This topic is for Atheists only!(Jesus isn't my saviour,etc. [Archive]

bradybaker

03-02-2005, 11:31 PM

Originally posted by dream-scape+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dream-scape)</div>Going with an atheist view, this life would be the only thing anyone ever experiences... so how could it be short or long in itself? It has to be compared to the life of something else.[/b]
Tomato, Tomoto.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Paperdoll EP)</div>it's not important to you at all, to find out what happens to you after you die? life is short. after that, it's an eternity...wouldn't you like to know for sure how that eternity will be spent?[/b]
When I'm sure that death is just about upon me, I'm not going to be scared like most other (religious) people. I'm gonna be pretty pumped to find out what actually happens. My gut feeling, most logical opinion and best guess are that nothing at all happens, you simply cease to be. But how the hell do I know that?

<!--QuoteBegin-OpheliaBlue
pps. So incredibly off topic: how do you feel about the whole Santa Claus thing and kids?
LOL. Like religion, it's just another way that kids are sheltered from reality.

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Wow, I'm pretty pleased at how this thread is turning out. I'm glad that no pure troublemakers have come to mess it up.

OpheliaBlue

03-03-2005, 07:10 AM

Originally posted by bradybaker+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bradybaker)</div><!--QuoteBegin-OpheliaBlue
pps. So incredibly off topic: how do you feel about the whole Santa Claus thing and kids?
LOL. Like religion, it's just another way that kids are sheltered from reality.[/b]
You're probably the first person I've ever met who agrees with me on that.

I have a 16 month old, so he doesn't grasp the whole Christmas thing yet. But it's so damn hard. On the one hand, I don't want to lie to him about the whole Santa thing, just to say "Ha ha, just kidding" when he's old enough to start questioning Santa's existance. On the other hand, it could alienate him in school if he's the only, or one of the few, that doesn't believe in Santa. I can just hear the phone ringing from all those pissed parents: "Your son told my little Charlie that there is no Santa!!!"

Plus I can't figure out which way he'll resent me more: if I deny him the whole Santa experience, OR if I lead him to believe Santa exists while at the same time raising him to be open-minded and scientific. It's a big fat contradiction.

Rakkantekimusouka

03-03-2005, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by OpheliaBlue
I have a 16 month old, so he doesn't grasp the whole Christmas thing yet. But it's so damn hard. On the one hand, I don't want to lie to him about the whole Santa thing, just to say \"Ha ha, just kidding\" when he's old enough to start questioning Santa's existance. On the other hand, it could alienate him in school if he's the only, or one of the few, that doesn't believe in Santa. I can just hear the phone ringing from all those pissed parents: \"Your son told my little Charlie that there is no Santa!!!\"

Plus I can't figure out which way he'll resent me more: if I deny him the whole Santa experience, OR if I lead him to believe Santa exists while at the same time raising him to be open-minded and scientific. It's a big fat contradiction.

Well, I asked my Mom why she -- and other adults -- perpetuate the whole Santa Claus myth when it's really just a blatant lie, and she said something like \"Well, it's fun\".

O...K. Hey, if that's acceptable, if I ever have kids -- which I probably won't, but if for some reason I do, and for some reason we celebrate Christmas, which we probably won't, but if for some reason we do -- I'm gonna make up my own explanation for who left presents, and ate the cookies, etc.

Hey, why not? It's the same thing -- just not as commercialized and popularized. Why? Because it'll be fun.

Oh, and bradybaker?

Originally posted by Paperdoll EP
HAHAHAHAHAH!!! LOLSLOLSLOLS.

oh wait, it's not funny. you've already joked about it in his thread, now you're just being a jerk. or rather, more of a jerk. shut the fuck up.

Agreed. You know, I used to at least respect you and your point of view until you started pulling this blatant attack and spite crud, like posting that stuff in Abstraction's thread and then creating this one with almost identical title.

OpheliaBlue

03-03-2005, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by Rakkantekimusouka
Agreed. You know, I used to at least respect you and your point of view until you started pulling this blatant attack and spite crud.
When was he spiteful or attacking?

Unless you mean another thread, I didn't get that from him in this thread. A little sarcastic at times, but sarcasm is more than generally used and accepted on these boards. Or so I've noticed.

bradybaker

03-03-2005, 11:30 AM

Originally posted by OpheliaBlue
I can just hear the phone ringing from all those pissed parents: \"Your son told my little Charlie that there is no Santa!!!\"

Plus I can't figure out which way he'll resent me more: if I deny him the whole Santa experience, OR if I lead him to believe Santa exists while at the same time raising him to be open-minded and scientific.
Yeah, that's kind of a toughy. I think that the best way to go is to let the kid make up their own mind. I'm not going to push my children towards religion or science or Santa or the Easter Bunny, I'm just going to let them figure it all out for themselves. My parents did pull the whole Santa deal, but other than that they never really forced any kind of a belief structure on me. They took me to church (I actually got kicked out of Sunday school for asking too many questions), but never told me to believe anything.

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Originally posted by Ramu+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ramu)</div> :goodjob2: :sniper: <--- 3 people

InTheMoment

03-03-2005, 11:54 AM

bradybaker
My parents did pull the whole Santa deal, but other than that they never really forced any kind of a belief structure on me. They took me to church (I actually got kicked out of Sunday school for asking too many questions), but never told me to believe anything.[/b]

Same here, except I went to a private Christian school up till about 5th grade and each Wed. we would have bible studies (basically Sun. school on a different day of the week). I was removed from the class when I asked the preacher a loaded question about Noah's Ark. He had just finished describing how Noah collected 2 of every specie of animal and put them aboard the Ark, where they would spend the next 40 days & 40 nigths (give or take).

I was infamous for asking questions (not too be a little ass, but because I just wasn't buying it). When asked what did the elephants eat while on the Ark he said "hay and straw of course...and before you ask your next question, YES there was plenty of room on the Ark to accommodate enough hay and straw to sustain the animals." I then asked "well what did the lions eat?" :hrm:

I was promptly removed and disciplined (paddle to the butt in those days). Then they had the nerve to call my mom in and to question her parenting methods. She of course flipped and said some less than Holy words, disenrolled me and my brother and filed a lawsuit against the principle for the paddling that he had given my rear end. :|

Rakkantekimusouka

03-03-2005, 12:04 PM

Originally posted by OpheliaBlue
Same here, except I went to a private Christian school up till about 5th grade and each Wed. we would have bible studies (basically Sun. school on a different day of the week). I was removed from the class when I asked the preacher a loaded question about Noah's Ark. He had just finished describing how Noah collected 2 of every specie of animal and put them aboard the Ark, where they would spend the next 40 days & 40 nigths (give or take).

I was infamous for asking questions (not too be a little ass, but because I just wasn't buying it). When asked what did the elephants eat while on the Ark he said \"hay and straw of course...and before you ask your next question, YES there was plenty of room on the Ark to accommodate enough hay and straw to sustain the animals.\" I then asked \"well what did the lions eat?\" :hrm:

I was promptly removed and disciplined (paddle to the butt in those days). Then they had the nerve to call my mom in and to question her parenting methods. She of course flipped and said some less than Holy words, disenrolled me and my brother and filed a lawsuit against the principle for the paddling that he had given my rear end. :|

ROFLMAO! Sorry, but I just found that incredibly hilarious...sounds like something out of a classic comedy -- and probably is, somewhere. Luckily, I never attended any parochial schools. I did take Religious Education classes at one point, and at the very end, where we all got our few moments with Sister Rosemary to ask last-minute questions, I said, "Do you think there could be other gods?". The look on her face was quite priceless.

wasup

03-03-2005, 02:16 PM

Ramu - He honestly didn't do anything that offending. I don't see why people got so angry at him... if anything... it was the other people's fault because they escalated the VERY minor situation that bradybaker "brought up" (which I don't really think was anything, anyways).

Also... no offence... but it is kind of rude to apologize on another's behalf because you cannot really do that... it's not like it means anything anyways.

Sorry I had to jump in.

Rakkantekimusouka

03-03-2005, 02:17 PM

*Sigh* You're right, wasup...

*hangs head* I'm sorry, brady...

nightowl

03-04-2005, 01:50 PM

Im going to have to step in to just a little bit. I don't think Brady was being rude or anything. Sarcastic at the most(probably not wise to do it to a newbie since she/he wouldn't get it, but it was pretty harmless). I pretty much agree with what ophelia and wasup said so i won't repeat.

Besides this topic is now a serious one and is promoting good conversation and no spiteful attitudes.

Back on topic: Ophelia: I never knew how much we agreed on this matter. brady to :)

I used to care, seriously. But the moment that it \"clicked\" with me that there's no afterlife (in my opinion), I stopped caring about living my life with respect to something I don't even believe in. [/b]
I at first worried about it to when i was younger. It sorta bothered me that every action i did was to be judged upon my death. I dunno how, but i grew questionative and i came to the conclusion that people made up the idea of heaven just so that they can feel comfort that there is something after death and possibly feel more important. I just don't care anymore. Like what you said. \"I find so much more satisfaction and contentment now in just believing in myself. And believing that being kind to all living things in general attracts more kindness. I need nothing more.\" I feel much more complete when i help someone or be kind to a person than going to church on a sunday morning and listening to my priest about damnation and salvation. I just didn't like it how I HAD to worship, pray, go to church, and listen to a thousand year old book...and for what? For a guy whose existence can't be proven and sends everyone to hell who doesn't believe in him regardless that everyone is his child? Self-reliance and confidence is pretty much all i need to be satisfied with myself and how i live my life.

