Is anybody a vegetarian or a vegan?

[reverie]

I'm a vegetarian.

[Alex D]

I was a vegetarian, but I like meat too much.

[sitboy]

This is what I hate about vegitarians, they push there belifes on others. 'I eat helpless cows" just because some one does not follow you way of life does not make them a bad person. YOU EAT HELPLESS PLANTS is that any better, no. i am, not saying that I hate you, but please let me have my own way of life.

P.S. I have tryed to become a vegetarian many times, but I just don't have the will power

[Alex D]

Originally posted by sitboy
This is what I hate about vegitarians, they push there belifes on others. 'I eat helpless cows\" just because some one does not follow you way of life does not make them a bad person. YOU EAT HELPLESS PLANTS is that any better, no. i am, not saying that I hate you, but please let me have my own way of life.

P.S. I have tryed to become a vegetarian many times, but I just don't have the will power

Thats a bit hypocritcal, saying that you hate vegetariand beliefs, then saying that you were once one.

[dream-scape]

After having a number of friends who all either are vegetarian or tried it, all of whom are always sick and lack energy due to a lack of nutrients found in meat, I don't think I shall every try it myself.

I know that nutrients found in meat can be obtained other ways, but apparently not so easily as some people might have you believe.

I don't eat alot of red meat. Occasionally I do, but mostly chicken.

[sitboy]

Originally posted by Alex D+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alex D)</div><!--QuoteBegin-sitboy
This is what I hate about vegitarians, they push there belifes on others. 'I eat helpless cows\" just because some one does not follow you way of life does not make them a bad person. YOU EAT HELPLESS PLANTS is that any better, no. i am, not saying that I hate you, but please let me have my own way of life.

P.S. I have tryed to become a vegetarian many times, but I just don't have the will power

Thats a bit hypocritcal, saying that you hate vegetariand beliefs, then saying that you were once one.[/b]


I never said that I hate vegitarian belifes, I commend them for it, I said that I don't like when they push them on people, like dumping red paint on peoples fun coats. I don't hate vegitarian belifes or vegitarins, i just don't like how extreme they get to push them, a pamplet is just as good to get the point across. they should not guilt people not to eat meat.

[bradybaker]

If you just don't like the taste of meat, I have no problem with that...but the argument from ethics kinda bugs me. Whether or not you eat that steak, the cow still died. And even if half the world turns to vegetarianism, every cow that is bred for meat will still be butchered for meat.

It's not as if having a veggie burger is going to lead to the release of all the farm animals into the wild or something.

[reverie]

Originally posted by sitboy
This is what I hate about vegitarians, they push there belifes on others. 'I eat helpless cows\" just because some one does not follow you way of life does not make them a bad person.

sorry, it was meant to be kind of humorous.

[sensi]

I'm I’ve been either vegan or vegetarian for about 8 years.

I do it for many reasons, none of which I’m pushing on anyone else, each too their own.

I first gave up red meat because my stomach had trouble digesting it. I have a bad digestive system also I have an intolerance to wheat, milk blah blah blah, I’m sensitive. Then a few years later I had to gut a fish. This disturbed me even though I use to fish for many years with my father when I was young. It got me thinking if I can not even gut a fish how could I kill a fish. So I came to the conclusion that it’s not right for me personally to go to the supermarket and buy flesh if I can not take its life myself. I can however pull a plant out of the ground, ha ha. So that’s some of the reasons why, I have more and yes some are that I do not support the farming industry.

I'm hanging out to eat a fish tho so I’m considering going fishing but at this stage it is just a thought. I think I would not have the balls to kill it.

Peace Sensi.

[Kaniaz]

I'm completely fine with vegans (I am not one). I don't care if you only eat mud, it's not like it affects me in any way. However, the whole point of being one to save animals is something I don't understand - I mean, if you stop eating meat, some other guy will eat it anyway. Eating meat was one of those things we just had to do back before the times of vitamins and other scientific goodies - we had to have food, really, a caveman couldn't just drop in at his local jurassic pharamacy and pick up some vitamin tablets - so in a way being a vegan is a kind of luxury that science gives us. Sort of. Okay, so I went off in a tangent. I shall continue to do so.

One thing I don't like is when people slaughter cows and stuff in inhumane ways. Same with the KFC chicken stuff. I mean, you can give a chicken a quick clunk and it's dead before it knew it was dead, so dies quite happily and lives a nice chickeny afterlife clucking around and doing whatever it wants, or you can beat a chicken and scare the poor thing and make it have the fright of its life and make it helpless, and basically be a right bastard to the chicken, putting it through major distress (which even chickens are capable of feeling), and then kill it. In which case you deserve to have the chicken god come down and smite you for being an insensitive asshole.

So, um, yeah, I guess if you want to be a vegan, fine. If you want to eat meat, fine, but please try and kill things quickly and relatively painlessly (as far as is possible with the whole killing thing, you know). My views in compacted goodness.

[Belisarius]

I'm an omnivore in the worst way. If beating an animal to within an inch of it's life, letting it recover, and then beating it to death makes it taste just that much more succulent, I have no problem.

[sensi]

Did you know you can actually use a tenderizer to make your meat more succulent after the animal is already dead? If you don't know what a tenderiser is it is a big metal hammer with spikes on it that you beat your steak with.

Peace Sensi.

[Soilent Green]

Vegan, Represent. :ohyahbaby:



About the "somebody is going to eat the cow anyway" comment. The idea is to take yourself out of the market. These cow fields exist because of the demand, and a vegan diet is so much more efficient in terms of energy/fresh water use. One thing that many people don't realize is how little fresh water we have these days, as we are draining underwater lakes and destroying entire ecosystems just to feed cows. Cutting livestock out of the food chain helps a lot of these problems.

Another thing that many people don't realize is that the regulations whether we can sell meat for human consumption are pretty low. In Oregon (where I'm from, originally), it is legal to sell what are called "downer cows". These cows are so sick that they are unable to stand up by themselves. Other animals are mistreated similarly (eg. chickens put in cages so small and close together that they peck each other to death). Dairy is no better. The Veal Industry is a by-product of the Dairy Industry (dairy cows have to keep pumping out calves to produce milk).

Although I find being Vegan to be good because of the animals, I really do it because I feel better and have more energy when I'm not eating meat and dairy. It's a very personal choice that is not for everybody, and I respect that.

[reverie]

I'm a vegetarian because I hate the taste of red meat and because of ethical reasons, but I don't think I could ever give up dairy completely.

[Amethyst Star]

Originally posted by Soilent Green
Another thing that many people don't realize is that the regulations whether we can sell meat for human consumption are pretty low. In Oregon (where I'm from, originally), it is legal to sell what are called \"downer cows\". These cows are so sick that they are unable to stand up by themselves.

I find I'm healthier when I'm home in Oregon. And if you've ever had some nice strips of cow heart cooked to perfection.... :smitten: I love meat. I will say that. I'm not saying I don't enjoy the other delights that come from the natural world, but I'm happy right where I am. I do respect people's opinion to abstain from cooked critter, but as for myself, baste it, barbecue it, and send it on a silver platter!

Tidbit: humans are the only animal to naturally eat tomatoes. Other animals won't eat them unless you feed it to them.

-Amé

[sensi]

When my dog lived with me she ate what I eat which was vegan and I would also pay lots of cash for vegetarian dog food so she got every thing she needed in regards to vitamins etc. She was real happy and totally healthy. She ate anything to do with vegetables. Now as a result she steals things from the garden. The person who has her now could not understand where all their strawberries were going until they saw her eating them, ha ha ha, that just cracked me up. They feed her meat but still she goes in search of goodness from the garden. I really do miss my dog, she rules.

Peace Sensi.

[shel]

i think that the whole food industry could do better with how they produce and treat all things edible. when i was veg it was because of all the chemicals and stuff put in meats. but i always thought if i were ever man enough to hunt down a deer or wild boar and kill it with my bare hands i more than deserved to eat the $#!% out of it.

these days i just make sure i bless my food, whatever it is.

[Truthbearer]

For further dealings regarding this topic, please educate yourself by reading the following links

http://maddox.xmission.com/grill.html

http://maddox.xmission.com/sponsor.html


P.S. I was surprised nobody had linked to Maddox yet...

