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    1. #1
      Dreamer deXtrous's Avatar
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      What time to Astral Project?

      Hey all, so I know you're meant to WILD in the morning after a good sleep because the REM cycles are still fresh (or something like that ) but how does it go for Astral Projection? The two methods are basically exactly the same but somehow astral projections are external from you own constructs of your minds' creations whereas lucid dreams are not.

      So what time do you guys like to Astral Project? When are you most successful?
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      I've never tried it, but would it not make sense that whatever time is best for you to WILD would then be best to AP?
      Bollocks.

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      Dreamer deXtrous's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Delphinus View Post
      I've never tried it, but would it not make sense that whatever time is best for you to WILD would then be best to AP?
      Yes but that would be suggesting that AP's are just lucid dreams? How would I be able to tell the difference if I did the exact same method, assuming there is a difference.
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      Yatta! Advantageous Noodle's Avatar
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      I want to read a guide for this stuff. Is there one on the forum that someone can point me to? I don't feel like searching too hard...please...
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      Quote Originally Posted by Advantageous Noodle View Post
      I want to read a guide for this stuff. Is there one on the forum that someone can point me to? I don't feel like searching too hard...please...
      Your best bet would probably be Naiya's AP tutorial, which has gained plenty of respece since it was created~

    6. #6
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      I find the best time is when I'm on the toilet the morning after a hot curry.

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      Overseer of oneirons Phantasos's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by deXtrous View Post
      So what time do you guys like to Astral Project? When are you most successful?
      The real problem is to distinguish WILD from AP. For now, no one could tell me how to do this. Maybe you know?

      Personally, I think it is the same, so any time good for WILD will do for AP.

    8. #8
      Dreamer deXtrous's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Phantasos View Post
      The real problem is to distinguish WILD from AP. For now, no one could tell me how to do this. Maybe you know?

      Personally, I think it is the same, so any time good for WILD will do for AP.
      There is a difference, Lucid dreaming is dreaming within your own mind, while astral projection is actual conscious travel within the astral plane. Although in dreams you can be conscious it's very close to the astral and if you learn to concentrate, it is very easy to move out of your dream into the astral reality, although they are both pretty much in the same place. But in the astral you are aware of the astral as opposed to being aware of only the dream. If that makes sense.

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    9. #9
      Overseer of oneirons Phantasos's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by deXtrous View Post
      There is a difference, Lucid dreaming is dreaming within your own mind, while astral projection is actual conscious travel within the astral plane. Although in dreams you can be conscious it's very close to the astral and if you learn to concentrate, it is very easy to move out of your dream into the astral reality, although they are both pretty much in the same place. But in the astral you are aware of the astral as opposed to being aware of only the dream. If that makes sense.
      -Blackheart
      I know definitions. The problem is that it seems no one can give clear guidelines to distinguish one from another. The methods are essentially the same, so how one knows did he AP or WILD? For example, I used some method which is used both by AP'ers and WILD'ers, so how do I know where I end up - within my mind or in the "astral plane"? I do feel differences between DILDs and WILDs, but how do I know if it is "astral plane" or just "dream plane"?

    10. #10
      Dreamer deXtrous's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Phantasos View Post
      I know definitions. The problem is that it seems no one can give clear guidelines to distinguish one from another. The methods are essentially the same, so how one knows did he AP or WILD? For example, I used some method which is used both by AP'ers and WILD'ers, so how do I know where I end up - within my mind or in the "astral plane"? I do feel differences between DILDs and WILDs, but how do I know if it is "astral plane" or just "dream plane"?
      That's exactly what I want to know
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    11. #11
      Overseer of oneirons Phantasos's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by deXtrous View Post
      That's exactly what I want to know
      Personally, I've came to conclusion that WILDs and APs are the same thing which have several interpretations. I.e. it is either WILDs and APs are both in "dream plane", or they are in "astral plane" whatever you believe more, but they are not different phenomena as those folk who believe both in WILDs and APs claim.

    12. #12
      Dreamer deXtrous's Avatar
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      Here's some information I found on this forum,

      Quote Originally Posted by juroara View Post
      I understand where you are coming from! astral projection does at first sound really scary

      to answer your question, its actually hard to AP unless you mean to. if you are WILDing and mean to lucid dream, then that is what will happen. The common differences are - in a traditional AP you will feel yourself lift or split from your body. In the lucid experience, you zoom, spiral your way, fall or wake in a dream. You can actually stop the experience if you are uncomfortable with it.

