I would probably give $1,000,000 to anyone that could convince me that God exists.

[davej]

I'm sorry Onus, should have made myself more clear, i meant in general so many have said prove their is a God, well why don't those disprove there is a God.

or better yet,
why can't we just agree to disagree and stop debating over the topic.

[davej]

I know in my heart that there is a God, that jesus died on the cross for my sins. I see it in my everyday life, in my personal relationship with God and in everything that He has done for me. That is proof enough for me.

[evildoctor]

Noogah,

Congrats first on posting the largest wall of text I have seen on this forum or indeed any other.

I did actually read about half way down the first wall before I lost patience.

I saw references to:

"metaphor" - therfore no obvious contraditction here
"poety" - therefore no obvious contradicition
"This versus is best understood in light of versu XXXX - therefore no obvious contradiction here.

All you have done is proven my point once more. That any xtian can take a verse and either interperet it DIRECTLY if this suits their purpose, or subjectively, or indeed play it down as being a metaphor or some other bull.


Here though is the one where I stopped as it made me laugh the hardest :

20. God cannot lie [Heb 6:18]

God lies by proxy; he sends forth lying spirits to deceive [2 Thes 2:11 / 1 Kings 22:23 / Ezek 14:9]

In this case, we need not even consider the scriptures. As "sending forth lying spirits" is not the same as actually lying yourself.

WTF - are you serious!!!

But, wait...... MaryAnna White notes:

1 Kings 22:21-22 Lying spirit -- Here, of course, God does not lie directly nor approve of nor sanction man's lying. One could argue that all that happens on earth is permitted by God -- He could stop it if He saw fit. He even permitted Satan to cause Job to suffer -- a much more interesting case. But that does not mean that He is the source of all such things. They just afford Him opportunities, as here, to accomplish what He is after. As they are useful to Him, He permits them to continue for a season. Like Judas. Eventually, those instruments no longer useful, all such spirits and men will be judged by being cast into the eternal lake of fire. That is neither approval nor sanction, but merely proof of God's sovereignty. --MAW


LOL - sending forth lying spirits is not the same as actually lying yourself.

FAIL - If I killed you this would be murder. If I sent someone else to murder you THEN THIS IS STILL MURDER. We can repeat this example with lying, thievery, anything you like.

As to "Mary Anne notes...." - all she is mearly repeating the age old xtian get out clause that "the sky fairy moves in mysterious ways" - oh and "ours is not to wonder why". Bleah!

"That is neither approval nor sanction, but merely proof of God's sovereignty" - yeah right! As many of us have said over and over - this means the "god of love" (who mutated from naughty to nice between the old and new testaments apparently) - can do what ever he likes including bad stuff if it suits his purpose, but of course all in the name of love, mercy and forgiveness. (loud sound of evildoctor farting irreverently)

[O'nus]

Originally Posted by davej

I'm sorry Onus, should have made myself more clear, i meant in general so many have said prove their is a God, well why don't those disprove there is a God.

or better yet,
why can't we just agree to disagree and stop debating over the topic.

I really respect you davej, as you have been willing to debate me lately. The people I most respect, I hope to learn from or offer some enlightenment.

With that in mind, I hope that you can learn something from me, or that you can teach me.

You see, you are still saying the same thing, "disprove me!". It is not anyone else's responsibility to disprove your God. It is you that takes the leap of faith to presume and say that there is God when you have no proof. Asking someone to disprove it, when there is no proof, only demonstrates that point; that you have no proof or reason to believe in God.

Why do you think someone asks you for proof? Other people, like myself, would love to believe in God; but we need a reason. Offering subjective reasons with no justification does nothing for anyone else but yourself.

I would gladly stop debating with you, if you would like, but I honestly hope that it offers mutual enlightenment.

Originally Posted by davej

I know in my heart that there is a God, that jesus died on the cross for my sins. I see it in my everyday life, in my personal relationship with God and in everything that He has done for me. That is proof enough for me.

I am glad that you have something that offers a sense of comfort for your everyday life.

Though, in the words of Friedrich Nietzsche,

"A stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith proves nothing"

You must see that, even the unfaithful like myself, are still able to live incredibly happy lives without a God! How are we able to do this?