[Placebo]

Damn Vegans :shakehead:
:runlikehell:

PS: This is not a pointless comment, as it indicates whether I am a veggie or not, which is the question in the title

[hysteria]

Originally posted by Truthbearer
For further dealings regarding this topic, please educate yourself by reading the following links

http://maddox.xmission.com/grill.html

http://maddox.xmission.com/sponsor.html


P.S. I was surprised nobody had linked to Maddox yet...

HAHA! I was just about to but you beat me to it!

[Hate]

Originally posted by shel
i think that the whole food industry could do better with how they produce and treat all things edible. when i was veg it was because of all the chemicals and stuff put in meats. but i always thought if i were ever man enough to hunt down a deer or wild boar and kill it with my bare hands i more than deserved to eat the $#!% out of it.

these days i just make sure i bless my food, whatever it is.

I always thought they put all kinds of chemicals and pesticides in vegetables when growing them, so that ants don't eat them. But never heard that they put chemicals in meat too (at least not in Finland - never know about those dumb Americans).

[Kula]

I'm a vegetarian myself and have been for 5 years. I'm not so naive to think that being vegetarian will stop animals being killed. If you're against something in principle, you don't take part in it. Simple as that.

Maddox kicks ass by the way.

[CT]

Originally posted by hate+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hate)</div><!--QuoteBegin-shel
i think that the whole food industry could do better with how they produce and treat all things edible. when i was veg it was because of all the chemicals and stuff put in meats. but i always thought if i were ever man enough to hunt down a deer or wild boar and kill it with my bare hands i more than deserved to eat the $#!% out of it.

these days i just make sure i bless my food, whatever it is.

I always thought they put all kinds of chemicals and pesticides in vegetables when growing them, so that ants don't eat them. But never heard that they put chemicals in meat too (at least not in Finland - never know about those dumb Americans).[/b]

they put steroids and shit in them and make them eat power food with chemicals and shit stuff to make the muscles/meat grow.

[sensi]

Awaken wrote a topic called ‘KFC - seventh level of hell’. I was going to link it but it got pretty intense and it was locked so I choose not to link if but if you would like to read it feel free to find it.

Also I was going to list other websites to learn about animal cruelty etc but fuck I actually do not care. People can do what makes them feel good and I will do what makes me feel good. Not eating meat makes me feel good so that is what I do. Like i said in my first post each to their own.

Just to point out that in this thread and the KFC thread no one that is vegan or vege has been imposing their beliefs on any one else. Why is it that people get so angry at different ways of living? I don't care what the fuck anyone else eats so why would some one care what vegans or vegetarians eat.

Maddox - well yes some times he can be funny but just reading a whole lot of hatred being spewed out can become tiresome. He did make me laugh a few times and this line is priceless as it is actually one of my goals for many reasons and not just because I want to live off the land.

"The only option left for you dipshits is to buy some land, plant and pick your own crops. Impractical?"

CT – yes you are correct, they are feed all kinds of hormones etc so they grow at an abnormal rate, ‘About 100,000 die each day before slaughter because of the strains placed on their young bodies”.

Peace Sensi.

[Hate]

Originally posted by CT
they put steroids and shit in them and make them eat power food with chemicals and shit stuff to make the muscles/meat grow.
I don't want to argue, but you shouldn't generalize. At least in Finland they use very little steroids or other artificial means to boost growth. Maybe that's why most people here are somewhat afraid of foreign food.

[CT]

oh its not like im an expert on it or anything I just relay what i've heard. I'm sure every country has their varying laws on whats allowed and such.

[shel]

Originally posted by hate+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hate)</div>I always thought they put all kinds of chemicals and pesticides in vegetables when growing them, so that ants don't eat them. But never heard that they put chemicals in meat too (at least not in Finland - never know about those dumb Americans).[/b]

Originally posted by hate also@
<!--QuoteBegin-CT
they put steroids and shit in them and make them eat power food with chemicals and shit stuff to make the muscles/meat grow.
I don't want to argue, but you shouldn't generalize. At least in Finland they use very little steroids or other artificial means to boost growth. Maybe that's why most people here are somewhat afraid of foreign food.



you'll eat something that an ant wouldnt.
you've never heard of chemicals in meat.
you're afraid of foriegn food.

and you call Americans dumb?

[Crucible]

Hmm, I don't really eat meat that much and I don't have a lack of energy. At least I don't notice it. I can tell, that when I eat meat, I get tons of energy. I just can't afford meat. The last time I had any was probably a month ago, but I honestly can't remember. Also, I have not been sick in over a year.

[Hate]

Originally posted by shel+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(shel)</div>you'll eat something that an ant wouldnt.
you've never heard of chemicals in meat.
you're afraid of foriegn food.[/b]
What's your point? My point was that they don't use steroids/other stuff everywhere, and that they usually use a lot of chemicals and pesticides with vegetables to kill pests (still not always and everywhere).

<!--QuoteBegin-shel
and you call Americans dumb?
Meant to be kind of a joke. Sorry if I made someone angry.

[Roller]

OOO the vegetarian argument! I love this one!

Well first of all I don't mind people that are vegetarian because o not liking the taste of meat, that's totally fine. Full-on veganism is fine too, everyone is entitled to eat how they want, just please do not try and claim moral high-ground.

I live on a farm (25,000 sheep fro wool, 6,000 cattle for meat), and so obviously I have grown up eating meat my whole life. When we want meat we slaughter a sheep and cut it up, all nice and simple. Because of this, I know the value of eating meat - I know that when I tuck into a nice steak that a cow had to die to bring me my food, and it's ok, I accept that - I've seen them killed and cut up. What I don't think is right is city kids who munch into a steak every week, yet never stop to think about it, and if they actually saw it happen would probably faint. You have to value the life that you are taking, instead of just veiwing it all cut up and in nice plastic wrapping. If you can't handle the fact that an animal died to keep you alive, then you don't really have the right to eat meat. Fact- things die every single day, through your actions, and the people around you so that you can live.

Farming, at least in Australia, is not cruel and inhumane - nobody values animals as much as a farmer. The real crime is where inhumane practices start in order to keep up with the demand of people living in cities that do not think twice about it.

Historically speaking, civilisation would not have picked itself up off the ground without the protein source of meat. One of the forces that enabled humans to settle was domesticated animals that gave enough protien to enable the cultivation of cereal crops. I think sometimes it has to be accepted that for a human to be alive, many thousands of animals have died without you knowing it. Having said that, there is no arguing against the fact that cereal usage is much more energy efficient and water efficient. Some vegetarians seem to think that anyone who isn't a vegetarian eats meat, and only meat. Of course not, a balanced diet is always the best choice.

That's my opinion anyways, hope I haven't rambled on too much.

[loose id]

^
:bowdown:

I am a vegetarian, and I think that is the most thought out response I have seen thus far.

I'm a vegetarian only because its improved my endurance when I run, and 'cause I'm able to keep my member harder for longer when I'm :hump: ing.

I eat fish or shellfish once in a blue moon too.

Lastly, I always ask the hardcore "we're saving the lives of animals" vegans/vegetarians: "What do you do if a mosquito buzzes onto your ear?" 'Cause I know they probably squash it. Do bugs count as far as karma goes? If so, there's an anthill of bad karma waiting for me somewhere. Jainists always make me laugh too.

[PenguinLord13]

I eat helpless cows, but my sister is vegan. I would become vegetarian, but helpless cows (and chickens with the occasional ostrich or buffalo) taste soooooooo good... Anyways, I don't think there is anything wrong with eating meat. Humans are naturally omnivores, not herbivores. What I don't like is the meat most people eat. Cows were not meant to be penned up in those cow stable thingies, and be fed meat. Cows are herbivores, damnit, so why the hell feed them meat. Also, steriods and antibiotics and hormones to produce more milk. I don't want to grow titties. That goes for chickens too. The big commercial meat companies make me sick with their inhumane practices, but natural, free range, grain fed, antibiotics and hormones free meat, that I have nothing against. I don't believe in not eating meat, but I do believ in eating only meat coming from humane establishments.

