asleep in (the lion-posture I believe it is called.) I think the author of the dream yoga book - describes the reason for doing this both for energy-reasons and because you sleep with more awareness, just as if you would fall asleep lying on a high cliff you'd be aware not to fall down although you are sleeping. Problem is, if you are not tired enough it is hard to keep the same position to long - so I prioritize focussing on the red sphere and throat-chakra first.

[Mariano]

try to imagine breathing in air through the chakra and imagine a red sphere in front of you - make this red sphere larger and larger until you are in the red stuff. try to hold onto this until you fall asleep.

that's an extremely interesting explanation...thanks!!!

yeah? you have dreams "knowing you are dreaming" ...interesting..that happened to me before, when I kept a dream journal...I had one of these dreams every 2,3 days...they were very vivid...

you say you had woken up in sleep paralysis? that's good! why didn't you use it to WILD? I have to say that's an interesting thing, I have the sensation that will happen to me too....
what's happens to me is that now that I do dream yoga, I fall asleep pretty fast, without noticing it..!
ok, thanks!!

[TJuulsgaard]

No, not dreams where I know I'm dreaming, but rather on the subject of dreaming.

The times where I wake up in SP I was trying to call up a dream and go into a WILD, but couldn't - I think it is because I wake up to early, an hour or so into falling asleep, and my dreams haven't yet started. 2 of my WILDS have been done like this, but that was before my Dream Yoga-practice.

Just keep at it - I can definately feel a progression, stranger and stranger things are happening but now I have also been at it for almost 2 months - like you, Mariano, I have been dealing with discipline but I can feel it gets easier to keep up the practices the more it sinks into my mind.

I also do Reality checks many times a day - I look at the clock or my hands and say to myself "Am I Dreaming, and if "NO" I say to myself: "But its all dreamlike" and then go into "awareness-state" I will stop the RC's when the Dream Yoga really starts to take effect.

[Mariano]

No, not dreams where I know I'm dreaming, but rather on the subject of dreaming.

yeah, that's what I meant.

yeah, there are days in where I don't want to be aware, but that's 1 every 8-9 days =P!!

I also feel progress, I wrote it on my dream yoga journey...thread..
I thought you were at it 5 weeks....

but, why you say like me?

mmm

[baronbrocoli]

I'm thinking about starting with the daily practice now that I'll be back in school. Maybe just some zhine to start with then move on to the preliminary stuff. Dream yoga is such a complete practice it amazes me that there is a point where you can be aware 24/7 its just unbelievable for me:bowdown::bowdown::bowdown:

[Mariano]

baronbrocoli, that's amazing, it's good to see more people following this path.
if you need help, feel free to ask, if you need more information, you can search for the books..
=)

byee

[TJuulsgaard]

yeah, that's what I meant.

yeah, there are days in where I don't want to be aware, but that's 1 every 8-9 days =P!!

I also feel progress, I wrote it on my dream yoga journey...thread..
I thought you were at it 5 weeks....

but, why you say like me?

mmm

Sorry for not making myself understandable :) I meant I sometimes have trouble with the discipline in maintaining awareness.

I have been doing disciplined dream yoga with most of the practices for 5 weeks or so,but have been reading about DY and adapting the practices for longer 2 months.

@Baronbrocoli: You can look forward to this Dream Yoga - it will not come to you without a bit of discipline though, but the road ahead is more rewarding than doing RC's the rest of your life to get LD's - as in the western approach to LD's. although there is much more to Dream Yoga than LD's I guess it is the reason, why we are even considering doing this - but we will still reap all the other benefits along the way. GREAT!

[Mariano]

I have been doing disciplined dream yoga with most of the practices for 5 weeks or so,but have been reading about DY and adapting the practices for longer 2 months.


oh, like me! but my disciplined dream yoga is on my 10th day !! ahaha

=P

[baronbrocoli]

@Baronbrocoli: You can look forward to this Dream Yoga - it will not come to you without a bit of discipline though, but the road ahead is more rewarding than doing RC's the rest of your life to get LD's - as in the western approach to LD's. although there is much more to Dream Yoga than LD's I guess it is the reason, why we are even considering doing this - but we will still reap all the other benefits along the way. GREAT!

