NIHILISM, the big, backwards, N.

[Berserk Exodus]

1. Philosophy.

An extreme form of skepticism that denies all existence.

A doctrine holding that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated.

2. Rejection of all distinctions in moral or religious value and a willingness to repudiate all previous theories of morality or religious belief.

3. The belief that destruction of existing political or social institutions is necessary for future improvement.

4. A diffuse, revolutionary movement of mid 19th-century Russia that scorned authority and tradition and believed in reason, materialism, and radical change in society and government through terrorism and assassination.

---------

All of these definitions are correct except for 1. A Nihilist realizes that this all may be a sham, existentially that is, but also realizes that there's more of a probability that it is not a faked realm.

What are your thoughts of this great beast of Nihilism?

[Lowercase Society]

it depends on what kind of beast it really is...


There is a fist pressing against
Anyone who thinks something compelling.
Our intuit were taught to deny, and our soul were told is for selling[/b]

[Berserk Exodus]

A Nihilism reference source.

www.counter-order.com (http://www.counter-order.com)

A good research website on general topics of society, a sister website of Counter-Order.

www.holology.com (http://www.holology.com)

[jacobo]

Philosophy, n. A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing.

-Ambrose Bierce

:D but i love it anyway. :D

[Berserk Exodus]

Everything's deeper than the definition in "Webster's dictionary".

Look into it until you form your opinions.

[jacobo]

that was a definition writen by ambrose bierce. its from his book, the devil's dictionary. hardly websters. i suggest you pick it up, its great... if you're cynical.

[Lucius]

When I read point 2,3 and 4 I think I dont like it at all..

"Rejection of all distinctions in moral or religious value and a willingness to repudiate all previous theories of morality or religious belief. "

Where would it go to with the world? If there were no longer religous or moral values it would pretty much turn into the negative energy whole I mentioned earlier somewhere..people would not care for eachother anymore, not help eachother anymore, be selfish like mad..life would be empty without religion aswell..nobody would have a greater goal in life and nothing would be "wrong" and people would pretty much go on killings sprees,rape all around, steal all around and so on. No, definetly not good.

"The belief that destruction of existing political or social institutions is necessary for future improvement. "

Combined with the above, complete chaos and damnation for the entire plane. No more laws? The right of the strongest? That would result in 90% of the planet living in poverty in the end and a few elite rule all.
No more justice..no more social security..and so on. No.

Words such as: materialism, change trough through terrorism and assassination.

Cmmon materialism is the most corrupted and bad thing there is. People are corrupted by materialism and grow selfish, attached to material things, and would do everything for money and power. That combined with terrorism and asasssination, thats absurd..negative energy i say..

There are so much more important things in life..love,hope,compassion,friendship, faith,justice,kindness,being helpful,caring for eachother,spiritual growth..and so on. I cant see what people could see in this philosophy. Its almost..evil.

[Berserk Exodus]

Where would it go to with the world? If there were no longer religous or moral values it would pretty much turn into the negative energy whole I mentioned earlier somewhere..people would not care for eachother anymore, not help eachother anymore, be selfish like mad..life would be empty without religion aswell..nobody would have a greater goal in life and nothing would be \"wrong\" and people would pretty much go on killings sprees,rape all around, steal all around and so on. No, definetly not good. [/b]

Who decides what is good and evil, you? NO, it would not mean \"killing sprees, rape all around\" because this kind of stuff gets you killed, dumb ass. That's the real reason why people don't do it, not because it's \"wrong\". And what's wrong with selfishness? Everything a person does helps them in some form or another.

Combined with the above, complete chaos and damnation for the entire plane. No more laws? The right of the strongest? That would result in 90% of the planet living in poverty in the end and a few elite rule all.
No more justice..no more social security..and so on. No. [/b]

Once again, you are an idiot. If a society is too flawed, like our own, Nihilism supports the destruction of it. Out of the ashes of the old, a new, better society can be created because all the social and political burnt crust that has been formed from the past will have been torn off the pie. This does not mean \"No rule\" or \"No laws\", that is anarchy. Only laws that make sense would be in place. Think would you?

Cmmon materialism is the most corrupted and bad thing there is. People are corrupted by materialism and grow selfish, attached to material things, and would do everything for money and power. That combined with terrorism and asasssination, thats absurd..negative energy i say..

