Missing the point of "religion"

[Unelias]

Originally Posted by Rainman

I think it's awsome that you're highly trained in martial arts. That would be a factor I never considered, and really don't know how it would go, because I am completely ignorant about the mental and physical discipline that that requires.

Martial arts is just one of my many activities that require determination and willpower. I have a habit of straining myself in order to tap more power out of me, whatever the activity might be.

Originally Posted by Rainman

What I can do is give the illusion of the feeling of the "presence of god" or whathave you, and I only do that to prove that when people are feeling the "presence of the holy spirit" they are feeling nothing more than electrical impulses that stimulate certain parts of their body and mind, and that can be completely recreated in its full intensity at anytime by anyone who even remotely knows what they're doing.

True that. I don't doubt that you succeeded in arising such a feelings. Yet, such a frail emotion is not nearly enough to sway somebody who doesn't let his heart to rule over his mind. I would never dare such a circumstancial and weak evidence to change my views anyway. I know a lot about recreating emotions and feelings, since that is a form of meditation I practice. Recreating sounds, visual images, tastes, smells or feelings via meditation and focus.

Originally Posted by Rainman

They just think they came up with ideas on their own accord. If you live in America, and English is your primary language, I guarantee you these things have affected you in some way.

Naturally everything influences our lives somehow and in some degree. Again, a sceptical and logical mind is always harder to get doubted than emotional one.

Originally Posted by Rainman

You're right though- no human can completely control another. I don't have any reason to believe that is possible. That said, humans can MOSTLY control other humans. You said it yourself-- what's religion? media?

Nothing is absolute. I have always thought that why people believe so much in any authority? Just because something is printed on a newspaper or seen in tv, doesn't make it any less vulnerable for false manipulation. People just shouldn't believe that much in anything.

In my opinion, faith is open-mindedness, as long as that's what it remains. For me that's true. And no, I cause you absolutely no harm by believing what I believe. And I, like many others, don't stand on what I believe in as if it's the one truth. This is the problem with words. To you, faith seems to mean something completely different from what it means to me.

Here we disagree. You should see the other religious threads that go around with the term open mindeness. Now, if we think the term faith how it is generally accepted as :

1. confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, an idea, or a thing.
2. belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
3. loyalty or allegiance to a person or thing; esp. fidelity to a promise.
4. the theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.

You didn't answer my question though, so I'll specify it further- Does my "belief" that after I die, I will come back in a new way in any way harm you?

Now, if I think it straight, no. Yet, since it is belief it can become twisted. It can influence your thinking and subtetly influence your choices. It has the cooking materials for something. You have a strong faith that you will be reborn. There is no proof for life after death. Thus, it could get into your head that you can do whatever you want, since you will be reborn regardless. It is pretty much same like the thinking of "if I kill myself for sake of the holy war, I'll get to the heaven." This is the core reason why faith is not a good thing. There is no need for faith, so why to create it? Is life too boring? Is there a need to spice it with romantic beliefs? This is my life-time-pondering. Why to believe? There is no logical answer, so it must be an emotional one.

I occasionally share my thoughts on things like that with others. I do not impose them upon people, nor would I ever be as arrogant as to say "this is the way it happens and there's no alternative," because you are absolutely right. People like that will never know truth. I may, because in my opinion, being willing to understand science as fact, and yet be willing to accept that there is a lot of shit we can't even begin to understand, and not be so arrogant as to believe that we already know absolutely everything, and thus, everything that is not backed by science is bullshit.

No need to get too hot with the science. All we need is real evidence and proof. True, science is based on that, but it is only logical to crave for REAL EVIDENCE before believing something to be true. Cheers to you that you don't impose your thoughts to others. I don't think anything as ruling authority. Not even science. Still, science has very good methods of ruling out the obvious flaws of theories. It has good requirements for proof. I don't believe we know absolutely everything. I am a nihilist. I don't simply believe. Anything is virtually possible, but only fools go around believing things without proof.

It's just not true. The "if you can't prove it, then it doesn't exist" mentality, is just as arrogant, close-minded, and frankly, just plain unfortunate of a mindset as the hardcore believers who pick an ideology, say "this is the only way, and everyone else is dumb, because it's OBVIOUS that (blah blah blah)." It's just as arrogant. The only difference is, at least the non-believer has SOME basis for spewing his bullshit. But like I always say, science can prove what there is, but not what there isn't. To me, you are not open-minded until you are willing to accept things from both ends.