Psychologically, some people need that attachment in order to feel comfortable and happy in life. It is not a matter over whether it is true or not, but that it is a means of coping. In that case, it makes me sad as the meaning of life is really a facade to happiness.

Perhaps I will create a thread illustrating the attachment theory of religion.

What do you think...?

~

[Mario92]

Go forth, O'nus, and create your thread. I'd love to comment on it...

[evildoctor]

Originally Posted by O'nus

Psychologically, some people need that attachment in order to feel comfortable and happy in life. It is not a matter over whether it is true or not, but that it is a means of coping. In that case, it makes me sad as the meaning of life is really a facade to happiness.

Perhaps I will create a thread illustrating the attachment theory of religion.

What do you think...?

~

Yes please.

[Noogah]

Originally Posted by O'nus

there are millions of people that believe what you believe, adhere to the New Testament, and still utilize it to justify cruel acts

Originally Posted by O'nus

OTHER PEOPLE utilize these quotes to justify their acts and would consider you ignorant to the real point

Originally Posted by O'nus

there are far too many people to ignore that use the bible to commit violence

Originally Posted by O'nus

a text that can, and has, been easily used to justify the murder of millions of people

Originally Posted by O'nus

Do not ignore the millions of people that utilize your holy scripture to justify unspeakable cruelty.

Originally Posted by O'nus

I also know that there are far many more people that do bad.

Give an example. Yes, the crusaders DID, but who DOES?

And if this is really your point...then what exactly are you getting at?

Originally Posted by O'nus

However, something like a humanist code is plain, simple, and cannot be muddled up like a religious scripture.

The Bible's point is pretty clear cut.

People use it for bad. Yes, they do. People can use anything for bad, if they want. But of what importance is that? Your point is so incredibly vague, it's giving me a headache.

Listen. Just spell out your point. I seem to have the wrong impression, and cannot debate any longer until I get it.

I am under the impression that your point is...

"People use the Bible for bad, and thus the Bible is bad."

or

"People use the Bible for bad, so the Bible should abolished."

or maybe

"People don't need the Bible, because they can do good anyways."

Just spell it out plain, and simply, and then we can continue with this.

That's pretty all I can say, as I am totally perplexed by now.

[Noogah]

Originally Posted by evildoctor

That any xtian can take a verse and either interperet it DIRECTLY if this suits their purpose, or subjectively, or indeed play it down as being a metaphor

Actually, it was all pretty clear cut. Basically, she read the whole Bible, and showed how the contradictions were not contradictions.

None of your "contradictions" are even challenging.

Call them mere "intrpretations" if you like. If they aren't "interpretations" then I don't really know what they are, or what you're annoyed about.

[evildoctor]

Originally Posted by Noogah

Actually, it was all pretty clear cut. Basically, she read the whole Bible, and showed how the contradictions were not contradictions.

None of your "contradictions" are even challenging.

Call them mere "intrpretations" if you like. If they aren't "interpretations" then I don't really know what they are, or what you're annoyed about.

Interpretation is exactly the point Noogah. Sigh. This is what Onus and I keep trying to tell you.

You asked for Onus to show you WHO DOES use the bible for hate.

Well try this. Its actually a Baptist Church forum. Just like this one only for xtian maniacs. Check out this thread - read the first few pages.....

Its about killing wiccans. Wiccans as you may or may not know are the neo-pagan new age witchcraft movement. They are nature worshippers. Their one commandment is "Harm none" - which means they dont harm people or even animals. The arch bishop of cantebury (englands head of the xtian church) said that xtianity can learn ALOT about tollerance and love from the wiccans. But have a read to see what your fellow christians over at Landover baptist church think should be done to them.....

START WITH PAGE 2....

http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=4952

And all because it says in the OT that "thous shall not suffer a witch to live"

Pretty sick if you ask me.

Thats a nice religion you have there Noog - pat on back.

[Noogah]

Man evildoctor, you've really out done yourself this time.

That thread was a joke. Get it? A joke? A bad joke, yeah. But a joke nonetheless.

I think that whole forum is one elaborate joke. If not, they are pretty...whats your word for it...radical?

Again, OT verse that no longer applies.