There are so much more important things in life..love,hope,compassion,friendship, faith,justice,kindness,being helpful,caring for eachother,spiritual growth..and so on. I cant see what people could see in this philosophy. Its almost..evil.[/b]

You have to make sacrifices to make the world a better place. Have you ever heard of the terms Anomie and social decay? Moreover, all the values you just stated are your own. Yes, I do follow these values, all except for faith.

[Lucius]

"Who decides what is good and evil, you? NO, it would not mean "killing sprees, rape all around" because this kind of stuff gets you killed, dumb ass. That's the real reason why people don't do it, not because it's "wrong". And what's wrong with selfishness? Everything a person does helps them in some form or another."

I dont decide what good and evil is, but I think its obvious what is good and what is evil..those things that spread postive energy are good and those that spread negative energy are evil. I know that spreading negative energy is inevitable and that negative things can be good for your personal growth but it must be invoked by natural causes.
And you dont keep yourself from raping and killing because you get punished for it, you keep yourself from it because it IS wrong. I dont want to rape, I dont want to kill and if you would do it it you would not get punished for it I think your a sick person without self respect, and respect for others.

Once again, you are an idiot. If a society is too flawed, like our own, Nihilism supports the destruction of it. Out of the ashes of the old, a new, better society can be created because all the social and political burnt crust that has been formed from the past will have been torn off the pie. This does not mean "No rule" or "No laws", that is anarchy. Only laws that make sense would be in place. Think would you?

Tearing down the entire society will result in a dictatorship like society, think communism..facism..Stalin..Hitler..they tried to do the same!
And Im not an idiot.

You have to make sacrifices to make the world a better place. Have you ever heard of the terms Anomie and social decay? Moreover, all the values you just stated are your own. Yes, I do follow these values, all except for faith.

First of all I dont like to make sacrifice in the form of many people to "make the world a better place" while in fact this wont happen anyway.(see above)
And second how can you live by the values I jsut mentioned if you where to follow those theories??? It doesnt fit, you cant be helpful and caring for eachother if you tend to break down the social system.

[adroid28]

"Rejection of all distinctions in moral or religious value and a willingness to repudiate all previous theories of morality or religious belief. "

Berserk. It apears to me that your beliefs are not what you really want to be. How old are you? These kind of beliefs are at the extreme but in my opinion are false. You dispute the meaning of Good and Evil? How can you say that these are matters of subjectivity? If someone kills your mother, would you think that as a good thing? If you trully believe these things then you shouldn't take it wrong.

"The belief that destruction of existing political or social institutions is necessary for future improvement. "

The theory of "the birth from the asses" is quite old. Things might not be very good everywhere but to return to the society of animals wouldn't help. In order for evolution to take place we should walk through the wrong paths and learn from our mistakes. With your kind of philosophy we should start again, well, where do you thing we will end? We will end at exactly the same result. We can't built an Utopia, these theories have failed in the past. Coruption and ambition will allways be present, and will affect everything.

Moreover, all the values you just stated are your own. Yes, I do follow these values, all except for faith.[/b]

Well there are two posibilities:

A) You do. That results that your philosophy is false and even you dont believe what you're saying.

B)You dont. That results that you are a liar or not able to judge youself.

P.S:sorry for my English

[Berserk Exodus]

I dont decide what good and evil is, but I think its obvious what is good and what is evil..those things that spread postive energy are good and those that spread negative energy are evil. I know that spreading negative energy is inevitable and that negative things can be good for your personal growth but it must be invoked by natural causes.
And you dont keep yourself from raping and killing because you get punished for it, you keep yourself from it because it IS wrong. I dont want to rape, I dont want to kill and if you would do it it you would not get punished for it I think your a sick person without self respect, and respect for others. [/b]

You have to know human psychology to know WHY we have the distinction \"Good and evil\". Evil is bad for the society and thus something set as bad. Killing is not wrong, rape is not wrong, nothing is wrong or right, it's just what it is. I would kill if I had to, and I have very much self-respect thank you very much. Don't assume what I am.

Tearing down the entire society will result in a dictatorship like society, think communism..facism..Stalin..Hitler..they tried to do the same!
And Im not an idiot. [/b]

Hitler and Stalin were idiots because of their goals, it was the same as the old system exactly. Communism doesn't work because it degrades the monetary system and the upper crust control everything. Fascism does work until revolution, thus fascism works longer, but is not preferable to the people.