I accept the possiblity of both ends. Again, belief and faith are completely irrelevant here. The willingness to accept something as possibilty has nothing to do with faith. Faith is not needed. Openess to ideas needs a rational and sceptical mind behind it to be succesful and not to destroy one.

Now, I already know what you'll likely say next, so I will say it for you. I too believe things when I see evidence of them. Most people who are non-believers (what a generic term- non believers in what?) are the same way. I admit, that I don't need science to prove all things, as you perhaps might.

I am no scientist. I just need proof. Good proof. Emotions or sensations are not that for me. Why? You have answered that yourself in the very beginning. I admit the possibility of fact when I see evidence. Yet, I regard nothing as truth. Everything can change, world is in constant chaos and turmoil. It would be foolish to believe something lasted forever.

But that's my point. I am willing to be open to the possibility of things that seem reasonable to me based on a combination of personal experience, and scientific aspects that we don't fully understand, without needing concrete scientific evidence. To me, that is open-mindedness. My point is, regardless of what you believe, and what I believe, we all should respect one another.

I can respect people according to their beliefs. Yet, they will lose my respect due to their actions. Too bad that for hard core believers their actions quickly pull the ground beneath them. Mutual respect is the basis of all human relationships.

Otherwise, you're generalizing. "All believers are idiots who create problems in the world." yes, I'm aware that none of you said that, but there are people who do. Hell, there are people in this forum, who say things like that. It's ignorant. Where's the "science" to back that up? Because of course, you realize, that general statements like that, even excluding the word "all" is technically, by definition, a belief, and thus the utterer of that statement is not only a moron, but a hypocrite. Get my drift?

Not quite that. More accuratetly. All humans are idiots who create problems and chaos in the world. Yet those who belief are the only ones who think they are righteous doing so. I don't justify my actions, if I "wrong" somebody I never get the excuses. Only real "excuse" I have is that this is how I lead my life. I don't drag any supernaturalities or whatsoever in it. I don't throw the responsibility onto any other being or belief. The concept of moral is trivial to me. This is the reason why I find it hilarious when some people think that they had the right of doing so or have a higher moral ground than the other guy. We all are the same. Only justification to do something is merely the capability of doing so.

Just be nice to one another. Despite what you might think, my thoughts and beliefs and ideas have nothing to do with you. They will never cause you any harm or danger. So don't bash me for what I choose to think about. You are entitled to your own beliefs and opinons and thoughts and theories, which I may or may not agree with, but I don't DISRESPECT you for them.

There is difference with a debate and a conversation. If we conversate there is no way I would get hurt by exchanging different views. If somebody tries to convert me, well then I get nasty.

So anyway, that's the point of this thread. To try to get people to stop bashing people. I don't agree with most scientologists. I don't agree with most Christians/Catholics whatever. I think it's all rubbish. But my best friend is a completely devout Catholic, and I have no problem with that. We never argue, we occasionally jest, but when we do debate, it's always very neutral. Neither of us get hard feelings about it. He shares his perspective with me, I share mine with him, I share why I agree or disagree and he does the same.

Well that is my point too. Keep belief inside your mind and you live a lot more peaceful life. I have many type of aquintances who belief in many sorts of things. I can live with them. I just see no point.

There's no need for all of the hostility that a lot of people throw on each other. All it does is add hate to the world. Some of the greatest people in the world were religious and chose to do beautiful things with it. There are goods and evils of every aspect of faith, including the non-believers, (though in my experience, the non-believers tend to be less radical.) Mother Theresa is an obvious example, but there are people all over the world who do that same thing. And yes, while doing so, many of those groups preach about the "word of god." But those people who do beautiful things for people, and commit random acts of kindness tend to go unnoticed by non-believers.

I am pretty neutral against good vs evil setting. I just regret that some people are delusional and think they are doing right thing because of their beliefs. You don't need that faith to be anything.

Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel as though non-believers (i'm just going to continue using that term for the purposes of this post. Sorry if it seems general) try to convince themselves that people who believe in something are somehow evil just because they have a different point of view that you think is inferior. So you (again, not literally YOU people here-- just in general 'people') try to justify your rudeness and blatent and outward detest of these people and their beliefs by convincing yourself that they're evil, when in fact, there is almost no basis for that.