EDIT: Yup. That forum is an elaborate hoax. Look at this.

[evildoctor]

Noogah,

Some of the replies are "jokes", other sadly not.

I specifically chose the baptists for this very reason.

When I get home I will show you other examples. Such as Texan baptist preists calling for Wiccans to be stoned - yep stoned - right here in the 21st century America. Or the Arizona Baptist Preist who wants god to kill BHO. If I start googling for Baptist inspired hate crimes against gays what else do you think I might find...

There's sadly lots.

It also amused me that the thread and others on that site are encouraging good christians not to take part in Halloween. Because its satanic apparently. It was a pagan saxon/celtic tradition that the church "absorbed" back in about 900EV. The pagans didnt worship satan - satan is after all a christian construct/myth.

[O'nus]

Originally Posted by Noogah

Give an example. Yes, the crusaders DID, but who DOES?

And if this is really your point...then what exactly are you getting at?

You said that people do not use the NT to justify cruelty; I gave you examples already (Paul Hill, Pope Urban II).

Another example;
+ http://www.godhatesfags.com/
+ http://www.godhatesamerica.com/

The point is that many people use the NT to commit cruelty. Even if you think you can justify and rationalize the quotes that were used, the point remains is that it is utilized for cruelty. Even if you think that you are seeing the "true" view of the NT, there are many other people who, in fact, think you are wrong and use the NT to justify cruelty.

You noted that we ought not to care what others think and believe and yet here we are looking at what simple beliefs can do; murder millions of people in the names of their Gods.

The Bible's point is pretty clear cut.

People use it for bad. Yes, they do. People can use anything for bad, if they want. But of what importance is that? Your point is so incredibly vague, it's giving me a headache.

No, it is not. How is Humanism used for bad?

If you can tell me how Humanism can be used to justify a cruel act, then I will consider myself proven wrong. You will excuse me when I have little confidence in you being able to prove such a thing though.

Listen. Just spell out your point. I seem to have the wrong impression, and cannot debate any longer until I get it.

I am under the impression that your point is...

"People use the Bible for bad, and thus the Bible is bad."

or

"People use the Bible for bad, so the Bible should abolished."

or maybe

"People don't need the Bible, because they can do good anyways."

Just spell it out plain, and simply, and then we can continue with this.

That's pretty all I can say, as I am totally perplexed by now.

I have not said any of those things and even tried predicting this confusion of yours and you still are too stubborn to read it.

I am saying that, yes, there are many people that can be good and follow the bible. However, there are a significant many people that do evil, not only the name of the NT, but other holy scriptures in general.

Then, I asked of you, the good that you see in the bible; how is that not capable of utilizing in humanism? Why attach a God and something that is easily mis-interpreted to justify evil when something like Humanism is the very thing you are utilizing to do good in?

- Religions good; easily construed to do evil and wrong
- Humanism; cannot be misconstrued, always for the flourishing of man.

All the good things you may ascribe to religion (eg. "the Golden rule") are what make up the heart of Humanism except without the dogmatic problem that offers "mis-interpretations" for cruelty.

So, why use such a flawed system when a much better and concrete one exists?

~

[evildoctor]

Originally Posted by Noogah

EDIT: Yup. That forum is an elaborate hoax. Look at this.

LOL,

Kudos Noogah, you are right. I checked out the other subforums and figured out it was a parody.

Trouble is they are very successfully parodying real life. If you check your wikipedia link you will see that enraged xtian groups are trying to have it shut down.

My bad - but trust me - a quick search through the news archives of the deep south will show plenty of modern day bible inspired, church endorsed hate crimes.

[Noogah]

Okay O'nus. Thankyou.

That's the kind of explanation I wanted. I'll get to work on a reply, but I've been busy with some personal writing projects, and it may be a day or two. I won't gone all week, but don't think I've jumped ship if I don't get to your post right away.

I will still be around for a little bit, but your post will require a lot of work.

So basically,

[Universal Mind]

Originally Posted by Noogah

I'll get to work on a reply, but I've been busy with some personal writing projects

Keeper, is that you?

[Noogah]

Ach!

I'm afraid I shall be even further delayed. Just got 73 inch Mitsubishi flatscreen TV delivered.