That's how it was for me too. I believed in God until I was about 14 or 15 and then asked myself, why? And I realized that it was only because it was what I had been told to believe and what made me feel good. It took me a while to actually admit that I didn't believe in God because it was a bit frightening at first (especially when you live in a 95% Catholic town). But now I think that I'm much more happy in life than I ever could've been before. [/b]
Same. Im 16, going onto 17 and at about that age i started really questioning everything. I, like you, haven been told what to believe without anyone asking me what I believe. My parents pushed their beliefs on me and still do. They don't know that i dont believe in god and if they found out, who knows what drastic measures they would inflict on me. Its obvious they don't like or accept any other religion to. I suppose I am happier now :)

As for what happens after I die, I'm completely satisfied with the thought that I'll just \"turn off\" like a light switch, and my molecules return to the earth. Kinda transcendental and peaceful like[/b]
Agreed. I'm pretty OK with that as well, just to die and become nothing. To me, it doesn't sound too bad. It's a LOT better than your soul being burned for eternity IMO. As long as i feel that I was a good person and helped others and believed in myself, then Im good to go :)

And ophelia as for the santa thing. I'll tell you my story. My parents never taught my brother and I about Santa claus so I'm probably the guy to talk to. Really, the whole thing didn't affect my life at school at all. People don't, or at least not to me, ask what santa get you. They all just said what you'd for christmas? If they did ask, the only thing that would probably happen is them say \"What? you dont know who santa is?!\" and then possibly just remain dumbfounded as to how he could not know. I dont think they'd go so far as to make fun of him though. Anyway I've never heard of Santa claus untill i was about 9 i think. I just accepted that it was a holiday to give gifts to the ones you love. Let me tell you though. I did believe in the tooth fairy and when someone else told me that she wasn't real I was pretty devastated, so imagine how your son would feel if he found out santa wasn't real. I dunno, take that as you will :)

I'm gonna make up my own explanation for who left presents, and ate the cookies, etc. [/b]
hmm..great idea!

InTheMoment: your story is hilarious

now i gotta go to driving school...i'll add more later though

Barbizzle

03-04-2005, 06:35 PM

Well, I am an atheist. My parents always sent me to Hebrew school, and I never liked it (well I loved learning about the culture and language) I can't say I ever believed I god. I remember when I was little that I told my mom I didn't believe in god and she got mad. So for years I just never said anything again. Then when I was 14 I really started not to care what people thought, so I was a declared atheists. I mean seriously, god seems so ancient, the idea I mean, and its useless now-a-days (to me at least) why people belvie in god, ill never know. But then again, I'm very unspiritual person, as in I don't belvie in astral projection or anything like that either...

OpheliaBlue

03-04-2005, 09:00 PM

Originally posted by InTheMoment
I then asked \"well what did the lions eat?\" :hrm:
I was promptly removed and disciplined (paddle to the butt in those days).
Bastards. :mad:

My barbizzle friend...you just said a cotton-pickin' mouthful.

03-04-2005, 09:03 PM

Originally posted by InTheMoment
bradybaker
My parents did pull the whole Santa deal, but other than that they never really forced any kind of a belief structure on me. They took me to church (I actually got kicked out of Sunday school for asking too many questions), but never told me to believe anything.

Same here, except I went to a private Christian school up till about 5th grade and each Wed. we would have bible studies (basically Sun. school on a different day of the week). I was removed from the class when I asked the preacher a loaded question about Noah's Ark. He had just finished describing how Noah collected 2 of every specie of animal and put them aboard the Ark, where they would spend the next 40 days & 40 nigths (give or take).

I was infamous for asking questions (not too be a little ass, but because I just wasn't buying it). When asked what did the elephants eat while on the Ark he said \"hay and straw of course...and before you ask your next question, YES there was plenty of room on the Ark to accommodate enough hay and straw to sustain the animals.\" I then asked \"well what did the lions eat?\" :hrm:

I was promptly removed and disciplined (paddle to the butt in those days). Then they had the nerve to call my mom in and to question her parenting methods. She of course flipped and said some less than Holy words, disenrolled me and my brother and filed a lawsuit against the principle for the paddling that he had given my rear end. :|[/b]

Whoa, thats so lame, and so typical...
reminds me of this part of the song "the Decline" by NOFX

The story book's been read
And every line believed
Curriculum's been set
Logic is a threat
Reason searched and seized

Kaniaz

03-06-2005, 08:34 AM

Originally posted by OpheliaBlue+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(OpheliaBlue)</div>Originally posted by bradybaker@
<!--QuoteBegin-OpheliaBlue
pps. So incredibly off topic: how do you feel about the whole Santa Claus thing and kids?
LOL. Like religion, it's just another way that kids are sheltered from reality.
You're probably the first person I've ever met who agrees with me on that.[/b]

Really? I was annoyed at my parents for lying to me about the whole fat man shiz.

I'm atheist. My mom dosen't like me doing that because she says "It's nice to believe in god." Infalliable reasoning... My views are pretty simple - no god. We have one big fat universe and it dosen't give a dick if you die or not. Still, it *does not* stop you from having a good time and enjoying your life.

OpheliaBlue

03-06-2005, 09:03 AM

Originally posted by Kaniaz
My mom dosen't like me doing that because she says \"It's nice to believe in god.\" Infalliable reasoning...
Tell your mom "it's nice" to let you go to the DV convention.

Mickeys_Elbow

03-12-2005, 03:23 AM

I remember always knowing about Santa Clause but I also remember always knowing he wasn't real. He was presented to me as a fun fictional character, and I got presents from him, but I knew my parents put them there. Sort of like Smokey the Bear or Ronald McDonald, only he'd visit the mall and gave me candy.

I was raised a catholic. When I was younger my parents brought me to church with them but once I was around 15-16 I quit going. My worldview changes all the time, or at least everytime I think of some different way of looking at things, but I have always believed in a higher purpose (not necessarily a higher being). After all, something started it... I think it was the mice.

syzygy

03-21-2005, 04:45 PM

I'm not against atheists, I just have never understood why you would call yourself that. I am in no way a Christian trying to convert anyone, but I'm starting to realize why people call themselves atheist. First, this can only happen after Christianity, with a history of God. You never find atheists come out of Buddhism or anyother religion because there was never a God to say you don't believe exists. Calling yourself atheist is playing by Christian rules. Now I'm not against Christians either, I just think most of them have the religion wrong, which in turn creates people who go against it. In fact, I think some people who call themselves atheist can be more like Christ than most people who think they are Christian.

Are you actually against God and Christ, or are you against the church's idea of them? I do think that what the church says actually goes against what Jesus said. I do not consider myself Christian more than any other religion, I think they all have something great to offer, if you know what you are looking for. I think they are all saying the same thing, if you go to the root. Christianity is just more symbolic than say Buddhism or Taoism, but they say the same thing. Most Christians do not know this, nor want to think about it because they want a religion all to themselves. Because of this, they twist their religion around and confuse themselves, along with everyone else. I think atheists are just against the main stream Christianity, so calling yourself that is pointless in my opinion. You can still believe what you believe without labelling yourself an atheist, unless you want to establish yourself against your idea of Christianity.

I hear a lot of atheists say they believe death is the end, and thats it, your done. To me, this does not make much sense, but I do not believe in the standard Heaven and Hell, either. Do you think that you came from nothing and will return to nothing? How is that possible? Nothing is not possible since something exists. If you become nothing, that is in relation to something, which in turn makes it not nothing. I do not believe in an afterlife, I believe life is the only thing, you were alive before, now, and forever, death is an illusion, a dream. When you die, you wake up into another dream. When your body dies, it goes back to the earth, it does not turn into nothing, so why would your essence become nothing? You are beyond your body, physical death is the end of one life and the beginning of another. Your essence cannot be found in the physical realm. What exactly is consciousness? Where does it exist? Can you even think about it? Your being is beyond the physical world, beyond your intellect, beyond time. It was never born, so it can never be destroyed, it is just recycled into something else, just like matter. This is my view of God, I also call it Consciousness, Buddha, Tao, Christ, Allah, Ultimate Reality, whatever you want.

Reality is a subjective experience, so I see how an objective God that most Christians want everyone to believe can be offputting. But I don't see why it is necessary to put yourself in relation to that idea. Calling yourself atheist is playing by Christian rules. Now all of this is my opinion. I am in no way trying to say that atheism is not a possible label, I just don't think its the proper label for what you truely believe. I am just looking for a reason why to call yourself atheist. If you are atheist, you have thought about it a lot more than I have, so please explain why you choose that label.

OpheliaBlue

03-21-2005, 05:01 PM

Originally posted by Mickeys_Elbow
Sort of like Smokey the Bear or Ronald McDonald, only he'd visit the mall and gave me candy.
LMAO

Actually, that's a cute idea. Presenting Santa as a fun thing, but always keeping it fictional. Like Halloween.

03-21-2005, 07:19 PM

Hrm? Where did my repy go. I must've closed my browser before I hit submit... shame.

Anyway.

Calling yourself atheist is playing by Christian rules.[/b]

Excuse me? Buddhism (for example) is just as much bullshit as Christianity is in my opinion.
Yes, Christianity also teaches many good and nice things, as does Buddhism. But both are riddled with bullshit, made up by people who couldnt believe there's nothing more to life.
The thing is, Christianity is just riddled with more bullshit. Buddhism is a very enlightened religion from what I've heard of it. The way most people seem to interpret Christianity is close-minded, judgemental, intolerant, contradictory and hypocritical. So thats why my main beef is with Christianity, also because its the religion I have to deal with the most.
Buddhism might seem fairly nice, but its still bullshit. Its just not for me. Just because I might like it doesnt mean thats the way the world works.
I dont just reject Christianity. I've rejected all.

You can still believe what you believe without labelling yourself an atheist, unless you want to establish yourself against your idea of Christianity.[/b]

How can I be an athiest if what I believe is something else then "we're all just vessels of blood and flesh and thats all there is to it"? If I "believed in what I believe" which would not be "that there's nothing more to life" then I would be labeled agnostic to say the least.

OpheliaBlue

03-21-2005, 07:37 PM

Originally posted by syzygy+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(syzygy)</div>If you are atheist, you have thought about it a lot more than I have, so please explain why you choose that label.[/b]
Well let's see what Webster has to say first.

<!--QuoteBegin-Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
One entry found for atheist.

Main Entry: athe·ist
Pronunciation: 'A-thE-ist
Function: noun
: one who believes that there is no deity

I label myself as atheist because I believe that there is no deity.

dream-scape

03-21-2005, 08:01 PM

Originally posted by CT
Buddhism (for example) is just as much bullshit as Christianity is in my opinion.... Buddhism is a very enlightened religion from what I've heard of it.

You can't go around making claims about something based on what you've heard.