[captain ahab]

I love meat. I love grilling meat and I love eating meat. The other day I was at Giant Eagle buying meat and I talked to the butcher for a long time about how much he loves cutting meat. Anyway, for those people who think it's wrong to eat meat: does it bother you that wolves or lions or whatever eat other animals? They evolved to be carnivores and we evolved to be omnivores, so I'd say we're just doing what's natural.

[OpheliaBlue]

I was vegetarian once for about 8 months, then I caved because I craved soppressata

http://www.salumitoscani.com/immagini/soppressata.jpg

oh sweet manna from heaven...........

[Dangeruss]

I tried going green, but it didn't work out really. I'd just snack on fruit to curb my hunger, but I was never really satisfied until I ate something that once had a face.

So instead I tried going on a low meat diet, which is a good fit for me because I never wanted to be a vegetarian because I was ambivalent about killing animals, I was more in it for the health benefits.

[docKnubis]

holy necro post bat man

i dont eat anything with a face... so i chop it off and presto no face

[wombing]

*laughs*

i quickly skimmed this thread, because it's usually the same old bullshit, over-reaching generalizations, etc.

-------
been a vegetarian for at least a couple years now...went vegan for awhile, but started eating cheese again because i love it so damn much, and i feel better eating moderate amounts...i also recently decided to eat fish and chips when the craving strikes, usually very rarely. which means i guess i can't say i'm a fullblooded vegetarian anymore, hehe.

---

one of the few posts i read in entirety was roller's. he made excellent points.

----
there are some shoddy statements that i saw posited which i can't be bothered to address in detail.

however, i will say that eating animals raised in the way roller described would seem to be more "humane" than eating animals raised in factory farms, where living beings are essentially subjected to tortorous, unhealthy, unnatural lives by the cruel hands of man.

anyone who does not agree with that statement ceases to be "human" in my mind. that is the extent of any "moral highground" i am willing to take in debate over diet.

those who proudly declare that factory farms are fine by them sicken me to no end...they are cold, calloused pieces of refuse...their sadism has apparently reduced them to walking corpses.


though any omnivore who says:

The big commercial meat companies make me sick with their inhumane practices, but natural, free range, grain fed, antibiotics and hormones free meat, that I have nothing against. I don't believe in not eating meat, but I do believ in eating only meat coming from humane establishments.[/b]

and puts their money (purchasing power) where their mouth is is A-OK in my books :wink:

-------

two more quick points as well:

* the rate of consumption dictates the rate of production...supply is geared to demand. this is as true in animal "production" as in other areas of economy.

it seems some otherwise intelligent people are too dense to see this for whatever reasons.... that decreased or increased demand for meat is directly related to decreased or increased production of animals.

hence, for such a person to say to the millions of veg*ns that "the same number of animals will be raised and killed anyways, whether you eat meat or not" seems like a rather idiotic statement. i suppose the meat industry simply raises these animals at their own expense and leaves them to rot once they die?

*- if everyone was vegetarian (or ate meat at a level more historically normal, instead of in unhealthfully copious amounts) there would be more nutritious food available to feed an increasingly over-populated earth.this is a scientific fact, as evidenced by the natural law of the "energy pyramid", which states that no more than 10% of the energy in each link within a food chain is transfered to the next level above it in a useable form.

------------
i hope everyone participating in this thread-whether omnivore or veg*n-takes a moment with each meal to dwell on how privileged they are to have adequate nutrition when so many starve :blue:

i know this is a downer, but eating healthy food is one of the fundamental joys of human existence...it would be grand if all of us, regardless of whether we eat meat or not, made a concerted effort to ensure our own meals are never directly (or indirectly) correlated to another human being's lack of a meal.

that should be the primary criteria for determining one's diet it seems :)

[PenguinLord13]

Wow, normally I don't read long posts, but wombing has a lot of great points. Also, I see you quoted me, and though I am a teenager, so I don't have control over what food we buy, my mom considers this important too, so as long as I am not eating out, where I have no control, eating free range, grain fed, antibiotics free meat (along with most dairy products, and eggs), ends up being what we eat.

[bradybaker]

two more quick points as well:

* the rate of consumption dictates the rate of production...supply is geared to demand. this is as true in animal "production" as in other areas of economy.

it seems some otherwise intelligent people are too dense to see this for whatever reasons.... that decreased or increased demand for meat is directly related to decreased or increased production of animals.

hence, for such a person to say to the millions of veg*ns that "the same number of animals will be raised and killed anyways, whether you eat meat or not" seems like a rather idiotic statement. i suppose the meat industry simply raises these animals at their own expense and leaves them to rot once they die?[/b]
I'm assuming that this is in reference to my statement near the beginning of the thread. If so, let me clarify. I wasn't stating that the same number of animals will die regardless, I was saying that ALL animals bread for meat (whatever the number may be) will be butchered for meat.

So, vegetarianism decreases demand for meat. So 'production' of animals goes down. Aren't they just denying those animals of a chance to live?

Example: A farmer produces 100 cows per year, vegetarian cuts the demand to 75 cows per year. Farmer reduces production to match.

That's 25 cows that will never get the chance to live. They will experience no pain, no pleasure, no comradery (sp?), no light and no darkness. If I had the choice between a short/pointless/painful life or never existing, I would choose life.

Therefore, eat meat. Don't deny existence.

[Kaniaz]

The mighty combined power of capitalism and economy smashes another vase of reason over the righteous joys of healthy eating and love. And I am really running out of vases.

[DuB]

That's 25 cows that will never get the chance to live. They will experience no pain, no pleasure, no comradery (sp?), no light and no darkness.[/b]
That's one more cow
That'll never go to school,
Never get to fall in love,
Never get to be cool!

:lol: Sorry, reminded me of that Neil Young song, haha.

P.S. I don't eat helpless cows, I eat helpless beef. Big difference :P

[wombing]

well, it would seem non-existent animals are incapable of asking for the opportunity to live, and thus cannot be denied this request.

----

however, to address the "it's better to live than not to live" point.

i could agree, assuming unlimited resources and land with which to raise meat in semi-natural conditions.

however, if the demand rises past a certain point, eventually a producer will subject it's products to less and less desireable conditions (even if by simply by neccessity-e.g. fitting X number of animals on Y amount of land) within which to live...eventually producing factory farms.

only a sadistic lunatic would choose life in such conditions over oblivion. without getting emotional, the word "hellish" seems fitting to describe certain modern animal-rearing techniques.

past a certain point, the demand for meat inevitably requires unnatural, deplorable, inhumane conditions for animals destined to be eaten.
----

are you actually saying you would rather live the life of a factory farm calf destined to become veal, than never be born?

be stripped from your mother at birth, crammed in a dark cage so that you can't even stand properly or turn around, and fed unnatural food during the short span of your life...never even coming into contact with other bovines except for the moment before death?


your logic works for free-range cattle whose quality of life is comparable, or even arguably superior to "natural" cattle.

but it is laughable when applied to the predominant source of meat in western culture:factory farms.


veg*ns serve the purpose of decreasing the amount of suffering created by such FFs by choosing to eat less meat. i would stake my left nut on the fact that the majority of the meat you consume was produced in FFs.

hence, although i do not believe in reincarnation, i hope you one day are incarnated as an animal whose life is similar to that of the many animals you are accountable for.

------

[shark!]

heres a secret. It is in fact my Life Goal to direct my entire cunning and focus at one specific, noble dietary goal. I shall first discovery what it is that persuades most vegans from eating animals. That is step one. Second I will put out propaganda and reports and create "scientific" proof that plants are in fact no different then animals. The purpose of all this shall be so vegans, one day, will only eat rocks...then I will know, I have made a difference…

[Courtney Mae]

I was vegetarian once. Didn't really work well, I did it wrong or whatever. Wasn't getting enough vitamins, lost a bunch of weight :P

I might educate myself and try again though.

[PenguinLord13]

heres a secret. It is in fact my Life Goal to direct my entire cunning and focus at one specific, noble dietary goal. I shall first discovery what it is that persuades most vegans from eating animals. That is step one. Second I will put out propaganda and reports and create "scientific" proof that plants are in fact no different then animals. The purpose of all this shall be so vegans, one day, will only eat rocks...then I will know, I have made a difference…
[/b]

I know, right. I have nothing against vegans, as my sister is one, so I will not say that's my goal or anything, but seriously, I can never figure out how anyone can be vegan, it's so difficult, so if a vegan could explain how they do it, while getting proper nutrition, please do.