I'm afraid I'm having a real headache setting it up.

[evildoctor]

Yet you found time to post a wall of bibble verse in my Women must submit thread.......?

[O'nus]

You could save a lot of time if you just said, "I believe what I believe for no reason and you cannot convince me otherwise."

That is where I would personally draw the line and stop debating anyone.

~

[Noogah]

That would work for someone who believes something without one reason as to why.

Pitty. I spent so much time writing a chunk on why I believe what I believe.

O'nus, that's a real insult. I hope you realize just how rude that is.

We've been doing house renovations this week, and I think I might need to get a proffesional out to check the cable. I think I'm gonna have a pretty bad weekend.

Originally Posted by evildoctor

Yet you found time to post a wall of bibble verse in my Women must submit thread.......?

Copy-pasted.

Took about thirty seconds.

[O'nus]

Originally Posted by Noogah

That would work for someone who believes something without one reason as to why.

You may have explanations, but so far, no justifications.

Pitty. I spent so much time writing a chunk on why I believe what I believe.

O'nus, that's a real insult. I hope you realize just how rude that is.

It was an implication. You must realize that most people, in faith, realize that it is just that; faith. There is no reason or justification, it is just faith. There is no reason, no scientific thought, nothing; just faith. If you were to say, "I am faithful just because I am faithful" then I could say nothing as there would be nothing to say.

We've been doing house renovations this week, and I think I might need to get a proffesional out to check the cable. I think I'm gonna have a pretty bad weekend.

I look forward to your reply and hope that you do not leave it abandoned as before. You will understand when I speculate that you do not want to face something difficult to cope with.

~

[Noogah]

Originally Posted by O'nus

You must realize that most people, in faith, realize that it is just that; faith. There is no reason or justification, it is just faith. There is no reason, no scientific thought, nothing; just faith. If you were to say, "I am faithful just because I am faithful"

Weird. I know that there are facets inside of religion that must have faith, but I know of fewno people who actually have faith with no reasons.

Originally Posted by O'nus

You will understand when I speculate that you do not want to face something difficult to cope with.

Nope.

Gotta go. Sure hope I didn't waste a bunch of money on some crumby tv.

It was 3d ready and everything!

[spockman]

People also use atheism to justify anything terrible- trying to convince everyone that everything means nothing to anyone. You could not argue well, I think, that the Pope during the crusades was worse than Stalin.

Stalin was an amoral cretin believing that whatever he did couldn't be wrong since there was no right and wrong.

Either way, it is seperate from the actual topic itself. There are also a lot of reaaallly stupid liberals and reaallly stupid conservatives. ALOT. And alot of them believe very radical, very stupid things. But arguing reagonomics by pointing at any one of those people isn't actually debating the issue.

Not to say you aren't debating the issue, guys. Just saying that pointing at the terrible things religion has justified is pointless. Religion didn't create that crap. Politics did. If religion didn't unite people to kill other people, fealty would. Or just plain fear that the guy with the bigger stick would beat him to death. The anglo-saxons were religous, sure, but also pretty nihlistic. They killed each other all the friggin' time not due to loyalty to a god nearly as often as loyalty to their lord. (That is mortal lord. The whole system of thanes and all that jazz.)

As far as Noogahs contextual refutations, (bravo on all that research man. having debated similar things, I know how much research can go into each and every point. Seriously.) contextual refutations are as good as any other.

Revelations, a book of prophecy cannot be taken literally unless you want to say, "Christians are all dumb because they must think monsters will come from the crevace of the Earth and eat people and then other people will breathe fire at them like dragons! Wow, Christains are gullible! And those that don't believe it aren't scriptoral. Woo-hoo. I win."

That above qoute is ridiculous just as ignoring the writing medium of each book is ridiculous. A Poem, a worship song, is about getting inspired by God to feel his presence and glorify him and let the words come out. We can relate to its emotions and art. But it is not thought out in a doctorinal sense. Placing doctorine on Song of Solomen is shaky at best.

Different books have different purpose. Consider it.

Man, I need to compile a list of the greatest 'Biblical Contradiction Logical Fallacies.'

