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    Thread: Archetype Control: An Elegant Tool

    1. #1
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      Archetype Control: An Elegant Tool

      ::Part 1::

      In the following thread, I'll try my best to communicate what Archetype Control is and how it can be used effectively. It will be by no means a complete guide, but it should be a useful introduction to the topic for all those unfamiliar with it.

      Enough fluff, let's get down to business.

      ~ Pre-Reqs ~

      Before we can even start this conversation, we need to establish some definitions and go over a little theory. I highly recommend you acquaint yourself with the idea of a schema. This is because archetypes are a type of schema, a very specific schema, no less.

      ~ Introduction ~

      For the those among you who'd prefer the tl;dr version, schemas serve as a broad way of looking at the world or an idea; a lens, if you will. One that can be switched out with others on the fly to help our brains make automatic decisions on how we should act or think in a given situation. Archetypes are the magnifiers we place within these lenses in order to direct our focus onto a particular object or idea. So, for instance, everyone reading this has an established schema dealing with communication. If we were to focus in on a part of this schema, say a cellular phone, we would immediately be presented with an archetype dealing with that object. We automatically know what a cell phone is used for, where we can find ours, how to work one, etc. It's these automatic associations that allow us to use the phone easily without much thought.

      I hope people are starting to see where this is going. Everything I've stated above can be directly applied to dreams. By drawing on strongly developed archetypes, anyone can achieve precision in dream control quickly and easily. The trick lies in knowing what archetypes you already have, how you can call on them, and how they'll affect your dream. Hopefully, by the time you're done reading this guide, you'll be able to do all three.

      ~ Examples ~

      A great way of explaining Archetype Control is through examples.

      I'll start by explaining how I fly:

      For four years, I was fairly addicted to an MMO entitled City of Heroes/Villains. The game, as you can imagine, entails taking the role of super-powered entity and attempting to keep the peace or bring about the destruction of everything. Obviously, there are several powers that allow the user to quickly travel through the world, namely flight, teleportation, super speed, and super jump. For flight, a player would click on a toggle button that could either be on or off, and turning it on would immediately lift your character from the ground and give you free range of motion through the skies.

      When I dream, all I have to do is click that button in order to start flying. More accurately, I emulate what it feels like to hit that button, no keyboard or visualization required. The steps are as follows:

      1. Call on the CoH schema in order to put me in the correct frame of mind. - This can be done simply by recalling what it's like to be playing the game.

      2. Focus on the flight archetype and everything that entails. - I accomplish this by directing my attention to one particular aspect of the game.

      3. Emulate hitting the button that turns flight on. - Think clicking on a particular command, icon, or link. They're all distinct in their own way, and the one I shoot for here is very specific, but still easy for me to do.

      4. Let the archetype take care of the rest. - It's as simple as that.

      This is all very fluid, intuitive, and doesn't take any extensive thought whatsoever. More than that, it's reliable because the archetype I've already ingrained into my psyche (through hours of repetition) does everything for me. I simply need to set it into motion.

      Movies, video games, and anime all lend themselves well to this form of control. I myself make use of various powers you'd find in anime and video games all the time. From DBZ style energy blasts to Bleach inspired power-ups to whipping out a gun that creates portals, it all falls under Archetype Control.

      So, too, do 'techniques' like controlling your world via cell-phone, asking DCs to do tasks for you, and even the heralded belief method. If you have a firm grasp on what an archetype is, and how it works, these statements should be fairly easy to confirm on your own, but I'll go over them in the next installment. Just in case.

      ______________


      Hopefully this has been enough to cover the basics and explain what Archetype Control actually is. If something isn't clear, please let me know, and I'll be sure to address it when I get around to releasing the next section of this guide.
      Last edited by Mzzkc; 09-24-2010 at 04:33 AM.

    2. #2
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      ::Part 2::

      ~ Common Discoveries ~

      I think it's about time I had a disclaimer:

      Archetype Control is by no means a new form of dream manipulation and has likely been around since LDing began, with new generations throughout the ages uncovering their own pieces to the puzzle. If one frequents these forums at all, then one knows threads proclaiming the discovery a great new control method pop up all the time. Personally, I think this is a wonderful thing.

      However, the reason I'm bringing it to light now is because these discoveries are only parts of a whole. Separate, they're useless to everyone but the people who found them. Together, they paint a picture everyone can look at and understand.

      What is that picture? None other than a powerful form of control that can be adapted to do anything reliably and easily.

