Had we evolved??

[Howie]

Most of us live in a culture that is not ready to even except the concept of Lucid Dreaming, much less explore it.
We are rapidly advancing in technology. Most cultures. The world powers spend money hand over fist on advancement. And that we have. Nanotechnology, space exploration, theories in physics and the list could go on & on. The technology age.

But my point to ponder is this.
What if we had put the same amount of time, effort, and schooling into the realm of the other areas of the brain. A more psychology based environment. The subconscious.
What would we have gained?
Telekanesis = The movement of objects by scientifically inexplicable means, as by the exercise of an occult power. :P
Lucid dreaming = aslo labled as an occult at times
ESP Extra sensory perception
Astral projection/remote ditant viewing
OBE's Out of body experiences

So had things been switched around, would the world view something we label now as an advancement a taboo topic? Much like lucid dreaming is today?

[InTheMoment]

Howetzer wrote:But my point to ponder is this.
What if we had put the same amount of time, effort, and schooling into the realm of the other areas of the brain. A more psychology based environment. The subconscious. [/b]

I think that the lack of practicality (as applied to military and/or economics) greatly reduces government funding for such research.

What would we have gained?
Telekanesis = The movement of objects by scientifically inexplicable means, as by the exercise of an occult power.
Lucid dreaming = aslo labled as an occult at times
ESP Extra sensory perception
Astral projection/remote ditant viewing
OBE's Out of body experiences [/b]

There's no telling what abilities we would uncover considering the vast amount of unused brain matter that we posses...I wouldn't rule out any of those options.

[Identity X]

I don't really see what you are getting at here, but I'll attempt to reply anyway. So bear with me.

As in terms of the brain evolving, we have already reached the pinnacle in development - if the brain is any smaller, we are, obviously, less intelligent; if it evolves to become bigger, communication between different areas of the brain will slow down and the effect would be lower intelligence, so, either way, we are better off as we are now.

In terms of ESP, telepathy etc., the very technology that you have mentioned in the first paragraph is beginning to help us out there; researchers are already starting to integrate computers with the nervous system, devices which transmit the state of your nervous system to a remote computer - possibly inbuilt into another persons nervous system? Telepathy is soon becoming a distinct reality.

[Howie]

Originally posted by Identity X
I don't really see what you are getting at here, but I'll attempt to reply anyway. So bear with me.
As in terms of the brain evolving, we have already reached the pinnacle in development - if the brain is any smaller, we are, obviously, less intelligent; if it evolves to become bigger, communication between different areas of the brain will slow down and the effect would be lower intelligence, so, either way, we are better off as we are now.

In terms of ESP, telepathy etc., the very technology that you have mentioned in the first paragraph is beginning to help us out there; researchers are already starting to integrate computers with the nervous system, devices which transmit the state of your nervous system to a remote computer - possibly inbuilt into another persons nervous system? Telepathy is soon becoming a distinct reality.

"As in terms of the brain evolving, we have already reached the pinnacle in development "
That is a ludicrous statement!
I don't even know where to begin picking that apart.

And the technology a nervous system has nothing to do with the areas I am talikng about. That is envoking cognitive skills. which is going down the path that i am procaliming it to.
as you said, "Telepathy is soon becoming a distinct reality." that is my point. where would we be if it had gone the other way?

[bradybaker]

Originally posted by InTheMoment
considering the vast amount of unused brain matter that we posses
Incorrect.

[Joseph_Stalin]

Damn that myth!

I swear, it's like every hypnosis-con artist uses that (not to go against real hypnotists, mind you) to sell a product. It is not true...

Also, funding for such projects that concern pseudosciences is close to nothing. You'd have to start getting Mr. Gates into Lucid Dreaming and the like, for any progress.

[Howie]

Originally posted by Joseph_Stalin+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Joseph_Stalin)</div>Also, funding for such projects that concern pseudosciences is close to nothing. You'd have to start getting Mr. Gates into Lucid Dreaming and the like, for any progress.
[/b]

<!--QuoteBegin-InTheMoment
I think that the lack of practicality (as applied to military and/or economics) greatly reduces government funding for such research.