Again the evil stuff. There is nothing evil in it. Evil doesn't exist. Disorder is the word. Their minds get messed up because of their beliefs. I just can stand the fact that they justificate due something they have come up with. I can start believing in a giant sewer rat who gives me right to kill everyone I see and rewards me with great fortune and power. I call that delusion. Justification via belief. If they only had the guts and admit that "I have no right doing this but I will keep doing it because I want to, I yearn it. Then I just mask it with some belief so people will think I am right." That abolishes the delusion. That settles the score with me. Everyone is free to do what they want. They can belief if they want. But I just regard it as cowardice ( or delusion) if they think like I have explained.

You're all about proving things, right? So how can one have such a simplistic view of such an insanely large group of people?

A general race if we are accurate. I don't keep humans in high esteem, including myself. This is the reason. We are just animals. To abolish all that we have created in order to keep the illusion up and to realize that we have no justifications, no morals, no excuses to wear as a cloak. We are just a bunch of hedonistic, unfortunatetly a bit more intelligent animals, that want everything.

[Rainman]

I'm really beginning to enjoy debating with you, Unelias, you make me have to think more.

I guess my overall point is that I keep my beliefs pretty much to myself. But as I mentioned before, I think "belief" and "faith" and similar words have different meanings for everyone. I have certain beliefs that can be neither confirmed nor denied by science. By belief, I mean an idea that I hypothesize may happen, but I do not cling to that belief, as I understand that just as much as it could happen, it could easily be just completely false. That's how I am with all of my beliefs.

I spend most of my life not really caring about what happens when we die. I care about here, and now. We can only exist "now," so why fret about things that have not yet come to pass? I don't believe I will be universally judged by some omnipotent being, (though I do believe in Karma... if need be, I will explain how that is different.)

My point is, even though faith without evidence is more likely to be wrong, keeping open to the possibility that things are possible is important. (I already know you do that in your own ways, I'm just being general right now)

Because if I believe I will go to heaven if I bomb an innocent home, and I refuse to accept any ideology apart from "the word of god," then that is fact, and thus I will bomb a home. To religiously driven people, the "word of god" IS truth. It is logica. In their minds, that's all the proof they need. Which to you and I, is absurd, naturally, but that's how it goes.

All the same, I decided that even though once upon a time, I firmly believed in a one god, and all of these psychic phenomena, through SCIENCE and my own study, I've demonstrated how one can prove that any of the "miraculous" or "supernatural" events that you experienced can be reproduced on command.

By the same token, there are things that have happened to me, that I cannot explain scientifically. While I do hold the idea that, "hey, this could have been something genuinly supernatural," thanks to open-mindedness, I've also reached the conclusion that, "perhaps I have just not yet reached a level of understanding in the realm of scientifically possible events to show how this was a result of certain natural circumstances."

Originally Posted by Unelias

You have a strong faith that you will be reborn. There is no proof for life after death. Thus, it could get into your head that you can do whatever you want, since you will be reborn regardless. It is pretty much same like the thinking of "if I kill myself for sake of the holy war, I'll get to the heaven." This is the core reason why faith is not a good thing.

Okay, to me that is completely flawed logic. That makes several unverified assumptions about my personality type. It assumes that I'm a die-hard believer in what I believe, that I assume it must be true with no alternative, although I have specifically made a point to explain to the contrary on numerous occasions. It also assumes that I believe that I have no regard for my current life, no appreciation for things around me, and have no desire to explore those things in a current life. It also assumes that I believe that my consciousness would be carried over into my next life, so I'd have my recolection of my life and mind from my previous life, which I do not believe, as I don't remember any events from a previous life (if I've had any.)

So from my "belief" (and again, "belief" is a term clearly subject to interpretation) that I will be reincarnated, you have hypothetically reached the conclusion that I am dangerous to myself and others. Again, in my opinion, it seems that you're trying to justify a reason for generalizing everyone who believes something that can't be verified by science. Because none of those things you said in that paragraph make logical sense. Those are conclusions that aren't based on your seemingly favourite concept- fact.

I'm not trying to be a smartass, by the way, this is just how I talk.

Originally Posted by Unelias

There is difference with a debate and a conversation. If we conversate there is no way I would get hurt by exchanging different views. If somebody tries to convert me, well then I get nasty.

Hah. Agreed. I guess that's my point in my original post.