Yes I've tried DY in the past and it does need a lot of discipline. It is however a great mental training that as you said doesn't only produces LDs but a more awake state of mind(more tranquil as well). In my experience, I've always had more pleasant dreams, better recall and more vivdness if I meditate before I go to sleep (nine breaths of course). I still haven't started on the daily practices, I think I will re read the chapter before I give this a go agai :)

I especially love that DY is some kind of preparation for when we die, so that we can die and be aware of this fact, kinda like an LD :P

[TJuulsgaard]

Happy Dream Yoga'ing! Make sure to write back to inform us of any progress :)

[Lenovo]

Thanks Ed for the uplifting comment. It is good to know that somehow I could be of help although the thread is way old.:boogie:
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[cygnus]

Dream yoga is such a complete practice it amazes me that there is a point where you can be aware 24/7 its just unbelievable for me

yeah, that's getting into the practice of sleep yoga, which is pretty advanced. i don't think it's really been recognized in the west that you can be lucid during sleep...
and since death is regarded in tibetan buddhism as the greatest opportunity for achieving enlightenment (by recognizing the nature of mind/dream-like nature of the bardo following death) lucidity in sleep and dream is like a preparation for this.

considering i'm still inexperienced with the night practice i've been having some success - there was one night when i was able to focus on my third-eye better than usual and had a LD, and aside from that i've been getting several low-level lucids...

[Mariano]

hi!
I have more info for you!

if you have problems or something with the night practice, this is what I tried yesterday(but didn't completed it)..
have you ever heard of reiki?
I recommend googling it, reiki is the universal energy, by learning to redirect it we can "control" the way of this energy, and so, send whenever we want, causing healing, for example.
yesterday I had trouble feeling the troath chakra, so I thought "why don't sending energy to it?"
so, I put my hand on it, and started doing reiki.

I don't know if it's me or what, but I started to feel it in a incredibly way, also, visualizing it became easier, and had no problems to feel and merge with it.
it was incredible, like a super booster for me.
I will try it tonight again, and tell my results.

I just put my hand on my throat and send energy, I know I'm doing fine because I feel energy and the temperature is more hot(it doesn't burn you of course, and it doesn't hurt, it just feels great).....

bye!

[cygnus]

i've heard of reiki - that's a great idea, Mariano! that may help me focus on the visualizations better.

[Mariano]

I have a question about zhiné.
one must have the eyes open so one can see the object??
but doesn't hold the eyes open harm them?
I always meditated with eyes closed

[yuriythebest]

I have a question about zhiné.
one must have the eyes open so one can see the object??
but doesn't hold the eyes open harm them?
I always meditated with eyes closed

No. The wisdom behind this is that since we do not spend our days with our eyes closed, why should meditation be any different.

[Mariano]

thanks yuriy, but didn't understood, you answered NO to which question?

[cygnus]

holding your eyes open doesn't hurt them. when i do this meditation i focus on an object, then look into space, then close my eyes and focus on a chakra. of course you should blink - you're not forcing yourself to stare down an object...

[Mariano]

aah! ok thanks! I thought I shouldn't blink!!

ahaha

ok cygnus, thanks!

how good is your night practice going?

[cygnus]

i'm getting better - i keep having dreams where i say to myself that i'm dreaming (but don't become fully lucid) which i guess is a good sign. but that's really just a result of the day practice - the night practice is hard!

[Mariano]

i'm getting better - i keep having dreams where i say to myself that i'm dreaming (but don't become fully lucid) which i guess is a good sign. but that's really just a result of the day practice - the night practice is hard!

guau! congrats, that's good!
I must say that the same thing happened to me yesterday!
in the dream I was thinking "this is a dream, this is a dream" ahaha very interesting..
also I have a "semi-lucid" or I dreamt of "becoming lucid" but dindn't actually..ehehe
and yes, the night practice is hard, have you tried reiki, cygnus?