      Besides, WILDing isn't even the best way to be lucid, and traditionally it is an astral projection technique. Basically, a lucid dream from a WILD is a failed astral projection

      it might help you to understand astral projection better, and how dreams relate

      when we are lucid, we are aware that we are dreaming. but when we astral project, we are aware that we have separated from our physical body. But in both scenarios we have separated from our physical body.

      astral projectors believe dreams take place in the astral. So a dream is a type of OBE to begin with. your dream is like a private world in the astral, where you are safe from everyone else. or rather, where everyone else is safe from you. outside of your little dream bubble, is the rest of the astral world.

      we dream in our isolated little worlds since birth. so its only natural that it feels wrong to leave it. outside, you'll be interacting with other beings in the astral. some are heavenly, others not so nice.

      but the same is true for earth. everyday you walk outside and mingle with strangers. some are nice and others aren't. some are rapists! some are serial killers! yet most of us don't live in absolute fear that every stranger we meet is out to get us. for the most part, we get along. We know there are bad people out there, but we take our chances anyways because its worth the risk.

      mingling with astral beings more scary? think of it this way, someone on earth can KILL you. But no one in the astral can.

      why are our dreams isolated astral worlds? its a two fold protection. one, to protect us from that bigger astral world - where anything goes. And two, to protect the astral from us! Think about it. How many people have violent dreams? If they don't understand that beings in the astral are conscious, whats going to stop them from being violent and causing trouble? were like children being tossed in a playroom because were just not grown up enough to run around in a city.

      the astral has its own protection for violent minds. karma. but the karma in the astral isn't slow like ours, taking years to manifest. It'll manifest right then and there. If you mean to hurt someone in the astral, then someone means to hurt you. If you mean to be friends with someone in the astral, then someone means to be your friend! Like attracts like in the astral.

      a lot of people have been scared of astral projecting because they perceive it as dealing with death. but I think understanding that dreams are also apart of this astral realm helps to change that perspective. or maybe it does the opposite, makes you think of dreaming as dying every night



      why would anyone want to astral project?

      imagine visiting another planet, and actually conversing with real beings. don't gotta worry about gas, food or hotel money. and the best part, you return safely back to your bed. at least, thats the appeal to me. can't say much more, I've never actually APd
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    13. #13
      Overseer of oneirons Phantasos's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by juroara View Post
      imagine visiting another planet, and actually conversing with real beings. don't gotta worry about gas, food or hotel money. and the best part, you return safely back to your bed. at least, thats the appeal to me. can't say much more, I've never actually APd
      That says it all. Someone who never APed tells how APs are different from WILDs.

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      Dreamer deXtrous's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Phantasos View Post
      That says it all. Someone who never APed tells how APs are different from WILDs.
      People who've never travelled to the moon can still describe what it is like, right? much less gravitational pull, no oxygen, etc. This is no different. Disregard that part of the post and it actually a very accurate comparison. Other people (who have years of AP experience) have told me similar ways of looking at it (link), but this is just put much more coherently. By leaving that part of the quote in it hasn't made any difference as to the validity of the post.
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    15. #15
      Overseer of oneirons Phantasos's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by deXtrous View Post
      People who've never travelled to the moon can still describe what it is like, right? much less gravitational pull, no oxygen, etc. This is no different. Disregard that part of the post and it actually a very accurate comparison. Other people (who have years of AP experience) have told me similar ways of looking at it (link), but this is just put much more coherently. By leaving that part of the quote in it hasn't made any difference as to the validity of the post.
      I doubt you can compare it to people describing it with Moon. Those who do this are basing on a big factual research which you can easily verify if you need or just bother to. When we approach such areas as dreaming, occult, magick or psychology, we have to be extra careful about interpretations and claims. At least, if one is making claims, he should be able to back it up with his own experience.

