Exactly. I think you'd be surprised by how extensive the differences really are. When using text to say, "A black cat crossed my path," some will envision a fat cat, some slim, clean, dirty, was the tail docked, misshapen, was all of it black or some of it, what about a collar?, any noise to go along with it? Was it dragging a foot behind it, have anything in its mouth? what about the path itself.....? In dreaming, everyone is given information but how that information is translated varies widely. It's definitely an important arena for consideration.
Originally Posted by ThreeCat
I certainly think meeting another mind in dreaming is more dramatic than waking life. Just because the feels are so much more intense in dreaming, in my experience. One of the very basic objectives when trying to meet another mind in dreaming is to simply see the same way. Seeing (or perceiving) in the same way makes things a whole lot easier. I mean, this is why scientists from most of the world use the metric system (except for us pesky Americans....for some reasons we think counting feet is more appropriate than meters). If everyone is seeing the same thing, for what it is, then when we communicate our experiences those should be relatively accurate. Understanding the difference between objective and subjective reality is essential; difficulties here lead to basic communication issues.
Lucidity can be helpful though it's not the only way to achieve a shared dream. For a basic example, you know students are often told to do reality checks while they're awake, in hopes of doing them while asleep? If a person is focused on finding another person during waking, then this desire can express itself in dreaming, without having to be lucid. Setting up a sort of cognitive autopilot for ourselves in dreaming is certainly achievable. We don't have to be lucid to have a shared dream, but it can be considerably helpful.
Rigorous testing methods are appropriate for scientific research. What a class aims is not to meet those particular standards. My goal, if to teach this course, would be to help people have the experience of a shared dream. I have no desire to prove to anyone, other than the student, that shared dreaming is possible. I'm not out to produce a scientific article, I want to share the experience with others because a) it's mind blowing and b) if this field is to advance further, there needs to be more people having the experience. Therefore, if I want more scholarly research in this field, people must be having the experience (and yes, I think more research in this field would be amazing). Yeah, and partners may disagree on whether a dream was shared or not, and that's okay both ways. We can't correct people when they call an orange, an apple. If they think an orange is an apple, that's how they perceive things. Now, what we can do is define an orange and apple, then allow people to call things whatever they want. How people integrate knowledge is their responsibility; providing that knowledge is the responsibility of the instructor(s).
I'm interested too! Lol. We're tailgating in the forums until it gets the go-ahead...I've responded to Ophelia's email soon after she sent it so she's likely dotting the 'i's and crossing the 't's.
I JUST figured out the forums have multi-quote capabilities (and only due to your mentioning the merging). Thanks for pointing that out.
Originally Posted by AURON
You said very kind things here, but I need to address just one thing. I've never seen you as a student (in any form), don't think that. Our exchanges have taught me how to be more accurate in my own dreaming because you've made yourself available to me. We're friends, friends share experiences and it's always a bonus when friends learn from one another
I'd hate to go further into the diet and shared dreaming comparison, as not all things will translate equally...but...generally speaking:
Originally Posted by FryingMan
Every body responds differently to nutrients. Macro- and micro- nutrients are assimilated to varying degrees by the body. Some people respond very well to smaller amounts of protein, while others struggle to develop mass on a higher protein intake. It's not all about what is eaten, it's about other components within the diet, in addition to exercise, in addition to individual biology. So while, yes, most can agree what a healthy diet is, there's no guarantee that the "healthy diet" will be healthy for every body. Some people have allergies, limiting what they may consume, which may deviate from what is recommended as healthy. What is healthy for one person, or even the masses, is not healthy for all.