[cygnus]

i tried reiki last night - i'll see how it goes in the future. :)

[Mariano]

it was early in the morning (8.00) so I started meditation
I meditated for 20 minutes(never reached that long =)) and for some reason...my mind started to daydream, but I talk about the daydream we experiment when we are about to fall asleep, I mean, those daydreams we don't control, and are extremely bizarre, and when you experiment them, you think they are real.....
and, I must say that I was meditating with my eyes closed.
I just can't concentrate properly with my eyes open.
and I don't understand the difference, the main point is that you must concentrate in the Now, and don't let your mind wander.....so, why not meditating with eyes closed?

it was interesting.

also, it's a bit hard to do the night practice, but ....aAHH I remember...
yesterday I found something....EXTREMELY INTERESTING:

I was trying to concentrate on my throath chakra by doing reiki to him, but couldn't find the right position in were I am relaxed and without forcing my hands on the chakra....
so I give up.
then I started to feel my heart beating on my hands, for some reason.
and then a magical idea come to me.
I found I can feel the beating of the heart wherever I want(not in my legs, for some reason =( )

for example:

I want to feel my heart in my middle finger, I just concentrate a bit(I don't really know what I do here) and in just 3 seconds, TADA! I can feel the heart beating there, the sensations it's weird, it's like having a little heart there, beating for you =P

I wonder how is this phenomenom called, but I found it's useful for the night practices...

why?

just try to feel the heart in the base of your throat chakra, and when you feel it beating, just imagine it's the chakra(in the form of a red luminous sphere) and with every beating his energy moves along....
the point is that is easier to visualize something that you can feel.....
at least for me..

ok people, sorry if I'm not too detailed, is hard to describe, but I can imagine it has happened to you, so tell me how are going, tonight I will try this =) ( I NEVER NEVER began a night practice, I must say...xD) (only meditation and purification, but no more hahaha)

ok, bye!




EDIT

also, I want to add something.
I was reading that if you wake up in the middle of the night, and meditate for at least 30-40 minutes, and then lie again on bed keeping your meditation for 20-10 minutes(if you fall asleep is ok,it's not imperative to keep awake, but try to be aware, like in WILD ) it's 100% guarantee that you will have a lucid dream.
I read it in a spanish forum, and they say they had success.

the explanation is something like:
when you are falling asleep, your body is relaxing, and at the same time, you are losing consciousness.
but if you can relax completely(sitting on meditation) then the body doesn't need to relax too much, and so, your mind doesn't need to lose too much consciousness.

makes sense...I'm going to try it, nice idea.

bye!

[TJuulsgaard]

I can testify that last claim of yours, I usually have my LD's after meditating. The last 2 times though after doing the 3rd Dream Yoga night practise. It keeps your awarenes in the dream higher i believe.

@Mariano: I know exactly what you mean about feeling your heart in different places on your body. You can activate the energy-flow in your body by doing small awareness-practices whenever you feel like it. If you are interested on the subject i recommend the book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Work - a more simplified version of it (or rather an introduction) can be found at this link: http://www.astraldynamics.com/tutorials/new-simplified/index.html

The idea of us humans having an energy body may be hard to grasp for some, but I can see that you are already experiencing it by yourself. Also meditating on chakras (energy-centers) is also acknowledging that the energy-body exists.

[Mariano]

ok, I tried it tonight, but....fail!
I meditated for 40 minutes...the first 30 I had no problem, but the next 10 minutes my body start to itch a lot, but I tried to keep meditating, my humor started to get bad....
then , I tried to sleep, but I had to wait like 40 minutes!!!(this makes me think, maybe it was a EXTREMELY REAL False Awakening scene???) and when I fell asleep...non-lucid!
my dreams were linked with my bad humor at the last part of my meditation (error, I must not meditate if my body is itching, and disturbing)
so, that's because I failed...