[FreshBrains]

I never thought the idea of being vegetarian or vegan attractive. Especially not vegan! I eat dairy a lot. Plus, meat is part of, most of the time, at least one meal a day. Animal by-products in pretty much every meal, especially breakfast. I like it that way, and going vegetarian or vegan seems unnecessary.

[mountain]

This is what I hate about vegitarians, they push there belifes on others. 'I eat helpless cows" just because some one does not follow you way of life does not make them a bad person. YOU EAT HELPLESS PLANTS is that any better, no. i am, not saying that I hate you, but please let me have my own way of life.
P.S. I have tryed to become a vegetarian many times, but I just don't have the will power
[/b]
theyre not forcing theyre beliefs on me. I eat helpless cows. thats what i do. if there was another option that said i eat meat but feel bad after, ida picked helpless cows. if theyre was a option that said the cows deserve it, ida picked helpless cows. but it doesnt matter really. the vegetarians will never succeed in their ultimate goal of turning the whole world into tree hugging pot smoking hippies, because for every animal they dont eat, im going to eat 3. how u like me now.

[Roller]

I think that factory farms are something that would turn me vegan, or at least stop me from eating red meat. I guess they're a much bigger thing in the US because until I started doing a bit more research on veganism etc I'd never heard of a factory farm before. I'm pretty sure that there are no factory farms in Australia, although this probably has a lot to do with the fact that Australia has so much land to graze cattle on... anyway I have no qualms about eating red meat provided I know that it's been raised on pastoral farms because this way the cattle are more or less left to their own devices for most of their life. Having grown up on a sheep and cattle station (australian version of ranch) I've seen the stock grazing naturally and the idea of factory farms kind of sickens me. The general image I get from it is comparable to The Matrix when all the people are seen in their capsules etc.

Something I've always wondered about is this: if a cow is raised free from cruelty and harm and then quickly and instantly killed, is it any more a 'loss of life' than picking a carrot? Does the fact that an animal has a mind and feelings make it more 'alive' than a carrot, or is the mind a survival trait that has evolved to make a species more likely to survive?

I mean regargless of what position you ultimately take in the whole debate the simple act of thinking through the issues involved is an important one.

[quote]

I like eating meat, and I love farming cattle and I'm just as keen as anybody to see the australian beef industry flourish, but views like that are strangely disconcerting; it's viewpoints like this are what enable factory farms to exist. A lot of people (not accusing you here, mountain) would claim to be perfectly ok with eating meat, yet if given a sheep and a knife and told to slaughter it they'd quickly change their minds.

[MSG]

I dont understand how one lives life without eating meat...

Its the circle of life people. Things live... things get eaten.

As for eating meat... if someone has no taste for meat then thats just dandy but if they're trying to stop meat from being produced or give meat eaters guilt trips then thats just wrong and they should be ashamed of themselves.

[docKnubis]

come on guy really its the 21st century no meat is actually from living animals it comes from a synthesizer
like that thing on star trek.

[PenguinLord13]

I like eating meat, and I love farming cattle and I'm just as keen as anybody to see the australian beef industry flourish, but views like that are strangely disconcerting; it's viewpoints like this are what enable factory farms to exist. A lot of people (not accusing you here, mountain) would claim to be perfectly ok with eating meat, yet if given a sheep and a knife and told to slaughter it they'd quickly change their minds.
[/b]

Well, I wouldn't slaughter the Animal either, because I don't know how to do it properly, and wouldn't want to create a bloodly mess all over the slaughtering area, and kill the animal in a horrible, painful way.

[Howie]

You just can't replace a nice juicy steak or good BBQ Ribs
However my wife is a vegetarian, not a vegan. Because of this it does of coarse effect my eating habits to a degree. I eat less meat. As a result I have found that during labor intensive work that eating a lighter meal containing no meat makes me less lethargic after eating.
Asides from the pesticides it is no doubt healthy...BUT

Don't you have to wonder why we have some of the canine attributes that our teeth have?
And don't you have to wonder why there are some nutrients that vegans lack because our body requires them?
Lack of protein can be substituted these days to of set things such as anemia.

It has been noted too that our digestive track is closer to an herbivore than that of a carnivore...so I here.

Our culture allows vegans this luxury they choose.
Stranded on an Island I would suggest you take a step back to our ancestors.

* does it seem like we may be evolving more into herbivores????

:dancingcow: We plant our own garden so we can reap the benefits of fresh uncontaminated (as it can be, I.E. air pollution/ground contaminants etc) vegetables.

[taihen]

Hehe. In fact, yes, we are more suited to digesting vegetables. Animal flesh also contains an unhealthy amount of fat. I'm not always a fan of eating fat, it makes me kind of sick. I only like very lean meat.

Then again, I have no moral issues with killing defenceless animals. I love the taste of animal muscles being ground up in my moutjh... mmm, beefy...

[mountain]

A lot of people (not accusing you here, mountain) would claim to be perfectly ok with eating meat, yet if given a sheep and a knife and told to slaughter it they'd quickly change their minds.

Wrong you are sir! even thou you said not accusingg you mountain i think we all got the message. not that i dont think you presented your argument/debate beautifully with facts as opposed to just opinions (something that pleases me greatly :) ) I in fact would slaughter a sheep if i was hungry and given the oppurtunity. Thou I have never killed a sheep, i have been hunting and killed quails and deer, as well as been fishing countless times. I've cleaned the animals themselves and eaten them after. Even so, though this analogy does not particularly apply to me, i must concede the point to you, as for 95% of people it would be true.

[King and God]

I'm a meat eater, and I find it silly to think it is wrong to eat meat.

[Limitz]

A picture is worth a thousand words.
http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k90/XmantrainX/bigpot6.jpg

[MSG]

A picture is worth a thousand words.
http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k90/XmantrainX/bigpot6.jpg
[/b]

I was going to post that

but predicted that you were going to do it

and lo and behold

the maddox obsessor strikes again

[Howie]

I think all too often people make the assumption that if you are a vegetarian that you are an animal rights activist. This is not the case a lot of the time. It is just a choice.

One I can't do but I can appreciate.
But I just have to-------------------------------------- :dancingcow: :sniper:

Let's EAT! :wink:


If you just don't like the taste of meat, I have no problem with that...but the argument from ethics kinda bugs me. Whether or not you eat that steak, the cow still died. And even if half the world turns to vegetarianism, every cow that is bred for meat will still be butchered for meat.
It's not as if having a veggie burger is going to lead to the release of all the farm animals into the wild or something.
[/b]


ha ha.. This came to mind when I read your response Brady.
In the case of the United states there were actually MORE wild Buffalo when we discovered the continent than there cows now!
SO we shoot and waste the entire herds of (free) meat and then turn around and spend time energy and feed to raise cattle.
What the Indians must have thought. :hrm:

[Limitz]

I was going to post that

but predicted that you were going to do it

and lo and behold

the maddox obsessor strikes again
[/b]

You know me too well :content:

[pyrhho]

ummm I've been vegetarian my whole life. (just how I was raised. frankly meat really grosses me out.).. I am trying to be vegan, because a little while ago I was eating my breakfast cereal (with milk) and I started thinking about what I was really eating. and it kinda grossed me out. I just can't stomach meat, or dairy, or eggs, or w/e. I don't like my food to be able to (or made by) something that moves.. just me, i guess.

So, I voted vegan, cause I wish I could be. Unfortunately I'm eating at a cafeteria now that believes in putting cheese on EVERYTHING. argh.

pyrhho

[Amethyst Star]

Would true vegans eat honey? I'm just curious, as that thought just crossed my mind. I mean, it is practically bee vomit.

[Actowriok06]

Would true vegans eat honey? I'm just curious, as that thought just crossed my mind. I mean, it is practically bee vomit.
[/b]

I'm not a vegan, but...

Point One: If human vomit tasted good, you would probably eat it and not call yourself a caniball (generally speaking) because technically the bees were not harmed by taking their honey.

Point Two: Honey used to be one of my favorite foods.

[King and God]

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k90/XmantrainX/bigpot6.jpg
[/b]

So will I.