      But well.. Actually, this text does not really make the case of distinguishing WILDs from APs (if we are to consider it like different things). The most of the text is pure theorizing on what astral is but not really helping to distinguish it from lucid dreams. You can talk with different, pretty intelligent beings in LDs as well, and stories about karma does not really help to our purpose. The only two things which one find in this text which give hints to our question are:

      Quote Originally Posted by juroara
      to answer your question, its actually hard to AP unless you mean to. if you are WILDing and mean to lucid dream, then that is what will happen. The common differences are - in a traditional AP you will feel yourself lift or split from your body. In the lucid experience, you zoom, spiral your way, fall or wake in a dream. You can actually stop the experience if you are uncomfortable with it.
      So one, who never APed (and probably not WILDed) tells us the differences between entering AP and WILD. Well, even if we take this, the problem is that there are a lot of dreamers who use WILD techs based on the OBE but still consider it as lucid dream, just entered using this particular type of WILD techs (for example, one can try to roll out of body, or fly out of body). We also should remember that brain can easily recreate OBE, so how one is going to check if he really flyed out of body, or it was dream? We have to where we've began.

      when we are lucid, we are aware that we are dreaming. but when we astral project, we are aware that we have separated from our physical body. But in both scenarios we have separated from our physical body.

      Actually, here poster is saying that both AP and LD are the same (even if he did not mean to). S(he) says:
      (1) In LD we know we dream
      (2) In AP we know we separated from body
      (3) Both in LD and AP we separated from our body
      Well, the logical conclusion will be that LD = AP (as we now have only one criterion to differentiate LDs from APs.

      So, all-in-all, this text does not really helps. At the best, it strengthens the idea that WILDs and APs are diferent labels for one phenomenon.

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      Yes but that would be suggesting that AP's are just lucid dreams? How would I be able to tell the difference if I did the exact same method, assuming there is a difference.
      good point. I think they are the same to an extent. but they do have qualities that separate them.

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      Quote Originally Posted by [user-name] View Post
      good point. I think they are the same to an extent. but they do have qualities that separate them.
      What are these qualities? Do you know it?

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      Actually, here poster is saying that both AP and LD are the same (even if he did not mean to). S(he) says:
      (1) In LD we know we dream
      (2) In AP we know we separated from body
      (3) Both in LD and AP we separated from our body
      Well, the logical conclusion will be that LD = AP (as we now have only one criterion to differentiate LDs from APs.
      that's like saying this:
      apples and oranges are the same.
      (1) apples grow on trees and we can eat them
      (2) Oranges grow on trees and we can eat them
      (3) they are both juicy and delicious.
      so we can conclude that they are the same.

      No. they are both fruits, and they have lots of similarities, but they are obviously different enough to be classified differently. thats how I see AP'ing and LD'ing


      I don't think I have enough experience astral projecting to give you a credible answer, but I lucid dream, and from what I've read there are a few details that arent quite matched up.

      -during a lucid dream you can exert conscious control over virtually everything.

      -the presence of "entities" vs. "dream characters" in both

      - lucid dreams are said to possibly "trigger" lucid dreams.

      I'm not saying that they are completely different. I do believe that they are very closely related.

    19. #19
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      While I haven't AP'd before and had only one LD, I think the explanation that [user-name] gave is along the lines of what I think the differences between APing and LDing is. Of course, I can't prove anything
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    20. #20
      Dreamer deXtrous's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Phantasos View Post
      I doubt you can compare it to people describing it with Moon. Those who do this are basing on a big factual research which you can easily verify if you need or just bother to. When we approach such areas as dreaming, occult, magick or psychology, we have to be extra careful about interpretations and claims. At least, if one is making claims, he should be able to back it up with his own experience.
      Well as you said in the 'spiritual world' there is no actual factual evidence of anything, just peoples personal experience, but who's to say that these experiences aren't actually factual in their essence? Sure there will be skeptics but I just can't see this guy (who I quoted above) going on and making this stuff up out of the blue. I think he must've done his research from other peoples' experiences, who have no reason to be making anything up, and built up his own 'theory' as to the difference between the two, and as I said and provided with a link he wasn't the only one claiming the same thing. The post I linked to on the bodybuilding forum came from a guy who has been APing at will for literally dozens of years.


      But well.. Actually, this text does not really make the case of distinguishing WILDs from APs (if we are to consider it like different things). The most of the text is pure theorizing on what astral is but not really helping to distinguish it from lucid dreams. You can talk with different, pretty intelligent beings in LDs as well, and stories about karma does not really help to our purpose. The only two things which one find in this text which give hints to our question are:
      Here is a line which sums it up quite neatly (from the quote above)

      astral projectors believe dreams take place in the astral. So a dream is a type of OBE to begin with. your dream is like a private world in the astral, where you are safe from everyone else. or rather, where everyone else is safe from you. outside of your little dream bubble, is the rest of the astral world.