First of all I dont like to make sacrifice in the form of many people to \"make the world a better place\" while in fact this wont happen anyway.(see above)
And second how can you live by the values I jsut mentioned if you where to follow those theories??? It doesnt fit, you cant be helpful and caring for eachother if you tend to break down the social system.[/b]

Everything ever done, EVER to make the world a better place, any revolution, any time someones saves someone or helps someone is sacrificing a part of themselves. Revolutions and wars take sacrifices, death, to end and make for a better place.
I can believe the in values you just mentioned because I follow my own morality. I also believe that my morality could be flawed but it's beneficial to me at the moment.

Berserk. It apears to me that your beliefs are not what you really want to be. How old are you? These kind of beliefs are at the extreme but in my opinion are false. You dispute the meaning of Good and Evil? How can you say that these are matters of subjectivity? If someone kills your mother, would you think that as a good thing? If you trully believe these things then you shouldn't take it wrong. [/b]

I am 14 years old, yet, if I told you if I was 18, you would take me much more seriously. Why? Because it's age bias. Anyways, who decides what is good and evil again? If my mother was killed, of coursed it would be \"bad\" for me because it does not benefit me.

The theory of \"the birth from the asses\" is quite old. Things might not be very good everywhere but to return to the society of animals wouldn't help. In order for evolution to take place we should walk through the wrong paths and learn from our mistakes. With your kind of philosophy we should start again, well, where do you thing we will end? We will end at exactly the same result. We can't built an Utopia, these theories have failed in the past. Coruption and ambition will allways be present, and will affect everything. [/b]

It would be started from the beginning with a clean slate. We remember the mistakes of the past and try to steer clear of them. There are too many political strongmen now to cause anything good. If they rule, we'll end up in world war anyways, so it's only an eventuality.

C) That I do know what my philosophy means, and I am able to judge myself. But you just don't like the thought of Nihilism.

[Lucius]

Killing is not wrong, rape is not wrong, nothing is wrong or right, it's just what it is. I would kill if I had to, and I have very much self-respect thank you very much. Don't assume what I am.

It just depends how you look at it, rape will only cause pain to many people and seriously it doesnt make you feel better one bit, it wouldnt make me feel better, or ay other decent human being, and if you like to rape somebody that tells alot about what kind of person you are.

"saves someone or helps someone is sacrificing a part of themselves"

Sacrificing yourself is something diffirent then sacrificing others who did not ask to be sacrified for the cause. I value the life of those I care for above my own(especially my sweetie ^_^). But I would never sarcrifice somebody else, it rather die myself then.

[Berserk Exodus]

It just depends how you look at it, rape will only cause pain to many people and seriously it doesnt make you feel better one bit, it wouldnt make me feel better, or ay other decent human being, and if you like to rape somebody that tells alot about what kind of person you are.
[/b]

So are you agreeing that right and wrong is subjective? If it just depends on how you look at it, well, people look at things differently. So I guess we're just at a difference of views.

Sacrificing yourself is something diffirent then sacrificing others who did not ask to be sacrified for the cause. I value the life of those I care for above my own(especially my sweetie ^_^). But I would never sarcrifice somebody else, it rather die myself then.[/b]

Once again, difference of views. Nothing would make me want to die unless it was worth saving, for instance, if I had a child. Or a lover. I would sacrifice another if it was essential that I do so. For instance, war. Another instance, if I was going to be murdered, buglarized, or raped.

[Lucius]

I suppose it does depend on a diffirence of views..I gues I wil never agree with this kind of theories because I am to soft, I admit that. But in my eyes it just simply wrong..for instance I woulnt not sacrifice another if I was about to murdered,raped etc and had to option to sarcrifice somebody else.

But, I respect the way you are defending your philosophy and theories( I dont mean you created them but you know what I mean). You at least stay true to your philosofy. Even if I think this theories are just unacceptable and wrong..you at least know what your saying and doing.

Lets stop arguing for now..let others make some comment I know i will never agree with you and vice versa. We are two very diffirent persons, but I know I cant change your mind of course, and you cant change mine. Im suppose im glad not many people support this philosopy, but its nice you found your thing(even if it is wrong in MY EYES).

