Thread: Sexism in Video Games

I think when you are telling a story, everything is fair game. How can we have interesting plots and discussions if we can't include controversial subject matter?

I was trying to think of what to say, but there are so many games around today that it is very difficult talk about them as if they are one thing. I don't think it is really an issue at all, as long as it fits in the context of the game and the genre of the game. You would expect to find some sexist stuff in any form of entertainment, as our entertainment often reflect the culture we live in and there is still sexist attitudes that exist. There is no reason you couldn't have say strippers in a game, that isn't automatically sexist. The important thing to remember when dealing with sexism and stuff is just being aware of things. Sexist things are a problem when you see them as normal and you start treating people like that.

However, as you pointed out people are not more sexist from playing games, nor are they any more violent. We know that games are not real, and a lot of the sexist type games are usually over the top and obviously so. You are obviously not going to take your morals from a game where you go around killing people and stuff.

I agree with Alric and Snoop, but only up to a point. In fact, if we're going to talk about sexual harassment being a 'trigger' to former victims (if that's what you're talking about) then how about vets suffering from PTSD seeing people getting mowed down indiscriminately in shooter games? Or for that matter anyone who has lost somebody to gun violence. These can be very traumatic situations - but I would say that's not necessarily a reason to exclude gun violence from games - people who dislike gun violence should stay away from games depicting it. I haven't personally played any games like GTA that feature the kind of sexual harassment I think you're talking about, so I don't know how it's depicted, or how violent it gets or anything. Without knowing that I can't really say much about it. But I do think that, just like with movies or stories, there's a certain point beyond which you can't really call it drama anymore, it becomes porn (like the 'torture porn' movies for instance), and at that point I'd say it's too much and just an assault against good taste.

But as long as it's not beyond that point, then women in distress has always been a main subject for dramatic adventure, in fiction just as in real life. Men throw themselves into danger, at risk of life and limb, to rescue or avenge women. And it's necessary to dramatize the distress of the women in order to justify the response.

I dont know if this thread is directly related to recent gamer events or not, but things have gotten out of hand. A feminist has been posting videos of her opinion of the sexism in video games. For posting her point of views, she's being harassed by the gamer community. ......And that's an understatement. The harassment is so extreme, she can take criminal action against these gamers.

No one should be treated that horribly just for posting their opinion.

Being a gamer, im quite used to the damsel in distress in video games. I get it. Its the male fantasy of being heroic. And that's great and all. And I'm not gonna say its sexist. But I am gonna say this, for a lot of female gamers the topic is boring and uninteresting and a lot of times its disappointing.

And guy gamers need to understand that. Duh! Of course your gamer girlfriend doesn't care about a plot line where females are useless lumps of bouncing boobs. Of course those types of games might upset her. But for a guy to be upset that she's upset, that's all sorts insane. Gamer guys should be more open about the reality of the games they play, many of them are the MALE fantasy. Which by nature means, its not as fun for girls.

And there's nothing wrong with indulging the male fantasy. Its simply that a large portion of gamers are females. And nobody likes to feel left out.

So lets talk about Grand Theft Auto. Okay, I admit ive never played this game. Before you bark at me I don't even have the platform to play this game. But I've heard awesome things about how hilarious this game is. I can see why its popular. Adult sexual content in a video game. Great!

So what's the problem? (From what I hear) the problem is GTA decided to appeal to straight-dudes only. Its all about the bouncing boobs! What about the lady gamers? Maybe they want their cut scenes to be full of manly strippers? What about about the gay guys? Maybe they want manly man on man action in their games? And correct me if Im wrong, maybe that already happens in the game, I dont know.

Am I making sense? Gamer guys get all defensive and try to argue that games like this aren't sexist......Well...they kinda are. Not becuase they have bouncing boobs. Not because they have female strippers or what else. But because they choose to ONLY appeal to one sex and orientation, straight dudes. The franchise considers everyone else unimportant.