They can belief if they want. But I just regard it as cowardice ( or delusion) if they think like I have explained.

Hmm... I think you've got to be careful with that one.. (well obviously you don't have to.) To me, you're placing all believers, faith-havers, etc whatever names you want to call them into the same category. They must, based on what you've said thus far, all be exactly the same. Now, obviously I'm exaggerating, I don't think you really believe that, but that's what your words seem to reflect.

I, for example, see that many people have philosophies about things. They dont' necessarily live by them, they jsut think them, and that's all they ever are. Thoughts. Now, obviously I understand the power of the subconscious to cause us to act based on what we hold close, but that's my point. Not everyone holds these things close. And even for those who do, have you considered those who in fact ARE delusional, but decide to give away millions of dollars to charities, or help build houses for the homeless, or give away their car to seomeone in need based on the logic that it will get them into heaven? Dellusional or not, there are people who cling to their beliefs and GOOD results from it.

All the same, my beliefs are very open, and very subject to immediate change. That's because my beliefs aren't beliefs as you would define them. To me, they are ideas. Things that I believe are possible, and if I find reason to believe they aren't possible, I will assume that they aren't. I suppose it's a lot like smoking pot, and talking about the universe and stuff. I think my beliefs are more in terms of "what ifs" than anything else.

[Unelias]

Originally Posted by Rainman

I guess my overall point is that I keep my beliefs pretty much to myself. But as I mentioned before, I think "belief" and "faith" and similar words have different meanings for everyone. I have certain beliefs that can be neither confirmed nor denied by science. By belief, I mean an idea that I hypothesize may happen, but I do not cling to that belief, as I understand that just as much as it could happen, it could easily be just completely false. That's how I am with all of my beliefs.

Even though you are describing it with very unfamiliar manner, your belief and faith seem to correspond to my idea of possibility or chance. It is just healthy to think like that. For me there is no reason why something would be impossible. Everything can happen or exists yet the probability can vary.

Originally Posted by Rainman

I spend most of my life not really caring about what happens when we die. I care about here, and now. We can only exist "now," so why fret about things that have not yet come to pass? I don't believe I will be universally judged by some omnipotent being, (though I do believe in Karma... if need be, I will explain how that is different.)

I focus on living since it is something that exists now. If my existence were to continue after death, I can think that then. Untill then I have no need to think anything further, unless I want to toss around funny ideas. Concept of karma is very natural if you leave the supernatural factor out of it. Of course people will respond to your actions and perform a counteraction. Acts have consequences, yet the consequences have nothing to do with morality. It would be, at least for me, quite childish to believe that "good brings happiness and evil brings misery". Totally subjective concepts.

Originally Posted by Rainman

My point is, even though faith without evidence is more likely to be wrong, keeping open to the possibility that things are possible is important. (I already know you do that in your own ways, I'm just being general right now)

Precisely. I see no reason to run with faith.

Originally Posted by Rainman

Because if I believe I will go to heaven if I bomb an innocent home, and I refuse to accept any ideology apart from "the word of god," then that is fact, and thus I will bomb a home. To religiously driven people, the "word of god" IS truth. It is logica. In their minds, that's all the proof they need. Which to you and I, is absurd, naturally, but that's how it goes.

I see no reason to rely on purely subjectical proof. Even if god himself appeared before me, that doesn't mean I would turn into his follower. Maybe I could accept his existence, but not join him. Of course, those who have strong faith think it is a logical and viable evidence. If I start to develope severe skitzofrenia and start hearing voices in my head, are they viable proof to allow me to justify something I do? On top of that, I don't think that just because a deity should command one to do something it had any more justification than a command from a general to kill someone.

Sidenote : I am not native English speaker so forgive me if I use the word "you" too much since I don't mean it as you personally.

Originally Posted by Rainman

All the same, I decided that even though once upon a time, I firmly believed in a one god, and all of these psychic phenomena, through SCIENCE and my own study, I've demonstrated how one can prove that any of the "miraculous" or "supernatural" events that you experienced can be reproduced on command.

If one puts faith before actual study and evidence he ends up going circles and inventing flawless explanations or just explanations that are so miraculous that they can basically explain everything. There is nothing you cannot explain through supernatural. Proving it is the another thing. Why it rains? Gods cry. Why don't atheist believe god? They hate him, but god loves them regardless. I detest things like that and religion runs with that fuel.