Good and evil might be subjective..therefor id rather say light and darkness..certain values belong to light(compassion,care,love etc) some alues belong to darkness(arrogance,greed,hatred etc) . Thus it is, I know you are an atheist, but even an atheist can make diffirence between light and dark..

Nice discussion though....just know my personality..im a occult,religous,over compassionate gayish(yes I admit i act gay sometimes) softy..thats what I am..not changing that ^_^ go light side ^_^

EDIT: dont forget happy, optimistic and hyper active(sometimes) ^_^

[Berserk Exodus]

Yeah, that's what you get when you get into philosophy. You can argue and argue and argue but no ideas change hands.

Go grey matter! Pun intended.

[adroid28]

I am 14 years old, yet, if I told you if I was 18, you would take me much more seriously.[/b]

I dont mean that i dont take you seriously but I knew you were young. I think its good that you have a philosophy at an early age but i also know from my experience that at these age you like to dispute on everything. Maybe my judgement is wrong. It looks to me that you are an inteligent person and i'm quite sure that your views will change with time.
You have to know that in life most of the time you take what you give.

It would be started from the beginning with a clean slate. We remember the mistakes of the past and try to steer clear of them. There are too many political strongmen now to cause anything good. If they rule, we'll end up in world war anyways, so it's only an eventuality.[/b]

I talled you before about why a Utopia isn't possible. Even if we start again you have to admit that its imposible for all the people to be in the same side. The result of that, especially after such a destruction will be thousands of civil wars. With the destruction of laws there will be total anarchy without a hope for evolution.

You have to know human psychology to know WHY we have the distinction \"Good and evil\". Evil is bad for the society and thus something set as bad. Killing is not wrong, rape is not wrong, nothing is wrong or right, it's just what it is. I would kill if I had to, and I have very much self-respect thank you very much. Don't assume what I am.[/b]

Good and Evil were a matter of subjectivity but evolution and capability of thinking let us make the distinction. If we start thinking like that again, we will return to the thinking model of animals where insticts are above our thinking capability.


C) That I do know what my philosophy means, and I am able to judge myself. But you just don't like the thought of Nihilism.[/b]

It's not that I dont like the thought of Nihilism is that I think its another Utopia. We have learned from the past and even if you believe your philosophy with all your heart, you have to know that there isn't a posibility under any circumstancies not only to succeed but even to be tested

[Berserk Exodus]

It's not aiming for Utopia. It's just that this society is so bad that a new one is needed.

If you're taking it from the aspect of nature and evolution, why is it that people commit mass suicide and torture themselves internally, yet it has no benefit? Why do people kill if there's no reason to? It's the anomie, it's the society of decadence.

[adroid28]

Well i think you are seeing things too pesimistic. Things aren't that bad. Yes its true that some things are going wrong but you'll see that changes are about to happen....
I won't take this further...

It was nice talking to you, I'm allways interested in hearing other perspectives :)

[Berserk Exodus]

Not going wrong, yes, maybe in some places, like in your cozy little house inside your cozy little neighborhood. But what about the millions of starving peoples around the globe because of ideological despotic rulers!?

Have you ever wondered what we don't know about the world?

[jacobo]

[quote]NO, it would not mean \"killing sprees, rape all around\" because this kind of stuff gets you killed, dumb ass.

chill out dude. you need to accept that people can believe other things. you can defend your beliefs but calling someone else a dumb ass just makes you look like the later.

[Berserk Exodus]

You're right, I just get mad when people don't see what I'm saying.

[hysteria]

interesting dispute.

Berserk, you seem like a very intelligent boy, but it looks like you need to think some things through before calling someone an 'idiot' just because they think differently than you.

[Berserk Exodus]

As I said in response to Adidas, that's just my illogical mind coming out, emotion. Don't think just because I called him an idiot that my whole debate meant nothing though.

[jacobo]

i agree with a lot you have to say, but not all. society is in decay, and we need a change... but humans aren't so perfect. greed is inevitable. you can say that greed is a "good" trait, and it is. to the individual... not to the society... in my eyes greed has no place in any society better than this one.

[Berserk Exodus]

Actually, Nihilism rejects a lot of materialism in what is referred to "Existential Nihilism". This is one of the more philosophical aspects of it.

It's just basically that nothing can be proven 100% and nothing materialistic is more important than your own being.