Maybe I worded this wrong. I am well aware of the reasons that it has become this way. My post was to try an envoke a conversation of what could be. and where are development could be at this point had it been given the same attention.

And bradybaker! Come on. I know you have more in you than that. ;)

[Joseph_Stalin]

You can't really say where we would be. I suppose we'd either be floating around seeing who's the greatest genius, or just having a regular discussion as we are now.

[Identity X]

I don't really get what you mean by "the other way". I dont really see any coherentness (a word?) in this argument at all. Sorry.

[Kaniaz]

Originally posted by Identity X
I don't really get what you mean by \"the other way\". I dont really see any coherentness (a word?) in this argument at all. Sorry.

Coherence.

[Howie]

Originally posted by Kaniaz+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kaniaz)</div><!--QuoteBegin-Identity X
I don't really get what you mean by \"the other way\". I dont really see any coherentness (a word?) in this argument at all. Sorry.
Coherence.[/b]

I just did not see the correlation with integrating the nervous system with computors with the subject at hand. That is all. :)

Your system of developement to me is going "the other way" as opopsed to deveoping the uncharted areas of the brain that we don't explore or put much emphasize on doing either.

[bradybaker]

ESP, TK, OBE....are very interesting concepts. Who wouldn't want to be able to perform some of the same feats as their favorite comic book characters? Unfortunately, here in reality, claims by people who apparently possess these powers are completely and utterly baseless. This is not because they have not been studied, they have been studied, at great length and cost. However, zero (zilch, nada) positive observations of these phenomena have ever been seen in a controlled setting.

Unfortunately, an astounding number of people still have faith that these powers are real. Why?

Here's why:

1) Biased reporting - positive experience are always reported (ie. some guy says that he dreamt that JFK was going to be assasinated, JFK gets assasinated, everyone says 'Hey, ESP must be real!'), negatives are ignored (ie. the fact that some didn't dream that JFK was going to be assasinated will never make the news). This is also known as "confirmation bias", people tend to remember positive hits and ignore negative hits to support their favorite beliefs.

2) Will to believe - there is of course the effect of wishful thinking. People, in general, desire predictability and control over their surroundings to comfort them (ie. OBEs tend to suggest the presence of a soul and therefore support the idea of an afterlife, easing our greatest fear, death). Therefore they are much more willing to believe in such phenomena in hopes of of attaining just that much more control over their situation.

3) Everyday experience - Everyday, people observe what they believe to be strange or even impossible coincidences. However, all of these 'coincidence' are completely statistically explainable. Here's a good article to help articulate my point:

Miracle on Probability Street
The Law of Large Numbers guarantees that one-in-a-million miracles happen 295 times a day in America
By Michael Shermer

Because I am often introduced as a "professional skeptic," people feel compelled to challenge me with stories about highly improbable events. The implication is that if I cannot offer a satisfactory natural explanation for that particular event, the general principle of supernaturalism is preserved. A common story is the one about having a dream or thought about the death of a friend or relative and then receiving a phone call five minutes later about the unexpected death of that very person.
I cannot always explain such specific incidents, but a principle of probability called the Law of Large Numbers shows that an event with a low probability of occurrence in a small number of trials has a high probability of occurrence in a large number of trials. Events with million-to-one odds happen 295 times a day in America.

In their delightful book Debunked! (Johns Hopkins University Press, 2004), CERN physicist Georges Charpak and University of Nice physicist Henri Broch show how the application of probability theory to such events is enlightening. In the case of death premonitions, suppose that you know of 10 people a year who die and that you think about each of those people once a year. One year contains 105,120 five-minute intervals during which you might think about each of the 10 people, a probability of one out of 10,512--certainly an improbable event. Yet there are 295 million Americans. Assume, for the sake of our calculation, that they think like you. That makes 1/10,512 X 295,000,000 = 28,063 people a year, or 77 people a day for whom this improbable premonition becomes probable. With the well-known cognitive phenomenon of confirmation bias firmly in force (where we notice the hits and ignore the misses in support of our favorite beliefs), if just a couple of these people recount their miraculous tales in a public forum (next on Oprah!), the paranormal seems vindicated. In fact, they are merely demonstrating the laws of probability writ large.