Going back to shared dreaming, not everyone is suitable for shared dreaming. Shared dreaming requires allowing others access to personal mindspace. This availability can be threatening to people who have things about themselves they don't want revealed or spoken about. How we speak about others can be abrasive too, so being aware of the sensitivities of our dreaming partners should be addressed. It's important to feel relatively comfortable with oneself, before venturing into shared dreaming because people will perceive all sorts of things and then want to talk about those things. This has lead to many awkward conversations. I've been asked by a good friend recently, "Why did you look like you were on crack, tweaking out, and f*cking men behind restaurants in dreaming?" I laughed, because I have a pretty solid grasp on who I am and am comfortable enough to hear things which may seem like an unkind reflection on my character. It takes maturity to be able to hear others speak of us in ways which contradict our own sense of self. Too, I sometimes do prefer to engage in coitus in odd locations and I can see how she may perceive my attitude as being in a state of withdrawal or addiction. Having an awareness of others and ourselves supports honest communication. Those who lack that maturity may want to delay their shared dreaming exploration until they're more comfortable.
What does this have to do with your concern? Well. For someone who isn't comfortable with themselves (a person who thinks eating donuts is healthy), merely taking the time to objectively write their dreams is a HUGE step in self-awareness. So this may be like going from a dozen donuts a day, to just three donuts a day. That would be healthy behavior for that person because it's supportive of better eating habits. Yes, there's room for further improvement but not everyone is capable of sudden changes; long-lasting changes generally involve small changes. As that person progresses, maybe they want to define shared dreaming differently than how most people define shared dreaming. That's fine, everyone has their own vision of what an experience should look like. We'll provide a standard definition and if people deviate from that to properly address their unique beliefs, the concept of shared dreaming won't be any worse for it.
Defining the typical definition of shared dreaming is like the same as defining the typical definition of a healthy diet. However, everyone is different and responds differently depending on their unique circumstances. Therefore, everyone will have their own goals which are appropriate for them.
I know you're saying it's important to not lead people to false beliefs as it sends a confusing message. What's I'm saying is we'll send a single message, but what people do with that message is beyond our control.
I know this was directed toward Auron, but I wanted to mention this since it was brought up. Personal experience is typically not helpful as the sole measure of proof or instruction. On the other hand, it is a good supplement to research. From the start, it should be obvious but I'll say it anyway. Shared dreaming won't happen for everyone. Reading literature on what it's like to be a compassionate person, both from the scientific and personal experience sides, will not equate to being compassionate. Not everyone can acquire and apply knowledge in a productive manner.
Originally Posted by Sageous
Yeah, there will be something resembling course requirements. The only true requirement is the willingness to engage, but I'll mention the other features which are supportive of shared dreaming. To measure progress requires dreaming activities, which will be included, and the progress itself will depend on whatever the activity is designed to highlight. One thing to keep in mind is that measuring progress may be complex. Example: if a dreaming exercise is to find another person (imagined or real) and describe them objectively, and the waking description included subjective observations--that could be considered a failure of the exercise. Yet, when those failures are pointed out--and if that individual understands the failures and corrects them--then the failure becomes a success. It should be a fun experience and "getting it" or "not getting it" isn't so much a concern. There are ways to modify exercises to make them accessible to most.
Originally Posted by ThreeCat
Your reminders and suggestions are very helpful--I ask you NOT to shut up when you notice things that require the additional attention. If I ever don't seem to understand something, please mention it again, I don't mind the repetition especially when I'm missing something or misunderstood you. In fact, I'm using these discussions to improve upon what eventually winds up in the class.
Originally Posted by Sageous
Yes, I agree--explaining what occurs at a physiological level is important. For example, select antipsycotic drugs are HELPFUL to lucidity, which can be indirectly helpful for shared dreaming. Definitely an aspect to be included.
Thanks, and I don't know how the class will be set-up. I'm still waiting on Ophelia to confirm I'm able to teach the class (alongside other instructors, ideally). I was planning on asking her if DVA has a preferred set-up for classes (to keep all the classes similar in functionality, creating a more user-friendly experience). If not, then I'll decide on a more detailed outline for the course and then create an environment supportive of what's to be taught. I love the idea of workbooks (and those seem to work well for the other courses) and there will have to be threads for theory and general inquiries that may not be related to lessons, but are general curiosities.
Originally Posted by NyxCC
Rules though? Heh, I've never been too excited about rules. Though, for the sake of the other learners, a decent environment will be necessary but the rules for the general forum will likely be all that's required.
I'll plan to PM you about suggestions when I eventually have the go ahead and finalize the outline since you brought this up