Slang Colloquialism: Saying Faggot Like Nigga?

[ClouD]

Strange title, I know.

Ok, a few days ago I was hanging out with this guy, and we sometimes call each other 'faggot' jokingly. So I was in a shopping checkout line and I call him a faggot, not with any malicious intent, just lightly and as a joke.

A bald lady turns around and glares at me, she says, "I'm gay and I don't appreciate that sort of language", in a very provocative know-it-all tone.

I was rather furious. I believe that intent should be the factor that deems acceptable use, similar with saying nigga.

The guy I was with basically said I should apologise as to not cause a scene. I wanted to tell the stupid woman that she was stepping on my ideas in confronting me so aggressively in contrast to my use of the word, not the other way round.

We ended up leaving quickly and I was furious about it for quite a while after.

What are your opinions? It's common in Australia to call someone a faggot amongst friends (at least with the many people I know), without malicious intent. I call my brother a faggot, not as a derogatory remark towards his sexuality (he has a wife), but just lightheartedly. Newfag and oldfag are internet terms that I also think have disorientated the gay connotations.

I understand her point of view, but it just seems stupid.
As an example, if a black guy said to a white guy "what's up nigga" and some lady said "I'm black and I don't appreciate that sort of language" with a provocative tone, I personally think she deserves a quick explanation about intent and then a "fuck off".

[Oneironaut]

Well, people who use colloquialism, such as that, have to realize is that the world doesn't revolve around their social group. When you take a word that has such powerful connotations about a certain demographic and start to use it because "it's funny to call your friends that, jokingly", you're going to have to accept the fact that there is a whole, wider spectrum of people who take offense to that word - not because of your, specific, intent, but because of how the word most fundamentally is used.

As you said, it's the same thing with 'nigga.'

Sure, not many people realize this - because it's not popular in mainstream media - but there are a lot of black people who would never use the word "nigga", or any of its forms, even though they are a part of the culture that uses it most colloquially. It is not a whole demographic that decides to "take back a word" (to use it colloquially, as a sort of satirical embrace), but a portion. So you can't just expect the entire gay community to not have any sort of adverse reaction when someone (especially if they don't know they are also gay) runs around screaming the word 'faggot.'

Personally, I'm uncomfortable with the whole idea of 'taking back' words that have such negative connotations. It hardly ever reaches its intended effect, as not everyone is on board. Not only that, but making the word more common hips more people to the word, even if it is those people who would use it in its original, more negative, context. So it's kind of a double-edged sword.

So, no. I wouldn't fault any gay woman for being offended, when two unknown people walking around saying "what's up, faggot?" (etc), if that woman didn't immediately know that those people were also gay and using the word satirically, because it's probably a word she's had to cope with being called numerous time, with much more malicious intent.

It's a lot different than a "black guy calling someone 'nigga' in front of a black woman who gets offended." You can tell that the guy saying 'nigga' is black, so that adds a little context. You can't immediately tell that one person calling another person 'faggot' is gay.

[apocalypse]

You can use the word 'faggot' jokingly if you want,
but you sometimes have to watch someone get all butthurt over it.

[grasshoppa]

There was a funny joe rogan bit about this.

He called someone a faggot and a gay guy near by was like:

"You can't say that"

"I;ll say w/e the fuck I want"

"it's our nigger"

"thats the gayest shit I've ever heard"

lol

[Oneironaut]

There was a funny joe rogan bit about this.

He called someone a faggot and a gay guy near by was like:

"You can't say that"

"I;ll say w/e the fuck I want"

"it's our nigger"

"thats the gayest shit I've ever heard"

lol

And, yet, let someone actually find something that personally offends him, and watch him get all 'butthurt' over it, as well.

Everybody is always fine with using a word/phrase, when it means nothing to them, but find a way to push their buttons, and they bitch up, just like everyone else.

[grasshoppa]

And, yet, let someone actually find something that personally offends him, and watch him get all 'butthurt' over it, as well.

Everybody is always fine with using a word/phrase, when it means nothing to them, but find a way to push their buttons, and they bitch up, just like everyone else.

Of course, but considering widespread use of the word...You think homosexuals can take the word faggot and gay back? No way in hell.

[Oneironaut]

Of course, but considering widespread use of the word...You think homosexuals can take the word faggot and gay back? No way in hell.

Nope. That's really my point in this thread, though. Those words can't truly be taken back, because they are already too widespread. What is done on that scale, can't truly be undone. So, no, I don't blame the bald lady any more than I blame ClouD and his friend for using the word and getting upset at her for having a knee-jerk reaction to it. When a word carries that much weight behind it, people aren't just going to forget, because another generation feels that it's time for them to 'move on.'

[grasshoppa]

I don't think faggot and gay words carry that much weight. They are used so frequently to describe something annoying or inadequate that the words essentially have multiple meanings now. Just like nigger, it can be seen as a derogatory comment to the black community or seen as the word brother, or friend w/e. It all depends on who is using it and how they are using it. I believe the latter matters most.

h3cQ67IkEOc

Gay, imo.

[Man of Steel]

Frankly, I just wish gay meant happy and cheerful again.

[ClouD]

Frankly, I just wish gay meant happy and cheerful again.