I agree with what you say. Doubt gives more strength to go on. Understanding that something can be explained with way different method that what they taught you.

Originally Posted by Rainman

By the same token, there are things that have happened to me, that I cannot explain scientifically. While I do hold the idea that, "hey, this could have been something genuinly supernatural," thanks to open-mindedness, I've also reached the conclusion that, "perhaps I have just not yet reached a level of understanding in the realm of scientifically possible events to show how this was a result of certain natural circumstances."

Precisely. Lack of understanding is something that must be accepted. This is where most of the people run into pitfalls. They draw conclusions without proper evidence or very fragile evidence. I have studied many things I cannot explain or neither can science nor religion. I can study them without starting to belief in something or have faith. Out of curiosity. My fuel is curiosity.

Originally Posted by Rainman

Okay, to me that is completely flawed logic. That makes several unverified assumptions about my personality type. It assumes that I'm a die-hard believer in what I believe, that I assume it must be true with no alternative, although I have specifically made a point to explain to the contrary on numerous occasions. It also assumes that I believe that I have no regard for my current life, no appreciation for things around me, and have no desire to explore those things in a current life. It also assumes that I believe that my consciousness would be carried over into my next life, so I'd have my recolection of my life and mind from my previous life, which I do not believe, as I don't remember any events from a previous life (if I've had any.)

My apologies here. I misused the word "you". I was not trying to judge your personal traits or whatsoever, simply speaking generally. I must learn to speak so I won't offend people when I don't mean it. I am still learning the language.

Regardless, this was more about the extreme outcomes of faith. It can always go into that, get twisted and corrupted. Why to even give it chance?

Originally Posted by Rainman

So from my "belief" (and again, "belief" is a term clearly subject to interpretation) that I will be reincarnated, you have hypothetically reached the conclusion that I am dangerous to myself and others. Again, in my opinion, it seems that you're trying to justify a reason for generalizing everyone who believes something that can't be verified by science. Because none of those things you said in that paragraph make logical sense. Those are conclusions that aren't based on your seemingly favourite concept- fact.

I'm not trying to be a smartass, by the way, this is just how I talk.

Again I am not raising science an authority over others. Fact is a word that is not eternal. Facts can change. Facts are just something that have so much evidence that they can be labelled as that. It has an concept that rivals it : faith. I am not building your psychological profile here. Again, my apologies for my lack of ability to shape my thoughts in proper manner.

Originally Posted by Rainman

Hmm... I think you've got to be careful with that one.. (well obviously you don't have to.) To me, you're placing all believers, faith-havers, etc whatever names you want to call them into the same category. They must, based on what you've said thus far, all be exactly the same. Now, obviously I'm exaggerating, I don't think you really believe that, but that's what your words seem to reflect.

No, I don't have to. They aren't exactly the same, but the share the before mentioned traits which makes them to lose respect in my eyes.

Regarding this, you still haven't answered the top questions, which I have pondered very long time. If I may inquire your opinion regarding them.

There is no need for faith, so why to create it?

Is life too boring? Is there a need to spice it with romantic beliefs

Why to believe?

Originally Posted by Rainman

I, for example, see that many people have philosophies about things. They dont' necessarily live by them, they jsut think them, and that's all they ever are. Thoughts.

Even though principles are something I don't have, I think that if one has beliefs or principles he should keep them with determination. If not, what is the point? You could live well even without.

Originally Posted by Rainman

Now, obviously I understand the power of the subconscious to cause us to act based on what we hold close, but that's my point. Not everyone holds these things close. And even for those who do, have you considered those who in fact ARE delusional, but decide to give away millions of dollars to charities, or help build houses for the homeless, or give away their car to seomeone in need based on the logic that it will get them into heaven? Dellusional or not, there are people who cling to their beliefs and GOOD results from it.

Are they? Again, it is purely subjective how their actions benefit them. If they start feeling good after giving away things, then sure. Why not? Its their freedom.The only benefiting thing they achieve is emotional well being. Material well being naturally suffers. If they believe that they get into heaven after doing those deeds. Still after doing those they feel miserable about wasting money, but at least the place in heaven has been bought. This is delusional. People shouldn't try to betray themselves.

My nihilism answers this : for me there are no preferable actions over something else. Only think that keeps me going is my ego and my curiosity. Only value that I could possibly have is freedom. This is all I base my life on. Absolute freedom. I decide most of the things with my logical mind. My feelings are what fuel me, the hedonistic side. Everything that benefits my survival and makes me stronger and wiser.