[invader_tech]

If eating meat was wrong, lions, tigers and bears wouldn't eat it either.
But guess what, there are meat eaters in nature, and the food chain is what creates a balance in species population.

Of course, if you simply dont like the taste of meat, by all means eat whatever you want to.
That's the only reason I can justify for being a vegan: just dont like meat.

[Actowriok06]

Of course, if you simply dont like the taste of meat, by all means eat whatever you want to.
That's the only reason I can justify for being a vegan: just dont like meat.
[/b]

That and either being allergic or just getting sick from eating meat.

[Nanten]

If eating meat was wrong, lions, tigers and bears wouldn't eat it either.[/b]

Yeah, let animals dictate your morality. Act on instinct. If that guy in traffic is making you mad, run him off the road! Just do whatever you want, because that's the way animals live, and apparently they have the moral high ground.

If that's your logic for why eating meat isn't wrong, then you're a hypocrite if you have it cooked first.

[Ynot]

I only eat hay,
and I'm as healthy as anyone

http://sfj.abstractdynamics.org/archives/102104strawmanclimbing.JPG

[invader_tech]

Yeah, let animals dictate your morality. Act on instinct. If that guy in traffic is making you mad, run him off the road! Just do whatever you want, because that's the way animals live, and apparently they have the moral high ground.

If that's your logic for why eating meat isn't wrong, then you're a hypocrite if you have it cooked first.
[/b]

Get this, humanity is the only species that kills their own kind for pleasure! So yes, I do see animals as being more moral than ourselves. They were made to eat meat, its why they eat eat. We were made as omnivores, which means we can eat both, and have a choice.

I don't need an instruction manual that tells me what my canines and front teeth are for, and neither do wild animals.


If that's your logic for why eating meat isn't wrong, then you're a hypocrite if you have it cooked first.
[/b]

And about that, the meat is still being eaten. It doesn't matter whether I have it cooked or not. There are plenty of animals that do different things to their food before they eat it, you know, and cooking it is the way of humankind.

[Nanten]

Get this, humanity is the only species that kills their own kind for pleasure! So yes, I do see animals as being more moral than ourselves. They were made to eat meat, its why they eat eat. We were made as omnivores, which means we can eat both, and have a choice.

I don't need an instruction manual that tells me what my canines and front teeth are for, and neither do wild animals.[/b]

Other animals fight wars, regardless of whether they do it for pleasure or not. Various primates have been observed fighting tribal wars, and ants are known to fight very large battles in which most of them die.

They were made to eat meat, its why they eat eat.[/b]

Animals are not made to eat meat. What about horses? Buffalo? Oxen? Deer? Elephants? There are many animals that were not meant to eat meat.

[Ynot]

dear lord,

This reminds of the film Permanent Midnight where the main character shoots himself with heroine like a mad-man but won't eat sugar cause he thinks its bad for him

let's get some perspective here, people

[Mystical_Journey]

I was a Vegetarian who ate fish for the first 10 weeks of the year, but then i went to America for a holiday in March and my moral fibre began its erosion with Spaghetti Bolognese.

[OpheliaBlue]

dear lord,

This reminds of the film Permanent Midnight where the main character shoots himself with heroine like a mad-man but won't eat sugar cause he thinks its bad for him

let's get some perspective here, people
[/b]
oh hell yeah

I'd rather eat baby animals than something 'vegetarian' that has high fructose syrup in it

that shit'll kill you AND preserve your dead body for ages

[wombing]

vegans do not eat honey, as it is derived from animals.

If eating meat was wrong, lions, tigers and bears wouldn't eat it either.[/b]

*laughs*

hopefully the next sexual partner encountered doesn't justify eating my face after we are done like certain creepy-crawlies, using the same logic.

--------

i agree with Ynot that some perspective should be brought to this discussion (and so naturally i can onl give my own :wink: )

i think a definite distinction should be made between viewing the eating of animal flesh in itself as a depraved, unnatural and morally wrong act, and viewing the fairly common practice of raising suffering animals for meat in deplorable conditions as depraved and inhumane.

as a veg*n, i certainly do not hold the first view. y'all can feel free to eat all the flesh you desire. (though i hope you eat free-range meat largely untainted by hormones and antibiotics.)

however, it strikes me that the vast majority of meat-eaters i know would be VERY uncomfortable if they knew what percentage of their meat is produced by barbaric and cruel methods. i would even go so far as to say that many would be incapable of eating a chicken breast, or steak or veal cutlet if they knew the extent of suffering which was involved in its creation.

i am firmly convinced that this is the reason many meat-eaters feel the need to act flippant and goodhumoured when discussing the meat industry. deep down they are decent, reasonably compassionate human beings who would feel sick if they walked through a factory farm.

and so they hide the (very real and discomforting) possiblity that they own a share in such institutions through their purchasing power behind petty catchphrases and forced indifference.

IMO, the largest misconception omnivores have of veg*ns is that we want everyone to stop eating meat completely. whereas in actuality, i think the greater part of the veg*n population would be happy knowing that every animal raised for consumption is guaranteed a lifespan free of unneccessary suffering.

--------
wearing blue jeans isn't "wrong", but i would hope the vast majority of us would agre it is "wrong" to purchase blue jeans produced by a child working long hours in a sweat shop for starvation wages, and thus support such institutions.

i suppose the seemingly universal mechanism of chosen ignorance is what makes it possible for decent, compassionate human beings to buy designer jeans and eat a double cheeseburger at mcdonalds. our whole society of consumption is designed to offer us shiny, sterile, nicely packaged products without needing to know how they were produced.

this is how so many manage to convince themselves that their jeans were created by some machine, or a well paid mother picking up a little extra cash at a part-time job. and that their burger used to happily roam a sunny terrain dociley chewing grass.

personally, i know that i delude myself in similar ways many times each and every day. it should not be a matter of veg*ns (or omnivores who avoid factory farm produced meat) trying to act "superior" because their diet causes minimal suffering.

it should be a matter of all of us who are aware of injustice, cruelty, and inhumanity in whichever area of human life to do our best to remedy the situation with our everyday choices, and encourage others to also try their damnest in whichever way they can.

i certainly get defensive and irritated when someone reveals that something i have previously enjoyed is potentially produced in such a way as to make me feel guilty and less than human. but we should all realize that it is only ourselves who can truly incriminate ourselves....we only answer to ourselves in the end.

in order for everyone involved in this discussion to gaint he maximum benefit, perhaps each of us (omnivore or not) should choose one of the following statements, after a moment of introspection, forgetting everyone else's opinions altogether.

1. i would feel happier, more at peace, and be better able to look myself in the mirror knowing that my dietary choices (and indeed all choices) cause only neccessary suffering to both human and non-human animals, though these choices may sometimes involve making small concessions/sacrifices (such as paying abit more for humanely raised beef or fair trade products, or doing without certain products and services altogether), and involve a measure of conscious effort, and respect for both myself and others.

2. i would feel happier, more at peace, and be better able to look myself in the mirror knowing that my dietary choices (and indeed all choices) often cause unneccessary suffering to both human and non-human animals, yet allow me to avoid making small concessions/sacrifices, retain my apathy, and continue to view my own existence as more deserving of pleasure than the existences of others.

if you do not agree completely with either, decide which pole you most gravitate towards, and form a statement which encapsulates that position.

now i encourage both you, and myself, to live according to whichever statement stems from your true nature. whether that nature involves taking a sadistic pleasure in causing suffering if it brings personal gain, or whether that nature involves being a compassionate person who is sickened by preventable cruelty, and takes practical measures to avoid complicity in said cruelty.

you will note that eating meat in and of itself has nothing to do with being one or the other type of being...

:)

[invader_tech]

Other animals fight wars, regardless of whether they do it for pleasure or not. Various primates have been observed fighting tribal wars, and ants are known to fight very large battles in which most of them die.
Animals are not made to eat meat. What about horses? Buffalo? Oxen? Deer? Elephants? There are many animals that were not meant to eat meat.
[/b]


The point is that we kill for pleasure. That's the dividing line.

And =O didn't you notice? We have canine teeth, and the front teeth are meant for cutting through the tougher bits of our food. Meat is tougher than just about any edible plant.


