Placebos

[Burke]

I'm fairly certain that everybody here knows what a placebo is so I won't bother going into detail about them specifically. However, they have recently been making me think and I figured I would share some of my thoughts with everybody here. Placebos, by nature, can only have any effect if the user does not know it is a placebo. i.e. if you give somebody with some pain a sugar pill telling them their pain will go away, it will likely diminish. However, if you give somebody a sugar pill and tell them it's just a placebo, there will likely be no effect. This is what has been bothering me. When pertaining to LDs, there are many techniques which could be placebos, though there lies the dilemma. If I tell you, then they won't be placebos anymore and will have little to no effect. However, if somebody hears that something is a placebo from another person whom did not first tell the person, or somebody they do not trust, then it will likely still have effect. What I mean is that if you hear something about stabalization from a member on the forums who is well known/respected, then you will likely believe them and, when you try it, your dreams will most likely stabalize using this technique. Let's say Onerionaut or Zebrah says that if you jump into water in your dreams they will stabalize. If you trust them then during a LD, if you jump into some water, your dream will likely stabalize. If you don't trust/believe them though, this will not work. However, lets say a new member or even myself tells you this will not work. Since you likely don't trust that person entirely, or maybe you just don't believe them, this technique will still work. Therefore, the placebo will still be effective and your brain will continue to be tricked. However, let's say another well respected member, or even the original person who told you about the technique, tells you that it's all just a placebo, it has no concrete effect. This technique will likely not stabalize your dreams anymore and you will not believe in it. My problem with this is should you let people continue living not knowing that whatever they are doing/taking is a placebo, or should you tell them and cause them to not be able to use the technique. Should you choose ignorance over success? Also, keep in mind that this can't work for yourself since you do not know if a certain effect is a placebo or not. This means that you can only tell people other than yourself. Should you ruin their success with a certain technique, even though you open their eyes to something which is actually a falsity? Basically, when does success outweigh knowledge? And who are you to ruin somebody else's success simply by uttering a phrase?

[Alyzarin]

I don't think you're really considering this properly. If you told me that a lucid technique was just placebo, I'd say "Who the hell are you to say something like that?" Are you saying that anyone really knows enough about the mind for this to ever be an issue?

[Burke]

What if a mod or somebody very well respected that you believe had thorough knowledge of DV told you about a new technique they discovered, and later told you it's a placebo? Such as Stephen LaBerge. Would you still believe in it?

[Darkmatters]

Confuscious say - in realm where power of belief mean everything - what is meaning of Placebo?

[Alyzarin]

I assume you're saying that I would have attempted this technique and it worked for me in this situation, since that's the only thing that would make it a "placebo" instead of just a lie. In that case, yes. We're not taking drugs here, we're just controlling our minds in whatever way possible. There are no placebos vs real techniques, there's only what does work for you individually and what doesn't.

[Burke]

But even if everything is what you said, then everything would be a placebo. Everything only works because we believe it does. If you are well respected and told somebody that a certain technique is jsut a sham, a fake, then is it really okay to ruin the effect of it?

[Alyzarin]

It won't ruin the effect if it works for them because if you tell someone "This doesn't work." they're going to say "No, it does." You can't say "everything is a placebo" because the only way there can be a placebo is if it has a "true" technique to contrast it with. That's not what this situation is. There is no effect that will work universally for everyone, and if you try something and it works, then it works.

[Burke]

Still, if a placebo is to be effective you have to truly believe that it will help you with whatever you are trying to accomplish. That's why I used Stephen Laberge as an example, since he is extremely well respected in the lucid dreaming community and pretty much wrote the book on it. If he were to tell you that a certain reality check does is not effective, then you would likely believe him, right? Not necessarily one as well known as the nose pinch, but other ones such as looking at a clock or looking at your hands. If he told you that those are not true and have no effect in dreams, and you believed him, then the RC would likely not work. I'm simply trying to say if it right to disrupt a technique which works for somebody simply by convincing them that it is not true?

[Alyzarin]

No, I wouldn't. Because I don't blindly believe what people say just because they're respected. If I have tried a technique and it works for me, I have absolutely no reason to believe anyone who says it doesn't. If it works for me once, then I'll believe it'll work again.

[Darkmatters]

Burke, I think you're missing an essential part of the definition of Placebo. It mens basically "it only works because you believe it will work" - meaning that if it's a medication, it has no actual physical effect on your body - it's just a 'visual aid' to help strengthen your belief so mental processes can do their thing (people don't understand the great extent to which everything depends on attitude). When dealing with lucid dreaming - EVERYTHING is purely about mental attitude! There's not supposed to be anything physical going on... unless you're talking about taking some kind of supplement. This is why I think it's kind of pointless to use the term placebo in relation to lucid dreaming (unless it's in reference to a supplement).