      So one, who never APed (and probably not WILDed) tells us the differences between entering AP and WILD. Well, even if we take this, the problem is that there are a lot of dreamers who use WILD techs based on the OBE but still consider it as lucid dream, just entered using this particular type of WILD techs (for example, one can try to roll out of body, or fly out of body). We also should remember that brain can easily recreate OBE, so how one is going to check if he really flyed out of body, or it was dream? We have to where we've began.

      when we are lucid, we are aware that we are dreaming. but when we astral project, we are aware that we have separated from our physical body. But in both scenarios we have separated from our physical body.

      Actually, here poster is saying that both AP and LD are the same (even if he did not mean to). S(he) says:
      (1) In LD we know we dream
      (2) In AP we know we separated from body
      (3) Both in LD and AP we separated from our body
      Well, the logical conclusion will be that LD = AP (as we now have only one criterion to differentiate LDs from APs.
      So, all-in-all, this text does not really helps. At the best, it strengthens the idea that WILDs and APs are diferent labels for one phenomenon.
      I think he was pointing out that AP's and Lucid Dreams both occur on the Astral Plane, just in an AP you are aware of this plane and you can explore the boundaries of the astral plane accordingly, but in a LD you can only go so far as where your mind will take you, in your own little bubble, because that is what you believe. I think everything concerning the spiritual side of life first requires you to believe in it before anything can actually be achieved, which is why I want to believe Astral Projection and Lucid Dreaming as two different types of OBE's so I can at least give myself the opportunity to experience them subjectively.
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      I want to believe Astral Projection and Lucid Dreaming as two different types of OBE's so I can at least give myself the opportunity to experience them subjectively.
      well i think the experience and technique* itself is more important in trying to experience the two, than simply what time you choose to attempt them.

      *there might be a more accurate word to place there but I wasn't sure of what

    22. #22
      Overseer of oneirons Phantasos's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by [user-name] View Post
      that's like saying this:
      apples and oranges are the same.
      (1) apples grow on trees and we can eat them
      (2) Oranges grow on trees and we can eat them
      (3) they are both juicy and delicious.
      so we can conclude that they are the same.
      No. they are both fruits, and they have lots of similarities, but they are obviously different enough to be classified differently. thats how I see AP'ing and LD'ing
      (as we now have only one criterion to differentiate LDs from APs)
      This text provided us little criteria to base on. I am still would be happy if someone could give clear list of properties which can help to one easily to distinguish WILD from AP. Until such list it is easier to consider WILDs and APs the same phenomenon just for the sake of simplicity.

      I don't think I have enough experience astral projecting to give you a credible answer, but I lucid dream, and from what I've read there are a few details that arent quite matched up.

      -during a lucid dream you can exert conscious control over virtually everything.
      -the presence of "entities" vs. "dream characters" in both
      Well, in my personal experiences I had encounters with "entities" in DILDs (look DGs are fine example, you can easily find dozens of examples when ppl talk about strange beings in their LDs). As for first item, actually the more dream is stabilized, the harder it may be to use "direct control". It does not really prove or deny existing of "astral plane".

      - lucid dreams are said to possibly "trigger" lucid dreams.
      Not really understood this one.

      I'm not saying that they are completely different. I do believe that they are very closely related.
      My current opinion is that APs and WILDs are two labels for one phenomenon. WILDs, in my personal opinion, indeed feel somewhat different from DILDs (maybe to different hemispheres actitivity).

    23. #23
      Dreamer deXtrous's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by [user-name] View Post
      well i think the experience and technique* itself is more important in trying to experience the two, than simply what time you choose to attempt them.

      *there might be a more accurate word to place there but I wasn't sure of what
      But if the technique is exactly the same for WILD's and Astral Projections then what left is there to differentiate between the two [for inducing them] but your own will?
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      that's why I put the footnote, i didn't mean the induction technique necessarily.

    25. #25
      Dreamer deXtrous's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by [user-name] View Post
      that's why I put the footnote, i didn't mean the induction technique necessarily.
      Well either way it really did not make much sense to me at all, feel free to rephrase it but I'm going to bed now I'll be back to this thread first thing tomorrow morning

      I actually wanted to make a WILD vs AP thread but I was scared of flames, for instance, 'oh great another one of these threads' but coincidently the debate came about in this thread anyway
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