TJuulsgaard....the subject is interesting, but I found very interesting actually feeling my heart wherever I want....=P
and, I just can't do the night practice of the chakras, I am always very lazy to do it =(
also, I'm not doing the daypractice anymore, I'm very tired of all the work I have done this last 7 months....I never had any LD...
TJuulsgaard, when you say you have LD after meditating, you talk about meditation, or focusing on the chakras?

I will change my plans..

I will wake up in the middle of the night, I will meditate for 20 minutes, then I will lie on bed meditating with my eyes open for at least other 20 minutes.....and then I will close my eyes, keeping my meditation.....

my mistake was that I felt bad, and I gave up in some way, that caused bad dreams...

[cygnus]

the day practice shouldn't be so exhausting, Mariano. i've found that it's effective to remind myself throughout the day that i am 'dreaming' and to be mindful - it's not very hard. i've had several lucids where i simply said to myself "this is a dream" and went from there (no RC or anything).

and here's something we might want to clarify: are the visualizations meditations in themselves? if you get lost in thought should you return to the chakra as the point of meditation...? it seems that merging with the visualization implies this...

[Mariano]

oh cygnus, no , the daypractice is not exhausting, but it requires effort, and when you don't have even 1 LD it's hard to do it.
but it's ok.
I still meditate, I meditate like 3 times a day, for 20,30 minutes...

I don't know if the visualizations are meditations in right....
maybe yes, because you are focusing on one thing, like meditation....
so yes, it's something like meditation..

[TJuulsgaard]

I see the night-practises as meditations, like the Zhiné-practice without a physical object. Emptying your mind, but visualizing an object and at the same time opening up a chakra. Thats basically meditation.
I find that I sometimes go into sleep paralysis during the exercises, and from there I ease up and let myself fall asleep with a focused mind.

I had an LD this morning, but the strange thing is that I actually decided just to sleep through the night. I really enjoyed this LD as i took myself time to go around marvelling at the sight of things, and using "telekinese"/Jedi-powers to lift things around. GREAT! I must say that i still rely in RC's to make absolutely sure that I really am dreaiming

@Mariano I'm so sorry that you still haven't had an LD, keep up the day-practises - but maybe stop trying so hard. It could be that you are so mentally exhausted, when you finally sleep that you go into a very DEEP sleep and just can't awaken awareness.

[Mariano]

I found that is very important to do purification and meditation before bed.
last night I didn't, and when I wake up, like always, in middle of the night, I couldn't do a little experiment(I will tell you later, ;)) so, I fell asleep.
the funny thing is...meditation is magical.
2 days ago I did meditation for 35 minutes, when I finished, I was very happy, calm, my mind wasn't making noises, it was incredible, like a taste of rigpa...!
yesterday I did meditation too, for 20 minutes, when I finished, my mind was still making noises, but for some reason, I started doing the day practice, it wasn't on purpose...weird...but when I found I was doing it, I just keep it.
then, 30 minutes later, it went, and I was unaware again.

I'm on a experiment, that I'm very sure it will work, and will help a lot.

bye!

[Mariano]

ok, In a few days I will start again.
I'm just stabilizing myself on doing meditation properly.
my problem is that is hard to become stable in the day practice, I mean, I do the day practice for 10 days, but then I felt tired and hopeless and I don't want to do it anymore.
but, now that I have found my bases, it will be more simple.
I have made a lot of discovering...like:
-feeling the heart in different parts of the body
-meditation in day, for some reason, makes me start the dream yoga day practice, in a natural way
-and something more, that I will tell you later, it's a little experiment in meditation.

these things makes my practice more personal and original, and that's what define me.
I'm always creating new things depends on what I'm working, and that's the secret.
when I create new things, is easier for me to work on what I'm doing, because it appears to be new and original, so that's better.

so, in a few days, I will start the full practice again, at the time I'm only doing purification and meditation always on the night, and when I can, I do it in the middle of the day and in the morning.

but, man, I have to be very patient, even so if I never had an LD, I have to be REALLY patient, but I'm afraid that I do dream yoga for 40 days and no progress arise....
but that won't happen, because, as I said, I found my bases.

good luck everyone! tell more results for inspiration!!