*laughs*

hopefully the next sexual partner encountered doesn't justify eating my face after we are done like certain creepy-crawlies, using the same logic.
[/b]

Hopefully indeed. Since we humans use intelligence (for the most part), I'm pretty confident that I won't choose a homicidal woman as my partner.

[Ynot]

1. i would feel happier, more at peace, and be better able to look myself in the mirror knowing that my dietary choices (and indeed all choices) cause only neccessary suffering to both human and non-human animals, though these choices may sometimes involve making small concessions/sacrifices (such as paying abit more for humanely raised beef or fair trade products, or doing without certain products and services altogether), and involve a measure of conscious effort, and respect for both myself and others.

(I don't include hurt feelings in the above, by the way :wink: )

Now.......
One of the good things to come out of all this, is that meat products (in this country, at least) are quite well labelled, so with the minimum of effort, you can find out exactly how they are produced.
There's been a few uproars about inaccurate labelling, meaning there are lots of people, both in authority and out, keeping an eye on these claims for "free range", or "non-battery", etc.

In fact, the problem has swayed the other way
how do I know, as a consumer wanting to re-fill my salad bowl, how these products were produced, picked, etc.
I'm not talking about organic (non-pestiside) stuff
I'm talking about the rights and conditions of the crop pickers

How do I know this this lovely bunch of bananas, here, wasn't picked by a migrant worker for £0.50 / hour

I don't

so.......
"cause only neccessary suffering to both human and non-human animals"
is still a matter of perspective

Also,
why are we only concerned with suffering
it's a bit of a narrow arguement

why not take everything into account

there's lots of morally questionable things going on
that fruit 'n veg are a part of

for developed countries, it's often a lot cheaper to ship consumables half way round the world, than grow them locally (again, I can only speak for the UK, here) as land and labour costs are significantly lower
The environmental impact of supermarkets importing food from 3rd world countries, is enormous
all the while, local farmers are battling to break even

one of the most aggravating things about vegitarians / vegans in general, is that they feel morally superior, as they don't eat "helpless little cows"
when, in reality, they have little moral high ground to stand on

[Gorky]

This is what I hate about vegitarians, they push there belifes on others. 'I eat helpless cows" just because some one does not follow you way of life does not make them a bad person. YOU EAT HELPLESS PLANTS is that any better, no. i am, not saying that I hate you, but please let me have my own way of life.
P.S. I have tryed to become a vegetarian many times, but I just don't have the will power
[/b]

You must have come in contact with some crazy vegetarians. Most of them aren't extremists. I think you only hear about the extemists in the news or whatever. Half of my friends are vegetarians and they could care less if I eat meat. It's their personal opinions.


And there's such a thing as a food chain. Which happens to have animal eating other animals. Last time I checked humans are animals. Why is it wrong for us to eat meat but not other animals?

[mountain]

Yeah, let animals dictate your morality. Act on instinct. If that guy in traffic is making you mad, run him off the road! Just do whatever you want, because that's the way animals live, and apparently they have the moral high ground.

If that's your logic for why eating meat isn't wrong, then you're a hypocrite if you have it cooked first.
[/b]
my logic for eating meat is try and stop me.

[mountain]

my logic for eating meat is try and stop me.
[/b]
and on a continuation of thsi soon-to-be rant, lions are animals, humans are animals. we are both carnivores we both eat meat. whining about it wont make the world a happier place for the tree hugging pot smoking peta hippies, so why complain? your just annoying everyone, and missing out on meat yourself. and to address the topic of the "deplorable" conditions of these poor cattle, personally if someone is going to eat me and kill me, i really dont care if they put me up in a holiday in or the four seasons on my trip from uncle johns farm to the slaughterhouse. im a little more concerned about the slaughterhouse then the hotel im staying at on the way. and even beylond that i dont want to pay 20.00 a pound for ground beef just so the cows can eat brand name slop instead of generic slop. Killing is the way of the world and what a hard world it is. Maybe, by eating only vegetables and whining to people who dont care, tomorrow you'll wake up and meat eating will be illegal in america. if ur really lucky, we'll have a barnyard animal as our next president! (not that it wouldnt do a better job then bush, hardy harhar) But somehow I doubt that will happen. and if it does, you know who to point and laugh at, because i would be an idiot. But until then, I'll enjoy my turn pointing and laughing, and i'll do it while eating a tender strip of veal.

[wombing]

definitely agree with your points ynot...

Also,
why are we only concerned with suffering
it's a bit of a narrow arguement

why not take everything into account

there's lots of morally questionable things going on
that fruit 'n veg are a part of[/b]

well, personally, i only define morality BY suffering (even if it is not always extreme). "do to other living beings what you would have them do to you if their was a role reversal". no living being seems to prefer suffering.

hence, i include environmental degradation as a "cause of suffering" to humanity and the biosphere as a whole, though admittedly mostly long term in scope (skin cancer rates, global warming and its potential adverse effects such as severer storms, etc). likewise worker exploitation.

but, i think we are mostly on the same page, and just phrasing things differently :wink:

---

as far as i know, the UK is ahead of the game on starting to regulate animal production compared to most countries, though they still have some way to go. this is excellent.

to use one example, in canada there is currently no regulation on what constitutes "free-range" poultry. in the US, the chickens are required to have "access to the outdoors". this almost always means that there is a single door large enough for a single chicken to walk through in a crowded barn of 10, 000 or more chickens. a technicality.

i agree that more widespread, informative, accurate labeling is needed on all foodsafes (and indeed all consumer products IMHO), so that consumers know exactly what they are getting, and how it was produced.

perhaps all conscious consumers should collectively pressure both the livestock and agricultural industries for such labeling.
----

...it is easy to view the vast majority of veg*ns as the "morally superior" type, simply because those are the ones who are most vocal. but in actuality, the majority of vegs i have spoken to are remarkably silent about their dietary choices. a disproportionate sample seems to speak for the greater population.

in my own case i never advertise that i am a veg until it comes up naturally in a situation, and only discuss my various reasons if the other person expressly shows interest. many vegs are the same way....in other words, you just assume they eat meat until you know them well and happen to eat some meals with them.

it's more fun that way anyways :wink:

-------

oh, and mountain:

and to address the topic of the "deplorable" conditions of these poor cattle, personally if someone is going to eat me and kill me, i really dont care if they put me up in a holiday in or the four seasons on my trip from uncle johns farm to the slaughterhouse. im a little more concerned about the slaughterhouse then the hotel im staying at on the way. and even beylond that i dont want to pay 20.00 a pound for ground beef just so the cows can eat brand name slop instead of generic slop. [/b]

it's not a matter of transport to the slaughterhouse, but of the quality of an animal's entire life. i don't care if you eat animals raised in a humane manner, so your childish posturing is irrelevant in that respect.

you are obviously completely uneducated on this subject, and come across as such.

investigate animals raised in FACTORY FARMS, as opposed to "uncle john's farm". the hens that are crammed into cages for their entire lives, with their sensitive beaks seared off so that they do not peck each other to death in the unnaturally confined spaces, hardly able to move, often collapsing under the unnatural weight growth caused by steroid growth hormones, covered in feces from the cages above them.

or the veal calves i described earlier in the thread, etc.

it is simple. you can possibly successfully argue that you wouldn't mind grazing on uncle john's farm and being cramped during transport to a relatively quick and painless death.

but you are a pathetic liar if you delude yourself into thinking you wouldn't mind living the tortured existence of a factory farm animal. perhaps you are just too weak or lazy to get your facts straight before you sound like a complete ass.

and you can write me off as a bleeding heart liberal tree hugger extremist trying to push my beliefs on others if that takes away the sting of truth.

but i believe i have shown that i am far from it, and no less extreme than roller or ynot, both of whose stances i respect.

-------
heh, i doubt there is much else for me to say in this thread...there are always extremists on both sides who will never change. and then there are those who are openminded and willing to learn.

i have been given some food for thought, and hopefully given the more reasonable people some in return.