Remember Fight Club?

[hysteria]

Originally posted by adidas
...but humans aren't so perfect.

humans are perfect, perfectly human. but I guess it all dependes on how you percieve perfection. *shrugs*

[hysteria]

..."nothing" is something. so if you believe in nothing then you believe in something. god, I am so confused... :lol:

[Berserk Exodus]

Well, it's not belief in nothing per se. A better definition would be the non-belief in everything.

Could there not be a keyboard under my hands? Maybe, but it's more likely that there is.

[hysteria]

lol...I know, I'm just being stupid. and confuzing myself. Xd

[jacobo]

Originally posted by Berserk Exodus
Actually, Nihilism rejects a lot of materialism in what is referred to \"Existential Nihilism\". This is one of the more philosophical aspects of it.

It's just basically that nothing can be proven 100% and nothing materialistic is more important than your own being.

Remember Fight Club?

haha i wasn't taking it that deep. i was more suggesting that if you want society to crumble there are going to be people who want to take advantage of the chaos... *cough*religion*cough* :roll: we would just have ourselves another dark ages... maybe i'm not getting the concept here...

You are not your job ... you are not how much money you have in the bank...not the car you drive ... not the contents of your wallet. You are not your fucking khakis. We are the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world.

not a truer word has been spoken.

[Berserk Exodus]

Which I think is why we need more intelligent types like ourselves in this world. To prevent religious sentiment to spread, you see, THAT very reason is why you need to sacrifice for "the cause".

[jacobo]

this "cause" being the fight against organized religion? personally, i see more problems in our current society than religion. ignorance being one of those, but not necessarily tied solely to the church. -- you're on a crusade my friend. you're peeing into the wind so to speak. this extremist view that there's some sort of battle going on out there is going to come back to haunt you. i've accepted religion as existing in my society. i've accepted it as a fountain of lies, but i won't fight it. it doesn't bother me in the slightest when people say they believe in a god. but when they try to impose beliefs on me or others that's when i get pissed. everyone should have the freedom of choice...

[Berserk Exodus]

Originally posted by adidas
this \"cause\" being the fight against organized religion? personally, i see more problems in our current society than religion. ignorance being one of those, but not necessarily tied solely to the church. -- you're on a crusade my friend. you're peeing into the wind so to speak. this extremist view that there's some sort of battle going on out there is going to come back to haunt you. i've accepted religion as existing in my society. i've accepted it as a fountain of lies, but i won't fight it. it doesn't bother me in the slightest when people say they believe in a god. but when they try to impose beliefs on me or others that's when i get pissed. everyone should have the freedom of choice...

Well, religion is not my only enemy. Ideologies used as a control mechanism are too. Yes, I agree, the state of current society is just as bad. Sadly, hypocracy is a must with a Nihilist revolutionary. Only with the faith and ignorance of the Christian crusader can you be just as potent.

[Lucius]

"Which I think is why we need more intelligent types like ourselves in this world"

I think the world has plenty of intelligent people, but intelligence doesnt solve everything, not everything can be solved with your ratio. Besides, alot those so caled intelligent people are not very good for the world. I bet all presidential advisors are intelligent. I bet saddam was intelligent, I bet Osama was intelligent, i bet all dictators and tyrans and their advisors the worlds ever known where intelligent.
I bet all rich people and influential people are pretty intelligent, I bet most leaders around the globe are very intelligent. We dont need more intelligence I think. Most of this intelligent people lack wisdom,which is something else then intelligence. Also most of them lack alot of other things....and the worst thing is that most intelligent people consider themselves to be superior and highly developed and evolved human being(they dont admit it but they do) , while in fact they are not.(Im not saying a highly developed person is NOT intelligent..just in another way)

[Berserk Exodus]

Not trying to be mean or anything, but I think that people whom follow their own drums are more intelligent than those who follow a book.

[Lucius]

Mabey not mabey so, but what im trying to say is.. does the world really need more intelligent people?? not trying to offend but do you really think the world would improve much...so you think osama could work more effective if he instead of going by the quran would go by himself? Oh yes, that would be nice.A even more effectove osama & co or somebody like him *sarcasm* Intelligent people brings intelligent tyrans aswell..