:lol: I feel homosexual every time I buy a Golden Gaytime.

[Marvo]

I think that lady was in the right to be upset, there's not much to say in that particular situation really.

In my school, some people have been hanging up these small posters that say
"Don't be a faggot!
Don't smoke!"

These posters made me a bit upset, since it's obvious that they actually mean
"Don't be a homosexual"
Don't smoke!"

Now, I don't really care, I'm pretty sure the people at my school have enough common sense to dismiss these posters as freshman idiots being idiots.

On the subject of using 'faggot' jokingly, my friends do that alot, and I laugh with them when they do that, but I don't actually use the word myself.
Kind of related to this, one of my friends' lastname is "Bitsch", and he's accepted that we actually call him Bitch. Even the teachers do it. We've never had any strangers call us out on it when we're in public spaces, but take yesterday, a friend of mine turned around and yelled "Hey Bitch, check this out" or something like that, and he was saying this somewhat right into the face of a woman. He felt dirty afterwards :P

[Lëzen]

It is in my strong opinion that the intentions behind a word are what should make it offensive, not overall use of the word. If you were calling someone a faggot with the intent of being derogatory, then yeah, they have a right to get offended. If you're using it in a completely different context, however, I don't see the major problem.

Some would argue that by calling something undesirable and stupid "gay", you're indirectly calling all gay people undesirable and stupid.

I argue that that's bullshit.

Truth be told, I use the word "nigger" around the house to refer to inanimate objects. So by that logic, am I saying that black people are inanimate objects? Uh, no. That'd be quite stupid. I'm sure some obsessed person out there could argue that my usage of the word is somehow pro-slavery or some shit. Fail to see how, but I'm sure there's someone who'll see that link. Probably doesn't mean it's socially acceptable for me to use the word, but I fail to care, really. It's not like I deliberately say it around African-Americans to stir up shit, so what's the problem?

Bottom line, people who take such great offense to words - because that's all they are at face value, words - are obviously too crippled by their own insecurities to think of these words as anything but offensive.

...Oh, wait, shouldn't use the word "crippled". That might offend a handicapped person.

...Actually, they might get offended by "handicapped" as well. Better be even more PC and call them "physically disadvantaged".

On a side note: I'm fighting to take back the word cracker.

EDIT:
A bald lady turns around and glares at me, she says, "I'm gay and I don't appreciate that sort of language", in a very provocative know-it-all tone.

...If I were in that situation, I don't think I would have been able to refrain from saying something like "You know what? Perhaps if you weren't such a freakin' dike, I might appreciate your stance a little more."

[Black_Eagle]

I don't think faggot and gay words carry that much weight. They are used so frequently to describe something annoying or inadequate that the words essentially have multiple meanings now. Just like nigger, it can be seen as a derogatory comment to the black community or seen as the word brother, or friend w/e. It all depends on who is using it and how they are using it. I believe the latter matters most.

h3cQ67IkEOc

Gay, imo.

Lulz. Totally gay. Makes me want to punch kittens.

I think that lady was in the right to be upset, there's not much to say in that particular situation really.

In my school, some people have been hanging up these small posters that say
"Don't be a faggot!
Don't smoke!"

Now, I don't really care, I'm pretty sure the people at my school have enough common sense to dismiss these posters as freshman idiots being idiots.

Unoriginal idiots at that:

FJV02nwwgzk

[Sandform]

I think Oneiron covered most of what I would say.

This woman doesn't live in your head ClouD. You should realize that those words are fine to use when not in public, or if everyone who can hear you understands your intent, but for all she knows you were using it as a demeaning term.



I understand her point of view, but it just seems stupid.
As an example, if a black guy said to a white guy "what's up nigga" and some lady said "I'm black and I don't appreciate that sort of language" with a provocative tone, I personally think she deserves a quick explanation about intent and then a "fuck off".

Right, except when you're calling a white person a nigga in modern society there is never any connotation that you are intending to demean the person by calling them this. (Well, in most scenarios) A while back I was in a thread with Oneiron where we were discussing a topic where the words nigger and gay also overlapped. In the past (and sometimes this archaic word still finds its way into common speech) a form of the word nigger was used to describe things in the same way that gay is used, and for the same intention. For example: My car is "nigger rigged." Using words like this is a systematic way of demoralizing the character of the people associated with these words. And whats even more offensive is that you can insult a heterosexual with these words and still be insulting an entire group of people that isn't even involved. Sexuality isn't a sign nailed to your forehead in the same way that race is. The objection to the use of the words gay and faggot are about the association of poor character with that orientation. To outside groups this is what it would appear that you are doing, even if you do have animumumu hair.

Yes, intent matters, but you are the one at fault here for using it in an instance where the people that can hear you have no understanding of your intent. People who actually do use this word to demean people will only be fueled by your use of this word without obvious context.

On the internet you can say fag all you want because it is asynchronous communication. When someone misunderstands you, you have the chance to explain yourself, in the real world the people you offend probably won't ever see you again, and for those who actually do use this word in an insulting manor, you will merely be perpetuating the use of such mannerisms as acceptable.