:yumdumdoodledum:

[mountain]

definitely agree with your points ynot...



well, personally, i only define morality BY suffering (even if it is not always extreme). "do to other living beings what you would have them do to you if their was a role reversal". no living being seems to prefer suffering.

hence, i include environmental degradation as a "cause of suffering" to humanity and the biosphere as a whole, though admittedly mostly long term in scope (skin cancer rates, global warming and its potential adverse effects such as severer storms, etc). likewise worker exploitation.

but, i think we are mostly on the same page, and just phrasing things differently :wink:

---

as far as i know, the UK is ahead of the game on starting to regulate animal production compared to most countries, though they still have some way to go. this is excellent.

to use one example, in canada there is currently no regulation on what constitutes "free-range" poultry. in the US, the chickens are required to have "access to the outdoors". this almost always means that there is a single door large enough for a single chicken to walk through in a crowded barn of 10, 000 or more chickens. a technicality.

i agree that more widespread, informative, accurate labeling is needed on all foodsafes (and indeed all consumer products IMHO), so that consumers know exactly what they are getting, and how it was produced.

perhaps all conscious consumers should collectively pressure both the livestock and agricultural industries for such labeling.
----

...it is easy to view the vast majority of veg*ns as the "morally superior" type, simply because those are the ones who are most vocal. but in actuality, the majority of vegs i have spoken to are remarkably silent about their dietary choices. a disproportionate sample seems to speak for the greater population.

in my own case i never advertise that i am a veg until it comes up naturally in a situation, and only discuss my various reasons if the other person expressly shows interest. many vegs are the same way....in other words, you just assume they eat meat until you know them well and happen to eat some meals with them.

it's more fun that way anyways :wink:

-------

oh, and mountain:



it's not a matter of transport to the slaughterhouse, but of the quality of an animal's entire life. i don't care if you eat animals raised in a humane manner, so your childish posturing is irrelevant in that respect.

you are obviously completely uneducated on this subject, and come across as such.

investigate animals raised in FACTORY FARMS, as opposed to "uncle john's farm". the hens that are crammed into cages for their entire lives, with their sensitive beaks seared off so that they do not peck each other to death in the unnaturally confined spaces, hardly able to move, often collapsing under the unnatural weight growth caused by steroid growth hormones, covered in feces from the cages above them.

or the veal calves i described earlier in the thread, etc.

it is simple. you can possibly successfully argue that you wouldn't mind grazing on uncle john's farm and being cramped during transport to a relatively quick and painless death.

but you are a pathetic liar if you delude yourself into thinking you wouldn't mind living the tortured existence of a factory farm animal. perhaps you are just too weak or lazy to get your facts straight before you sound like a complete ass.

and you can write me off as a bleeding heart liberal tree hugger extremist trying to push my beliefs on others if that takes away the sting of truth.

but i believe i have shown that i am far from it, and no less extreme than roller or ynot, both of whose stances i respect.

-------
heh, i doubt there is much else for me to say in this thread...there are always extremists on both sides who will never change. and then there are those who are openminded and willing to learn.

i have been given some food for thought, and hopefully given the more reasonable people some in return.

:yumdumdoodledum:
[/b]

yes wombing feed your rage... i can feel your anger it gives you focus... it makes you strong.
come with me to the dark side... together we can rule the galaxy, as father and son!

LIGHTEN UP!

seriously though, wombing. what i post is a joke, 60% of the time, everytime.
(that doesnt make any sense)

[wombing]

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f24/the_receptive/Luke20skywalker.jpg

[mountain]

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f24/the_receptive/Luke20skywalker.jpg
[/b]
hahaha nice

[Amethyst Star]

That might almost qualify as a docthory pick.... (I wonder if doc has seen that one)

[Krippe]

I don't eat 'helpless' cows. I have a gun, and I give them a gun. And most of the times I am the fastest so i get to eat them. simple as that

[PhowaBoy]

A friend of mine was doing some welding at a slaughter house. He told me a story which is currently one of the driving forces for me to become a vegitarian:

The cows are hearded through a cattle shoot. The cow at the front of the line is brain pithed by a 'jackhammer' like gun. All the cows behind are screaming in terror because they know their turn is coming. However, one cow was not killed by the bolt, and the machines had already torn most of it's hide off as it jumped the shoot and was running for it's life. The kill floor 'gunner' then had to run after it to gun it down. I guess this happens every now and then....

Another reason I'd like to become a vegitarian is that as you go up the food chain, the chemicals and toxins in the environment become more concentrated. Now-a-days, your going to get GMO'd, oversprayed, steroid and chemical produced plants and meat, however, the concentrations will be higher in the meats (higher order life forms).

In Canada, there are now class action suits against Monsanto due to Monsanto genes being found in organically produced crops (as Monsanto failed to contain these genes). I hope North America can get it's act together, and I think threads like this are a great way to spread info!

[The Blue Meanie]

OMG! Oh, man, PhowaBoy, that's awful! I never knew that meatworks did such horrendous, cruel things like that...

Huh... what they SHOULD do is turn the cows around, and put them on a conveyer belt going BACKWARDS. So, instead of killing the one at the front of the line and letting the ones behind see and get panicked, you kill the ones at the back of the line first. That way, you're killing them off one by one, from behind, and none of the cows in front can see until they get killed. That would avoid SO much panic and prevent situations like the one you so vividly describe, from arising. That's a MUCH better way of doing things.

[remembermegreg]

I love meat! but i dont like non mammel or bird food. Fish and shellfish are just gross.

[mountain]

Another reason I'd like to become a vegitarian is that as you go up the food chain, the chemicals and toxins in the environment become more concentrated. Now-a-days, your going to get GMO'd, oversprayed, steroid and chemical produced plants and meat, however, the concentrations will be higher in the meats (higher order life forms).
[/b]
yeah it sux to be at the top of the food chain... main it would be sweet to be at the bottom... i mean u dont have to deal with all those toxins... sure u get eatin but man, life is toxin free!

[PhowaBoy]

Instead of killing them backwards, I was thinking getting them shit faced on a nice cognac or beer, until they die of liver failure (marinates them as well).

And as far as the higher food chain stuff goes, I didn't say that we as humans should be on the bottom, but we should eat the animals down there so we're not eating our own crap (or rather the chemical companies crap).

[badassbob]

A friend of mine went vegetarian a few years ago - it was just a little phase he went through, and his dad gave him the choice between a .177 BSA Meteor MK1 air rifle, and a real bullet firing rifle. because he was having his little veggie phase, he chose the air rifle, because the stock on the real rifle was made of deer antler or something crazy like that and regrets his decision to this day.

I eat meat because I don't see why not. I'd like to see a vegetarian lecture a lion for eating a gazelle.
"that was a very naughty thing you just did, now apologise!"

[OpheliaBlue]

vegetarians can't use old fashioned candles or soap (tallow), eat jello (gelatin), or ice cream or cheese (rennet)

also, tallow is an important raw material in the steel rolling industry, as it is one substance that can provide the required lubrication as the sheet steel is compressed through the rollers...so no steel for you vegetarians either

and vegans can't wear silk or use down pillows

so how many of you are really orthodox, I'd like to know :wink:

[Ynot]

they can't own any electrical products, either
as tallow is used in solder

I'm liking this :bigteeth:

what other every-day products use animal extracts......

omg omg omg

OIL !!!!

compressed fish

ahahahaha

[OpheliaBlue]

OIL !!!!

compressed fish

ahahahaha
[/b]
LOL

hey, vegans can't use compost/manure in their gardens

dude, and sugar is sometimes colored white with bone char from cows...that's just....weird

[Ynot]

should you be walking in the woods, and get mauled by a bear

morally, what can you do to protect yourself

[badassbob]

they can't own any electrical products, either
as tallow is used in solder

I'm liking this :bigteeth:

what other every-day products use animal extracts......

omg omg omg

OIL !!!!

compressed fish

ahahahaha
[/b]
If they can't use oil, then no cars, trains, aircraft, boats, anything made in a factory (machines in factorys are lubricated with oil), kerosene, power stations, residue that comes from oil in fractinal distillation is used for roads and roofs so vegans can't have roads or roofs now either. :bigteeth:

EDIT: Just found some more from Google :)

-Bandages
-Petroleum can be turned into many types of petrochemicals. One of these is synthetic (man-made) fibers, which can be woven into curtains and carpets
-Fertilizers and pesticides
-Detergants
-Plastics, CD's cassettes, childrens toys, PC covers, Cell phone covers, TV covers, torches, (the list goes on practically forever.
-Some medicines, such as penicillin, are made by organisms (no more penecillin for sick vegans)
-Food additives. Many of these additives increase the shelf-life of canned food. Tihs keeps the food fresh longer, and allows more people throughout the world to eat healthy. (no more healthy vegans)
-Make-up, nail polish and lipstick are all made, at least partly, from oil. (more ugly vegans)
-Ethylene is one of the byproducts of distilling oil. It can be made softer and used for film and garbage bags, or harder to make milk crates.