And that's really really dumb, lame, and possibly even homophobic. Gamer girls and others would gladly give the GTA franchise as much money as any other dude, if only, they would make the adult content more appealing to them.

So....why doesn't the GTA franchise just do that? Why not? Manly manly pride?

GTA franchise and other game producers can learn a lot from Japan. See, anime in japan is not sexist. Anyone making that argument isn't watching enough anime. The female being in anime is as abused as the male being, no gender is safe! Kill la Kill is a recent example. At first you might think the show is all about showing half naked females fight. Well, yeah, theres lots of half naked females but theres also "nudist nude" guys running around!! The sexual humor in the show is meant to appeal to EVERYONE.

Its an awesome anime btw.

And thats what the video game market needs to do. If you're gonna make an adult game with sexual content, make the sexual content appeal to EVERYONE, then no one can bark or complain that its sexist, becuase no gender was safe!! Just make it an option at the start of the game which experience you want. If dude-games did that, the market would explode!

So why don't they? Really, why don't they? Seriously, just make the market enjoyable to all genders, sexes, orientations, whatever.

Heres hoping the video game industry continues to evolve and learns from anime.

Originally Posted by juroara

Its the male fantasy of being heroic.

It's not just a fantasy - it's the male necessity to learn that their lot in life is to sacrifice for women. Long before there were video games, male games involved fighting and protecting females because it's preparation for life. The same way lion and tiger cubs play fight and learnt to stalk for prey etc. You have to impress on the males that it's HEROIC to protect females no matter the risk to yourself, how else do you get them to stay on sinking ships till all the women and children have been offloaded, or to run into burning buildings? To be willing to fight wars, or to fight one-on-one (or one-on-many) when necessary? Often to protect females.

Originally Posted by juroara

the problem is GTA decided to appeal to straight-dudes only.

That's because they know who their biggest demographic is by far. Nobody is stopping anybody from making games for gays or for women. But it's also a fact that the audience for such games is incredibly small, not enough to make it a lucrative field. And it would defeat the whole purpose to put gay or female interest subject matter in games aimed at young straight males.

And I wasn't going to respond to the first part, but Anita Sarkeesian does a whole lot more than express her opinion. She attempts to get sweeping changes made in the gaming industry, and unfortunately the feminists are able to exert a great deal of political power. You ask what's wrong with her expressing her opinion - well, she doesn't feel that it's anybody else's right to express a dissenting opinion - hence why she just recently got ThunderFoot's Twitter account shut down. He never attacked her or made any kind of threats or did anything remotely wrong - he simply pointed out the logical fallacies in her ridiculous arguments. Her tactics, like most radical feminists, involve shutting down the voice of the opposition rather than engaging in honest debate.

If more women were involved in making video games for women than those video games would exist. Right now the target audience is males. I have heard it from many women in my life, most just can't understand why men love games so much, what they find so interesting in them. I don't mean to say that games made in the interest of womanly desires and likes shouldn't be made at all, but rather that there doesn't seem to be much of a market for them. Women can start making games for women as much as they want, so can men. The reason they don't is because not enough people are asking for them. If you want them so bad, you have to make them yourselves, or at least push for their creation, you know?

Yeah, in movies there are genres that appeal to female audiences (and not so much to straight males, especially young ones) - but for some reason the games A.S. and co. seem to focus on are the action/adventure games. That would be like criticizing romantic dramas for not having enough explosions and gunfights to appeal to men. She's looking into the wrong genre is the problem. I don't have a cell phone or play games of that sort, but as I understand it there are a lot of those that aren't filled with violence and gore. Also lots of MMORPGs like Minecraft (not sure, never played it).

Yeah, there are many games now that don't even involve fighting or violence, they're just a way to explore. You just have to look for what it is that you want to play.

Originally Posted by snoop

but rather that there doesn't seem to be much of a market for them.