For example, I've heard your mother is a whore. According to your logic, it would be ok for me to just go on thinking that is true.

The better way to approach it would be for me to say, I've heard that, but I don't know. I can't make any kind of real decision if she is or isn't until I experience and find out for myself.

If from what you've heard about Buddhism makes it sound like it is something definitely not for you, that is all well and good; but nothing about that gives any grounds for you to say if it is bullshit or not.

03-21-2005, 08:39 PM

Originally posted by dream-scape+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dream-scape)</div><!--QuoteBegin-CT
Buddhism (for example) is just as much bullshit as Christianity is in my opinion.... Buddhism is a very enlightened religion from what I've heard of it.

You can't go around making claims about something based on what you've heard.

For example, I've heard your mother is a whore. According to your logic, it would be ok for me to just go on thinking that is true.

The better way to approach it would be for me to say, I've heard that, but I don't know. I can't make any kind of real decision if she is or isn't until I experience and find out for myself.

If from what you've heard about Buddhism makes it sound like it is something definitely not for you, that is all well and good; but nothing about that gives any grounds for you to say if it is bullshit or not.[/b]

Thats bullshit. And totally besides the point.
I'm not sorry for not plastering \"in my opinion\" after every single sentance, I figured it was obvious that we were discussing opinions here, I never stated that I was stating the absolute truth there. I admit there is alot I dont know about Christianity, and Buddhism, but (magic keyword here :roll:) in my opinion I know enough about them to judge them. Dont be so offended, everyone has opinions and everyone judges everything.
so once again for you dream-scaper: All religions are complete and utter bullshit, however friendly and enlightening they are. In my opinion.
You could argue to define religion, but then we'd be arguing semantics and I'd rather not go into that, since english is not my first language so I'd lose by default, and we'd be arguing about something that is totally besides the point and I hate that.

[edit- something I missed before:]

For example, I've heard your mother is a whore. According to your logic, it would be ok for me to just go on thinking that is true.[/b]

Well, you heard my mother was a whore. If it seems like the source has plausible arguments to back it up, then yeah why not? Then it is logical for you to assume that my mother is a whore.

eccentric

03-21-2005, 09:48 PM

What about the practical side of religion? Prayer is about the same thing as religion (when scientists study the psychological effects of prayer, they sometimes use meditation) from an atheistic standpoint. There have been studies that show that meditation makes you quantifiably happier and healthier (National Geographic, March 2005, page 31, research by Richard Davidson and collaegues at the University of Wisconson). There are other benefits that you can logically figure out, such as improving focus - meditation is, after all, an exercise in focus. And it just physically feels good (that may take a 10 or 30 minutes.) In Zen Mind, Beginners Mind, Shunryu Suzuki said that Buddhists don't need to do drugs because they meditate, and that feels good, like drugs :) Prayer and meditation being equal, they both do the same good. There's a big difference between a religions philosophy and what its followers actually do. When I talk about religion, I usually take the realistic approach of what the followers do, and not what a book says. That's why you can't exactly talk about "Christianity" - are you talking about baptists, catholics, mormons, or fundementalists? Which one are you refering to when you talk about "The Church?" People usually use that phrase for catholocism, but not always. This kind of discussion is only constructive debate when people are somewhat specific. Otherwise you're just ranting.

When you say bullshit, CT, do you just mean that you don't like it, or that (in you opinion, of course) it's flat out not true? You haven't been very specific there :) (And this is questioning semantics, not arguing)

dream-scape

03-21-2005, 10:57 PM

Originally posted by CT
All religions are complete and utter bullshit

Then you are nothing but bullshit.

Whatever you believe in, that is your religion. If you believe in nothing, you are either a liar or are blind; belief in nothing is in itself a belief, and your religion if that is what you believe.

I don't care what you believe. Whatever it is, it is your religion. You are complete and utter bullshit.

03-21-2005, 11:42 PM

Originally posted by eccentric

When you say bullshit, CT, do you just mean that you don't like it, or that (in you opinion, of course) it's flat out not true? You haven't been very specific there :) (And this is questioning semantics, not arguing)

When I said bullshit, it was just a rude way of saying that they're (in my opinion) flat out not true because I felt like making a powerful statement.

In doing that, I must've pissed dream-scaper off since he seems very keen on dodging the original point an meaning of my posts and picking on the way I said things:

Then you are nothing but bullshit.

Whatever you believe in, that is your religion. If you believe in nothing, you are either a liar or are blind; belief in nothing is in itself a belief, and your religion if that is what you believe.

I don't care what you believe. Whatever it is, it is your religion. You are complete and utter bullshit.[/b]

Belief in nothing is still a belief in something, which is in turn always a religion? SEMANTICS!

Whatever fancy paradox with words that you come up with, still doesnt change the fact that believing in nothing is not a religion.

Do me a favor and dig up what this thread was about and post something on topic, and not imply a different meaning behind the way I phrased my previous posts. My point was clear, any further discussion is childish. I know you wont agree with me but either way I wont continue this petty and useless off-topic discussion about you deliberatly interpreting my posts in a different way that they were meant, so for me it ends here.

syzygy

03-22-2005, 02:44 AM

Originally posted by CT

Calling yourself atheist is playing by Christian rules.

Excuse me? Buddhism (for example) is just as much bullshit as Christianity is in my opinion.
Yes, Christianity also teaches many good and nice things, as does Buddhism. But both are riddled with bullshit, made up by people who couldnt believe there's nothing more to life.
The thing is, Christianity is just riddled with more bullshit. Buddhism is a very enlightened religion from what I've heard of it. The way most people seem to interpret Christianity is close-minded, judgemental, intolerant, contradictory and hypocritical. So thats why my main beef is with Christianity, also because its the religion I have to deal with the most.
Buddhism might seem fairly nice, but its still bullshit. Its just not for me. Just because I might like it doesnt mean thats the way the world works.
I dont just reject Christianity. I've rejected all. [/b]

What does your thinking Buddhism is bullshit have to do with Christianity being the birth of atheism? I am asking why you would define your beliefs by someone elses.

You could also say that just because you think there is nothing more to life, does not mean thats the way the world works. Why do you need something more than life, just that life exists and that you are conscious of it is a reason to look beyond the physical world.

And I do believe this thread was started as a parody of a Christian... my point again.

Lucius

03-22-2005, 05:49 AM

Wow, thats alot of bullshits in all those posts! =P :lol: bos merde! :P

Honestly, I dont think religion is crap from the male cow. Nor do I think Atheism is poo poo from the bull. I think there are alot of arguments that seem very legible to me to believe in one or the other. Ive stated in many topic and many discussion that I believe you will not be judged for your beliefs in a spiritual something or not (if there is something 'more' and if there isnt it wont matter either, would it?) I still think we should just follow our hearts to decide what you feel will help you most in life, to be at peace with yourself, others and your surroundings. Be it christianity, buddhism or atheism or anything else. My primary goal, and I what I feel should always be the primary goal is to be at 'peace' (very broad understanding to me, just like love).

Generally, I think religious people take their religion waaay too serious. And they also fail to recognise their own metaphors as such. For example, I am not by far a christian yet I believe in "Jezus". I dont think jezus is the saviour, the messiah or whatever. I dont think hes the son of god heck I dont even know if the guy existed or not. But thats not even the point to me. To me, Jezus means love, compassion, wisdom, kindness..etc. Just like buddha. I do find alot of things in buddhism that I feel comfortable with but its not my 'religion'.If there is something 'more' (I personally believe there is) we humans are abit silly to think we can know the absolute truth about it. We are not in the position to know how the universe works completely I think, its just impossible to know at this stage(aka nothing can explain everything at this point). That is why I get back to everything I continiously mention in all my 'deeper' posts. So simple, love, compassion, peace. They are real and universal, you cant deny that, at least I cant. This is all I know for sure, everything else is unsure, we just cant know. And we dont have to. And maybe there is nothing at all, thats possible. Even then, the goal of 'absolute peace' will bring nothing but positive things to all.

As long as somebody doesnt have a negative effect on anybody (including him/her self) and doesnt take things tooo serious its not bullshit to me. And hey, I might be right or I might be wrong when it comes down to my view on how this universe works (my higher spiritual thoughts in which there is no use in sharing them because they are only secondary to the views above) but thats ok.

I guess some people might find my thoughts on this stuff horsecrap (a different word for a change) aswell. :P But oh wells, I will just smile like I always do. That is something I know aswell, smiling is very important in life and in whatever other life that might follow :D

Oh wait..I reconsider, the true god is:
:cookiemonster:
Now worship him or burn in the eternal fields of the most disgusting veggies where no cookies exist!

Howie

03-22-2005, 06:33 AM

Wow. That was some interesting reading. After reading all that how do you feel about Lucid Dreaming BradyBaker?

I think relgious people attach spirits, demons and the like to lucid dreaming because they attach it to everything in theie life. Even more so if it is a misunderstood topic like lucid dreaming.
It is a cult you know! :shakehead2:

My two cents is that lucid dreaming, if you look at it in it's basic form is no more than a natural function of the phyce. Just as dreaming is. It sometimes takes a mechanical process to do it. But otherwise it should be considered know physically differant than your subconscious mind mingling with your conscious mind, just the other way around.

OpheliaBlue

03-22-2005, 07:38 AM

Originally posted by Lucius
Wow, thats alot of bullshits in all those posts! =P :lol: bos merde! :P

Honestly, I dont think religion is crap from the male cow. Nor do I think Atheism is poo poo from the bull.
HAHAHAHA Lucius!

Ok my turn. Religion is Kuh Scheiß.

No wait, that's "cow shit." I meant Stier Scheiß.

Actually I agree with Lucius. It's Stier Scheiß to call ANYone's beliefs Stier Scheiß, even if they ARE Stier Scheiß.

brb gotta take a scheiß

bradybaker

03-22-2005, 02:26 PM

Alright, here's the obsveration I've made throughout this thread and countless others.

Atheists - have logical thought, reasoning and observation behind their beliefs that is based in reality (our reality).