It's common in Australia to call someone a faggot amongst friends (at least with the many people I know), without malicious intent. I call my brother a faggot, not as a derogatory remark towards his sexuality (he has a wife), but just lightheartedly.
But the question isn't are you actually addressing his sexuality, the question is are you using this as a filler for words like jerk, jackass, weirdo, etc. Are you associating these words with people of poor character. Or even worse are you using it in the same context that people use words like bastard or son of a bitch, in a capacity where you are assuming that the person in question is not of the poor quality that the words used are meant to establish and instead you are saying that the person is too high in character to be such a thing and thus still demeaning the people that the words you used are associated with.

Of course with this last scenario it is hard to differentiate between doing this and doing the opposite of this. How can one tell the difference between using a word with a negative context and using a word to disassociate the negative context from the word? Of course anyone who knows you would know that you wouldn't ever use these words to be spiteful, but you have to be mindful that there are people out there that don't know you. You could offend people and perpetuate the kind of mentality that you yourself are against.

You're angry because you believe your intentions were good, yet without setting up what your intent is to all parties involved the effects of your actions will be equivalent to the effects of someone with malicious intent for all parties without sufficient knowledge of your intent.



Some would argue that by calling something undesirable and stupid "gay", you're indirectly calling all gay people undesirable and stupid.

I argue that that's bullshit.


Why then do you think the word gay was even chosen? Just at random? It has nothing to do with gay people, right? Nothing at all. The fact that gay and homo are interchangeable when describing bad things is also irrelevant. The homophobic people who started using this term just happened to choose those three letters when they were deciding what word would replace things like nigger rigged eh? On a side note, nigger rigged was just a crazy happenstance too. No ideological racism involved in that.

You honestly don't see how calling a person gay in a derogatory manor, even when straight, is demeaning to the gay community?

Or how people who have to say "no homo" after every little thing that they do that seems slightly gay (even if they are amongst only other males and there is no need to establish that they are straight) is offensive when it obviously shows a disdain for homosexuals?

[Aquanina]

She might have pissed you off but at least she made you think and inspired an interesting discussion. ;)

[Oneironaut]

It all depends on who is using it and how they are using it. I believe the latter matters most.



Gay, imo.

Ironically, you've kind of proven my point.

You called that video 'gay.'

Why?

Because you don't like the video? Because you think it's an abomination? Because its mere existence causes you displeasure, and you have to attach a negative terminology to it, and express your displeasure?

Why does that terminology have to be the word 'gay?' What you are implying is that 'gayness/homosexuality' is a negative. It is something that is an abomination. It is something that causes you displeasure. The mere use of the word (and the way it is being used) implies that its origin, homosexuality, shares the same characteristics.

So when you call something that you don't like "gay", what are you really saying? You are saying that it fits the term, which inadvertently implies that you have the same sort of displeasure with gay people.

(I'm a little pressed for time, and I haven't been able to read all the rest of the replies, so if I simply rehashed what anyone said, then I apologize. I just had to get that thought out, before I left.)

[grasshoppa]

Ironically, you've kind of proven my point.

You called that video 'gay.'

Why?

It was an attempt to be clever...What I imply by calling the video gay is that the word gay has multiple meanings from happy to homosexual to retarded/stupid/annoying, and a Hillary Duff commercial isn't going to change anything.


So when you call something that you don't like "gay", what are you really saying? You are saying that it fits the term, which inadvertently implies that you have the same sort of displeasure with gay people.



No, you're wrong. It has nothing to do with a displeasure for gay people. It has everything to do with the current cultural slang. Sure I could come up with another adjective for the video, but gay is a simple 3 letter word for a small brained ape like me and can be used to describe a lot of things.

[ClouD]

On a side note: I'm fighting to take back the word cracker.

:lmao:

I really do agree with your post though, I know it seems an aggressive stance to most and I do understand the other perspectives, however I believe that the attitude of not using it is more negative than actually using it.

I am associating the word faggot with jackass etc, and it's funny. It's funny because it has nothing to do with homosexuality, it's a laugh in the face against the bullshit bigotry. I believe I should be allowed to express myself freely in public, not determined to be a bigot through the words I use to mock the bigotry. That woman could see my intentions weren't negative, she applied them that way to herself. I call that attention seeking and self-centered.

Harsh maybe, but I strongly believe she is in the wrong for doing so. I don't believe I am in the wrong for using a word to mock bigotry, to jokingly insult a friend. I understand her perspective, but I argue that it is a pile of shit and what only furthers the negative connotations.

[Sandform]

It was an attempt to be clever...What I imply by calling the video gay is that the word gay has multiple meanings from happy to homosexual to retarded/stupid/annoying, and a Hillary Duff commercial isn't going to change anything.




No, you're wrong. It has nothing to do with a displeasure for gay people. It has everything to do with the current cultural slang. Sure I could come up with another adjective for the video, but gay is a simple 3 letter word for a small brained ape like me and can be used to describe a lot of things.

But you fail to see the motivation behind the word's existence. You perpetuate the usage of a word that was created by bigoted people to demean gay people because oh you're just too lazy not to be an insensitive jerk? Nice. Whether you intend for it or not you are demeaning an entire group of people every time you associate the word gay or homo with something negative. How do you think it makes the millions of gay youth out there feel when they constantly hear people saying things are "gay" when they mean that the things are bad? Not all of them are beyond their years enough to understand that there are people out there like you who don't realize what they are doing (and then even go so far as to deny that what they are doing is what is being done!) who may not feel any animosity towards homosexuals but follow the crowd and put homosexuality down because they don't feel like saying "that's annoying" instead of that's gay.