NOOOO. That is a complete insult to female gamers everywhere. We are a HUGE market. Why do you think Zelda is such a beloved franchise? Because of FEMALES. If females didn't play Zelda, it would only be half as big. Seriously, so give us some more credit. When girls love a game, they're the difference that makes a game an international sensation. (kinda like how the Hispanic vote makes a difference)

Women can start making games for women as much as they want, so can men. The reason they don't is because not enough people are asking for them. If you want them so bad, you have to make them yourselves, or at least push for their creation, you know?

There you go again with this strange idea that not enough females are asking for games they like. Are you kidding me? We've been asking for awesome games since the 90s. THERE IS a demand for them. (and foreign countries have done a better job at answering that call)

Your argument is "if females want games that are enjoyable for females, then females should make that game". This logic doesn't even make sense to me.

A guy is perfectly capable of designing a game a female can enjoy. This is true in just about every other form entertainment on the planet, music, movies, comics. Theres no reason why guys aren't capable of appealing to their female fans. And a female is perfectly capable of designing a game a guy would enjoy. Most female gamers date/marry a guy gamer anyways. They know them well.......!

So this argument that only females should make games for females, I mean, what is that? Noo. Nooo.

And if this is the attitude that the gamer community has, imagine the attitude the industry has? Who becomes apart of the industry? Gamers. Gamers are the ones who create and own game content. So if the mentality is "Only females create games for females. Were not females so we don't care to appeal to female fans!", does that also mean "a game created by a female should only be run on a platform created by a female". Which is what, zero?

Its just not healthy for the game community to have that mentality because it does affect the mentality the industry has. And I can't tell you why there are less female game creators. But game creation has been predominantly male for a long time. These things don't happen over night, it will take awhile for a large number of game creators to be female. Most likely, those future content creators are in school right now.

And also, you're starting to insinuate that games made for girls is a type of genre. Okay, well what type of genre is it?...............Romance? Gender does not equal genre. My favorite manga genre is shonen, that means "boys". All the guys at the anime club I go to LOVE romances, or the "girls" manga. Gender has never equaled genre, it just doesn't.

So what does it mean to ensure a game is enjoyable for guys and girls? Most of the time its as simple as making an AWESOME male hero and an AWESOME female heroine. Both. Lots of games already do that. Its really not rocket science.

.......

If gamer girls don't complain that the industry is biased in some way, how would the gamer community ever know? I know theres a lot of noise going on lately. But the noise is necessary. Everyones input is important, guys and girls.

I agree with all your opinions.

I want to talk more about the sensitivity of these games to females. It's not meant for females, but some females who fear sexual harassment get hurt when they see others enjoy this sort of sexual harassment in games. Of course, these sexual games are like roleplay; no one is thinking it's real. Women can enjoy these games (the women version of them) as much as men would, but they are currently sensitive because of the sexual harassment problems in real life. Of course I don't think the fantasy(video games) is the problem, but rather these open wounds that lots of females carry. I'm not saying it's wrong to play these video games.

But Darkmatters, why is rape in games wrong? Sexual partners play rape roleplay when they are intimate. Video games are just like that, fantasy. I mean, if I saw a game where a women knocks a guy out cold then rapes him, I would think it's hilarious, not sexist because it's fantasy, and I don't have an open wound. A guy who has been raped before will think it's insensitive, but that's because he has an open wound. It's not about the fantasy, it's about the open wound. Everyone enjoys rape fantasies except for the open wounded.

Yeah, thunderfoot got banned from twitter. You know when Annita said in a video of hers that "the more you think that you aren't effected, the more likely you are effected" about being effected by sexual harrasment in video games(or in other words, be more likely to rape or sexaully haras when playing these games) ? Yeah the studies she made for that only showed priming to THINK about sex. THINK! Not primed to DO sexual harassment, but THINK about sex. That's what she used to prove her point.
Of course I don't like that she's being harassed, but I do hate how much she misguides by using lies.

The ratio of hardcore gamers is 7 males to 1 female, surveys show.