Theists - cannot come up with one logical argument to support their beliefs. All they can do is attempt to poke holes in the atheist's theory by saying things like:
Originally posted by dream-scaper+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dream-scaper)</div>I don't care what you believe. Whatever it is, it is your religion.[/b]
<!--QuoteBegin-dream-scaper
I can't make any kind of real decision if she is or isn't until I experience and find out for myself.

Their other infallible arguments include the now classic, \"you can't prove God doesn't exist, therefore God does.\", and other greats, like \"Science can't explain everything\", \"I choose to believe because it gives me hope and makes me a better person\", and \"I've spoken with God, so I know he exists\".

Please, someone prove me wrong. Someone, please show me some logical thinking and not just a categorical denial of our obviously valid points.

Originally posted by Howetzer
After reading all that how do you feel about Lucid Dreaming BradyBaker?
I'm not really sure how you're tying lucid dreaming and religion together...I've never viewed them as remotely connected....elaborate?

Lucius

03-22-2005, 03:34 PM

Originally posted by bradybaker

Please, someone prove me wrong. Someone, please show me some logical thinking and not just a categorical denial of our obviously valid points.

This is not the way I normally put things but..lets me try if the more..err, atheist way?

Is has been researched and concluded that the largest part of the population has for a main goal in life (or among other goals) for them and for their loved ones (and more idealistically, all people aswell) to be happy and find fulfilment. Regardless of what they might believe on a higher level everybody wants to be happy. Neh? Nobody wants to be sad, depressed, an emotional wreck and die knowing your life sucked balls.

Now, psychologically speaking it has been proven that also very large large majority (if not all people) require love and kindness from others to be happy. There might be a person here or there that claims that he does not need the love and the smile of others around him (with love I mean it in a very broad sense, romance, friendship, compassion, acceptance, trust and so on and so forth, love for your fellow soul, or men if you so prefer) but I dont believe them. And I think deep down inside they are not that happy at all and they will not spend their entire lifes claiming this, they will give in at some point and their life will, have sucked balls.

As you can see if we humans require love (again in a very broad) to make the most of out life. And any normal minded person would want everybody to make the most of their lives, yes? BEcause everybody has the right to be happy. Now, certain individuals, like me, search for ways to increase this love so we, and everybody else can be a tiny bit happier in life. And for some people, like me, a spiritual view on things helps enhance this inner love even more. Love itself (and Im not talking about the chemical in your brain when you fall in 'romantic love' which is a coutner argument I could expect, compassion is not a chemical) is godly to me. God is love, jezus is love, buddha is love, whatever.

I do not claim to know how the universe works. But I do know that my ratio and my own logic and brain tell me that love and compassion and such are the primary values we humans NEED to survive. When all our fancy technology would disapear, when all our belongings would be gone, when all our fake appearences would be stripped, this is all there really is, what we can rely on, eachother. Would you not agree that this is something we need, so would you not agree that is only logical for me to search for ways to increase the love? (silly statement but you get my point). And if it happens to be that certain spiritual views can help me with that, is it then not a rational thing to do to make those part of your belief system. It would be very irrational to use a little axe to chop down a tree while there is a chainsaw nearby, even if you dont know for 100% if that chainsaw will be real in the end, it does the trick. Because almost every single religion preaches those things at its core, and I like to put a 'face' to things, a representation, but that doesnt mean I literally beleive in them. As I dont 'love' because I am a buddhist, I am a buddhist because I 'love' (Im not a real buddhist, but yeah)

I hope you are starting to see where I am coming from, looking at it in a way where no 'higher spiritual something would exist with 100% certainty'. Im sure you still think Im being fairly illogical, but I did my best haha :D :P ^_^"

I still wonder though, why are some atheists (or similar minded) bothered alot sometimes by 'relgious' people? I mean..if you believe everything ends after death, that what would it matter anyway? Why not shrug and live your life the way you want it and be happy? I can see though that some people might enjoy debate on this, or they might be annoyed with other people's 'ignorance'? Or they might feel annoyed because of people telling them how very wrong they are and they will 'burn in hell' or such. Just wondering :)

Howie

03-23-2005, 06:40 AM

Howetzer wrote:
After reading all that how do you feel about Lucid Dreaming BradyBaker?
Originally posted by bradybaker
I'm not really sure how you're tying lucid dreaming and religion together...I've never viewed them as remotely connected....elaborate?

I myself am not trying to connect the two, rather the opposite. My point is that religious people will connect religion to lucid dreaming as they will connect relgion to anything in their life. Thus if they come across lucid dreaming they will inventually, at some point turn it into something religous.
I think it has nothing to do with relgion.

Your question;
I'm wondering what you all think about this. I noticed there is a lot of \"new age\" influence with this spirit seeker stuff and all that... Seems like something that's really stupid to me.... and while I'm highly intrigued by lucid dreaming, I just want to be very careful that I'm not doing something that sensible people might think has something to do with that sort of thing. [/b]

Quite franlky it is sad to say but from what I personally have experianced, most sensible people will consider it whacky. Because they don't understant it.
The point I was trying to make earlier is that somehow, even though lucid dreaming is a natural, SENSIBLE, physical reaction to ones mental pysce it has somehow been cast into the catagories or realm of withcraft, mysteries, occults and so on. This bringing people of reason to regard it as not being sensible.

Mystical_Journey

03-23-2005, 08:37 AM

I agree with Lucius on this and respect the amount of thought and time he has put into this post. My ultimate desire is for people to find happiness without disrupting or challenging other peoples ‘perceptive’ of happiness, be it Atheist, Agnostic or follower of a particular Faith. I wish for happiness in peoples life and my own, what more could we ask for? Man is relentlessly accustomed to Fear, its what drives man to spiritual and psychical death, why not give a hand to love, like the Beatles Song says, “All you need is Love” and not to discredit John Lennon’s amazingly powerful ‘Imagine’ (lol) The foundation of all religious thought after taking away obstacles of differentiation there exists a common theme, an underlining unison of parallel thinking: Peace, Happiness, Truth and Justice (I guess there’s more but I’m no expert).

I’m not associated to one mainstream religious train of thought, but understand the source of most religious reflection and see compassionate attitudes that desire happiness in almost all mainstream manifestations of ‘religion’.

It doesn’t matter if your a Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Catholic, Jew, Pagan (the list could fill the page-LOL) as long as we feel connected to each other and don’t allow the negative aspects of religion take control of the positive aspects of our core spirituality. I dislike when individuals judge each other, the mistake comes from labelling yourself and defining ourselves by religion with identity tags on our foreheads (before you take into consideration where your born, your interests, what your name is, who your family are, what makes you laugh etc) because it shows the importance you put onto your faith above everything else like friendship, compassion, trust, acceptance.

I’m not an expect like Lucius but I understand this message of respect we have to show each other in order to make ourselves happy therefore making the people around us feel comfortable (I know I sound gay but who gives a shit?).

We are all in the same boat why not make it less stressful and more humorous (lol).

Monty Pythons “Meaning of Life” is a good step in the right direction :D

Lady Presenter: M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations. And, finally, here are some completely gratuitous pictures of penises to annoy the censors and to hopefully spark some sort of controversy, which, it seems, is the only way, these days, to get the jaded, video-sated public off their fucking arses and back in the sodding cinema. Family entertainment? Bollocks. What they want is filth: people doing things to each other with chainsaws during tupperware parties, babysitters being stabbed with knitting needles by gay presidential candidates, vigilante groups strangling chickens, armed bands of theatre critics exterminating mutant goats. Where's the fun in pictures? Oh, well, there we are. Here's the theme music. Goodnight. [/b]

OpheliaBlue

03-23-2005, 09:09 AM

Holy heck, ok.

The reason people can believe in something that has no proof of existence, is because they have faith.

So the real question, is why do people have faith? Because they need it to fill some empty space? So they won't fear death? So they won't feel so much despair at the thought of never again seeing loved ones that have died? Because they want to be sure that the guy who murdered their mom and was never caught will go to hell so that they'll have "justice"?

I have always been fascinated by the whole psychology behind the purpose of having faith in that which cannot be proven. And it always seem to be in place to fill some kind of gap. Perhaps believeing in oneself and having a stronger character will alleviate this need for myths, legends & fairytales. Just a thought.

Peace
xoxo

Yume

03-23-2005, 11:46 PM

Originally posted by OpheliaBlue
Holy heck, ok.

The reason people can believe in something that has no proof of existence, is because they have faith.

So the real question, is why do people have faith? Because they need it to fill some empty space? So they won't fear death? So they won't feel so much despair at the thought of never again seeing loved ones that have died? Because they want to be sure that the guy who murdered their mom and was never caught will go to hell so that they'll have \"justice\"?

I have always been fascinated by the whole psychology behind the purpose of having faith in that which cannot be proven. And it always seem to be in place to fill some kind of gap. Perhaps believeing in oneself and having a stronger character will alleviate this need for myths, legends & fairytales. Just a thought.

Peace
xoxoThe reason why I believe in religion is because I see that it is more logical that the world was made by a supreme being. My religion just makes sense and it can connect with my life. I use a mix of Science and Religion to further prove the existance and logic in both. To bash a religion just shows that you fail at your own beliefs because you feel a need to try to make your beliefs higher by trying to make other people feel bad. That is why I don't like many religious discussions because people are too stupid to know the point of proving someone wrong and telling them that everything they have known is bad and untrue. I have seen it go over the top here. I won't name anyone, but it really annoys me to see things like that happen. I believe it because it is real to me and that is all that matters because in reality your opinion means nothing to me. If you give me facts I care, but raw opinion I laugh at because in an hour I will probably forget it. You all are great people, but just make sure to watch what you are doing because you could make yourself look like an idiot.

bradybaker

03-24-2005, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by Lucius+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lucius)</div>Love itself (and Im not talking about the chemical in your brain when you fall in 'romantic love' which is a coutner argument I could expect, compassion is not a chemical) is godly to me. God is love, jezus is love, buddha is love, whatever.[/b]
I agreed with pretty much everything you said up until this statement, where all logic evaporated. It's not that I don't respect your opinion, I do, but that's all it is, an opinion. The definition of 'love' from an evolutionary and chemical standpoint makes much more logical sense and is much more consistent with our observation of reality. And just because you predicted the counter-argument does not make that argument invalid.