You keep on saying "oh it is a new word, it has multiple meanings." It isn't just a new word, the word exists for a reason, and it is because of a disdain that a culture as a whole has had for gay people for a long time. It wasn't "we need a new word for things that are bad, let's just pick some random letters and make a word." It was "gay people are bad, let's start saying gay when we mean bad." If gay is just a new word, why is gay interchangeable with homo then? It is demeaning to gay people whether you intend for it to be or not. Your argument wouldn't even stand even if it were only the word gay, but they use any word that carries the concept of homosexuality to describe bad things, faggy, gay, homo, etc. This is indicative of a deep seeded animosity towards homosexuality and to deny it requires willing ignorance.

I'm sorry, but just because the bigotry has been around so long as to be be ubiquitous in our culture doesn't justify keeping it around even longer.

:lmao:

I really do agree with your post though, I know it seems an aggressive stance to most and I do understand the other perspectives, however I believe that the attitude of not using it is more negative than actually using it.

I am associating the word faggot with jackass etc, and it's funny. It's funny because it has nothing to do with homosexuality, it's a laugh in the face against the bullshit bigotry. I believe I should be allowed to express myself freely in public, not determined to be a bigot through the words I use to mock the bigotry. That woman could see my intentions weren't negative, she applied them that way to herself. I call that attention seeking and self-centered.

Harsh maybe, but I strongly believe she is in the wrong for doing so. I don't believe I am in the wrong for using a word to mock bigotry, to jokingly insult a friend. I understand her perspective, but I argue that it is a pile of shit and what only furthers the negative connotations.

And this is only acceptable when your audience understands that is what you are doing, when you do it for an audience who does not understand your perspective then it is exactly the same as if you are a bigoted jerk. You offend people and you perpetuate the actions of those who are being deliberately offensive. If one does not have the knowledge that you are trying to disassociate the connotations of these words then it is exactly the same for everyone else involved as an intentionally homophobic person's slur.

(Wow, a whole section of what I wrote disappeared, anyone who read the following brackets must think I'm insane. Here is a rewrite of what I had originally said: ) The woman who responded to your words might have lived through years of bigotry that you don't understand due to your age. For her even mocking the insulting nature of this word might be disturbing. I don't live in Australia so I can't say what it has been like there, but in the history of my own country homosexuals of the past have had it far worse than homosexuals of the present. For her mocking this word might be like mocking all the intolerance she has had to go through, and for you it may be difficult to understand. While I'm sure you realize that homosexuals have been subjected to various amounts of violence throughout recent history, it may not be something you register when you are dealing with people like this woman. It is not the responsibility of the "public" to take your words and interpret them the way you want them to, it is your responsibility to take whatever heat you get thrown at you for using these words. You chose to use them, she didn't chose to hear them. If you're going to use these words in public do not blame the public when you have offended them.[Although, I don't know what the styles are in Australia, usually the only women I see that can pull of the bald look is black women. So that is why I'm assuming she is a bit older than you. Oh, but I suppose she could have been black too.]

[grasshoppa]

Ah fuck my post got deleted...

Anyway, In short I agree with that last part Sandform. I also felt you were getting a little personal there, but that's fine. Obviously it's a sensitive subject for you.

I never said these were "NEW" words. I said they have new meanings. Like I said before, Gay used to mean happy, Fag used to mean cigarette butt. Obviously like the word SICK they flipped the meaning of the word from positive to negative or vise versa. If homosexuals don't like the use of these words they should ignore them. If someone calls them gay or a faggot, all they have to do is say "I'm not gay/faggot I'm a homosexual." Just like the black people did with the word nigger. They didn't accept the term "nigger" anymore, and eventually it became a taboo word for people not of African or black decent.

But look, I just used the taboo word. Obviously it's not used in an offensive context and I expect that black members of DV understand that I was explaining something, not trying to degrade them.

[Sandform]

Ah fuck my post got deleted...

Anyway, In short I agree with that last part Sandform. I also felt you were getting a little personal there, but that's fine. Obviously it's a sensitive subject for you.

I never said these were "NEW" words. I said they have new meanings. Like I said before, Gay used to mean happy, Fag used to mean cigarette butt. Obviously like the word SICK they flipped the meaning of the word from positive to negative or vise versa. If homosexuals don't like the use of these words they should ignore them. If someone calls them gay or a faggot, all they have to do is say "I'm not gay/faggot I'm a homosexual." Just like the black people did with the word nigger. They didn't accept the term "nigger" anymore, and eventually it became a taboo word for people not of African or black decent.



Well I wasn't trying to be insulting, but I did feel the need to address the faults I find with your actions.

I don't mind disavowing the word faggot, but I could hardy disavow the word gay, after all organizations like the GLAAD often incorporate some form of the words gay and lesbian.