      Each discovery is a personal victory, one in which the oneironaut has succeeded in finding a strong personal archetype he can use to fulfill his goals. And when it comes to Archetype Control, everything needs to be a personal revelation. It's up to you, the dreamer, to recognize your strong personal archetypes and figure out a way to use them in order to achieve a desired outcome. Fortunately, you have knowledge these others did not. Knowledge of the bigger picture. Knowledge of the mechanics behind your future breakthrough. Knowledge enough to seek, within yourself, the solutions to your problems.

      ~ Implementations ~

      The steps to utilize basic Archetype Control are surprisingly straightforward:

      1. Recognize your goal.
      2. Find an existing personal archetype you feel would bring about the desired results.
      3. Get Lucid.
      4. Call on the schema the archetype lies under, using basic recall skills.
      5. Focus in on the archetype in question.
      6. Set the archetype in motion.

      As you can see, that leaves a lot of room for creative implementation. The important thing is that you find a way to set the archetype in motion. Chanting Kamehameha in the proper stance, for instance, might be a great way for a DBZ fan to set in motion the act of firing off a powerful energy blast. Or maybe you need to flick your wand in just the right way when casting Wingardium Leviosa.

      Finding the right motions, sounds, or feelings that will invoke the associations needed to thrust your archetype into action is of critical importance. And sometimes, you need to figure this stuff out on the fly. To illustrate my point, light levels seem to be a difficult thing for most people to adjust at will. I myself ran into this problem during a lucid awhile back, so I stopped and thought about all the ways I knew to make things brighter IRL. Oddly enough, the TI-83 graphing calculator came to mind, with its ability to change the contrast of the screen with a few button presses. Deciding to at least give it a try, I pulled one out of my pocket and hit the right buttons, thinking of the world around me as the screen. Lo and behold, despite my reservations, the world brightened with every push of the button.

      This is just one example of a not-so-standard implementation of Archetype Control. That kind of approach is required to accomplish more complex goals using this method, but practically speaking it won't be necessary for most routine tasks. If your archetypes are strong, and chosen well, putting them into action will be a simple matter of emulation.

      ______________


      ::Part 3::

      ~ Building New Archetypes / How To Do Anything ~

      After you've familiarized yourself with the archetypes you already have, you might be wondering what else there is to do. Well, the wonderful thing about archetypes is you can make new ones designed to fulfill a specific task. A task that those you have now aren't suited for. Very simply, this is done through conditioning.

      There are tons of ways to condition your mind and create new, powerful associations. For example, video games persist as an excellent way to develop new archetypes. Why? Because their repetitive nature and pervasive presentation allow associations to develop naturally and easily. Gamers learn that if they hit this button, something cool happens, and those results become intuitive for them, second nature. And as you'd expect, these simple actions can be directly translated to dreams using methods we've already discussed.

      Beyond video games lies the realm of music, videos, and daydreams. These are all useful tools in creating strong associations IWL, but it's important to note they only become powerful through repetition. Try listening to the same song over and over again, keeping your goal, you end result, firmly in mind. Or watch your favorite television/movie characters perform the same actions throughout the video, over and over again. And for those times when you've go nothing better to do, visualize your task throughout the day, ingraining that method completely within your mind's eye.

      Remember, these are just a handful of ways you can build archetypes to suit your needs. There are tons of ways to create the associations needed for precise dream control. Sometimes you just have to get creative. The important thing to remember is that you prescribe meaning to your archetype building. Don't just do it blindly; really get into it. That's always how I've gotten my best results.

      But it gets better.

      Waking life isn't the only place you can develop new Archetypes. As it turns out, if you figure out how to do something cool in a dream, and are able to reproduce those results, you've got the makings of an intensely powerful Archetype right at your fingertips. Archetypes built in dreams, though hard to create if you aren't lucid often, can be incredibly useful. Moreso, I've found that dream-built Archetypes take significantly less time to develop than the traditional sort as the schemata driving the dream-built ones are already there.

      To build up the association, the same rules apply: repetition and meaning. Draw from the right schemata (there usually isn't just one for these) and perform the action you first used to initiate control. Eventually, this action alone will be enough to control the dream in the desired way.

      ~ The Belief Myth Explained ~

      I touched on this issue in a fairly recent post. I've provided an edited version below for the purpose of this guide.