[baronbrocoli]

I've been wanting to start meditating in the morning but I go to sleep to damn late and I find it difficult to get up... However I have done nine breath purification breathing before going to sleep and I find that I feel less tired in the morning because of it. Its good :D

[cygnus]

i feel like I should update this thread - I hope things are going well for you guys.

I'm doing a lot of traveling now and sleeping crappily. I'm going to start doing some deep breathing before bed and train myself for better sleep. I'm having dreams where I exert some control but am not quite lucid - I attribute this to the day practice. The night practice still needs work but hopefully when I get back home I'll finally be able to make some significant progress.

And I'm going to use reiki again, Mariano. Maybe we'll come up with some other ideas on how to improve. :)

[Mariano]

guau cygnus, I hope you start your night practice again! try to feel your heart in the chakras, is a bit difficult sometimes, the first thing you must try to do is to feel your heart, then, when you can do that, try to feel every beat of your heart expanding in all your body, expanding in your hands, in your legs, in your head(this is easier for me)
then try to directly direct that beat to every chakra you want to work that night.
in time, you will feel the beat of your heart whenever you want, and will be more easier to visualize and to work with it ;), reiki helped a lot on this, when I did reiki on my throat, I started to feel the beat of my heart there ;) and that's very helpful.

tell me more about those dreams with control but without lucidity, how are them?
also, people: did dreamyoga improved your dreaming? did your vividness, lucidity, or something improved? how much time did it take?



the days here are very hot, and it's hard to meditate when this happens, something that I discovered is that is easier for me to meditate in day, so I will do it, to practice more and get better.
I'm not doing the dream yoga practice yet, because I couldn't taste too much lucidity, I just going to try some technique, at least to get some will.
but, whatever happens, I'm going to start the full practice the day monday.
I tried dream yoga 3 times, the 3 times I reached 10 days and then I get bored, but that's not going to happen again, I'm losing time, I'm losing energy, I'm losing myself.

bye!

[baronbrocoli]

I'm doing a lot of traveling now and sleeping crappily. I'm going to start doing some deep breathing before bed and train myself for better sleep. I'm having dreams where I exert some control but am not quite lucid - I attribute this to the day practice. The night practice still needs work but hopefully when I get back home I'll finally be able to make some significant progress.


cygnus, do you attribute this to Zhiné?

[cygnus]

baron, i think zhiné is what i have to work on in relation to the night practice (which i am doing, just not awesomely). it primarily strengthens my ability to maintain concentration when half-asleep (i.e. internal dialogue). the day practice gives me a lot of semi-lucids or dream control because i say to myself that i am dreaming - while actually stabilizing and having a good lucid is another matter haha. they're essentially dreams in which on some level i know i'm dreaming but the dream sort of carries on on its own - i'll probably start flying or having sex with a cute girl but i don't stabilize, which is the primary hurdle i've been working to overcome. (and by stabilize i mean going through a routine to increase my dreaming attention and thus lucidity, control and overall clarity. it seems hard to have a life-like lucid without this.)

so i could say that dream yoga has already been effective after a relatively short time, it's just that my ability to turn lucidity into stabilized mindful awareness is lacking.

and thanks, mariano - i'm going to think about that and try it tonight... i've been good at waking up throughout the night and doing the breathing practices... so i'm getting there!

[TJuulsgaard]

Hi there glad to see you are all still with it. I have been trying really hard to do my day-practise after starting at work again. Seems so much easier, when not stressed out. I'm working with kids, try having a silent mind when constantly being surrounded by kids...

I've had a hard time keeping up my dreamjournal and remembering dreams, but for the last 4 days I have gotten back to the root of things. writing in dreamjournal, and also doing prospective memory-training (from Laberges book) to get the fundamentals right. Then i have been doing more meditation during night. I do the chakra work as supposed to and when I wake up in the middle of the night i meditate like I am "WILD'ing" - but not for the sake of WILD'ing. I start of by pulling up the energy to the chakra - and then try to go into SP while focussing on the chakra - but with the intention of going to sleep gradually. Last night I drifted into a False Awakening and thus had a Lucid dream. I really can feel the difference in the daytime as well. When I have been doing meditation it is much easier to focus on the day-practise and keeping the mind still. And when doing this I can feel pressure on my brow-chakra - so seems to be some kind of progress there.

