Homemade EEG

**argo** · 05-01-2011 02:18 AM

I'm also on the quest for cheap EEG for use in lucid dreaming applications.

I'm playing with the Neurosky mindwave and I'm not all that impressed either. I can't even really see a difference between when I focus or relax, the response seems random and if I clip earpiece to one finger and put another finger against the head sensor the results are pretty much the same as if I wear it on my head which makes me a bit dubious of their tech.

I'm looking at the Emotiv now, and you say you've been working with it with some success, is it worth the money? Are you getting verifiable results that are not just randomly generated to appear you are doing something?

I would think with the number of sensors on their headset it would be significantly better than Neurosky's single sensor if it actually works as they say. I'm puzzled that Neurosky doesn't just make a "stereo" head set with right and left sensor pairs to improve the quality of the collected data.

**apsinvo** · 05-01-2011 01:58 PM

argo - My findings with the neurosky are the same - I sent it back. The Emotiv is very good, but pricey. If you want the raw EEG output you need the researcher's version - $750. It IS worth the money, but I suggest for that price you think hard about what you want it for. Fortunately, I have several purposes for it and things I want to test. If, as some people I have spoken with, they want to capture some sleep and an LD, then once you've slept in it a few times and marvelled at the EEG output, you're left with an expensive 2nd hand toy with no real use. Make sure you have several long term projects you can do with it so that you don't end up in that position!

**Mental** · 05-01-2011 07:01 PM

apsinvo,

I can't help you with your project, but I can tell you I've wanted to try the same thing for at least 10 years. The cost has always held me back. It's always fun to find like minded people, especially with a goal that is such a niche. In fact, it is a niche goal within another niche goal.

I will at least share my logic in wanting to do this, so other's might understand if they don't already.

1. I want to be able to lucid dream any night.
2. Accomplished meditators have enhanced awareness that makes lucid dreaming easier to achieve.
3. Neurofeedback offers an accelerated way to gain skill in meditation.
4. Sleep studies use the same type of EEG equipment that one would use with neurofeedback, and offers graphing of one's sleep cycles.
5. Since Neurofeedback equipment and sleep study equipment are basically the same, and both are usefull for LD goals, then there you go...

Best wishes with your endevours, I'll be looking forward to more reports.

**apsinvo** · 05-01-2011 10:20 PM

Thanks for your interest in my post! I am travelling at the moment but back home on Tuesday. I'm going to capture a few sessions;
1. Self hypnosis/theta trance
2. Breathing meditation
3. Transcendental meditation

I'd be interested to see the differences here. I'm going to wait an hour between each session to return to normal waking reality before going onto the next. There are some other variables to consider;
1. Combined effect of previous meditations
2. Time of day

I'll post results back ASAP.

**IAmCoder** · 05-26-2011 12:10 PM

Bump!

**shadowofwind** · 06-02-2011 04:43 AM

A word of caution in relation to neurofeedback, which I've worked with before: it seems safe in the sense that you're not introducing any weird chemicals or other 'artificial' stimula into your brain. However, by observing brain activity that's usually subconscious, you can control stuff that you can't usually control, just by being able to see the effects of your mental adjustments. That stuff is all subconscious for various reasons, and one reason is to protect you from dangerous feedback loops. This is akin to how an amp rings out of control and damages itself. And since the neurofeedback is affecting your brain, which is intimately connected to both your emotions and your judgment, its compromising the only thing that can warn you if you're developing a serious problem. Personally I wouldn't do neurofeedback unless I already had a really serious neurological problem and thought that the potential help outweighed the risk. Otherwise its like doing surgery on yourself when you're not sick. I know I must sound like a spoilsport naysayer, so knock yourself out if you want to. But I think its not too different from how people used to experiment with powerful drugs without understanding the risks.

**IAmCoder** · 06-03-2011 02:04 PM

No. Awareness always creates greater order (lowers entropy).

Originally Posted by shadowofwind

I know I must sound like a spoilsport naysayer, so knock yourself out if you want to.

Ok:

Originally Posted by Misquote of shadowofwind

And since reading affects your brain, which is intimately connected to both your emotions and your judgment, its compromising the only thing that can warn you if you're developing a serious problem. Personally I wouldn't read a self improvement book unless I already had a really serious neurological problem and thought that the potential help outweighed the risk.

Although I must admit that I have had my share of worries about the proximity of electricity to my brain in my R&D of custom devices.

**kidjordan** · 06-28-2011 01:19 AM

So how's this project coming along. I want to try this, but before I invested the money, I would want a neurofeedback training manual and a list of EEG prices, etc. Is anybody pursuing this seriously?

**kidjordan** · 06-29-2011 02:42 PM

Comparison of consumer brain

Ok. So I've been researching this for a while now and the Emotiv systems definitely seems like the way to go. THAT, OR the OpenEEG project (I haven't looked into it too much).

EDIT: After looking into OpenEEG it seems like it's less appealing than Emotiv. If you want to go through the entire process of building an EEG for the fun of it, then go ahead and do it, but I don't even know what a soldering iron is (though it sounds familiar) so I'm not even going to attempt to build my own.

**IAmCoder** · 02-07-2012 01:43 PM

I finally got around to writing Lucid Scribe plug-ins for the Emotiv EPOC and the NeuroSky MindSet. It would be sweet as if you could test them. If we get them working I have a bunch of experiments that might prove interesting...

**kidjordan** · 02-07-2012 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by IAmCoder

I finally got around to writing Lucid Scribe plug-ins for the Emotiv EPOC and the NeuroSky MindSet. It would be sweet as if you could test them. If we get them working I have a bunch of experiments that might prove interesting...

The EPOC is kinda worthless eh? I want something that actually works. I can't tell whether my brain is changing or whether it's misreading my brain.