      Quote Originally Posted by Mzzkc View Post
      . . .dreams are not built around [belief, they are built around schematic and archetypal associations]. . .The reason [belief] works at all (and it doesn't always) is because calling upon that feeling. . .call[s] upon a broad schema which will bring about its own unfocused consequences. Sometimes [belief] brings about action, or change, but how many times have you [believed something would happen] in life only to be utterly disappointed? All those instances are going to hurt the effectiveness of [control through belief], sometimes dramatically.

      On the flip side, if you've always gotten exactly what you've expected out of life, [belief] is going to work wonderfully for you, at least as far as making something happen. Still, without proper focus. . .whatever does occur will not happen the way you actually want it to. The real-world example that comes to mind is of a dreamer who wanted to create a pyramid, so he believed, expected with all his heart, a pyramid would appear before his eyes. Sure enough, big building blocks tumbled down from the sky. They toppled over one another to form a kind of lopsided triangle that was not at all what he wanted. [This] lack of focus proved to be the difference between an adventure into an ancient, mysterious tomb and something weird to look at.
      The quote does a good job of summing up how belief and expectation fit into the tools we're working with here. As it turns out, belief is just one big unfocused schemata. It has its uses, yes, but your results will vary, even when combining it with more focused Archetypes and Schemata.

      ~ References ~

      - http://www.dreamviews.com/f14/nature...control-57283/

      The Cusp's original work which sparked my interest and subsequent research into Archetypes, Schemata, and how dreams operated at an atomic level.

      - http://www.dreamviews.com/f14/master...-dreams-48095/

      BillyBob's foray into teaching the DV community about Schemata. We disagree on some fundamentals (concerning primarily belief) and his end result is much broader than the focus of this guide (it also require a major shift in how you perceive things), but it's still an excellent resource.

      - http://www.dreamviews.com/f14/infini...reaming-46571/

      Another one of BillyBob's masterpieces. It also touches on Schemata and how to make use of it. I believe it's a precursor to his “Mastering Your Dreams” guide.
      Last edited by Xei; 03-09-2011 at 12:15 AM.

    3. #3
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      I've had a couple lucids where I hijacked cars and after awhile it turned into grand theft auto san andreas because I put in like a thousand hours on that game

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      I like where this is going, especially the part about dispelling the myth of belief. Looking forward to the rest.
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      Quote Originally Posted by The Cusp View Post
      I like where this is going, especially the part about dispelling the myth of belief. Looking forward to the rest.
      Do you want me to run the next part by you before putting it up? The whole basis of this guide is founded upon ideas you developed awhile back, which I've since explored on my own, so I'd like you to have a say in the final piece if you'll have it.

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      No need, you're doing good so far. But if you want to, I'll have a look.

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      This thread is made of awesome and win. Many thanks, Mzzkc.

      Click the sig for my Dream Journal
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      Quote Originally Posted by Mario92 View Post
      This thread is made of awesome and win. Many thanks, Mzzkc.
      I figure it'll help some people and definitely be a good reference for those with whom I discuss the topic, but I'm also expecting it to go over a lot of heads, despite the fact it's so damn useful. We'll see, neh?

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      I never knew that it had a name but I have always used this type of control. I even write stories where the characters have certain powers that I can then use in a dream because I can associate them with a character from my writing. I fly by thinking of DBZ and i have done some acrobatic stuff by using a KH2 reaction command.
      I accept that my reality is always a dream so if something changes I know I'm right.

      "Later that day......innocent group hugs became an orgy"
      -erible :3

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      I haven't got time at the moment to read every word, but I read part of it, and I like where this is going. Important too that you note to activate a schema simply by thinking about it, and you went from general to specific. Basically this is how the mind works all the time, but because you're aware of it you can direct it to produce a desired effect.

      To those who aren't 100% solid on how the mind uses schemas, LaBerge gives an excellect explanation in EWOLD chapter 5. I reccomend this to anyone who hasn't read it.
      Last edited by Supernova; 09-27-2010 at 02:17 AM.

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      Part 2 is up. Part 3 might take a little while to finish, due to a recent influx of homework. As usual, I'm open for questions.
      Mario92 likes this.

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      I think I read somewhere that archetype control can get a bit tricky because it is all based on associations. Some people say that if you call on one thing you might get something negative from it and instead of shooting a kamahameha Frieza shows up and destroys everything.
      I accept that my reality is always a dream so if something changes I know I'm right.