[Howie]

You are a perfect example of the right brain progression to where it is today. Our society has eccepted that. And admires it. But it it will be that and nothing more.

[bradybaker]

Originally posted by Howetzer
You are a perfect example of the right brain progression to where it is today. Our society has eccepted that. And admires it. But it it will be that and nothing more.
Please elaborate.

[Howie]

Originally posted by bradybaker+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bradybaker)</div>Originally posted by Howetzer@
You are a perfect example of the right brain progression to where it is today. Our society has eccepted that. And admires it. But it it will be that and nothing more.
Please elaborate.[/b]

<!--QuoteBegin-bradybaker
ESP, TK, OBE....are very interesting concepts. Who wouldn't want to be able to perform some of the same feats as their favorite comic book characters? Unfortunately, here in reality, claims by people who apparently possess these powers are completely and utterly baseless. This is not because they have not been studied, they have been studied, at great length and cost. However, zero (zilch, nada) positive observations of these phenomena have ever been seen in a controlled setting.

I think such a linear approach to thinking is containment. And with it comes the limitations. And you may be giving our brain less credit than it could earn. With that process of thought, it will be that and nothing more.

[i][I would like to say that I read that article and scientific american

A concept much like a hypothesis is merley something that you can't pin down.
So a way to justify the unexplained;
Your second reason behind why people believe in these, \"powers.\"
2) Will to believe - there is of course the effect of wishful thinking. People, in general, desire predictability and control over their surroundings to comfort them (ie. OBEs tend to suggest the presence of a soul and therefore support the idea of an afterlife, easing our greatest fear, death). Therefore they are much more willing to believe in such phenomena in hopes of of attaining just that much more control over their situation. [/b]
This mereley a scientist trying in their own way to do something similar to their own point. They attach themselves to a belief system based opon facts. But isn't a fact no more than a theory at one point? And can't it not be turned just as quickly back into a revised theory with more facts?

The way our culture has evolved limits ourselves with outcomes. If a scientists dubs it fact that you can't astral project. You can't, or science tells them so, therefore he/she won't.
Much like the same way that our conscious is hammpered by it's own lableing process that tells it that it is not capable of.....well, anything.
With limits set the bar will never be raised!

Inconclusive results can be as opaque as muddy water. For not to have conclusive results only points to the reasoning that all possibilities have not been met.
The mind wants limits, it needs limits. Otherwise the entire realm of inconclusive out comes burdens our thought process in a manner it cannot handle.
Giving rise to why people give birth to relgion and an almighty power. Much in concert with a scientist attaching his or herself to fact based conclusive result.

[bradybaker]

Not once did I say that science has proven that you cannot astral project or move needles with your mind. I simply pointed out that no reliable observations of such phenomena have ever, ever, ever been observed. And it's not for lack of trying. The US government spent millions trying to utilize such skills during the cold war, with ZERO success.

There is the same amount of evidence for such paranomal phenomena as there is for unicorns and sasquatches. (Heck, even big foot has been caught on tape!)

Now you can call that a "linear containment mode of thought", or whatever you want, but if you believe in such things, do you believe that there is a '57 Chevy orbiting Jupiter right now? It's possible you know.

[Howie]

bradybaker,
You said this, "Unfortunately, an astounding number of people still have faith that these powers are real. Why?
Here's why:." And then went on to list your scientifically based conclusions to why. I may be misunderstanding. So I oppolgize if that is the case. But I did not want to get into that debate. However if I started it then.......!
But to go back to my origanal idea.