Originally Posted by Rainman

All the same, my beliefs are very open, and very subject to immediate change. That's because my beliefs aren't beliefs as you would define them. To me, they are ideas. Things that I believe are possible, and if I find reason to believe they aren't possible, I will assume that they aren't. I suppose it's a lot like smoking pot, and talking about the universe and stuff. I think my beliefs are more in terms of "what ifs" than anything else.

Well this sounds more like it. Communication breakdown because we labelled different terms with different words. I would call your things ideas too. Possibilities.

I am sorry that there will most likely be incorrect things typed here or thought. I am very tired after a week of staying awake and I think I am catching a flu. I'll see if I am in a better shape in the morning.

-Un

[Rainman]

Aha, things are starting to make sense to me now. I always try to keep in mind that everyone has slightly different understandings of words. That's the problem with language. First of all-

Originally Posted by Unelias

Sidenote : I am not native English speaker so forgive me if I use the word "you" too much since I don't mean it as you personally.

Well, you fooled me. You write in English very well. I wouldn't have ever guessed that you didn't speak it natively.

Originally Posted by Unelias

Even though you are describing it with very unfamiliar manner, your belief and faith seem to correspond to my idea of possibility or chance. It is just healthy to think like that. For me there is no reason why something would be impossible. Everything can happen or exists yet the probability can vary.

Now THAT makes sense to me. Although probablility should (and often doesn't) play a role in our thoughts, for some it weighs more heavily than for others.

Originally Posted by Unelias

There is no need for faith, so why to create it?

Originally Posted by Unelias

Is life too boring? Is there a need to spice it with romantic beliefs

The idea that there is no need for faith is relative. Some faith is simply on a "hope" level. Some people do NEED to believe in something beyond human understanding. Take for example a poor person who lost their job, and is going to have their home foreclosed, and have no way to support themselves. Obviously, a person with any logic would not stop trying to find ways to fix this situation themselves, but alongside with that, MANY MANY people, including close friends of mine and family choose to believe that there is a loving god watching out for them. They choose to believe that on a supernatural, universal, and karmic level, that everything happens for a reason. Whether they are right or wrong, their belief in a loving higher power might be enough to stop them from giving up and becoming homeless.

Or take for example, my own personal experience. Back when I was a diehard Christian, I saw my friend get shot in the back of the head. It took me many years to cope with this. I also lost my home, many of my friends, some of whom passed away, overdosed on drugs, and I had no direction for my life. No idea where it was going, or why I should continue to live with so much pain. I sat in my room with a Beretta 92 for several hours contemplating why I should continue to live.

I remembered at the time that there was a god looking out for me, and I suddenly had that familiar feeling of what I believed to be the holy spirit living within me. I cried and came to the conclusion that I couldnt' kill myself because god had a plan.

Now, of course, now I do not necessarily believe in a god. I also do not believe for certain that a god does not exist. Either way, what I believe NOW is irrelevent. If I had not had the belief in something higher during that time in my life, I would be dead, undoubtedly. Even though my belief in a god may have been blind, at the time it saved my life.

That's obviously a much more extreme example, but similar situations like that happen everyday. There is always a balance. Almost nothing in this world is 100% bad or pointless. Faith/religion/belief causes many people to do many stupid things, in my opinion. But it also causes people to do good thigns. Even if they are only doing it for personal gain of "getting into heaven," it doesn't matter. The outcome is what's important. There are positives and negatives to almost everything.

Originally Posted by Unelias

Why to believe?

Now THAT is a good question! There are different reasons for everyone. For me, I no longer have a reason to actively believe anything. (See what I did there? ) But other people do. There is no universal answer to this question. I think the reason to believe is subjective. Some people have not reached your level of understanding and appreciation for life. Many people still feel the need to be a part of something larger. Some other people with sad lives, no parents, no one to care for them, etc just need to be loved.

Part of the point of my initial post is that not everyone is on an equal level of conscious awareness. Countless people are lost in the grip of the human ego which constantly wants and needs and is miserable. Other people are just now starting to wake up. Others like you, already understand the beauty of life, and have no "need" to fullfill. Thus, for those people who already fully appreciate the way their reality is, the concept of faith in something more is illogical. So I do now understand exactly where you're coming from.