Cygnus about stabilizing: This have been my worry about Dream Yoga. Do you need the question "Am I dreaming" and RC's to go fully lucid or can you do it without. So I have all along been "cheating" and often looking at my hands and clocks/text asking myself if I'm dreaming. Then raising my awareness and saying to myself: "this is all dreamlike."

I see the dreamlike state of our life as being aware/unaware of the karma, that controls us. Not as if it is all a dream, BUT if you are unaware you really are ACTING as if it all was a dream. What I think I'm saying is that maybe RC's are necessary until we really stabilize "rigpa" - keeping our mind still for longer than seconds at a time. It is something we need to work at for several years to perfect, with daily meditation to keep us focus (if we ever get there...).

Dream yoga is a lifestyle - and will be worth all the work, when we start getting all the benefits.

[Mariano]

keeping our mind still for longer than seconds at a time

I know what you are talking about.
when I practice too much dream yoga, with much intention, every 10 days, I have a moment of rigpa that lasts from 30 seconds to 10 minutes(not kidding)
in these moments my mind is calm, doesn't make any sound, I feel happy...it's incredible! it's like becoming hiper lucid in Real Life... I love it!

[TJuulsgaard]

Yes it it great! For me it feels as if a "curtain" (or rather veil) is being pulled away from my eyes, I see everything more clearly and I can feel my heartbeat (or my blood pulsing...) and also get a feeling of happines.
Other days I have a hard time getting the feeling...

[Mariano]

itsnt enough just to try to fall asleep conscious and different positions? I found this to be more effective for me, every time I do it I'm more aware in dreams or semi-lucid, and it's something that I enjoy :)
I'm lazy in the day practice also =P

[Robot_Butler]

I was trained with the more traditional techniques. Honestly, I've found the night time practices to be just one way of doing things. Like anything else, you need to personalize them and integrate modern knowledge into your practice.

It is hard to learn this from a book. It makes much more practical sense when you learn this directly from interacting with a teacher. They can make it less prescriptive, and more personalized to what works for you. Don't follow it like a recipe. Try to learn the reasons behind the night time practices. Learn why you are visualizing a certain color, or moving your attention to a specific place. It is a system of symbolism to help direct your thoughts. If the symbolism is not familiar to you, you can replace it with something similar that resonates more powerfully with your own life experiences. No need to reinvent the wheel.

[Mariano]

of course robot_butler! the main point is to have a clear mind, the main point is to understand the essence of the practices, that's because I change them a bit =), but I don't modify the essence.
that's because for me is enought to change postures and be aware of my breathing, also breathing to the stomach.
everytime I fall asleep doing this (I don't directly try to WILD) my mind is more aware on dreams, or I have semi-lucid dreams(note that I tried this only 2 times), but I'm sure it will keep working, because it has a lot of sense.
I will keep you updated =)

have you seen the statue of the sleeping buddha? did you see that he sleeps with his hand grabbing his head? is that possible? I imagine that yes, I tried lying on that posture a bit,and it's not difficult or umcomfortable, even it's nice because my mind is always with the same awareness..... but I'm afraid of damage my head or something(not because my head will fall, but because maybe your head must be on a good place)
what do you think?

[Mariano]

I came to the conclusion that I can't do the day practice, no matter how hard I try, or how soft I do it. I found that since I didn't experiment any lucid dream, I do not have the energy or willpower you do have to do the practice.
so I will concentrate on only doing the night practice, meditation, and reality checks on day.
my night practice is slightly different from the original, I do not concentrate on color or something like that, I mix some of things I know will work, and try to bring my waking awareness to the dream(something that I do very good, I must admit...but to do it very good, I must put too much energy....if not, it wont work)
so, I will do this.
if you have any questions on my personalized practice, just ask.
ok, goodbye!