[Burke]

I understand what you're saying, but there are many others, especially newbies, who just believe in whatever somebody says based on their reputation. Is it still okay to interfere with their success in order so relinquish them from their ignorance? edit: and to darkmatters, I know that lucid dreaming is all in the mind, but that doesn't mean something relating to it can't be ruined by convincing someone that it will not work. Perhaps even more so. Supplements could be thrown into my argument too but it's not needed to try and get my point across. Mainly, people new to LDing do not have any foundations yet, so knocking one of those out by convincing them it does not work could disrupt their success. I wanted to know if you believe that's okay.

[Alyzarin]

No, because telling someone something won't work when it might is just rude. This is what I'm trying to get across. There is no ignorance in believing something works if it actually does work for you. A placebo means that something works only because you convinced someone it would, not because it does anything by itself. In this situation, if something works, then it does do something by itself. Period.

[Darkmatters]

(@ Burke) Oh, you mean by telling them "It's only a placebo"? Personally I think anything that can help people achieve lucids is alright, as long as it doesn't do any harm. There are so many different techniques, some work for some people, some work for others. What doesn't work your one person may very well work for somebody else - as long as they think it will. And the beginning is such a crucial time - it's important to strengthen their belief as much as possible that it will happen. Yeah, it's probably not a great idea to be saying "Dude- this technique doesn't really work - it's only a placebo". I do think it's important however to get good info out there and try to limit the bad. There are certain things that work a lot better than others - this should be made clear to beginners. It would be a shame for somebody to try really hard for a long time with a technique that doesn't work very well or doesn't work at all. So I also believe that if you know a technique isn't a good one (hasn't worked for a lot of people who have tried it) then you should say so. I'd personally leave the word Placebo out of it though.

[Burke]

Okay, I admit that my argument could be wrong about techniques inside dreams, but let's look at supplements/various outer influences. I don't know very much about them but I do recall hearing that apple juice was good for vividity or something of the sort. Heck, even recall which is more easily proven. It has been proven to work. Now, you give that person something that has not been proven to do anything. Better yet, it has been proven to not do anything. If you give this to the person saying it will work, then later after they've had success you tell them it was all just a hoax, is that okay? You're messing with their results by lying to them.

[Darkmatters]

It depends on the results they got - if it makes them lucid, then it worked - if it doesn't then it didn't work. If it doesn't work I see nothing wrong with telling them later that you just wanted to help them work up some belief with a physical aid - but I think a better approach would be to start off by giving them a supplement that's actually known to work to some degree.

[Burke]

Yea I see what you're saying. Nobody with give someone a placebo right off the bat when they have things that work. They're mainly used in researching anyway I don't see why anybody would use just a placebo to gain effect.

[Alyzarin]

Placebos can be useful in areas other than research given the right setting. I tell my friends that milk thistle will make their hangover go away, or at least become more of a background feeling. I also tell them that smoking calea will make them come down from a roll or trip (especially bad trip) if they need to calm down. Is there any reason those things would work? I have no idea. But they do for them. Actually, they kind of do for me too. Usually what I'll do with these kind of basic useful things is postulate about certain effects that things could have using my general knowledge of them, then tell my friends they'll be effective, and then if they work I assume I was right so I believe them too. As for the actual question, I can't see any reason to tell someone something doesn't actually work if it's helping them, unless like said it's been long enough that they don't really need it anymore and you discover that it legitimately does not work, but even with medicines it's hard to really say what will and won't, I don't think it can be definitely proven that something won't help you lucid dream.

[greenhavoc]

the only time i've ever felt a placebo effect was from suggestive hallucinations on lsd. other than obvious cues, i seldom take anything at face value

[Original Poster]

The more we understand the connection between mind and body, the more the word "placebo" loses its meaning. when does success outweigh knowledge? Let me ask you this, in a world where absolutely nothing can be 100% certain, what is knowledge if not success?

[Supernova]

Confuscious say - in realm where power of belief mean everything - what is meaning of Placebo? /thread.

[tommo]

I sort of agree with Burke here. And I've though about making a random thing up and selling it confidently to a few noobs, to see how they progress. But I would need at least 5 members or so to go along with it. I think for LDing we should let people have their placebos. I do have a problem with giving false information, or not giving the truth because it may hurt the person, because the truth usually is always better. But in this case I think it would be okay tbh. Would anyone be interested in participating in that research study with me? We could tell them it's a placebo after a couple of weeks or something. Also, most people's control techniques are entirely placebo. Even experienced LDers. Like if they can't change the scene, people will tell them to open a door and expect it to be there. The action of opening a door has no relevance or effect whatsoever to anything, it just plays in to people's beliefs that you must do some action to get a result. Which is entirely false in the dream world. Marie Antoinette say "Let the people eat (or imagine) their placebos!"