[adroid28]

Not going wrong, yes, maybe in some places, like in your cozy little house inside your cozy little neighborhood. But what about the millions of starving peoples around the globe because of ideological despotic rulers!? [/b]

You dont see what i want to say. I dont say that all things are going right, i say that we can't progress without mistakes. When you want to learn something it is certain that you will make mistakes and you have to learn from that mistakes. You should not destroy the world and try another method.

Your philosophy have a point but when i say that it is a Utopia i have arguments. I talked about ambition and coruption. What are you going to do with these after you destroy the world. You can't posibly know every man in the world.

I agree that religion is a way to control the masses(not the religion philosophy, the religion use today). But we can see that in the new generations atheism is more spread than Christianity. Also some other religions that i dont know well, like budism, i think that their purpose hasn't anything to do with mass control.

I said:

I talled you before about why a Utopia isn't possible. Even if we start again you have to admit that its imposible for all the people to be in the same side. The result of that, especially after such a destruction will be thousands of civil wars. With the destruction of laws there will be total anarchy without a hope for evolution.[/b]

and

Good and Evil were a matter of subjectivity but evolution and capability of thinking let us make the distinction. If we start thinking like that again, we will return to the thinking model of animals where insticts are above our thinking capability.[/b]

You didn't answer...

[Berserk Exodus]

You dont see what i want to say. I dont say that all things are going right, i say that we can't progress without mistakes. When you want to learn something it is certain that you will make mistakes and you have to learn from that mistakes. You should not destroy the world and try another method.

Your philosophy have a point but when i say that it is a Utopia i have arguments. I talked about ambition and coruption. What are you going to do with these after you destroy the world. You can't posibly know every man in the world.

I agree that religion is a way to control the masses(not the religion philosophy, the religion use today). But we can see that in the new generations atheism is more spread than Christianity. Also some other religions that i dont know well, like budism, i think that their purpose
hasn't anything to do with mass control. [/b]

Not mass control? Think about it! It's an ingenious little invention. People are like animals by nature, what better thing to control them than their own brain! It's Ressentimente'. Resentment of self. Justice and guilt keeps everyone in check, allowing society to mesh through quite nicely. Upon Atheism and Buddhism and the like, they are still control mechanisms because they contain the "slave morality". They contain self-hate. My main point is, we need to find a way to have society, WITHOUT religion or false moralities.

Anyways, I'm not talking about a utopia. People, I'll say again, are like animals. Only without people do you get the "perfect society", your utopia. Animals are herd group by instinct, so justice, guilt, etc are formed over time as the connectivity and fluidness of culture because more progressed. So we're higher than animals if we act like we ARE higher than animals and spend all of our lives doing subjective and pointless function only to put semen in a woman's vagina and create a baby which makes the cycle go further?

[adroid28]

You are missing the point of what i want to say. Yes you are right about religion but all the things have depth and most of the times a good and a bad side(dont tell me again about good and evil please :) ). You have to see the whole picture of what i want to say and not concentrate in one thing at the time. You can have a theory for every little piece but what really matters is what you got when you put these pieces together.

We are not talking about religion. We are talking about Nihilism. I'm trying to explain you why i think that Nihilism is a Utopic theory and you can't convince me because in my opinion you can't defend your arguments.

I don't want to look agressive, remember that English is not my language. I won't take these any further because i don't think you can change my mind and maybe i can't change yours. So I'll read others people comments and maybe come back later. :okbyenow:

[Berserk Exodus]

A utopia is a "perfect society". A perfect societ is not attainable because humans are humans. We are talking about political Nihilism:

Political nihilism especially is a world-view that's rational, logical, empirical, scientific and devoid of pointless, extraneous emotion. It's the logical psyche that distills everything down into what is known, what can be known and what can't be known. It's the realization that all values are ultimately relativistic and in some ways the simplicity of nihilism is its own complexity.

Nihilism That conditions in the social organization are so bad as to make destruction desirable for its own sake independent of any constructive program or possibility.

An estimable and succinct definition of a (political) nihilist comes from Ivan Turgenev's 1861 novel Fathers And Sons, \"A nihilist is a person who does not bow down to any authority, who does not accept any principle on faith, however much that principle may be revered.\" Clearly a real, mature nihilist is a very serious person with a sharp, cogent mind but one dealing with a double edged sword that can just as easily lead to damage as to enlightenment.