      "Later that day......innocent group hugs became an orgy"
      -erible :3

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      That happens when you use broad schemas without focusing in on a particular archetype. I'll discuss this further in the next installment, but by honing in on a single archetype of considerable strength, you're almost guaranteed consistent and predictable results. Yes, related detail might worm its way into the dream, but I'm hoping people are smart enough to figure out good archetypes to use as opposed to crappy ones that'll toss them into a nightmare. Unless of course you all want a nightmare; they can be quite a bit of fun.

      I'll also be covering ways you can fine tune your archetypes in the next part, which can be used to eliminate, or at least greatly diminish, any negative associations with a particular archetype.

      Oh, and I'm taking your example to be a hyperbole, since I assume you know how silly it is.
      Last edited by Mzzkc; 09-28-2010 at 04:51 AM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Waterknight View Post
      I think I read somewhere that archetype control can get a bit tricky because it is all based on associations. Some people say that if you call on one thing you might get something negative from it and instead of shooting a kamahameha Frieza shows up and destroys everything.
      That's exactly what can happen. I tried to use psychokenisis to part some trees like grass using my hands from a distance. It activated my archetype of hand powers and I ended up with Iron Man like lights shooting from my hands instead. No power blasts, just lights illuminating stuff from my hands. Not what i was going for, but it was still pretty cool.

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      Just realized that I haven't actually posted to this thread. I find this interesting, mostly because it's so similar to the techniques I've used for a long time now. Archetype control is a good name for it.

      In my own dreams, I've found it useful to create a character that I'll more or less default to during the more interesting, potentially scary dreams. And so, I tend to appear as Lucifer. It's a lot of fun, and has some cool side effects: invulnerability and energy manipulation, for instance. So it's possible to create archetypes that are so ingrained within your subconscious that you'll use them involuntarily.

      I think part of the reason that this particular schema has been so effective, for me, is that I actually created my online persona around the character archetype. Around the time that I joined DV, I was reading Mike Carey's Lucifer, and had recently dreamed about being the character. So now, if I spend a half hour a day on the forums, on average, as "Samael", then I'm solidifying the archetype within my mind. The fact that I'm thinking about dreams at the time (it's a forum about dreaming, after all) only exacerbates the effect.

      Quote Originally Posted by Mzzkc
      One that can be switched out with others on the fly to help our brains make automatic decisions on how we should act or think in a given situation.
      Which apparently translates to: if you're dreaming, go ahead and be a complete sociopath. No one will mind.

      Quote Originally Posted by Mzzkc
      And sometimes, you need to figure this stuff out on the fly.
      That's always fun. I'm thinking of the time that all the DCs around me were turning into zombies, and I decided that if I pulled out their souls and shoved them back in, it would somehow cure them.

      The rationale doesn't need to make sense, you just need to believe it. And hey, convincing yourself to use dream-logic shouldn't be hard. People are tricking themselves out of lucids all the time.

      Quote Originally Posted by Mzzkc
      ...as opposed to crappy ones that'll toss them into a nightmare. Unless of course you all want a nightmare; they can be quite a bit of fun.
      Silent Hill is full of wonderful archetypes that can help you with this. Blood overflows from the white acrylic tub, spilling over the side and staining the tile floor...

      I pick up a half-eaten copy of a book by Neil Gaiman, and decide this is all his fault.

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      [QUOTE=Samael;1542129]In my own dreams, I've found it useful to create a character that I'll more or less default to during the more interesting, potentially scary dreams. And so, I tend to appear as Lucifer. It's a lot of fun, and has some cool side effects: invulnerability and energy manipulation, for instance. So it's possible to create archetypes that are so ingrained within your subconscious that you'll use them involuntarily. QUOTE]

      I do this I Write a story with a character loosly based on myself and give tham any powers I wish to have in my dreams. If I want to have a power I just pull from my characters' abilities.

      O and Mzzkc it is quite a bit of an exageration but I said that because I of what Ive read on here. I use this type of control (as mentioned above with original characters and existing stories such as harry potter or DBZ) and I have never had problems with it I get what i want or I dont get anything at all then i just switch to another method for that one particular task.

      Oh and also it is possible to use several archetypes at once. You can cast a spell using the ancient language from eragon and then cast a spell with a harry potter wand all while dominating minds by using jedi mind trick.
      Last edited by Waterknight; 10-01-2010 at 11:38 PM.
      I accept that my reality is always a dream so if something changes I know I'm right.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Waterknight
      You can cast a spell using the ancient language from eragon and then cast a spell with a harry potter wand all while dominating minds by using jedi mind trick.
      For sure. When I'm in the middle of a Harry Potter dream, I'll usually switch out to force powers when I run out of spells. Seriously, try remembering more than four useful spells during a dream.