But not everyone is awake yet. Not everyone can feel that way, and so for many people, faith is a way to cope with difficulties in their life (even if their difficulties are self-fullfilling profecies and other perceptions that don't have to happen) just like when I was a suicidal kid. Again, now that I've reached a high level of appreciation for my life and the power of remaining in the present moment at all times, I don't necessarily need to believe in anything else, so I agree with you on that.

Originally Posted by Unelias

Regardless, this was more about the extreme outcomes of faith. It can always go into that, get twisted and corrupted. Why to even give it chance?

But isn't that true of every belief of any kind? If I were to believe that all religious people were responsible for the biggest crimes, and everything bad was a result of religion, and that all people with faith are dangerous, then an extreme outcome would be that I determine that religion is evil, and in order to restore peace, I must kill all religious people. That sounds familiar doesn't it? That's because a similar thing happened with the Jewish holocaust. Everything that results in a generalization or belief of some kind that is not necessarily valid or verifiable has the potential to go awry. Everything has two sides. So using the same logic as you when you suggest that all faith leads to bad thigns, I could say that all people who believe religion is evil could decide that the only way to ssave the world is to kill all religious people.

BOTH of those arguments are completely ridiculous, in my opinon. You can't generalize about such an enormous group of people.

Originally Posted by Unelias

I am sorry that there will most likely be incorrect things typed here or thought. I am very tired after a week of staying awake and I think I am catching a flu. I'll see if I am in a better shape in the morning.

Nah, I "believe" I understood everything you said. I think if you're feeling ill, you really need to rest. Hope you feel better, mate.

-Rain

[Unelias]

Originally Posted by Rainman

The idea that there is no need for faith is relative. Some faith is simply on a "hope" level. Some people do NEED to believe in something beyond human understanding. Take for example a poor person who lost their job, and is going to have their home foreclosed, and have no way to support themselves. Obviously, a person with any logic would not stop trying to find ways to fix this situation themselves, but alongside with that, MANY MANY people, including close friends of mine and family choose to believe that there is a loving god watching out for them. They choose to believe that on a supernatural, universal, and karmic level, that everything happens for a reason. Whether they are right or wrong, their belief in a loving higher power might be enough to stop them from giving up and becoming homeless.

I don't think they really need to. I consider it more like crossroads where is the rough path and the tourist path. They take the tourist one. For me, it is living in an illusion. But well, they have the freedom.. I think the core reason for this kind of thinking is the idea that humans are something great. People put too much value on our race. We are basically no different from animals. A human life is not precious. People die all the time.

Also, it takes a highly illogical brain to think that there is a loving god in a chaotic world like ours. Why would we be part of any greater cause or plan? Just human romaticism, which rises from our belief that we are something great. The crown of a god's kingdom. Just because we fly on airplanes, kiss with our tongues, wear clothes and are able to think more than other animals.

Or take for example, my own personal experience. Back when I was a diehard Christian, I saw my friend get shot in the back of the head. It took me many years to cope with this. I also lost my home, many of my friends, some of whom passed away, overdosed on drugs, and I had no direction for my life. No idea where it was going, or why I should continue to live with so much pain. I sat in my room with a Beretta 92 for several hours contemplating why I should continue to live.

I have seen many my friends and other people be reaped like wheat. I have seen other violent and horrible things. Again, for me living takes a lot more than suicide. For me living is strenght, since it is our existence. What we are.

I remembered at the time that there was a god looking out for me, and I suddenly had that familiar feeling of what I believed to be the holy spirit living within me. I cried and came to the conclusion that I couldnt' kill myself because god had a plan.

Or maybe it was just your survival instinct kicking in in a form of god. Who knows? For me, there is no reason for life. No greater cause or any divine plan. I just continue my existence and try to enjoy my life, feeding my ego. I have lead a succesful life if I regret nothing when I draw my last breath.

Now, of course, now I do not necessarily believe in a god. I also do not believe for certain that a god does not exist. Either way, what I believe NOW is irrelevent. If I had not had the belief in something higher during that time in my life, I would be dead, undoubtedly. Even though my belief in a god may have been blind, at the time it saved my life.

Well then I quess it contributed to your existence. If I needed a belief or faith to continue my life, I would kill myself since I had become that weak. That is my form of thinking though. My philosophy goes a lot around with terms like strong and weak. I don't want to be weak. I don't want to live the easy way.