[PenguinLord13]

Don't you guys think you're being hard on the vegans. They don't eat any animal products. There is nothing there about using products using animal byproducts or something. I am not vegan, and I think choosing to be vegan is a bit weird, but it is not something ridiculous, and to be publicly ridiculed.

[Howie]

Don't you guys think you're being hard on the vegans. They don't eat any animal products. There is nothing there about using products using animal byproducts or something. I am not vegan, and I think choosing to be vegan is a bit weird, but it is not something ridiculous, and to be publicly ridiculed.
[/b]

By all means I agree. It is a persons choice. Like my wife. She is a vegetarian.
It is similar to religion. Do what you fell and believe, just don't push it on me. Otherwise I can come up with plenty of counter arguments! :lol:

[mountain]

By all means I agree. It is a persons choice. Like my wife. She is a vegetarian.
It is similar to religion. Do what you fell and believe, just don't push it on me. Otherwise I can come up with plenty of counter arguments! :lol:
[/b]
hey did anybody see that episode of south park where they rescue those baby cows from being killed and at the end then stan becomes a vegitarian, and gets vaginitis (breaking out all over ur body in pussys) and the moral of the story is its wrong to eat it veal cuz the animals are tortured, but if u stop eating meat alltogether u break out all over your body in vaginas.


Don't you guys think you're being hard on the vegans. They don't eat any animal products. There is nothing there about using products using animal byproducts or something. I am not vegan, and I think choosing to be vegan is a bit weird, but it is not something ridiculous, and to be publicly ridiculed.
[/b]
well thats not quite true... its not just eating... how many vegans wear fur. hey have you ever seen the hippies poor red paint onto fur? if a hippie di that to me theyd be in for a serious beat down. its be like "hey man peace! i dont want no trouble! want some weed man?" and id be like "die hippie scum!"

[OpheliaBlue]

aw we're just having at bit of fun

incidentally, lmao @ vaginitis

[mountain]

aw we're just having at bit of fun

incidentally, lmao @ vaginitis
[/b]
u know what tho. i can settle this whole thing real quick with one magical word.
and that word is bacon.

[Ynot]

u know what tho. i can settle this whole thing real quick with one magical word.
and that word is bacon.
[/b]
and sausages

[mountain]

and sausages
[/b]
but mainly... bacon.

[OpheliaBlue]

and sausages
[/b]
actually, soppressata (an italian cured sausage) might rate just a hair above bacon

but yeah, that's the gist

[xcrissxcrossx]

im a meatitarian

[PenguinLord13]

actually, soppressata (an italian cured sausage) might rate just a hair above bacon

but yeah, that's the gist
[/b]

No. Nothing beats bacon. How dare you insult the holiness of bacon!!! :pissed:

[The Blue Meanie]

No. Nothing beats bacon. How dare you insult the holiness of bacon!!! :pissed:
[/b]
I'm gonna have to go with Ophelia. There are so many types of sausages out there, many of which rank even above bacon...

[mountain]

I'm gonna have to go with Ophelia. There are so many types of sausages out there, many of which rank even above bacon...
[/b]
i think its fantastic how the vegetarians tried to guilt trip us into becoming vegie-vaginas and we turned the thread into a debate over bacon and sausages... fantastic.

[The Blue Meanie]

i think its fantastic how the vegetarians tried to guilt trip us into becoming vegie-vaginas and we turned the thread into a debate over bacon and sausages... fantastic.
[/b]
Actually, as of today, I'm gonna be vegetarian for a fortnight. Not for any ethical reasons, just to loose a little weight.

[OpheliaBlue]

No. Nothing beats bacon. How dare you insult the holiness of bacon!!! :pissed:
[/b]
well ok, I'll admit that pancetta (italian form of bacon, which is cured but not smoked) is so good it brings a tear to my eye

it's like, bacon married sausage and pancetta is their sweet, sweet love child

[NeAvO]

Anyone made a hot dog with bacon, bet that would taste good.

[badassbob]

No. Nothing beats bacon. How dare you insult the holiness of bacon!!! :pissed:
[/b]
Yeah, you can make smoke grenades using the fat from bacon :bigteeth: melt it in a pan, and whilst it's still liquidised pour it into a cone of foil, stick in a fuse. When it's dry, voila, a bacon smoke grenade!!



i think its fantastic how the vegetarians tried to guilt trip us into becoming vegie-vaginas and we turned the thread into a debate over bacon and sausages... fantastic.
[/b]

:hijack: :bigteeth:

[mountain]

Anyone made a hot dog with bacon, bet that would taste good.
[/b]
ga i do that all the time, its called a heart attack in a blanket.

[NeAvO]

ga i do that all the time, its called a heart attack in a blanket.
[/b]

If it tastes good who cares about the side effects :wink:

[The Blue Meanie]

Hmmmm. I'm not gonna say I don't LOVE meant, cos that would be a total lie, but I still strongly believe that IF you're a good cook, or at least passable, such as yours truly, you can make vegetarian meals that are JUST as nice as most meat dishes. But admittedly, meat... is good.

As for the ethical side of things? I can understand vegtarianism, and to a certain extent, veganism. But, it's just not something that I myself subscribe to.

My biggest concern with veganism and vegetarianism, however, is the nutrition side of things. Iy IS possible to be healthy and vegetarian, but, you have to have a very good understanding of nutrition. It is much harder to get the same nutrition as nourishment from a vegetarian diet. Not impossible, just harder... and just taking dietary supplements ain't a good solution.

[OpheliaBlue]

My biggest concern with veganism and vegetarianism, however, is the nutrition side of things. Iy IS possible to be healthy and vegetarian, but, you have to have a very good understanding of nutrition. It is much harder to get the same nutrition as nourishment from a vegetarian diet. Not impossible, just harder... and just taking dietary supplements ain't a good solution.
[/b]
oh yeah, totally

it's hard enough as it is for non-vegetarians to get all the nutrients they need,...take away meat and you have b-complex vitamins to worry about, essential amino acids, fatty acids, essential cholesterol...what a pain in the rump

that said, we should all just switch to Soylent Green and be done with it

[PhowaBoy]

I've been eating Soylent Green for years now. It's the perfect balance of nutrients, unless you get some 'Hobo' Soylent Green. That's usually quite gamey and not as healthy. :gator:

[PenguinLord13]

Hmmmm. I'm not gonna say I don't LOVE meant, cos that would be a total lie, but I still strongly believe that IF you're a good cook, or at least passable, such as yours truly, you can make vegetarian meals that are JUST as nice as most meat dishes. But admittedly, meat... is good.

As for the ethical side of things? I can understand vegtarianism, and to a certain extent, veganism. But, it's just not something that I myself subscribe to.

My biggest concern with veganism and vegetarianism, however, is the nutrition side of things. Iy IS possible to be healthy and vegetarian, but, you have to have a very good understanding of nutrition. It is much harder to get the same nutrition as nourishment from a vegetarian diet. Not impossible, just harder... and just taking dietary supplements ain't a good solution.
[/b]

Forget vegetarianism. It's almost impossible to get good nutrition if you're a vegan. Worse if you have an allergy to gluten too...

[The Blue Meanie]

Forget vegetarianism. It's almost impossible to get good nutrition if you're a vegan. Worse if you have an allergy to gluten too...
[/b]
No, I wouldn't say it's almost impossible. I have a few vegetarian friends, and one vegan friend. He's very healthy, and not really skinny either. It's definitely POSSIBLE, but you have to put a lot of time and effort and thought into getting the same nutrition.

[NeAvO]

The thing is I'd couldn't be a vegetarian. I'd have to a have a variety in my food, couldn't just eat salads all the time or fruit. :?