So the two classes of nihilism overlap but Nihilism's Home Page is mostly about this second stage of 'political' nihilism for reasons of brevity, because the existential angle when not stillborn generally leads to political nihilism anyway, because nihilism isn't something to just talk about it's something you live, and finally because political nihilism has real world history and experience as we will read concerning the Russian revolutionaries in Historical Nihilism below.[/b]

[adroid28]

Ok!!
Where i say "Utopia" replace it with "something imposible to happen" and you'll get it, dont mind the words, look for the meaning :okbyenow:

[Berserk Exodus]

Nihilism has nothing...to do with...a utopia...

Nevermind, I can't get through.

[Serinanth]

You do realise you are basically following a book as well...

Its just not called religion its called a philosophy, it has a name and you are not the only one following it. So you are following some one elses drums at the moment, untill you build upon that foundation and create somthing that is your own, and you probably will not call it Nihilism.

Like I said elsewhere Philisophical and religious views all start from mass ideas, but somewhere along the way people create their own view of that idea. Some stay within the general scope of that original idea, others move on to another idea.

These religions and philosophical ideas are nessesary for individual growth.

You will have to excuse me I have yet to read much on Nihilism.
The foundation is that you beleive in nothing? This is an interesting concept I have read some other material and the kabblah speaks of it as well, could you expend on this for me? Or did I miss something and am wandering around in left field trying to play basketball.

I know thats about as basic as you can get where description comes and I am sure it is much more than that, could you explain this more to me? Forget the whole religion thing I want to hear about what is your foundation. and how did you come to see this way

[Mercubio]

I find it hard to give nihilists any credit because, like Descartes, the theory is seemingly unfalible. However, also like Descartes there is simply NO REASON to go there. I mean sure we can all say, you know the Matrix COULD be a true story, there is EVIDENCE to support that theory. However, that is a BIG jump to make and there is much more evidence supporting the contrary. Another thing to consider would be trying to have a moral (Being a platonist or a moral relativist or whatever does not matter) debate without using the words "wrong", "right", "good", "bad" etc. Just about EVERY civilization has had a concept of "the good" be it god, or virtues, or any other power you can think of. Nihilism is, in my humble opinion, a very out there idea with no real backing. Why should you immediately discard what is revered? Truth is the goal of humankind's collective reasoning, and perhaps it should be noted that there are certain elements of truth that emerge in EVERY human experience, even if that truth is articulated incorrectly. And of course the biggest arguement against nihilism is that the theory itself gives more credit to the entities it is discrediting. If everything is BS, then everything suddenly becomes INCREDIBLY true. My last point I'd like to make is one that does not belong to me. Its from Aristotle. If each and every action aims at some benefit (be it real or percieved) then it seems silly to think that human action or emotion is "pointless." If nothing else, each entity performing an action would at least feel or think that there was SOME point to the action. Since there would be no "real" reasons for action that one could compare their own percieved goals and reasonings to, each persons reasonings would be equally true. This meaning (at least in my opinion) that although the nihilist would be correct, so would everyone else. I'd also like to note that I am a newbie philosophy major so I could be (and likely am) very wrong about everything.

[Berserk Exodus]

Subjectivism isn't profitable, because there is no other perceived reality in our line of sight, we might as well not even consider one. It's logic, you don't see something, so it's not there. I like Nihilism because it supports the belief in your own morality. I've just realized this... You decide what is right and wrong. I like that. No one belting you with doctrines that don't even benefit the one who indoctrinates...

If all values can be translated, doesn't this mean that all values are relative?

[O'nus]

Originally posted by Berserk Exodus+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Berserk Exodus)</div>Subjectivism isn't profitable, because there is no other perceived reality in our line of sight, we might as well not even consider one. It's logic, you don't see something, so it's not there. I like Nihilism because it supports the belief in your own morality. I've just realized this... You decide what is right and wrong. I like that. No one belting you with doctrines that don't even benefit the one who indoctrinates...

If all values can be translated, doesn't this mean that all values are relative?[/b]

Ahh, sounds like relativism to me. I'd say I agree, with relativism. However, you also give off the impression that you could easily be a reductionist. Would you call yourself a reductionist?

I remember when I started divuling deeply into relativism. It was thanks to Grade 10 English and Hamlet:

<!--QuoteBegin-Hamlet 2:2
There is no good or bad,
but thinking makes it so.