[davej]

O'nus
I actually enjoy speaking with you about religious topics. That is when we can be respectful in our comments to one another. Obviously, God can not be proven. It is called (as mentioned) faith that I go by. Like i said before, it is the everyday things in my life that proves to me there is a God. Now these proofs might not be somehting you can put your hand on but I see them. if you or anyone else would like to call it a copeing mechanisim, that doesn't bother me. Call it what you will. I know in my heart that there is a God and that he is alive in my heart and life. I know that doesn't account much for you but it does for me.

[Noogah]

Originally Posted by O'nus

The point is that many people use the NT to commit cruelty.

I still don't understand how that's a point. It's a fact, not a point. Yes, people use the NT for violence (on very rare occasions). What are you getting at? Are you trying to demean the NT? Are you trying to say it's dangerous? So far, you're only stating the facts, and not coming to any conclusion.

Originally Posted by O'nus

we are looking at what simple beliefs can do

So now we're discussing beliefs as a whole. Well in that case, put atheism on the list.

Like Spockman said...

Originally Posted by Spockman

People also use atheism to justify anything terrible- trying to convince everyone that everything means nothing to anyone. You could not argue well, I think, that the Pope during the crusades was worse than Stalin.

Stalin was an amoral cretin believing that whatever he did couldn't be wrong since there was no right and wrong.

So now that you've said to me "Beliefs can be used to justify murder" what exactly can I argue? Yes, it's true. Beliefs can indeed justify unjust violence. But how exactly am I supposed to "refute" that? There's nothing to refute. Yes, tehy do. So what exactly are you trying to say?

Originally Posted by O'nus

If you can tell me how Humanism can be used to justify a cruel act

Well, there is really no book that sets the standards for humanism, so I have no idea.

Originally Posted by O'nus

and even tried predicting this confusion of yours and you still are too stubborn to read it.

Well please forgive me O'nus. Didn't see your prediction. Mayhaps I am simply too durn stoopid.

Originally Posted by O'nus

Why attach a God and something that is easily mis-interpreted to justify evil when something like Humanism is the very thing you are utilizing to do good in?

Because the Bible isn't just a standard. Surely you know the point of the Bible by now! I regret to say this, but there are many atheists/humanists/other people from other religions that are far more moral than most Christians I know of.

Morality is not the point of the Bible, although it is a part of it.

Originally Posted by Isaiah 64:6, King James Version

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

In other words, nothing we do is good by God's standards, and cannot take us to Heaven. That's the point of Christianity. The point of Humanism , boiled down, is a moral/ethical code. This is grand on the physical realm, but something cannot be accomplished by any "good deeds" and that is a pure soul.

Originally Posted by O'nus

So, why use such a flawed system

The Bible is not a system. To be a Christian is to recieve the Holy Spirit into your life, and allow him to be your conscience.

That's the point of God, Jesus, the Bible, and Christianity. Not to simply be a good person. It's far more than that.

Originally Posted by O'nus

So, why use such a flawed system when a much better and concrete one exists?

Ho! Concrete? Yeah right! Humansim is just like everything else. Something that will burn away into the dust. Without some kind of standard, who is to say what is right and wrong? No one person can judge that. Humanism is more shaky than a house in the middle of an earthquake. For now, Humanism is usually decent. But with the times changing for the worst, Humanism will also deteriorate.

[O'nus]

Originally Posted by Noogah

I still don't understand how that's a point. It's a fact, not a point. Yes, people use the NT for violence (on very rare occasions). What are you getting at? Are you trying to demean the NT? Are you trying to say it's dangerous? So far, you're only stating the facts, and not coming to any conclusion.

I have stated my conclusion; you apparently have not read it. Any good you are advocating with the bible can exist independently without the chance of being misconstrued for justifying cruelty.

So now we're discussing beliefs as a whole. Well in that case, put atheism on the list.

Firstly, we were discussing beliefs as a whole from the beginning. You simply kept bringing up the bible because you seemingly cannot think about other belief systems unless they are yours.

Furthermore, the pot shot at Atheism is irrelevant to the topic. Do not try to project onto others what you cannot defend.

Like Spockman said...