Juroara you aren't quite getting my meaning. I am not saying that female gamers don't exist and that there isn't a demand for female oriented games, per se. What I am meaning to say is, there aren't enough women in the game development community that want to push for women oriented games. I'm sorry, but if you are a straight male, you don't have any clue what it is like to be a woman. I have no idea what it is that you want out of games, I just know what I want out of games. The Zelda series is great, one of my favorite in fact, but you can't deny it's roots as a male-oriented game. If you choose to deny that, then you have to deny that any games are really male oriented, and believe that they are simply gamer oriented but you are choosing to view many of them as male-oriented when in fact they have no direct orientation other than for being a game whatsoever. I personally believe the latter is more of the case, but since you are arguing that not enough games are female oriented, I have to argue on your terms, and so if you break it down along the same criteria, the Zelda series are male oriented games.

What I don't think makes sense is for there to be games meant to be oriented for anybody other than those who wish to play games. Why would you ever choose to limit your audience to a single sex? I think woman are reading too much into it and finding things to be the way they choose to see them (or anybody who believes that games are male oriented and not meant to be played by everyone for that matter). So, perhaps when I say there isn't a demand for female oriented games on the market, what I mean to say is that there is only a demand for gamer oriented games on the market, and your belief otherwise is really just your own doing and if you choose to see most games as being male oriented, then they will be. You are painting the picture here, if you think the developers obviously intended the games to be played by men, then that is how they were made. If you choose to believe otherwise, then the same is true for that.

I'm not sure if females like call of duty as much as males do

I might be mistaken though, because we need to consider the ratio 7 males to 1 female

The thing I am getting at here is nobody is being appreciative of what they are being given. If you want there to be video games that pander to your likes, then go make it. If you can't do that, then quit complaining. Can you honestly expect somebody else to make something just for you? Games are works of art. The people that make them do so because they are making the game they want to make. If you don't like that, don't play their game, and go make your own.

Originally Posted by snoop

The thing I am getting at here is nobody is being appreciative of what they are being given. If you want there to be video games that pander to your likes, then go make it. If you can't do that, then quit complaining. Can you honestly expect somebody else to make something just for you? Games are works of art. The people that make them do so because they are making the game they want to make. If you don't like that, don't play their game, and go make your own.

I would agree, but partly I don't because game designers know how to make games that appeal both genders, whether the game designer is a male or a female. But I do agree that there isn't biasm in the game industry because these industries want profit. The fact is that certain types of games are the most demanded, and they happen to be demanded mostly by males because most hardcore videogamers are in fact males.
So I'd call it tough luck. Women gamers are just unlucky, which isn't a good thing of course. 7 to 1 ratio ppl.

I apologize for how I sounded in my last post, I let the topic get under my skin. What I realized was that I was getting upset over how ungrateful people were being that games were even being created at all. If you have the money and resources to make the type of games you think should be out there for people to play, then go for it. But, if you don't like how things are, and all you can find yourself doing is complaining, then I suggest you reevaluate why you play games in the first place. Nobody has to make these games for you, they are doing it because they want to make something they think is beautiful. If you can't appreciate that, then you have to put in some work, man hours, or energy yourself. That way, the type of game you think needs to be on the market will be there, and you can rest with a smile on your face because you put it there.

Originally Posted by LouaiB

Women can enjoy these games (the women version of them) as much as men would, but they are currently sensitive because of the sexual harassment problems in real life. Of course I don't think the fantasy(video games) is the problem, but rather these open wounds that lots of females carry.

As I said before, what about veterans suffering from PTSD who see people indiscriminately shooting people in games? Is it different when it's a man? Why would that be? Are you implying that women are weak and frail and need to be protected but that the same doesn't apply to men who carry open wounds (often physical as well as emotional)? How on earth could sexual harassment even compare with seeing friends blown apart or losing limbs? And yet people in general seem to have this attitude you're expressing, that we have to protect the women but not the men. Everyone believes women should be protected but that men shouldn't, in fact that men should just shut up and deal with it.