Originally posted by Lucius@
I do not claim to know how the universe works. But I do know that my ratio and my own logic and brain tell me that love and compassion and such are the primary values we humans NEED to survive.
Agreed. But that does not make it supernatural in anyway. Love is a word, not a physical thing, what matters is simply the connection that it implies. That connection is fully explainable through the process of natural selection of genetic material.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Yume)</div>The reason why I believe in religion is because I see that it is more logical that the world was made by a supreme
being[/b]
Please, the suspense is killing me! Reveal the logic behind that statement.
Originally posted by Yume+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Yume)</div>I use a mix of Science and Religion to further prove the existance and logic in both.[/b]
I'd really like to hear that too.
<!--QuoteBegin-Yume@
I believe it because it is real to me and that is all that matters because in reality your opinion means nothing to me.
Such closemindedness is very unfortunate.
<!--QuoteBegin-Yume
watch what you are doing because you could make yourself look like an idiot.
Yeah...I sure wouldn't want anyone to think I was an idiot. :hrm:

Yume

03-24-2005, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by bradybaker+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bradybaker)</div>Mostly I just like debating though. I have way too much time on my hands...

Originally posted by Yume+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Yume)The reason why I believe in religion is because I see that it is more logical that the world was made by a supreme
being[/b]
Please, the suspense is killing me! Reveal the logic behind that statement.
Originally posted by Yume
I use a mix of Science and Religion to further prove the existance and logic in both.
I'd really like to hear that too.
Originally posted by Yume
I believe it because it is real to me and that is all that matters because in reality your opinion means nothing to me.
Such closemindedness is very unfortunate.
<!--QuoteBegin-Yume@
watch what you are doing because you could make yourself look like an idiot.
Yeah...I sure wouldn't want anyone to think I was an idiot. :hrm:[/b]Point A: I think that it is more likely that the world was made by a supreme being than any other reason out there. It just seems by my common sense that there is someone that created the earth and us to live out our lives. Other ways of looking at it are less likely to me.

Point B: Instead of hindering each other I like to see them work together. An example of this is why I shouldn't eat pork. Pigs are so much like humans it basically means you eat pork you are almost a cannibal. It is the most unhealthy meat out there that humans intake. Both science and religion back up my reasons not to eat pork.

Point C: You should really read the whole thing. I do not care about opinions towards things like religions. If you give me true facts about a religion then I will listen, but things like I don't think it is right or you are inferior because you think this way are just ridiculous.

<!--QuoteBegin-bradybaker
I firmly believe that 89% (or whatever the number is now) of the world's population suffer from a form of self-reinforcing delusion that they call \"faith\".[/quote]

I do not think you shouldn't have an opinion and infact be my guest, but I think opinions have no real validity unless backed up with real reasons to support them. It is not being close-minded. It is filtering out the information that is close-minded without any proof of it.

Point D: At least you aren't trying to purposely go against someone and laugh and make fun of them. At least I hope you aren't.

bradybaker

03-24-2005, 07:56 PM

Originally posted by Yume+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Yume)</div>Point A: I think that it is more likely that the world was made by a supreme being than any other reason out there. It just seems by my common sense that there is someone that created the earth and us to live out our lives.[/b]
Can you provide any justification for that statement? (ie. specific observations that support your theory)

Originally posted by Yume+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Yume)</div>Pigs are so much like humans it basically means you eat pork you are almost a cannibal.[/b]
'Almost' only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

<!--QuoteBegin-Yume@
Point C: You should really read the whole thing. I do not care about opinions towards things like religions. If you give me true facts about a religion then I will listen, but things like I don't think it is right or you are inferior because you think this way are just ridiculous.
So let me get this straight, you don't care about opinions. Only facts. But you choose to 'believe' in something that is not supported by a single fact? You've chosen something to believe in that is unfalsifiable and now you demand facts to change that view. Ever heard of green homunculi?

It basically goes like this: Every single human (you, me, everyone) actually has a little alien creature inside your skull instead of a 'brain'. There is no such thing as a brain, only these creatures called homunculi that control everything you do. You've never seen a brain inside someone's head, so obviously you only assume its there because people tell you that it is, and you've seen pictures of 'brains'. But really, it's just a little green homunculi that controls everything you do. And if you were to cut open someone's skull and look inside, what would you see? A brain of course, the homunculi inside your head can alter what you percieve to protect the identity of all green humonculi.

That's a rather famous example (that I explained pretty poorly) of an unfalsifiable argument. Try and prove it wrong, I dare you.

<!--QuoteBegin-Yume
I think opinions have no real validity unless backed up with real reasons to support them.
Am I missing something here? YOU HAVE OPINIONS WITH NO "REAL" REASONS TO SUPPORT THEM AND HOLD THEM AS VALID.

Yume

03-24-2005, 08:31 PM

Point A: Whne I read the beginning of Genesis they way God created the world seemed like it fit all together. How God created the earth made it believable. No scientific explanation had believable ways the earth was created. The way that it is described in the Torah makes it seem like a divine being created the earth.

Point B: "It is the most unhealthy meat out there that humans intake". You could eat healthier meats instead of eating pork. It creates the worst problems. You are screwing yourself over when you eat it.

Point C: Religion has many facts. You just haven't seem to encounter any. There are facts every day that religion can be proved. I think that you should go and seek those out on your own. It isn't set on a silver platter for you. If you have never found a fact proving religion correct it shows you are not very open-minded and don't look far from the tree.

As for your answer just check out your local morgue.

D: Give me an example please.

nightowl

03-24-2005, 09:49 PM

hah...this should be interesting.

syzygy

03-25-2005, 01:20 AM

bradybaker, there are many people who have directly experienced God, Allah, Ultimate Reality, Tao, Buddha-nature, whatever you want to call it in different cultures and different times and have explained the same experience. The Indian philosophers, the Christian mystics, the enlightened Zen masters, Islamic Sufis, Buddhas, shamans, many more. If you are interested, check out any of the following people: Mesiter Eckhart, D.T. Suzuki, Suhrawardi, Emmanuel Swedenborg, Gautama Buddha, Jesus Christ, William Law, Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu, Zoroaster, Jalal-uddin Rumi, Philo, Huang-Po, Plotinus, the list could go on.

Lucius

03-25-2005, 04:13 AM

These really are not the arguments Brady is looking for :P :wink: I guess its difficult for us theists to bring up truly 'logical' arguments from an atheists point of view. (I do my best though)

As for that entire list of people syzygy gave, I dont think that will convince Brady because they are no more opinions then lets say yours or mine, extremely wise and enlightened or not. And because they are so many that doesnt they are right, now he could put down a list of famous scientists and the like. And it will be back to the old tug-o war between religion and science.

Not saying anybody is right or wrong here, Im just looking at it from Brady's point of view =)

And also, Brady. Just wondering, but you think love and compassion are a chemical then? Im not talking about love for your family friends and lovers. But for complete strangers, the people who hate you/bash you and so on and so forth. And why does this extreme 'compassion' lack with some people? Chemical imbalance perhaps? (with them or the people that do feel it?)

And I must say I enjoy debate aswell, I mean I dont think you are going to change my mind but its interesting for me to hear about what you think. Aswell as what the others in this debate think. As long as we all genuinely keep smiling at eachother eh :D

syzygy

03-25-2005, 02:36 PM

I'm not trying to convince anybody or argue anything. I only listed those people because there are many examples of people from different cultures and different points in time that have come to the same conclusions based on personal experience. Those who are determined enough to experience God for themselves will go down their own personal path and reach the same common ground that all the people I listed reached, nonduality, the source of all existance. Once you experience this for yourself, you look at the world from a totally new, unimaginable perspective. Now what all these people experience is beyond words, beyond the intellect, beyond logic, so if you are looking for God in an explanation, in an answer to an arguement, you are never going to find the answer, in fact you are only going further away. It is not something you can think of or reason to yourself because in order to understand it, you have to get rid of your idea of self that is trying to constantly figure it out. Once you get rid of the idea that you are separate from everything, you realize that everything is one and God is all around you, inside you, and you. Then there is no more subject looking for an object, the two are one. This experience does not happen in your mind, it is with your whole being, pure consciousness. This is why the Buddha wouldn't argue metaphysics because he knew you can't find the answer there, it has to be a personal search to find your true self.

So you can argue back and forth all you want, just as long as you know that you can never explain it, think of it, or convince anyone of it. It has to be a personal search, you can only convince yourself by actually experiencing it, nothing less. If you are interested then take a look at the people I mentioned, if not, then continue what you were doing, simple as that.

bradybaker

03-25-2005, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by Yume
Point A: Whne I read the beginning of Genesis they way God created the world seemed like it fit all together. How God created the earth made it believable. No scientific explanation had believable ways the earth was created. The way that it is described in the Torah makes it seem like a divine being created the earth.
NOTE: When you say 'created the world', I'll assume you meant 'created the unverse\", because the world was formed by a little force we scientific people like to call gravity.

So, you're views on how the universe was created come from a 2000 year old fairy tale? Have you checked out the scientific explanations? No one has claimed to have proof of how the universe began, but there are some pretty intriguing explanations out there. From the Big Bang, to the Ekpyrotic model. Surely these theories, supported by various empirical observations, should have some merit. Also, why do you assume that the universe had a beginning?

Originally posted by Yume
Point B: \"It is the most unhealthy meat out there that humans intake\". You could eat healthier meats instead of eating pork. It creates the worst problems. You are screwing yourself over when you eat it
I'm not really here to argue about which meat to eat. When you tell me that pork is the most unhealthy meat that humans intake, I would tend to agree. But that's not going to stop me from eating it, you wouldn't believe the crap that our bodies are designed to digest. Most animals would die quickly if their diets contained the same percentage of cholesterol and saturated fats as the average human. Bacon tastes good, sausage tastes good, pork chops taste good.

Originally posted by Yume+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Yume)</div>Point C: Religion has many facts. You just haven't seem to encounter any. There are facts every day that religion can be proved. I think that you should go and seek those out on your own. It isn't set on a silver platter for you. If you have never found a fact proving religion correct it shows you are not very open-minded and don't look far from the tree.[/b]
Please, I'm begging you. Help me get started down the right path. Enlighten me with one fact supporting the existence of some Supreme Being.