That's obviously a much more extreme example, but similar situations like that happen everyday. There is always a balance. Almost nothing in this world is 100% bad or pointless. Faith/religion/belief causes many people to do many stupid things, in my opinion. But it also causes people to do good thigns. Even if they are only doing it for personal gain of "getting into heaven," it doesn't matter. The outcome is what's important. There are positives and negatives to almost everything.

I am not that much interested about good or bad thinking. I don't believe in wrong or right, they are again only subjective terms. Bad or good are more viable since some actions can be good or bad to the one's existence. But I cannot think like there were something that is unversally evil or good. There is nothing evil in nature or in cosmos. We are all only humans, nobody has the justification to tell someone that something is wrong or right. It's all inside their head.

Now THAT is a good question! There are different reasons for everyone. For me, I no longer have a reason to actively believe anything. (See what I did there? ) But other people do. There is no universal answer to this question. I think the reason to believe is subjective. Some people have not reached your level of understanding and appreciation for life. Many people still feel the need to be a part of something larger. Some other people with sad lives, no parents, no one to care for them, etc just need to be loved.

Hmm - I wouldn't call it appreciation of life. It is more like that I have realized how pointless human life really is. The rough reality. When you strip away all that we have invented it leaves only an empy shell. The only fuel that keeps me going is my ego, the very me. No political ideals, no religion, no faith, no beliefs, no excuses. If you think the concept of a holy spirit or everlasting soul, it all makes sense. It is the product of human fear of aging and dying. All the evidence suggest that physical body rots and turns to dust and bones after death. Literally, our existence ends there. Now, in fear soul was invented. Something that will continue our existence after our body is dead. It is just source of relief. Again, for me it is yet another mask. Another illusion. It takes strenght to walk on the void. Inventing stepping stones is something I consider as weakness. This is how I am.

Part of the point of my initial post is that not everyone is on an equal level of conscious awareness. Countless people are lost in the grip of the human ego which constantly wants and needs and is miserable. Other people are just now starting to wake up. Others like you, already understand the beauty of life, and have no "need" to fullfill. Thus, for those people who already fully appreciate the way their reality is, the concept of faith in something more is illogical. So I do now understand exactly where you're coming from.

Yes something like that. Yet, it is more that what I explained in the previous chapter. Of course, I find appreciation in life in the form of my hedonistic needs. Things satisfy me so I want to continue my existence. To create and to destroy. I enjoy both.

But not everyone is awake yet. Not everyone can feel that way, and so for many people, faith is a way to cope with difficulties in their life (even if their difficulties are self-fullfilling profecies and other perceptions that don't have to happen) just like when I was a suicidal kid. Again, now that I've reached a high level of appreciation for my life and the power of remaining in the present moment at all times, I don't necessarily need to believe in anything else, so I agree with you on that.

Precisely. Only difference is that I, quite rudely, label such a people as weak. This is just my way of putting things. Harsh, but it's my way.

But isn't that true of every belief of any kind? If I were to believe that all religious people were responsible for the biggest crimes, and everything bad was a result of religion, and that all people with faith are dangerous, then an extreme outcome would be that I determine that religion is evil, and in order to restore peace, I must kill all religious people. That sounds familiar doesn't it? That's because a similar thing happened with the Jewish holocaust. Everything that results in a generalization or belief of some kind that is not necessarily valid or verifiable has the potential to go awry. Everything has two sides. So using the same logic as you when you suggest that all faith leads to bad thigns, I could say that all people who believe religion is evil could decide that the only way to ssave the world is to kill all religious people.

I am pretty indifferent about what people do. People do all kinds of things without further notice and they can do it if they are only able. What irritates me is the justification.To think it is right to do so because of something else than your own basic desires. Your example is all the same like mine. To justify something because of belief. It is a fact that faith and beliefs are very likely to bring chaos. It is unstable since it is based on something that is unsure. Thus, it can evolve into anything that is convenient for the cause.

I don't care if people killed each other. But if they think it is justificated. Hell with them. It is a very paradoxal idea and I am unsure if you can understand it. I just despise the cloak under which they envelope themselves. They should just admit that I like killing people. Not that these people are gods enemies, for example.

I must correct you. I didn't say an absolute. Not all faith leads inherently to "bad things" or chaos. But it has very high probability. So high that I think faith should be abolished. Just to make a world a less more chaotic and random.

-Un