And I apologize, I didn't mean to mis characterize your argument with the phrase "new words." I only meant to point out that it isn't really about the words being used, it is about the fact that whenever the dominant straight group in our society feels the need to consider something less than worthy it seems to be the norm to throw in any word associated with homosexuality. It even goes so far as to have people use physical gestures which convey the ignorant concept of gay mannerisms. Hell, some people will go as far as to mimic their poor understanding of some kind of gay vocal pattern. This goes far beyond just a new meaning for a word. It is about the systematic degradation of an entire social group by the dominant social group via the perpetual usage of association of things that are bad with the subordinate group in question.

And the saddest part is the majority of this (as I observe it) in modern times is being done with homosexual males in mind yet it affects lesbians just as strongly.

[grasshoppa]

Well I wasn't trying to be insulting, but I did feel the need to address the faults I find with your actions.

I don't mind disavowing the word faggot, but I could hardy disavow the word gay, after all organizations like the GLAAD often incorporate some form of the words gay and lesbian.

And I apologize, I didn't mean to mis characterize your argument with the phrase "new words." I only meant to point out that it isn't really about the words being used, it is about the fact that whenever the dominant straight group in our society feels the need to consider something less than worthy it seems to be the norm to throw in any word associated with homosexuality. It even goes so far as to have people use physical gestures which convey the ignorant concept of gay mannerisms. Hell, some people will go as far as to mimic their poor understanding of some kind of gay vocal pattern. This goes far beyond just a new meaning for a word. It is about the systematic degradation of an entire social group by the dominant social group via the perpetual usage of association of things that are bad with the subordinate group in question.

And the saddest part is the majority of this (as I observe it) in modern times is being done with homosexual males in mind yet it affects lesbians just as strongly.

I agree with you. Ignorantly mimicking actions of a stereotypical homosexual is insulting, I think it's much more severe than using the words gay and faggot casually.

And it's funny you mention lesbians because I find that the typical anti-homosexual male seems to love seeing women be sexual with each other. Their actions may affect the lesbian just as strongly, but you're right, these comments are almost never related to gay women.

[Invader]

I believe I should be allowed to express myself freely in public

It's called "public" for a reason. The space is shared by everyone.
I think it's ironic that you believe she was selfish and just settled on "I
understand her perspective." A bold assumption.

Were you to have understood her perspective, Jake, a simple explanation and
apology (that she got offended, not that you used the word) would have
sufficed. You shouldn't have experienced anger at all.

Also, the concept of using words like "faggot" or "nigga" by putting them in the
place of insult-words in order to mock bigotry sounds backwards to me. If
you used them in place of compliments instead, it would make a world of sense.

[mrdeano]

elWV9tJRotA

This thread reminds me of this song.

[ClouD]

If not understanding her perspective Invader, perhaps then "I understand where she's coming from".

I experienced anger, because the way I said it was not malicious, yet she applied it to herself in a personal way and made me out to be insulting her directly and maliciously, without having the slightest understanding about me one way or another.

As for apologising for HER being offended, I refuse. She took something personally that wasn't directed at her, she butted into a conversation and assumed me to be a heterosexual bigot.

As for my use of the word seeming to be backwards, it might be if I wasn't attracted to my own gender. I use the words in a mockery of the negative context to display that they mean nothing to me. If they mean something to someone else, that's THEIR problem.

If I were calling her a faggot maliciously that would be completely different, but I wasn't. I don't respect any person that would instantly label me as malicious upon overhearing a word in a joking context, nor will I apologise for any offense self-derived. I don't care to think so much as to consider her past experience if she would not think so much as to consider mine.

I won't stop using the word faggot because some self-centered homosexual took offense upon overhearing it. She has to get over it, not me. The only problem she has with the word faggot doesn't come from me, but herself.

[Oneironaut]

No, you're wrong. It has nothing to do with a displeasure for gay people. It has everything to do with the current cultural slang. Sure I could come up with another adjective for the video, but gay is a simple 3 letter word for a small brained ape like me and can be used to describe a lot of things.



I am associating the word faggot with jackass etc, and it's funny. It's funny because it has nothing to do with homosexuality, it's a laugh in the face against the bullshit bigotry. I believe I should be allowed to express myself freely in public, not determined to be a bigot through the words I use to mock the bigotry. That woman could see my intentions weren't negative, she applied them that way to herself. I call that attention seeking and self-centered.

Harsh maybe, but I strongly believe she is in the wrong for doing so. I don't believe I am in the wrong for using a word to mock bigotry, to jokingly insult a friend. I understand her perspective, but I argue that it is a pile of shit and what only furthers the negative connotations.

I'm sorry, but language just doesn't work like that.

When you are into etymology - as I am - you understand that words do no just "poof" themselves into meaning. A vast majority of the words we use, everyday, are derivates. They "come from" another word, or group of words. Whenever someone decides to just make up an association, there is not some shift in global consciousness where it's ok to use that 'association' in public - especially when the word being used carries such connotations - and just expect people to understand that your use of the word is just some 'in-joke.' If you do that, you are the one who is in the wrong - not the person who's knee-jerk reaction is to take the word as it is usually meant. Take 'gay' for example. Why is 'gay' used to describe someone who is homosexual? Did someone just say "hey, I chose to associate the word gay (happy) with homosexual people. There is no real association, but I'm just going to make it so." No. Gay is usee because it is an assessment of the whimsical, more feminine nature of so many gay people. It is a play off of "happy" in that regard. There is an association. If you are going to make up an association, you have to (A) either find a way that the two words relate to each other, and (B) realize that people aren't going to react to you differently, just because you decide a word is going to replace another word - between you and your friends. Blaming them for not doing so is not a reflection on that person. It would be illogic, on your part.