Originally posted by Yume+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Yume)</div>As for your answer just check out your local morgue.[/b]
You missed this part:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Yume)</div>D: Give me an example please.[/b]
You said earlier that you believe what you read in Genesis because it 'seems to fit together'. Call me a liar, but it 'seems' to me that that's simply an opinion (which you have stated after codemning all opinions), not a fact of any sort.

Originally posted by syzygy@
bradybaker, there are many people who have directly experienced God, Allah, Ultimate Reality, Tao, Buddha-nature, whatever you want to call it in different cultures and different times and have explained the same experience. The Indian philosophers, the Christian mystics, the enlightened Zen masters, Islamic Sufis, Buddhas, shamans, many more. If you are interested, check out any of the following people: Mesiter Eckhart, D.T. Suzuki, Suhrawardi, Emmanuel Swedenborg, Gautama Buddha, Jesus Christ, William Law, Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu, Zoroaster, Jalal-uddin Rumi, Philo, Huang-Po, Plotinus, the list could go on.
Hearsay and ancient anecdotes are no substitution for logic and empirical evidence.

<!--QuoteBegin-Lucius
I guess its difficult for us theists to bring up truly 'logical' arguments
Agreed. I would change the word \"difficult\" to \"impossible\" though. And therein lies the problem.

Originally posted by Lucius
And also, Brady. Just wondering, but you think love and compassion are a chemical then? Im not talking about love for your family friends and lovers. But for complete strangers, the people who hate you/bash you and so on and so forth. And why does this extreme 'compassion' lack with some people? Chemical imbalance perhaps? (with them or the people that do feel it?)
Well I would'nt exactly describe it as a 'chemical', but more of an evolved behaviour. I'll try and explain..

Eons ago, in the transition between single celled and multi-celled organisms, a species of single-celled organism (choanoflagellates) emerged that were able to work together to maximize their chances of survival. They basically floated around in clumps in the water and this gave them several advantages over other organisms. They were now immune to the other larger single-celled organisms that fed on them because of their larger, collective size and they could catch and devour larger prey much more easily. This meant more food for everyone on a more consistent basis. Therefore, the genes that controlled such behaviour were more likely to be passed on to the next generation. These cooperative single-celled celled organisms eventually evolved into the first multi-celled animal. The sea-sponge. (Yes, your great, great, great, great, great......., great, great grandfather was a sea sponge) The genetic code for 'cooperation' was passed on for countless generations (some species would show more cooperative tendencies than others of course).

So, when the first homo sapien was born, it already had millions of years of natural selection contained in its genetic code and was predisposed to cooperation. It's not hard to see how such a behavioral instinct could evolve (this evolution would be driven largely by cultural pressures) into the complex behaviours seen today as love, compassion, friendliness and the like.

I hope that makes a little sense...

As for why some people lack compassion and hate others could be explained through chemical imbalance, but it is more likely that you fail to understand the complexity of the social and physical dynamics that the average human experiences. Human behaviour is not only influenced by the genetics that guide one to be "loving", but also by the genetics that guide one to be afraid, to succeed (in any sense of the word), to pass on their genetic material, etc. Also, relevant past experiences and social upbringing have an obviously large impact on behaviour.

I think that the problem lies in the fact that people love simple solutions. If the answer can't be explained to them in a few sentences, they just tune it out and stop listening (this is also probably an evolved behavior). It's obviously much easier to understand love if it is a "spiritual force" or "divine gift" rather than looking at it as the complex intersection of genetics, experience and survival instinct.

syzygy

03-25-2005, 06:29 PM

Originally posted by bradybaker
Hearsay and ancient anecdotes are no substitution for logic and empirical evidence.
Well, it is hard to hit a target when you have no idea what it looks like.

Yume

03-25-2005, 11:20 PM

I specifically stated that because of what was said in Genesis about the creation of the earth that I see it more likely. The reasons are in the bible. God created water and etc. Give me a good non-religious example of how the earth was created and give reasons to back it up. That is what Genesis does. It gives reasons that make sense how the earth was made unlike scientific explanations. I have reason behind my opinion.

Kaniaz

03-26-2005, 04:37 AM

I've said this before, but Extended Discussion, Philosphy and Beyond Dreaming remind me of a sort of hungry wolves' den. You go in to state your opinon and you're about to leave, but then they jump on you and devour you and you see holes in your logic so you run away and never come back because you don't want to look stupid again.

nightowl

03-26-2005, 08:32 PM

Originally posted by Kaniaz+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kaniaz)</div>I've said this before, but Extended Discussion, Philosphy and Beyond Dreaming remind me of a sort of hungry wolves' den. You go in to state your opinon and you're about to leave, but then they jump on you and devour you and you see holes in your logic so you run away and never come back because you don't want to look stupid again.[/b]

<!--QuoteBegin-bradybaker
Please, I'm begging you. Help me get started down the right path. Enlighten me with one fact supporting the existence of some Supreme Being.

lol :lol: ah....some good laughs....

Lucky27

03-27-2005, 12:27 AM

Originally posted by nightowl

I used to care, seriously. But the moment that it \"clicked\" with me that there's no afterlife (in my opinion), I stopped caring about living my life with respect to something I don't even believe in.
I at first worried about it to when i was younger. It sorta bothered me that every action i did was to be judged upon my death. I dunno how, but i grew questionative and i came to the conclusion that people made up the idea of heaven just so that they can feel comfort that there is something after death and possibly feel more important. I just don't care anymore. Like what you said. \"I find so much more satisfaction and contentment now in just believing in myself. And believing that being kind to all living things in general attracts more kindness. I need nothing more.\" I feel much more complete when i help someone or be kind to a person than going to church on a sunday morning and listening to my priest about damnation and salvation. I just didn't like it how I HAD to worship, pray, go to church, and listen to a thousand year old book...and for what? For a guy whose existence can't be proven and sends everyone to hell who doesn't believe in him regardless that everyone is his child? Self-reliance and confidence is pretty much all i need to be satisfied with myself and how i live my life.

That's how it was for me too. I believed in God until I was about 14 or 15 and then asked myself, why? And I realized that it was only because it was what I had been told to believe and what made me feel good. It took me a while to actually admit that I didn't believe in God because it was a bit frightening at first (especially when you live in a 95% Catholic town). But now I think that I'm much more happy in life than I ever could've been before. [/b]
Same. Im 16, going onto 17 and at about that age i started really questioning everything. I, like you, haven been told what to believe without anyone asking me what I believe. My parents pushed their beliefs on me and still do. They don't know that i dont believe in god and if they found out, who knows what drastic measures they would inflict on me. Its obvious they don't like or accept any other religion to. I suppose I am happier now :)
[/b]

I think I stopped believing when I was 14, thx to biology. My parents don't know that I don't believe, and i'm still forced to go to church every week, not without complaining of course :P

EDIT: Sorry, I think i'm like two pages too late :lol:

Oath

03-27-2005, 04:28 AM

im a former atheist and there is no way in hell that the god of israel does not exist. all of the atheist out there are either searching or subconciencly dont want to be in heaven. but i tell you this now that non-existence is not available. and dont you think that living even if its the worst life on earth is better than no life at all? this is how loving god is. he provides a place even for the ones that dont want to be with him.

nightowl

03-27-2005, 09:43 AM

all of the atheist out there are either searching or subconciencly dont want to be in heaven[/b]
i don't want to sound like an ass, but don't generalize unless you've met every atheist :|

and dont you think that living even if its the worst life on earth is better than no life at all?[/b]
who said here that death is better than life? Im pretty sure no one did unless you're just throwing that in the air...or are you making another point?

bradybaker

03-27-2005, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by syzygy+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(syzygy)</div>Well, it is hard to hit a target when you have no idea what it looks like.[/b]
Agreed. But that doesn't mean you should stop trying.

Originally posted by Yume@
I specifically stated that because of what was said in Genesis about the creation of the earth that I see it more likely. The reasons are in the bible. God created water and etc. Give me a good non-religious example of how the earth was created and give reasons to back it up. That is what Genesis does. It gives reasons that make sense how the earth was made unlike scientific explanations. I have reason behind my opinion.
If that's the best response you can come up with, I think this agrument is over.

<!--QuoteBegin-wizard
all of the atheist out there are either searching or subconciencly dont want to be in heaven.
All of the theists out there are subconsciously scared shitless of their own death and need ancient fairy tales to comfort them.

Kaniaz

03-27-2005, 12:31 PM

brady, you rule.

OpheliaBlue

03-27-2005, 02:38 PM

Amen.

nightowl

03-27-2005, 02:44 PM

Originally posted by Kaniaz+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kaniaz)</div>brady, you rule.[/b]

<!--QuoteBegin-OpheliaBlue
Amen.

Syntex

03-27-2005, 05:41 PM

Geez? Reading all those pages has made me barf. Damn I wish we all just knew the truth of things. I personally want to debate this: How can anyone say that atheism is logically the correct choice? It is a belief as well, is it not (help me out if I'm wrong.) But wasn't it defined earlier as: one who believes that there is no deity. If atheists are believing in something, then how is that logical? Can you prove to me that the world was created by physical means?> (no you have theories, based on empirical evidence <thats evidence based on experience and observation>)

As far as I'm concerned, Logically, we should all be agnostics: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and prob. unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god.

Simply because all we're debating here is opinions, theories, and unknowns.

Can't we just simply say, " I DON'T KNOW! " we can be sure of that. Fact: None of us can prove or logically state any of these beliefs as true in any one religion or perspective and until that somehow happens or doesn't happen, we should logically see that we don't know anything (in how we exist)... it's all just a belief, which is illogical to assume is correct no matter what.

And thats not 'in my opinion' its logical... is it not? Please correct me if i'm wrong, thats what debatings for, to see flaws in our thought process.

I'm personally Agnostic, believing in things and saying their absolutely true, to me is... illogical.

-Daniel

P.S. Brady, I like the way you think, Amen. :lol:

Joseph_Stalin

03-27-2005, 07:49 PM

Originally posted by OpheliaBlue
Amen.