And I'm not actually trying to say that there should be no games with gun violence in them - I'm just wondering why people make this out to be a sexist issue when it's really an issue of upsetting people with open wounds. I think it would become a much more honest discussion if the sexist claim were removed and we could get to the actual meat of it.

Originally Posted by LouaiB

But Darkmatters, why is rape in games wrong? Sexual partners play rape roleplay when they are intimate. Video games are just like that, fantasy. I mean, if I saw a game where a women knocks a guy out cold then rapes him, I would think it's hilarious, not sexist because it's fantasy, and I don't have an open wound. A guy who has been raped before will think it's insensitive, but that's because he has an open wound. It's not about the fantasy, it's about the open wound. Everyone enjoys rape fantasies except for the open wounded.

What??!! I didn't say anything about rape in games!! I was talking about sexual harassment, and I said that it's fine as long as it doesn't go over the line and become porn rather than drama. That applies to violence as well (and rape too for that matter). And the reason I said it's wrong is because it's an assault against good taste.

Maybe I need to explain what I mean by porn - it doesn't refer to just sexual material. It basically means anything that's supposed to be artistic (stories, movies games etc) that is instead made to only appeal to our most base instincts with no saving grace of good story or good anything else. Like the Saw movies (and all the imitators) for instance, which are called torture porn. They're not good drama, they just go completely overboard in finding creative ways of showing as much torture and gore as possible.

That kind of stuff is addictive, which is why the people who like it REEEALLY like it. It's like, the first time you see it it shocks you, but after a while you get desensitized and don't mind it anymore, and even start to find a perverse joy in it that's different from anything else, partly because it's so shocking. People become addicted to this kind of stuff, and then we have a generation of weirdos (lol) who will grow up and think this is the kind of stuff they should make, and 20 years later its all over everywhere rather than just being a few isolated incidents like we have now.

Personally, I like a game for its mechanics, not its theme or whatever. I care not for the rating; if the gameplay is unique and interesting, I'm sold. That said, unlike most gamers I've seen, whom are usually focused on one theme or genre, mine collection is a mixture of sorts. Most other gamers think I'm weird because I play so many unusual games.

Though, I will admit, I do find the whole "damsel in distress" phenomenon to be extremely clichéd--and I avoid clichés like the plague. That's why I liked Lost Kingdoms I & II for the Nintendo GameCube so much, because it was so different from anything I had ever seen. Instead of playing as this generic, gallant knight-in-shining-armour, you played as a tough, independent woman whom travels the continent, single-handedly overthrowing tyrannical rulers and saving villages and entire nations from imminent disaster. I would definitely recommend this game to anyone looking for something different. It has a unique card-based battle system and an emotive story to boot. Despite some design flaws, it is a thoroughly enjoyable game, in mine opinion. Though, good luck finding a fresh copy, much less at a reasonable price.

That said, I've always hated games like Grand Theft Auto, Call of Duty, etc--not because I was offended by their content, but because I simply find them boring as hell. I very much prefer games that put you into situations which force you to use your brain, as opposed to mindlessly mashing buttons.

Women want the same thing men want in games. Which is usually fun game play and good story. One or the other, ideally both. If you make a game with a good story, and the game play is really fun, then everyone is going to play it.

There is obviously some subset of games that are designed just to be offensive and silly(like GTA), but I don't think those are worth discussing much since everyone knows they are sexist and offensive. It is obvious, and apparently no one here even plays them because the idea doesn't seem appealing to them. Those sort of games are not really the norm, but we all know they are out there. I don't think anyone is going to deny that games that are trying to be offensive on purpose are offensive.