Case in point:
A bunch of kids are in middle school. The teach overhears them talking about all of the 'heroin' they have in their backpacks. At first, she thinks she hears them wrong, and continues listening. Sure enough, they are saying it repeatedly; talking about how great the heroin is, and how they are getting more after school, etc. Concerned for the well-being of the children, the teach takes the proper steps in making sure the children's bags are searched and the heroine is found.
What the teacher doesn't know that these children had chosen to associate the word "heroin" with Pixie-sticks. Not the drug. That is all that was in their backpacks, but they decided that they were just going to call the candy heroin.

Did the teach over-react? Was she at fault for invading the kids' privacy? Was she supposed to just 'know' that they weren't talking about the original meaning of the word 'heroin', because the kids just decided to use the term instead of Pixie Sticks? No.

As far as it being the 'current cultural slang', that doesn't hold up either.
Slang terms, most often, are derivative as well. The words have origin. They aren't just random words used to exploit associations that don't exist.

When someone calls money "cheese", it's not just some random word thrown in place of the word money. It has an association. It stacks, just as cheese stacks. There is a relationship. That is how "associations" are formed. What you're doing, if you are just "making an association" is the equivalent of calling a television set a "bottle", and getting mad when somebody looks at you and asks "...what the fuck are you talking about?"

When you call someon a "fucking Jew" (as is a popular slang term, nowadays), are you saying that that person is actually Jewish? No. You are, in essense, calling them a tightwad. A prude. A shrewd motherfucker; which is the widespread, prejudiced stereotype that has been given to Jewish people.

Grasshoppa, when you said "What I imply by calling the video gay is that the word gay has multiple meanings, from happy to homosexual to retarded/stupid/annoying", you are ignoring why it has those meanings. They are all derivitives. It just doesn't "suddenly" mean retarded/stupid/annoying. Those associations have origin, and I already explained why the word "gay" is associated with such negative feelings, in my last post.

Take "Jackass", for example. Even that slang term is derivitive. You are calling someone a "stupid, braying animal." It has an association with a real jackass (the animal). When you make an 'association' between two words, there has to be a relationship (unless you want to just keep it as an in-joke between you and your friends, in which case you can call a tree a 'vibrator', for all I care). But even if there is one, you can't expect your own little pet definitions to be just passively received by the public, especially when the words/actions you are using have a history of denoting such negativity.

So, I ask both of you:
What exactly is the "association" you are making between 'faggot' and 'jackass? How are the two related? How does it make sense that, out of all of the words you could use to mean 'jackass', why is 'faggot' the one you chose?

And also, how is it that you expect people to know of this arbitrary definition you have made up for a word that not only exists, but carries so much weight?

I really take no joy in making this assessment, but to do so - and to react in the way that you have reacted - is, in itself, self-centered and (for lack of a better word, I'm sorry, but) ignorant. If I'm wrong. Please explain why, with something more substantial than "Well, we just wanted to use that word. There is no particular reason. We just chose to associate that word, and that stupid bitch should have known better", because that is a crock.

[ClouD]

I choose to use that word because it is something he calls me in a sometimes more derogatory manner. It means nothing to me and I want him to understand that we are on equal ground regardless of sexuality. I didn't literally think that at the specific time, but it is the basis of why I call him a faggot, 'jokingly', over jackass or idiot.

The use of the word in the joking context is not just between me and my friends. It's widespread amongst teens around the world, and very prominent on the internet in many places, not with the intent to insinuate that homosexuality is negative but used because of the insulting connotations. I know kids who are in primary school around here that say faggot without even relating negative implications with homosexuality. Not saying that that is so common that it's a social trend, but as just an example of the slang usage around here.

You really cannot say that there is not any social understanding that it is used as slang, not just made up. This woman knew it was slang to begin with, and did not consider that I wasn't being derogatory to homosexuals. I did not relate the word faggot to homosexuality in any negative way at the time, which was obvious. She carried her own (and which would also be some others') negative connotations and possibly experience with the word and applied it to my usage, portraying me as a bigot. I think it's more negative to discourage usage of the word rather than accepting it in it's current state, especially within the context I used it. I do get that it's also used in a negative way, and often with those connotations deliberately.

Who's attaching these connotations though? Socially it's use is in limbo, such as the word "nigga". Would you be insulted by overhearing casual use of the word nigga amongst darkly skinned people? Sure, I'm not obviously homosexual, but neither was she until she announced it to the entire shopping checkout line. If it were white people saying "what's up nigga" to each other, would you even be insulted then, enough to warrant you speaking up about it and telling the guy he shouldn't say it? I'd say that's stupid and ignorant of social use if so.
It may be different with 'faggot' since it's still used in a derogatory way instead of affectionate, even if jokingly, but there is still that social limbo. Maybe it's not in social limbo for her or her friends but the understanding is still there that it exists in ours. She just disapproved of it.