How very ironic :D

wasup

03-27-2005, 08:35 PM

Originally posted by Joseph_Stalin+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Joseph_Stalin)</div><!--QuoteBegin-OpheliaBlue
Amen.

How very ironic :D[/b]
Hah!

dream-scape

03-27-2005, 09:06 PM

Originally posted by bradybakererererererer+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bradybakererererererer)</div>Theists - cannot come up with one logical argument to support their beliefs. All they can do is attempt to poke holes in the atheist's theory by saying things like:
Originally posted by dream-scaper@
I don't care what you believe. Whatever it is, it is your religion.
<!--QuoteBegin-dream-scaper
I can't make any kind of real decision if she is or isn't until I experience and find out for myself.[/b]

bradybakererererererer, I don't recall every claiming to be a theist. Actually I don't recall ever claiming to be anything. Nor do I recall ever attempting to poke holes in anything. But perhaps those memories have escaped me. If you have taken them, I shall like them back, your supreme erererererererer :) (I heard you may have sold them to CTerererererer, in which case, I'm still going to need them back)

Yume

03-28-2005, 01:05 AM

Originally posted by bradybaker+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bradybaker)</div>Originally posted by syzygy+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(syzygy)Well, it is hard to hit a target when you have no idea what it looks like.[/b]
Agreed. But that doesn't mean you should stop trying.

<!--QuoteBegin-Yume@
I specifically stated that because of what was said in Genesis about the creation of the earth that I see it more likely. The reasons are in the bible. God created water and etc. Give me a good non-religious example of how the earth was created and give reasons to back it up. That is what Genesis does. It gives reasons that make sense how the earth was made unlike scientific explanations. I have reason behind my opinion.
If that's the best response you can come up with, I think this agrument is over.

<!--QuoteBegin-wizard
all of the atheist out there are either searching or subconciencly dont want to be in heaven.
All of the theists out there are subconsciously scared shitless of their own death and need ancient fairy tales to comfort them.[/b][/quote]Since you have provided no proven examples of your own it is over. You have only said I think I am right and you aren't. That is sad.

syzygy

03-28-2005, 05:01 AM

Originally posted by bradybaker+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bradybaker)</div><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bradybaker)</div><!--QuoteBegin-wizard
all of the atheist out there are either searching or subconciencly dont want to be in heaven.
All of the theists out there are subconsciously scared shitless of their own death and need ancient fairy tales to comfort them.[/b]
If there is no death, how can you be scared of it? But the point is that the "ancient fairy tales" are not so ancient, but happening right now.

bradybaker

03-28-2005, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by dream-scapey+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dream-scapey)</div>bradybakererererererer, I don't recall every claiming to be a theist. Actually I don't recall ever claiming to be anything. Nor do I recall ever attempting to poke holes in anything. But perhaps those memories have escaped me. If you have taken them, I shall like them back, your supreme erererererererer Smile (I heard you may have sold them to CTerererererer, in which case, I'm still going to need them back)[/b]
Regardless of whether or not you're a theist, the statements you made are consistent with ones that theists come up with in debates with atheists.

Oh, and I did steal your memories, but I didn't sell them yet. I think I'll put em up on ebay soon.

<!--QuoteBegin-Yume
Since you have provided no proven examples of your own it is over. You have only said I think I am right and you aren't. That is sad.
YOU'VE CHOSEN TO BELIEVE IN SOMETHING THAT IS UNFALSIFIABLE AND NOW DEMAND FACTS TO CHANGE THAT BELIEF. YOU ARE NUTS.

You have to understand that no matter what point that an atheist can bring to the table, the determined theist can just say \"God did it.\" without any evidence, logic, or experience to back up that claim. And that's why the whole notion of a Supreme Being is so utterly stupid.
At least most other theists acknowledge that point and just call it 'faith'.

Other examples of unfalsifiable arguments: green homunculi, unicorns and sasquatches, giant pink invisible bunnies, flying polkadot zebras that only exist when no one is looking, etc.

Originally posted by syzygy
If there is no death, how can you be scared of it? But the point is that the \"ancient fairy tales\" are not so ancient, but happening right now.
It's called denial, the easiest way to deal with something stressful is to deny its existence all together. We have evolved to hold spiritual beliefs to deal with the thought of our own death (check out a book called \"The God Part of the Brain\"). The fairy tales, ancient or current (inluding the list of people you mentioned), are a result of this denial and evolution.

Originally posted by Syntex
Geez? Reading all those pages has made me barf. Damn I wish we all just knew the truth of things. I personally want to debate this: How can anyone say that atheism is logically the correct choice? It is a belief as well, is it not (help me out if I'm wrong.) But wasn't it defined earlier as: one who believes that there is no deity. If atheists are believing in something, then how is that logical? Can you prove to me that the world was created by physical means?> (no you have theories, based on empirical evidence <thats evidence based on experience and observation>)

As far as I'm concerned, Logically, we should all be agnostics: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and prob. unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god.

Simply because all we're debating here is opinions, theories, and unknowns.

Can't we just simply say, \" I DON'T KNOW! \" we can be sure of that. Fact: None of us can prove or logically state any of these beliefs as true in any one religion or perspective and until that somehow happens or doesn't happen, we should logically see that we don't know anything (in how we exist)... it's all just a belief, which is illogical to assume is correct no matter what.

And thats not 'in my opinion' its logical... is it not? Please correct me if i'm wrong, thats what debatings for, to see flaws in our thought process.

I'm personally Agnostic, believing in things and saying their absolutely true, to me is... illogical.

-Daniel

P.S. Brady, I like the way you think, Amen.

I thoroughly acknowledge the possibility that God could exist and that I could end up burning in hell for all eternity. I also acknowledge the possibility that unicorns, sasquatches, invisible pink bunnies and green homunculi exist. The tooth fairy and easter bunny? Sure, why not?

But come on, there are countless unfalsifiable arguments that could possibly explain how the universe was created and humanity has settled on the ones that:
a) provide us the greatest possible reward (eternal happiness)
B) can be used as tools to control the masses (extreme negative consequences for misbehaving)
c) can justify destructive behaviour (the Crusades, the Inquisitions, suicide bombings, human sacrifice)
d) let us skip out on our own death (afterlife/eternal soul)

It seems to me that its a game of probability. Sure it's possible for a giant magic guy in the sky to exist, but its infinitely more probable that he does not.

Questions (that I'm sure all theists will be able to come up with answers to):
Why did God create a ginormous universe just for us, and make it physically impossible to explore it?
Why does God favor humans over fish? or goats? or hydrogen? or Coke?
How can God be all-knowing and all-powerful at the same time? (think before you answer)
How can God be all-powerful and all-loving at the same time?

If God does exist, large parts of these fields of study would have to be partly or wholly incorrect: evolutionary biology, cosmology, physics, palaeontology, archaeology, historical geology, zoology, botany, and biogeography, plus much of early human history.

InTheMoment

03-28-2005, 02:23 PM

BradyBaker wrote:
But come on, there are countless unfalsifiable arguments that could possibly explain how the universe was created and humanity has settled on the ones that:
a) provide us the greatest possible reward (eternal happiness)
B) can be used as tools to control the masses (extreme negative consequences for misbehaving)
c) can justify destructive behaviour (the Crusades, the Inquisitions, suicide bombings, human sacrifice)
d) let us skip out on our own death (afterlife/eternal soul)

It seems to me that its a game of probability. Sure it's possible for a giant magic guy in the sky to exist, but its infinitely more probable that he does not. [/b]

Sorry to cut-in mid debate but the above statement is probably the best point made so far on this thread. I don't like to interject in debates unless I have something productive to add, but so far BradyBaker has been arguing my opinion on the matter quite well...kudos. :goodjob2:

Also, for all those reading along here is a link to a very thought provoking and informative religious debate site. http://www.debatingchristianity.com/forum/index.php

dream-scape

03-28-2005, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by bradybakery
Regardless of whether or not you're a theist, the statements you made are consistent with ones that theists come up with in debates with atheists.

That was the part of what you were saying that made no sense. How exactly are statements like \"whether god does or does not exist is irrelevant,\" \"you cannot know if god does or does not exist,\" and \"to say undeniably whether god does or does not exist is a fetter\" consistent with statements a theist would make? A theist would either say \"god does exist\" or \"god does not exist.\" (don't try to fool yourself that atheism is not a theism; it is still a form of theism). I have not said any theist statements anywhere. The statements I have made do not concern themselves with theism of any kind. If they were to be categorized as anything, it would be in the realm of agnostic.

Originally posted by bradybakery
Oh, and I did steal your memories, but I didn't sell them yet. I think I'll put em up on ebay soon.

Let me know how much you get mr. bakery. I've got a few I'm not currently using and could use some extra cash :mrgreen:

Oath

03-28-2005, 04:10 PM

when i read biographies of great people (albert einstein, every single one of the presidents, hell just about every great-rightious-person) they all claim some religion involving god. now correct me if im wrong but are all of you calling these great men idiots?

bradybaker

03-28-2005, 04:55 PM

Originally posted by dream-scapegoat
That was the part of what you were saying that made no sense. How exactly are statements like \"whether god does or does not exist is irrelevant,\" \"you cannot know if god does or does not exist,\" and \"to say undeniably whether god does or does not exist is a fetter\" consistent with statements a theist would make? A theist would either say \"god does exist\" or \"god does not exist.\" (don't try to fool yourself that atheism is not a theism; it is still a form of theism). I have not said any theist statements anywhere. The statements I have made do not concern themselves with theism of any kind. If they were to be categorized as anything, it would be in the realm of agnostic.

It's been my experience that theists often use the 'agnostic' argument to poke holes in the theory of the atheist, that's all I was saying. As for calling atheism a form of theism, I'm not going to play word games with you.

Originally posted by wizard
are all of you calling these great men idiots?
No.

Yume

03-28-2005, 06:01 PM

Originally posted by bradybaker
YOU'VE CHOSEN TO BELIEVE IN SOMETHING THAT IS UNFALSIFIABLE AND NOW DEMAND FACTS TO CHANGE THAT BELIEF. YOU ARE NUTS.