      You're missing a "[/", btw.

      I pick up a half-eaten copy of a book by Neil Gaiman, and decide this is all his fault.

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      OMG this was in stephen laberge's book!
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    19. #19
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      Quote Originally Posted by Waterknight View Post
      Oh and also it is possible to use several archetypes at once. You can cast a spell using the ancient language from eragon and then cast a spell with a harry potter wand all while dominating minds by using jedi mind trick.
      I would classify that as somewhere between basic and intermediate archetype control. The advanced stuff requires you to use multiple, abstract archetypes in conjunction with one another in order to achieve a single outcome.

      On a related note, I actually managed to cure myself of some general anxiety issues using advanced archetype control IWL, so the applications of this extend beyond dreams, and it can be used for much more than what you've all been doing with it insofar.

      Unfortunately, I won't be able to cover anything beside the basics (advanced stuff can get really abstract, and these abstractions are often impossible to communicate effectively, since they're different from person to person), but I will be able to outline the bare bones and sinew on which everything else is built. This way, anyone who wants to delve deeper has a solid foundation.

      All that said, if people insist on only using this form of control for powers and what have you, that's alright too. XP

      Quote Originally Posted by matthew123 View Post
      OMG this was in stephen laberge's book!
      I haven't been able to read it because the one copy my university owns is always checked out. =/

      Could you (or someone) give a synopsis of what he talked about? Besides what Supernova has already mentioned, of course.
      Last edited by Mzzkc; 10-02-2010 at 06:24 AM.

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      hmm basically archetypes are conditioned responses or expectations associated with things? like for example, mario blocks appeared in my dream and i instantly knew that if i hit one with my head a coin would pop out. doesnt this go off the same principle of reality checks? like how we expect something to not work and when the opposite happens in a dream it wakes us up?
      Anyways i think i have the gist of it. if im following its all about conditioned expectations :/ but if thats true couldnt you form your own archetypes?

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      Am currently Learning Effective Dream control. yes, i suck that much at it. Suggestions are Welcome...

    21. #21
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      Quote Originally Posted by Skydreamer707 View Post
      hmm basically archetypes are conditioned responses or expectations associated with things? like for example, mario blocks appeared in my dream and i instantly knew that if i hit one with my head a coin would pop out. doesnt this go off the same principle of reality checks? like how we expect something to not work and when the opposite happens in a dream it wakes us up?
      Anyways i think i have the gist of it. if im following its all about conditioned expectations :/ but if thats true couldnt you form your own archetypes?
      You've pretty much got the basics. And yes, new archetypes can be formed via conditioning. The next part will try to explain how that and everything else ties together and why simply expecting something to happen out of the blue isn't always the best way to do things.

      Obviously, this isn't the easiest concept to explain, or understand for that matter, but it's good to get questions like this so I know what to focus on in revisions.

    22. #22
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      I think I must have used this type of control unknowingly last night. my friend told me she wanted to jump on a trampoline so I used the method of finding stuff by turning a corner. I turned down an alley and at the end we found a bunch of mattresses.

      I looked at her and said sorry but then I said come on lets jump on the bed it will work. As we jumped the pile of matresses turned into a trampoline
      I accept that my reality is always a dream so if something changes I know I'm right.

      "Later that day......innocent group hugs became an orgy"
      -erible :3

      Goals go into space [] play blitzball from FFX []

    23. #23
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      Nice article, thanks Mzzkc. Can we hope for another article anytime soon?
      It always amuses me when so-called skeptics are using words "subconscious" and "science" in one sentence, and when it suddenly turns out they believe in God.
      Dream LandDream CartographyLucidity via Computer Games

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      Great article man. Interestingly enough, before reading this I have already used similar techniques. Performing attacks or techniques from anime/games etc is my favorite way of accomplishing dream tasks

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      Quote Originally Posted by Phantasos View Post
      Nice article, thanks Mzzkc. Can we hope for another article anytime soon?
      Thanks!

      I'll usually post a guide if the subject needs to be addressed, but I still need to finish this one as it is. XP

      Quote Originally Posted by omgitsadam View Post
      Great article man. Interestingly enough, before reading this I have already used similar techniques. Performing attacks or techniques from anime/games etc is my favorite way of accomplishing dream tasks
      Haha, yeah, people tend to figure the method out on their own quite frequently, but knowing the details behind the magic enables them to do new and exciting things. =)

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