Am I in the wrong for using it with the knowledge that there is some non-acceptance of it's even joking use in public because of negative connotations? Is she in the wrong for kicking up about it (and insinuating I am a bigot) with the knowledge that there is some acceptance of it's joking use in public in the face of negative connotations? I didn't know her intent, she didn't know mine.

I don't believe I am wrong for doing so, because of my intent to begin with, regardless of her knowledge of that. I understand that even so my actions may be against those who apply the negative connotations, but believe that is their choice to do so. I don't believe she is wrong for not understanding my intent, but I believe she is wrong because of her negative personal actions and application of the negative connotations.

Basically, I was using the word for positive reasons and jokingly (she could see it was a joke). She may have had positive reasons for disputing, but the connotations she applied were negative to herself and myself. Both of us may have been promoting freedom in the face of adversity, but she was arrogant enough to make it personal and automatically make me out publicly as the bad guy.

[Invader]

I experienced anger, because the way I said it was not malicious, yet she applied it to herself in a personal way and made me out to be insulting her directly and maliciously, without having the slightest understanding about me one way or another.

Then perhaps you ought to have explained that to her. When others
misunderstand you, even if they are butting into a conversation that
doesn't involve them, a little clarification can go a long way. It may have
helped her "get over it" as you so put it. A hassle for you, and an
inconvenience at the least, but it couldn't have been so hard to converse
with another human being to make a point. Of course your language wasn't
directed at her, but it doesn't need to be in order to be offensive. I don't
think it's easy to understand that your use of the word is meant to be a
mockery of the bigots, though I already made my opinion on that clear.


I use the words in a mockery of the negative context to display that they mean nothing to me.

Again, if the word meant 'nothing' it would be more appropriately used as a
compliment if its original usage was derogatory. I cannot understand how the
word can be made to mean nothing if your still using it in the place of other
insult words. The word 'faggot' (or any other derogative word) still retains it's
negativity, especially in a joke. Remember that the kind of jokes that tease
are jokes because the literal meaning is negative. If you understood the
word faggot to be positive or meaningless, the phrase using the word wouldn't
be called a joke. There would be no need.

[mini0991]

I'm bisexual and frankly I don't care what people call me. If you want to insult me based on who I fuck, are you that bright to begin with? Besides, I've also been told I have an "intimidating" body, so I suppose nobody would insult me to begin with. But really, I don't give a shit. You're the one who looks like an idiot insulting someone about their sexual orientation in a decade outside the 50s.

That being said, I also fully see "faggot" being "re-claimed" as "our word," much like "nigga." Already kind of happened with "queer."

[Sandform]

Basically, I was using the word for positive reasons and jokingly (she could see it was a joke). She may have had positive reasons for disputing, but the connotations she applied were negative to herself and myself. Both of us may have been promoting freedom in the face of adversity, but she was arrogant enough to make it personal and automatically make me out publicly as the bad guy.

Did she understand what kind of joke you were making? Because a majority of people I observe who use the word faggot jokingly are not trying to disassociate it with it's negative meaning, they are using it in the same fashion as someone might call a friend of theirs a son of a bitch. The disassociation for most people is not between the word and its meaning but instead between the meaning of the word and the person they are using it against. Which is why the people you observe who seemingly aren't using it with malicious intent might not be using it with malicious intent, but only because they are saying that their friend is not this thing so that instead he must be better than this thing and thus the joke from absurdity is created. It is very hard to distinguish between this and the joke you are making, which is also a joke from absurdity.

It isn't the responsibility of those around you to choose from the many different ways that you could have been using it and then magically decide which one was actually happening. I sincerely doubt that you had provided enough context for her to understand not only that it was a joke, but also exactly what kind of joke it was.

[Oneironaut]

(This post only looks huge because of all the quotes. :P)


The use of the word in the joking context is not just between me and my friends. It's widespread amongst teens around the world, and very prominent on the internet in many places, not with the intent to insinuate that homosexuality is negative but used because of the insulting connotations. I know kids who are in primary school around here that say faggot without even relating negative implications with homosexuality. Not saying that that is so common that it's a social trend, but as just an example of the slang usage around here.
[Emphasis mine]

And you realize that, by nature, the older generations are not immediately aware of the (often callous) nature of teen culture, yes? How old was this woman? That word has probably been used against her culture throughout her entire life, and since it's become a popular "in-joke" among youth, within the past couple of years, you will fault her for not knowing that? Or not understanding? You say you know kids in primary school who say faggot without even relating it to homosexuality? I challenge that those kids who say it say it because their friends say it, and their friends' friends say it; none of whom actually say it while knowing the origin of the colloquialism. They don't ask for any reason behind why the word is so popular. They just repeat it, because "everybody else is doing it." Not much different from someone who uses the word "jackass" without knowing (or acknowledging) its true association with an actual jackass (animal).


You really cannot say that there is not any social understanding that it is used as slang, not just made up. This woman knew it was slang to begin with, and did not consider that I wasn't being derogatory to homosexuals. I did not relate the word faggot to homosexuality in any negative way at the time, which was obvious. She carried her own (and which would also be some others') negative connotations and possibly experience with the word and applied it to my usage, portraying me as a bigot. I think it's more negative to discourage usage of the word rather than accepting it in it's current state, especially within the context I used it. I do get that it's also used in a negative way, and often with those connotations deliberately.