Originally posted by bradybaker
There is the same amount of evidence for such paranomal phenomena as there is for unicorns and sasquatches. (Heck, even big foot has been caught on tape!) *

This fuels my point! This is what spawned my question to begin with. If you look at what I had said/or asked.
I am saying----> where would we be? We cannot know based opon facts, because you cannot associate a couple of million dollars of research with a whole culture that has evolved astray from a culture of wich would evolve and molded into a society that revovles around a different aspect of our brains.
Me, speaking for our United states, our Gov. probably dumps more money in one year on the science of how children react to noise than five years combined on the study of the subconscious and it's undeveloped abilities. (thit is not fact, rather an over zealous assumtion*)
:cookiemonster: Look I see him, it's sasquatche

[Peregrinus]

Originally posted by Howetzer
But my point to ponder is this.
What if we had put the same amount of time, effort, and schooling into the realm of the other areas of the brain. A more psychology based environment. The subconscious.
What would we have gained?
Telekanesis = The movement of objects by scientifically inexplicable means, as by the exercise of an occult power. :P
Lucid dreaming = aslo labled as an occult at times
ESP Extra sensory perception
Astral projection/remote ditant viewing
OBE's Out of body experiences

So had things been switched around, would the world view something we label now as an advancement a taboo topic? Much like lucid dreaming is today?

That would depend entirely on whether or not such phenomena are physically possible :tongue: Your question seems basically to be: "Would we advance more in an area in which we focus our time, money, and effort?" The answer, of course, is "yes". That applies to just about everything. If you work at something, you will advance, all other variables remaining equal.

[Howie]

Originally posted by Peregrinus
That would depend entirely on whether or not such phenomena are physically possible *:tongue: * Your question seems basically to be: *\"Would we advance more in an area in which we focus our time, money, and effort?\" *The answer, of course, is \"yes\". *That applies to just about everything. *If you work at something, you will advance, all other variables remaining equal.

I know that the more time resources and effort put into something will help its advancment.

And instead of an answer, you can't answer that because we as humans did not follow that path.
Some of the greatest questions are ones that cannot be solve through an equation. Rather an abstract thought or an obscure viewpoint. A preposterous idea.

I know that the question is a bit capricious. But for just an instance can you physic buffs put some logical thinking and data aside and brianstorm on an idea of what might have been? Where we could be?
It could take as much thought as to come up with the logical reasoning for why or why we would be here nor there by factual puncuation.

[bradybaker]

I think we'd be right where we are now. Extensive study and research would reveal nothing, but some people would continue to 'believe' anyways.

[Peregrinus]

This is just a general observation, but it's relevant to this discussion of "psychic phenomena". We've all had weird shit happen to us in our lives for which we don't have an explanation, but just because you or I can't explain something doesn't mean that it can't be explained. Logic and science are just tools for understanding-- they don't "rule out" anything. One can think logically telekinesis, ESP, OBE's, etc. In fact, unless you're writing a fantasy novel, it's probably the most productive way to think about it.

[Howie]

I guess the last two posts answers my question.

I know that the question is a bit capricious. But for just an instance can you physic buffs put some logical thinking and data aside and brianstorm on an idea of what might have been? Where we could be?



Originally posted by bradybaker
I think we'd be right where we are now. Extensive study and research would reveal nothing, but some people would continue to 'believe' anyways.

We would not be right where we are now if we had not put the resouces, time and effort we had towards the modern technology we have today.

It is easy for you to lable, but hard for you to imagine isnt it?

[Peregrinus]

The use of western science does not imply that one lacks imagination. Besides, I already gave my official response: "If physically possible, then yes, probably." You don't even have to make a leap of imagination to see that-- just investigate a few non-western cultures. Here in the US, a good example is the Navaho. They have a firm belief (or at least the traditionalists do) in the existence of magic and witchcraft and witches, and according to my anthropology prof who's done the bulk of his research on that culture, speak as earnestly about death by a witch's curse as we would about a car crash. Before Europeans came through and really got their "conquer the world" bit cranked up, Native American peoples were perfectly happy and content without western science and technology. Their cultures and environment did not require it. They also did tend to place more emphasis on the mystical and the experiences of the mind, so Brady's comment about us being right where we are today regardless of the developmental history of our culture displays a certain amount of anthropocentrism. Just because something is possible (e.g. western technology) does not mean that it will be discovered or developed in the absence of cultural impetus.