;)

[Berserk Exodus]

That's kind of like post-modernism too, because post-modernism leads to relativism. I am a Relativist and a Nihilist.

I wouldn't say I'm a reductionist, I think there are some things that can be known and some that can't be known. Nihilism is a great thing because you determine what's good and bad, right and wrong from your personal experiences.

[Truthbearer]

If I had to determine what ideologies I follow, I would probably say I am an existencial Nihilist, anti-capitalist and a post modernist, among others.

The thing is, I do believe that the state our society has reached is impossible to fix. If there is something I have realized in my life's ponderings is that we are not really as free as we are made out to be. We are slaves to something that we cannot percieve, for it has been fed to us since we were born, making it hard for us to understand that it could be so different.

Most people aren't aware of it, and there I do disagree with you Berserk, its not because of intelligence, its because of the perpective that our life experiences have given us. There are many people in this world that are more intelligent than us, that do not have a clue about any of this. They have not lived anything that allowed them to go down this road of thought.

It really amazing how inticate it actually is, the system. People live their lives everyday not realizing that maybe we were not put into this earth so we could work our whole lives to buy shit, or even to survive. The truth is, there is plenty of time that we could be using to achieve some sort of enlightenment, or personal ideological peace, but instead we use it for things that do not truly matter. If you didn't get paid for it, would you still work?

They "reward" us with money for what we do, and all of our lives revolve around it. Before, when the concept of currency was created, the purpose of it was to facilitate exchange of good within the society. After a couple thousand years, that purpose has been completely obliterated, and now the purpose of it is to have as much as you can, for money means power.

There is so much more to be said about this, but it is just too long and I have said it too many times. All I know is that there is only one way to change this: Insurrection. If you control the masses you control everything. If this present society, or economical system was destroyed, then we could start all over. It will always be better in the beggining, the problem will always be corruption, someone who's actions disregard the needs of the group, and just benefits his own.

All I know is that capitalism is a disquised form of slavery, and that is the worst kind, for there is no other choice, but a revolution. But I fear it might already be too late....the system might already be too strong to bring down. Hopefully I am wrong....


P.S. All these concepts are very present in both fight club and the Matrix trilogy(thus my extreme fascination for these films). In fight club we see it more realistically, while in the matrix it is metaphoric. The machinery of society. In the sequels we can really see the extent of the system of control, and how it was never a chance to beat the machines, without destroying humanity in the process.

[Berserk Exodus]

:D Knowledge comes from your experiences. You remember these experiences and save them for later use, this is called intuition.

Fight Club was more about control of the masses than anything else. Remember "His name is Robert Paulsen." They took his words so literally, that he was basically like Jesus, but, this is what's needed for revolution. Control. As you said, you control the minds, you control everything. Even with physical force, if the minds are not willing, the control will falter in the end.

My post-modernist friend, if values can change and do change, doesn't this mean that values are not absolute?

Anyways, capitalism is all short-term gain and long-term loss. Capitalism is a drug, basically. I'm tired of Cocaine, I'll try PCP, tired of PCP, I'll try Speed, tired of Speed, and now I'm dead. It seems you're a political Nihilist too?

[Truthbearer]

Its not really that much about politics, its about a way of life. We all live our lives according to how we were taught to live them, regardless of whether or not it makes sense. All of our lives we have been fed ideologies, religions; we have been told we have to study hard to make something out of ourselves one day, to become a real profesional and make enough money to raise a family and live happily ever after.

But then I ask myself: How can we be sure that is the purpose of life? I would believe that the purpose of life would be given to us by our creator, and not by our another human. This system was created with that exact function: To give people a purpose to live their lives, and benefit from that.

Its hard to know when it all started, we generally don't see the beggining of a cycle and live to see its end... All I know is that, for some reason, perhaps critical thinking (combination of intelect with experiences), I realized that this is probably not the way to live our lives. We do not focus on any sort of inner peace or spirituality, because all we need to feel good is to buy nice clothes and other crap advertised in the idiot box....

That doesn't mean that the politics are not a great part of the problem, but they are by no means any solucion, if they changed. None the parties that have any chance of winning in most democracies are going to change this. They are as deep in it as any other person, and they don't know better than this. Even if they did, they would be opposing the gretest economical ideology of the world, which would most likely cause its failure.

More soon....
The truthbearer