What Spockman said is not applicable as it entirely ignores the morale systems an atheist would inevitably have to choose; atheism does not dictate any morality, are you not aware of that? This means that anyone who is Atheist actually "believes" something else. In my case, it is humanism. With that, there is virtually no way you could justify any cruel acts via humanism. If you can tell me how, I would like to see.

The digression with Stalin is also another hope to derail the conversation by projecting onto others what you cannot defend. Stop projecting.

So now that you've said to me "Beliefs can be used to justify murder" what exactly can I argue? Yes, it's true. Beliefs can indeed justify unjust violence. But how exactly am I supposed to "refute" that? There's nothing to refute. Yes, tehy do. So what exactly are you trying to say?

It is very easy. Unfortunately, in the words of Richard Dawkins, "Creationists just do not listen! You cannot debate with that mentality!"

Prove me wrong and be insightful to this point;

You can adhere to the good that you advocate without muddling it up with dogmatic beliefs. This good is known as Humanism.

Well, there is really no book that sets the standards for humanism, so I have no idea.

There are many wondrous texts where you can learn about Humanism. I think what you are looking for is one definitive, inarguable, scripture that does all the thinking for you. Am I right?

+ http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss?ur...manism&x=0&y=0
+ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism

Well please forgive me O'nus. Didn't see your prediction. Mayhaps I am simply too durn stoopid.

If you review the posts, you may see there is actually evidence for that.

Because the Bible isn't just a standard. Surely you know the point of the Bible by now! I regret to say this, but there are many atheists/humanists/other people from other religions that are far more moral than most Christians I know of.

Morality is not the point of the Bible, although it is a part of it.

Right, now, what point of the people can you utilize that could not be utilized by Humanism? The benefit to doing this is that it would not be juxtaposed with dogmatic beliefs. Also, if you add Existentialism to the mix, it becomes much more flourishing. However, it seems that step may be too difficult at this juncture. Let us stick to humanism.

In other words, nothing we do is good by God's standards, and cannot take us to Heaven. That's the point of Christianity. The point of Humanism , boiled down, is a moral/ethical code. This is grand on the physical realm, but something cannot be accomplished by any "good deeds" and that is a pure soul.

Sorry what? Did you just say that nothing can be accomplished via Humanism? Also, Humanism is a moral/ethical code.. yes.. what are you looking for here? It is a good one, and does not need dogmatic beliefs. Perhaps this idea is so alien to you because it does not claim to know everything before giving any explanation..?

The Bible is not a system. To be a Christian is to recieve the Holy Spirit into your life, and allow him to be your conscience.

That's the point of God, Jesus, the Bible, and Christianity. Not to simply be a good person. It's far more than that.

First of all, do not be so pedantic to rely on petty semantics to defend your stance. When I say system, I am referring to the religious routine that you are likely attached to and grew up in.

Secondly, it seems that, in your first sentence, what you are saying is equivalent to;

"To be a Christian.. you let the Holy Spirit do all the thinking for you. Also, never question the bible or God; they are always right no matter what"

Right? Do you know what dogma means..?

Ho! Concrete? Yeah right! Humansim is just like everything else. Something that will burn away into the dust. Without some kind of standard, who is to say what is right and wrong? No one person can judge that. Humanism is more shaky than a house in the middle of an earthquake. For now, Humanism is usually decent. But with the times changing for the worst, Humanism will also deteriorate.

Your ignorance to Humanism is clearly demonstrated here. The power of Humanism, namely Humanist Existentialism, is that it can change and adapt to accept new forms of thinking. This is because the focus of the ideal is on the accepting of flourishing ideals, not the perpetuation of stubborn flawed ones.

Secondly, you are very good at conjecturing random propositions like this but providing absolutely no reasoning or justification.

What you said is just as intellectual as me saying, "Christianity is so wrong and dumb because it is stupid! Lolz, ur ghey!"

Perhaps you could actually provide some substance in your post next time rather than this nonsense. All you are doing is making me speculate that you googled the term, reviewed one sentence, then quickly threw away the idea as something that is not compatible with your Gods way of thinking (because, as we both accept now, you do not think for yourself).

Edit;

For those reading this, because I am confident Noogah is too stubborn to consider, I suggest starting here as a good point for learning this ideal I am advertising;
+ http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ni...ral-political/

~