[Joseph_Stalin]

There is actually a bit of funding to such things by the US government (and even the Soviet Union had established funding for this as well). The government is basically using their resources and "supposedly" are using people to see enemy encampments and base structures and the like. Whether this funding was produced because of interest or in retailiation to Soviet plans, is unknown. The government has obviously not said much about the programs. Now of course, just because the United States government has allocated a significant amount of money to this idea of telekenisis, does not automatically make it real or anything, but this is pretty interesting to know.

[Leo Volont]

Do we evolve.

As a People?

The good news is that History shows us that a People, once Civilized, appear to be more inclined to continue in Civilization than Primitive and Barbarian Peoples. The Bad News is that the Powers that Be in the World today are mostly Barbarian. First it was the English who were barely on the threshold of Civilization when the Norman Barbarians gained sway over them. Europe's Civilized Latin half has lost influence to the Barbarian Teutonics and Northmen who only recently stopped wearing horns on their headgear. And the Yanks today who endlessly chant for Freedom Freedom Freedom are actually advocating nothing more than a Chaos that they hope to take advantage of. As soon as they can find no benefits in other people's freedom, they call it terrorism and invade. It is Barbarian Anarchy that drives the World today.

But the Civilized Cultures still exercise some influence upon the minorities of intelligent people who would incline toward Civilization if given the choice. Within the World'd Higher Religions we have some truly Mystical and Spiritual Movements. Such Spirituality used to be protected by Esoteric Secrecy, but now it seems that our Barbarian Masters quite dismiss such things as silly and suppose everyone else must dismiss it too. So the doors to Spirituality are kept quite open for those who would wish to take advantage.

As for one's personal Evolution. If one comes from Barbarian stock... well, one must begin somewhere. The journey of a 1000 li begins with the first step. The Noble Family of a 100 Pure Generations must start with ... well, with whatever people are before they become noble and pure. The Barbarian Aryans were quite civilized by India, and no Nomad Race that ever invaded China did so without being Civilized by the experience. The Greeks were Civilized, somewhat, by their invasion of Persia. Latin Europe acquired the taste for Civilization in not so many generations (if only the Germans and the Anglo Saxans would ever begin to indulge). so, for the individual, it is never too late to begin.

The question might arise, how much progress can be made in one lifetime. No, I do not speak of Reincarnation but of ordinary biological reproduction. In studying the Saints of the various Higher Religions, it becomes evident that Holy individuals come from Holy Families for the most part. I simply can't recall a chicken stealing horsethief ever making much progress on the Spiritual Way... for such a one probably the most we can expect is that he stop stealing chickens and horses.

Yet there may be some hope in the Collective Subconsciousness. The Human Race is getting older and wiser and so the Energy of Civilization which has a greater Supernatural Power than anything Barbarism can offer may be empowering the Collective Subconsciousness. We may be able to be influenced by a Civilizing and Spiritualizing Influence from beyond ourselves, if once we open up to it.

[Merck]

So how are you determining this so called barbarism and civilization? It sounds to me like you are basing all of this on what YOU think and not on what is generally accepted among humans. Seeing as there aren't any guidelines for determining whether a society is barbaric or civilized, it seems you are simply making your own opinionated decision regarding the matter without any real use of fact or logic.