I think the reason there isn't as many female game creators, is because there isn't as many female programmers. The reason for that is because people have the attitude that women are not as good at technical stuff. That isn't true at all, but it is kind of a self fulfilling prophecy, where people tell women they are not as good at it and they kind of believe it so they don't try, then of course there is less of them and that seems to back up that belief that they are not as good. That is one of the things we need to try changing. That isn't so much an issue with games but with schools and society being ridged and slow to change with the times. There is definitely sexism in areas like that, and it probably contributes to some sexism in games that just reflection on everyday sexism in our general society.

Like I said originally though, there are a ton of games and different genres of games and stuff. I would say in most areas games are pretty progressive though and it is obvious that most games try to be open to a wider audience of men and women.

On the side issue of Anita Sarkeesian, a lot of people are mad at her because she stole a bunch of videos from gamers on youtube and stuff and then used those videos to illegally make money by passing it off as her own work. Basically she is a criminal who plagiarizes other people work for profit. In other words, she is a scumbag. Which is why no one likes her.

Originally Posted by Alric

people have the attitude that women are not as good at technical stuff. That isn't true at all, but it is kind of a self fulfilling prophecy, where people tell women they are not as good at it and they kind of believe it so they don't try, then of course there is less of them and that seems to back up that belief that they are not as good. That is one of the things we need to try changing. That isn't so much an issue with games but with schools and society being ridged and slow to change with the times. There is definitely sexism in areas like that, and it probably contributes to some sexism in games that just reflection on everyday sexism in our general society.

I'm sorry but this is a feminist fallacy. Women have a lot more white matter in their brains, men have a lot more grey matter. Their brains are different. Women are not as good at hard science, hard math or engineering as men, and that's just a fact. Due to the feminist push in colleges there have been many that tried all kinds of ways to get women into those classes, and quite a few women did enter them, but not many have been good enough to get degrees in those fields. And this is with a huge push to get them there! It does no good to blame it on society or sexism. It's just a biological fact, like the fact that males have more upper body strength.

Kind of like how women are better at language skills, and thus there is almost no men who speak foreign languages? Oh wait, that isn't true. Any one, regardless of gender is perfectly capable to learning the skills needed for this sort of thing. It isn't like basic programming requires extremely high levels of skills. You could learn to program a game in a single class, and any person who takes four years of collage courses on the subject are going to be fully capable of using that degree and working in a professional setting.

I don't believe for a second that the average woman couldn't get a degree in programming if they really wanted to, and there is no evidence at all to suggest that they can't. Even if you want to think that men are 'better', that doesn't at all suggest that woman can't do it.

Wow! Wat??!! So many bizarre assumptions.

"Kind of like how women are better at language skills, and thus there is almost no men who speak foreign languages? Oh wait, that isn't true."

Who said men can't learn foreign languages? Aside from you I mean.

"Even if you want to think that men are 'better', that doesn't at all suggest that woman can't do it."

Again, I never said anything of the sort. You just assumed that was what I meant. Because men and women are different doesn't make one of them objectively better than the other - not at everything. But men are better at some things and women are better at some things. And just to be clear, I don't know if the women were unable to finish the programs or just weren't interested enough in them.

But I'm not going to get caught up in an endless back-and-forth over these deflections and straw man arguments.

That was my point, no one would ever say that men can't learn foreign languages or that there isn't many who do it. In the studies on brains they say women are better at languages skills by a larger margin than men are better than women at science stuff. Yet it doesn't seem to slow men down that much at all does it? So there is no reason to think it is a significant impairment to any women trying to learn programming. Which ironically enough, programming is like using another language, so women should be better at it any way, right?

But we know that men do learn foreign languages, and we also know that very few women are taking STEM courses and even fewer are graduating with degrees in those fields. I don't claim to know exactly why that is, but the facts speak for themselves. And please don't read into that anything that I didn't say - the only fact I'm referring to is the fact I stated, that women tend not to enter STEM courses or to graduate from them nearly as much as men do. Alright, I've stated my case (several times now, and clarified it). There's no real point in continuing this. We both know neither of us is going to convince the other.

Is it really this hard to accept that men and women are different and both are good and better at different things? God damn.