You have to understand that no matter what point that an atheist can bring to the table, the determined theist can just say \"God did it.\" without any evidence, logic, or experience to back up that claim. And that's why the whole notion of a Supreme Being is so utterly stupid.
At least most other theists acknowledge that point and just call it 'faith'.

Other examples of unfalsifiable arguments: green homunculi, unicorns and sasquatches, giant pink invisible bunnies, flying polkadot zebras that only exist when no one is looking, etc. I am saying that I have provided evidence behind my belief and you provide nothing. To say that theists have no evidence is just ridiculous. You have given no evidence to disprove that God did not create the earth whereas I have given the evidence of the book of Genesis. Thus I win which makes me 1 you 0.

Technically yes we can say God did it. It is because there is a chance that an all supreme being could have done what the topic was on. The fact that I acknowledge that this is possible and the fact that it could be wrong makes me more open-minded than you. It is because you have not proven with evidence that could make you right in the fact that green homunculi, unicorns, sasquatches, giant pink invisible bunnies, flying polkadot zebras that only exist when no one is looking makes me not believe this. If you could provide evidence that you supposidly claim to have then maybe we could start debating something.

dream-scape

03-28-2005, 07:16 PM

Originally posted by bradybakingacake
I'm not going to play word games with you.

haha... :mrgreen: ... that is rather funny considering all you do is play word games around here.

bradybaker

03-28-2005, 08:08 PM

Yume, I hate to break it to you. But the Bible isn't proof of anything. It's just a story that was written a really long time ago.

Sometime over the next few days, I'll write up a blurb outlining some scientific explanations of how the universe came to be. I sure hope that they are at least as reasonable as "some magic dude snapped his fingers".

Originally posted by Yume+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Yume)</div>The fact that I acknowledge that this is possible and the fact that it could be wrong makes me more open-minded than you.[/b]
I have stated that I do acknowledge it to be possible, just infinitely improbable. And just for the record, you not only 'acknowledge that it's possible', you 'believe it to be true'.

Originally posted by Yume@
It is because you have not proven with evidence that could make you right in the fact that green homunculi, unicorns, sasquatches, giant pink invisible bunnies, flying polkadot zebras that only exist when no one is looking makes me not believe this.
If I wrote a book on them would you believe it then?

<!--QuoteBegin-dreee-e-EEm-scape
that is rather funny considering all you do is play word games around here.
Ok?

syzygy

03-28-2005, 09:19 PM

Originally posted by bradybaker+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bradybaker)</div><!--QuoteBegin-syzygy
If there is no death, how can you be scared of it? But the point is that the \"ancient fairy tales\" are not so ancient, but happening right now.
It's called denial, the easiest way to deal with something stressful is to deny its existence all together. We have evolved to hold spiritual beliefs to deal with the thought of our own death (check out a book called \"The God Part of the Brain\"). The fairy tales, ancient or current (inluding the list of people you mentioned), are a result of this denial and evolution.[/b]
If you believe death is the end, then you are in denial of your essence. Do not mistake what I am saying, I do not believe in an afterlife or an eternal soul that is reincarnated. When I say there is no death, I am not talking about your personal self, for that is an illusion as well. When you look carefully at yourself, you cannot find your essence. There is no personal self, there is only fleeting sensations that are tied together loosely by memory. Where is the constant I? It is no where to be found, science hasn't got a clue as to where consciousness exists or how it got there. Death is the one area science can have no objective evidence of.

I have not read \"The God Part of the Brain\", but from reading the idea behind it, it does not sound like scientific evidence, but uses science to promote an opinion. Finding out that there is a God part of the brain is not evidence for or against God.

It is foolish to think that science is truth. Science is a never-ending discovery, constantly redefining itself. It creates an illusion of a single established worldview.

Originally posted by bradybaker
If God does exist, large parts of these fields of study would have to be partly or wholly incorrect: evolutionary biology, cosmology, physics, palaeontology, archaeology, historical geology, zoology, botany, and biogeography, plus much of early human history.
First, it is hilarious to even talk about God's existance or non-existance, two things God is neither. Second, why do people think it has to be religion OR science? Both offer something the other cannot, they are equal in their own respect.

No one has answered my original question yet. Atheism depends on monotheism to exist, so why define yourself by others beliefs? It is pointless to call yourself an atheist because you are not saying anything other than "I don't believe what that guy believes." This does not get you anywhere. Atheism could have never existed in a polytheistic society, if you don't believe in god A, you believe in god B. Christianty started the quest for ultimate truth, and atheism is just another form of it. Positive and negative poles are just extremes of the same thing.

To explain your position by the dictionary definition "a disbelief in the existence of deity" does not explain anything. Maybe the better question is: what is the God that you negate?

Yume

03-28-2005, 10:38 PM

Originally posted by bradybaker
Yume, I hate to break it to you. But the Bible isn't proof of anything. It's just a story that was written a really long time ago.

That is mistake one. The Torah in my religion was written by God and given to Moses on Mt. Sinai. It was so that people could gain morals from the stories. They could relate the stories to their everyday lives. It also setup laws like in Leviticus when it says that a man should not lay with a man like he lays with a woman. That was a law written by God that God wanted us to follow. To think it is just a storybook is ridiculous. Until you have read and studied it do not think that you know what it is. It is not just a story. You need to rethink that comment.

Sometime over the next few days, I'll write up a blurb outlining some scientific explanations of how the universe came to be. I sure hope that they are at least as reasonable as \"some magic dude snapped his fingers\".[/b]

If it can seem more logical than God creating the earth I will accept it, but you have to have reasons proving your theory. It cannot just be something happened and the world was created. If you prove how it could be done scientifically and is more logical than my thinking that God created the Earth I will consider it true.

I have stated that I do acknowledge it to be possible, just infinitely improbable. And just for the record, you not only 'acknowledge that it's possible', you 'believe it to be true'.[/b]

I believe my religion to be most likely out of all possibilities. I am not saying it couldn't be wrong, but it is the most likely. If you can find a way to also disprove me on my thinking and a way that is more likely that my existance came to be and how the earth was made I will accept your idea, but once again it cannot be a half-assed comment that you come up with on the top of your head. You need to research and give proof to your theory. My religion has given me proof whereas you have just come in and said I think you are wrong. I am going to stick to my religion because it has given me logical answers that make sense unlike yourself. You should define to yourself infinitely improbable. You need to calculate what could be possible and improbable in your mind instead of just pointing to something and saying \"wrong\".

If I wrote a book on them would you believe it then?[/b]

If it was a book with logical information yes I would.

I have never said you were wrong. I have only said that I think by logic you are the most incorrect.

Syntex

03-29-2005, 01:59 AM

Originally posted by bradybaker+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bradybaker)</div>

<!--QuoteBegin-Syntex
Geez? Reading all those pages has made me barf. Damn I wish we all just knew the truth of things. I personally want to debate this: How can anyone say that atheism is logically the correct choice? It is a belief as well, is it not (help me out if I'm wrong.) But wasn't it defined earlier as: one who believes that there is no deity. If atheists are believing in something, then how is that logical? Can you prove to me that the world was created by physical means?> (no you have theories, based on empirical evidence <thats evidence based on experience and observation>)

As far as I'm concerned, Logically, we should all be agnostics: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and prob. unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god.

Simply because all we're debating here is opinions, theories, and unknowns.

Can't we just simply say, \" I DON'T KNOW! \" we can be sure of that. Fact: None of us can prove or logically state any of these beliefs as true in any one religion or perspective and until that somehow happens or doesn't happen, we should logically see that we don't know anything (in how we exist)... it's all just a belief, which is illogical to assume is correct no matter what.

And thats not 'in my opinion' its logical... is it not? Please correct me if i'm wrong, thats what debatings for, to see flaws in our thought process.

I'm personally Agnostic, believing in things and saying their absolutely true, to me is... illogical.

-Daniel

P.S. Brady, I like the way you think, Amen.

I thoroughly acknowledge the possibility that God could exist and that I could end up burning in hell for all eternity. I also acknowledge the possibility that unicorns, sasquatches, invisible pink bunnies and green homunculi exist. The tooth fairy and easter bunny? Sure, why not?

But come on, there are countless unfalsifiable arguments that could possibly explain how the universe was created and humanity has settled on the ones that:
a) provide us the greatest possible reward (eternal happiness)
B) can be used as tools to control the masses (extreme negative consequences for misbehaving)
c) can justify destructive behaviour (the Crusades, the Inquisitions, suicide bombings, human sacrifice)
d) let us skip out on our own death (afterlife/eternal soul)

It seems to me that its a game of probability. Sure it's possible for a giant magic guy in the sky to exist, but its infinitely more probable that he does not.

Questions (that I'm sure all theists will be able to come up with answers to):
Why did God create a ginormous universe just for us, and make it physically impossible to explore it?
Why does God favor humans over fish? or goats? or hydrogen? or Coke?
How can God be all-knowing and all-powerful at the same time? (think before you answer)
How can God be all-powerful and all-loving at the same time?

If God does exist, large parts of these fields of study would have to be partly or wholly incorrect: evolutionary biology, cosmology, physics, palaeontology, archaeology, historical geology, zoology, botany, and biogeography, plus much of early human history.[/b]

Agreed, I also think that God is highly improbable... But answer me this: A atheist is defined as someone who BELIEVES there is no God. Are you really an athiest if you acknoledge it is possible for there to be a God? It seems to me your an agnostic, who has simply weighed the theories of existance, and chosen one to be more likely. Isn't that different then believing whole hardily that there is no God, Period.?

People are really pusing hard on this because by saying your an Atheist, it's agitating them to say that, HEY GOD could exist, IT's Possible... but you've acknowledged this.... I think you need a new title that all, or define what you believe more accurately than the word atheist.

Otherwise, I'm in full agreement :)

-Daniel

P.S. as for you theists, the only problem I have with some of you is that some of you say: God exists and it's impossible for him not too (acting on Faith, saying something is true, without absolute proof of it) Otherwise, it's perfectly fine to believe in God i think, Basicaly because society has a big problem with Ignorance, based on what you know (the information you have in your mind, God probably is the most logical answer) SO basically the only people who can really argue something is those who have knowledge in all the religions and all the scientific research. Otherwise ignorance is going to screw your "weighing of God Over science" up.

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