[InTheMoment]

Leo wrote:
The good news is that History shows us that a People, once Civilized, appear to be more inclined to continue in Civilization than Primitive and Barbarian Peoples.[/b]

I tend to disagree with that...Barbarians have done much (even in the past 25 years) to furthur the progress of civilization. For example, where would be today without such influential icons as:

http://img103.echo.cx/img103/5531/thundarra4op.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us) Thundarr the Barbarian

http://img103.echo.cx/img103/9161/caveyshout5hh.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us) Captain Caveman

http://img103.echo.cx/img103/1107/barbarians46oe.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us) The Barbarian Brothers

and lastly the greatest barbarian of them all....

http://img103.echo.cx/img103/86/conan3bk.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us) Conan the Barbarian

[Yume]

Some use inductive reasoning while others deductively use facts to make conclusions. The first time a stone may fall to the floor, but the next it may rise to the clouds. In reality you can only prove the past. You cannot say exactly what will happen in the future, but give the illusion based on experiences, societal based facts, and theories.

I think that if there is going to be a significant human evolution in the future it will mainly be mentally and the average I.Q. of a person will be about 130. People will start understanding things a lot more.

[Howie]

Originally posted by Yume
Some use inductive reasoning while others deductively use facts to make conclusions. The first time a stone may fall to the floor, but the next it may rise to the clouds. In reality you can only prove the past. You cannot say exactly what will happen in the future, but give the illusion based on experiences, societal based facts, and theories.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
I think that if there is going to be a significant human evolution in the future it will mainly be mentally and the average I.Q. of a person will be about 130. People will start understanding things a lot more.

I have little doubt we are mentally evolving. But we are falling farther away from instincts and sensory perceptions. Instead we evolvle towards a more advanced society of judicious knowlede.
And that is all you can do is speculate about two cultures evolving in two differant ways.

Nature tends to work that way naturally. With our culture our weekest is not thinned out. It is rather carried by the strong. So I don't believe our race will evovle as fast as natural order would allow.

I can't say that we would not be a better race of people if our thought process was based on some of the things I mentioned from the original post.
Would we have been to the moon? Maybe not.
Would we deplete our natural resources and have racial gaps as big as they are? Or would we do so many of the things that our race does for a so called sophisticated society?
I think the whole reason I began this post is the arrogance of our race and how we became this way. Are we really as refined, inclusive or worldly as we claim to be?
I think we are just more complex barbarians.

[tetragrammaton]

"If you're looking at the highlights of human development, you have to look at the evolution of the organism, and then add the development of the interaction with its environment. Evolution of the organism will begin with the evolution of life, proceeding through the hominid, coming to the evolution of mankind: neanderthal, cro-magnon man. Now, interestingly, what you're looking at here are three strains: biological, anthropological (development of cities, cultures), and cultural (which is human expression). Now, what you've seen here is the evolution of populations, not so much the evolution of individuals. And in addition, if you look at the time-scale that's involved here: two billion years for life, six million years
for the hominid, a hundred-thousand years for mankind as we know it, you're beginning to see the telescoping nature of the evolutionary paradigm. And then, when you get to agriculture, when you get to the scientific revolution and the industrial revolution, you're looking at ten thousand years, four hundred years, a hundred and fifty years. You're seeing a further telescoping of this evolutionary time. What that means is that as we go through the new evolution, it's going to telescope to the point that we should see it manifest itself within our lifetimes, within a generation. The new evolution stems from information, and it stems from two types of information: digital and analog. The digital is artificial intelligence; The analog results from molecular biology, the cloning of the organism, and you knit the two together with neurobiology. Before, under the old evolutionary paradigm, one would die and the other would grow and dominate. But, under the new paradigm, they would exist as a mutually supportive, non-competitive grouping independent from the external. Now what is interesting here is that evolution now becomes an individually-centered process eminating from the needs and desires of the individual, and not an external process, a passive process, where the individual is just at the whim of the collective.
So, you produce a neo-human with a new individuality, a new consciousness. But, that's only the beginning of the evolutionary cycle because as the next cycle proceeds, the input is now this new intelligence. As intelligence pods on intelligence, as abilty pods on ability, the speed changes. Until what? Until you reach a crescendo. In a way, it could be imagined as an almost instantaneous fulfillment of human, human and neo-human, potential. It could be something totally different. It could be the amplification of the individual...the multiplication of individual existences, parallel existences, now with the individual no longer restricted by time and space. And the manifestations of this neo-human type evolution could be dramatically counter-intuitive; That's the interesting part. The old evolution is cold, it's sterile, it's efficient. And, it's manifestations are those social adaptations. We're talking about parasitism, dominance, morality, war, predation. These will be subject to de-emphasis. These will be subject to de-evolution. The new evolutionary paradigm will give us the human traits of truth, of loyalty, of justice, of freedom. These will be the manifestations of the new evolution, and that is what we would hope to see from this, that would be nice."