And maybe she didn't consider that you weren't being derogatory to homosexuals. She had reason not to. That reason is because that word has meant something solid, for God knows how long. And all of a sudden, here comes this younger generation that had attached a completely unrelated meaning onto what has been a very hateful and derogatory word for probably her entire lifetime, and she is just expected to both understand and accept it? I actually don't blame her at all. You try to make it seem as if only "some people" hold that negative association with the word. As if there is a minority who understand the word to be such a hateful slur. It would be like a 40 year old Asian getting upset because two young kids are running around a store saying "quit being such a fucking gook!" to each other, and then those kids getting mad because the adult got mad. It shows complete disrespect and insensitivity toward the adult, on the part of the children, in exchange for a bit of comic relief. The word faggot is not "also used in a negative way". It is primarily used in a negative way.

If your friend has a sudden brainfart, you can't say "God, you're such a fucking retard" and not expect the actually mentally handicapped person standing a few feet away to not get offended by it. Actually, even that would make a little more sense, because there is a real association there. (Your friend is acting slow, so calling him a 'retard', while insensitive, can actually be argued as to be a fitting tag.) The same can't be said for your friend being a jackass and you calling him a faggot. There is no association (aside from the one I pointed out earlier, that you apparently disagree with).


Who's attaching these connotations though? Socially it's use is in limbo, such as the word "nigga". Would you be insulted by overhearing casual use of the word nigga amongst darkly skinned people? Sure, I'm not obviously homosexual, but neither was she until she announced it to the entire shopping checkout line. If it were white people saying "what's up nigga" to each other, would you even be insulted then, enough to warrant you speaking up about it and telling the guy he shouldn't say it? I'd say that's stupid and ignorant of social use if so.
It may be different with 'faggot' since it's still used in a derogatory way instead of affectionate, even if jokingly, but there is still that social limbo. Maybe it's not in social limbo for her or her friends but the understanding is still there that it exists in ours. She just disapproved of it.

Within your own social group, it's probably in limbo, because there has been another, fresh, arbitrary definition tacked onto it (one that I still say stems from those negative connotations, and continues to exploit them). But to the majority of the world - and, most importantly, the cultural group most affected by the term - its meaning is pretty concrete. You can't even relate it to 'nigga' in that context, because "what's up nigga?" is a term of indearment. You, yourself, just said that you used the word "faggot" to your friend as a mock insult. The intents are inherently (and audibly) different. It is the difference between saying "what up, nigga" (what's up, man?) and "what's up, you fucking bitch?" Two completely different intents. They may not be malicious, but such is only apparently to the persons talking, and their own social group - not the majority of others, who know the words being used to have completely different meanings.


Am I in the wrong for using it with the knowledge that there is some non-acceptance of it's even joking use in public because of negative connotations? Is she in the wrong for kicking up about it (and insinuating I am a bigot) with the knowledge that there is some acceptance of it's joking use in public in the face of negative connotations? I didn't know her intent, she didn't know mine.

Neither of you are "wrong" for the word's usage, or the misunderstanding. Where I figure you are wrong is in ranting about this "stupid, self-centered woman" (not your exact words), who took offense to your playful - and probably not immediately and obviously facetious - usage of an admittedly (even by your own admission) offensive word, and a complete disregard for why she acted the way she did. Did you talk to this woman, after she lashed out? Do you acknowledge that maybe her generation is a bit "out of the loop?" Did you explain to her that the word, as you used it, was not necessarily meant in the way that she thought it was? Whether you did or didn't is actually kind of irrelevant. The thread goes to show that you were completely insensitive to her interpretation, which (given that the word, in it's most negative, derogatory state, is widely the most common) is a bit wrong, IMO.


I don't believe I am wrong for doing so, because of my intent to begin with, regardless of her knowledge of that. I understand that even so my actions may be against those who apply the negative connotations, but believe that is their choice to do so. I don't believe she is wrong for not understanding my intent, but I believe she is wrong because of her negative personal actions and application of the negative connotations.

It's not someone's "choice" to misunderstand that your generation has taken a very powerfully insulting word and made a joke out of it. That's like saying a little old lady from Arkansas is at fault for not knowing what "LOL" or "LMFAO" or "PWNT" means - only a lot more personal.


Basically, I was using the word for positive reasons and jokingly (she could see it was a joke). She may have had positive reasons for disputing, but the connotations she applied were negative to herself and myself. Both of us may have been promoting freedom in the face of adversity, but she was arrogant enough to make it personal and automatically make me out publicly as the bad guy.

And some might say that you were arrogant in assuming that she should just shut her mouth, when some young kids were throwing around an obviously painfully insulting word in her presence, as if to imply that your 'colloquial' use of the word faggot is somehow supposed to be as obvious as the, exponentially more universal, hateful usage.

Whether you all were wrong for using the word colloquially could be debated, ad infinitum. Where I figure you were wrong is in completely disregarding her point of view, and the fact that she had reason to react in the way that she did.