[Howie]

There has been quite a few nice history lessons in this Topic.
Thanks for the reply tetragrammaton!
In short, are you saying that instead of nature taking it's natural coarse of development, we in ways are creating our own? And in as a result the process speeds up as well.
I know there is a lot more to what you have said, but that is generally what I began to picture as I read through your response.


I had a dream last night that we were all evloving (according to my aunt) to become indigitals :P .....Whatever that is.
I looked at all my messages and read tetragrammaton's response and did not have time to write back. So I think It was in my head as I went to sleep.

[dreamtamer007]

Not sure if this will be relevant to this topic but it’s the first thing that came to remembrance. In a book I read. I’ll have to paraphrase. ”As we learn and search our selves we form and have opinions. When we find our self then we know”. 8)

[Howie]

Originally posted by dreamtamer007
Not sure if this will be relevant to this topic but it’s the first thing that came to remembrance. In a book I read. I’ll have to paraphrase. ”As we learn and search our selves we form and have opinions. When we find our self then we know”. 8)

Relavance or not dreamtamer007, I like it. That says a lot in a short sentance.
:thumbup:
It made me stop and think about several points.
How do you truely find yourself? You would think you would have to observe yourself on a consistant basis yet it is difficult to truely observe yourself from an aspect of being outside, being the observer, or yourself. :P

[dreamtamer007]

I think it was an American Indian Mohawk Tribe that had some people called a Shaman (means one who dreams). Sorry I'm not sure if that was the tribe but in the book Conscious Dreaming by Robert Moss he travels and learns from many different people and the phrase got my attention. “Opinions until we find ourselves, then we know”. I feel that other cultures have experienced a closer relationship with their dreams and subconscious and we need to do some searching to catch up. You might find his book interesting.

[Howie]

dreamtamer007,
Concous Dreaming was one of the first books I got of off half.com. where you can by used books and Cds.A spiritual path for Everyday Life. It was a long time ago when I read it. So it is rather vague in my memory.
But you are right. We as a culture do have some cathing up to do.

That brings out a very good point. My Question, Had we evolved? There is my answer!!! Righton our own planet, just in other cultures.
It seems to me that I myself would like an integrated system of evolution between the two. A happy medium. :)

[dreamtamer007]

As far as technology I think we are evolving very fast. We don't even think twice about moving across land at 60+ miles per hour in a sitting position. Wouldn't that look funny if the vehicle was invisible? When you say as a people I think the tools we use are also a part of us. If being content is a form of perfection then I think that would be an advanced state of personal evolving. Most areas of technology are never satisfied or content with present ways of life and will always strive for a better life. I would say there is a part of us that can be complete but other areas in our life that thrive on change and better ways of being. I think we can be both complex and simple at the same time meaning that in some areas we have evolved and others no so. :)

[justme]

dude look at us humans. WERE PATHIC! We have no gills no wings no good feet we can run at like what? 10 mph? Were freeze without clothes and were get wipped out by some diese with out medicane. If anything has eveoled on humans its our minds.

[Placebo]

I dunno about you but I'm not 'PATHIC' ;)

We have developed to stand up and perform fine + complicated tasks with two limbs.
No other animal can outperform us on that

Our mind has also developed to the point where we can solve advanced problems in less than one generation (most of the time), and be able to communicate our knowledge and pass it on to new generations.
Other animals generally need to use genetic specialisation to solve life's problems, and this takes many generations.

On top of that, most of us have developed to be able to understand multiple views on a topic without necessarily agreeing to them all.
We can understand each other without agreeing with each other.
Other animals cannot do that.

You are judging our development based on our ability to survive. ie. we die easily.
Do you really think that humans are bad at survival? Do you live each day worried about being eaten by a predator?

[Howie]

That is just it Placebo. We don't have gills, wings etc. because the evolution of our mind has created an environment we have adapted to mentally. To look ahead, to forshadow, plan and comprehend. We do not have do rely on basic instincts.
It could be we do not rely on them enough though. We ashave become increasingly dependant on our minds creations to make life easier. As a result we do not have many of those instincts left to fall back on.

To begin with I was talking about our brains evolving in two differant different paths. Rather than the physical. But now that you mention it, if one were to evolve their sense like LDs, OBEs, Sixth senses and others, it could very well include the physical aspect into the mix.

[justme]

But think about it, think about all the ppl who make inventions and make medical and make an advancment in human life! Without them we are pathce, thats what makes us differnt from animals, all animals are differnt i know but they follow instict which whould be a good think i dont want no hitler bear running around.

[Howie]

Originally posted by justme
But think about it, think about all the ppl who make inventions and make medical and make an advancment in human life! Without them we are pathce, thats what makes us differnt from animals, all animals are differnt i know but they follow instict which whould be a good think i dont want no hitler bear running around.

What I am trying to portray is physcolgical evolution as compared to scientific evolution. In some ways they are obviously the same. But by reading the beginning post where might we be had we evolved in another manner than gene manipulation, internet, cell phones, etc. Or instead telechenisis, remote viewing, dream sharing and such. Even if you don't believe in those concepts, at least give it the time of day to think what or present day would hold had we advanced in that manner at the same pace has we have scientifically and technologically.

[Feeble Wizard]

I recommend the Foundation series by Isaac Asimov; they are my favorite books and are about this very subject :). The ***-** (j/k :lol:) novels are about a future technology-based society where a scientist has reduced human behavior to mathematical equations. In a large enough population (in the quadrillions) it turns out that humans are perfectly predictable (just like particles in statistical physics). This scientist forms a republic and gives the leaders a set of instructions to follow. In this way the scientist over the next thousand years conquers the Galaxy from the past by calculation.

However, it is discovered that there are people who have separated themselves out on a few planets and secretly developed a mental-based society like how Howetzer describes. They have developed telepathy, ESP, and even mind control. On one planet they have developed this so far that they had become a mass-mind and even used their minds to control vegetation, wind, volcanoes, etc (even the mantle of the planet had a slight bit of consciousness, although not nearly as much as a brain pound for pound). Their plan for the galaxy was to create a gigantic galactic consciousness that ingulfed everything.

At the very end of the series, a decision had to be made by one person which plan for the galaxy would be selected...

[Howie]

The Foundation series by Isaac Asimov eeh? Sounds cool. Thanks Feeble Wizard! It sounds like it would even further spark my imagination about the topic.
How many book are in the series?

[Feeble Wizard]

There are five books in the main series:
Foundation
Foundation and Empire
Second Foundation
Foundation's Edge
Foundation and Earth

There are also a couple of other books that take place before these, when the scientist was coming up with his equations:
Prelude to Foundation
Forward the Foundation

Also, after Isaac Asimov died a few other Foundation books were written, but they are not as good. I only read one of them.

Also, all of these books take place in the same universe as his other works of fiction, such as the Galactic Empire series and I Robot (which I hear is completely different than the movie that I did not see).

[pytis]

You know i tryed most of those things and everything was a falure to me becouse i was too skeptical but i know LD's are real so im still trying!

a good website for alot of those things is www.psipog.net explore it its great!