Hello Oneironauts! A new lucid dreamer in the community.

[Dream_Quake]

Hello Oneironauts,

I've recently gotten back into LD (it happens in waves with me usually--I'll have a lucid dream, one that's quite amazing, and I'll remember how intense and fantastic they are, and I'll get back into recording them). When I'm in my recording phase, I will usually have about 4-5 a month. When I'm in my lazy, too-much-life going on periods, I'll usually have about 1 every two-three months. My lucid dreams are mind blowing people! Absolutely reality questioning. I swear, from my lucid dreams alone I get a glimpse of another dimension just beyond our feeble in-a-box minds.

I think, by the stories I've heard, that people don't experience the same "dream shake", or what I like to call the experience, "dream quake" (my handle). At the point my two consciences (waking ego and sleeping ego) meld into one, I have the most incredible sensation--nothing in my waking life comes close. I still have to exersice the techniques used to staying asleep (i.e. Hand Rubbing, Spinning, Doing the Jig ;0) ) The way my reality is shifted, or perhaps how the two egos collide causes this feelings as if I've just stepped through a portal of some kind. Like I've traversed through space-time--into a wormhole. And that's just the physical/mental feeling I get. The visual experience I witness is insane. The entire world I'm in (usually keeping the same theme as before the dream-quake) begins to crystalize...literally. Although, the crystalization doesn't haze over the scene, but rather creates an environment a thousand times more vivid and real than the previous casual dream. Each piece becomes detailed--as detailed truely, as the room you sit in now. Although, the same things occur in my LD as the rest of us. Things like words never stay the same, or 3rd person to first person shifting.

One major point I want to stress to all you Oneironauts out there is this: There are two kinds of lucid dreams-- The LUCID dream, and the PRE-LUCID dream. Many people claim to be able to lucid dream--but actually what most of these people are experiencing is what's called "pre-lucidity"; the realm just outside true-lucidity. One easy way to distinguish the two is the fear the pre-lucid dreamer has of bodily harm. A pre-lucid dreamer might say, "Oh, wow, I'm dreaming." And feal, at the time, that this is to be the truth, and understood. They might see an open window and want to fly out, but will not because of a strong primal fear of bodily harm. On the contrary, a true lucid dreamer would know for certain of their mental statis, and fear not any harm to the body, flying out the window and off into his own creation. I am not stating this to belittle any dreamer claiming to be lucid...but realize that pre-lucidity is often confused with true lucidity (which is undeniable)--for those of us that have reached true lucidity, and have experience a dream-quake (i.e. the bodies natural responce to melding the waking and sleeping egos--the mind tries to wake you up here).

If you have anymore questions about my thoughts, dreams, lucidity, pre-lucidity or just want to chat--join my Lucid Dreamers Google Group @ http://groups-beta.google.com/group/Luciddreamer

I'm not spamming--I just want to get people to join the first Lucid Dreamers Google Group (Google Groups is in beta still--very exciting)..

Thanks all. I'll be around.

--Michael

[nina]

Hey Michael, welcome to DV. First off I have to say that I disagree with you about the whole "lucidity" and "pre-lucidity" terms. Where are you getting this information? You come off sounding like you are an authority on the subject, yet you state no sources. The term "lucid dream" simply refers to the fact that you are aware that you are dreaming...hence the word "lucid" meaning to be aware of something. So as long as you know that you are dreaming, you are lucid. Now how much contol you have while lucid, and how vivid the dream is, whether or not you can fly, etc. are all variables that change from dream to dream. Just because the mind has these barriers on it that tell it "hey you can't fly out that window" and when you try to in your dream you can't, doesn't mean that you aren't still lucid. I've had hundreds of lucid dreams...many very vivid with much control, many somewhat blurry with little contol...it just depends on your sleep/dream and mind state at the time. I have also experienced, many times...what you talk about while "melding" as you put it, the 2 egos into your dream state. Sometimes my lucids are hyper-real, and seem almost more realistic and detailed than my life as it is now with me sitting here typing this post out. I have actually stepped through worm holes to enter a lucid...where I was watching the HI, waiting to gain control...and eventually stepping through a hole in the blackness and into my beautiful amazingly lucid dream. Anyway, welcome again...and keep dreaming.

[Dream_Quake]

Stephen himself speaks of the "pre" lucid state in his book. I believe Particia Garfield as well mentions the difference between certain states of lucidity.

I did not pull this out of nowhere. I've been studying LD for over a decade. In my research, and actual practice, this has always been the case.

I can clearily, in my own dreams, tell the difference between lucidity and pre-lucid. In a truely lucid dream (I beg to differ) I always have full control. Here are the differences between the two:

1. In a prelucid dream there is fear of bodily harm. In a fully lucid dream there is NEVER a fear...becuase you know without a doubt you are in bed sleeping.

2. There is never a "dream quake" or "shake" as some call it when the realization of "pre" lucidity occurs. But when I become lucid, there is ALWAYS a major disturbace in the force so to speak. The "melding" (yes I called it that ;0) ) of the egos causes a huge feeling that can't be missed. A dream shake or quake is the brains natural response to lucidity. It's as if you have walked into the Being John Malkovic door and are being kicked back out.

3. EVERY time I become lucid, my entire world breaks down and is rebuilt into an amazingly vivid beautiful detailed world. When I simply casualy say, "Wow, I'm dreaming.." (pre-lucid), nothing ever occurs mentally or visually. No disturbance what so ever.

I experiment personally with these things, along with hearing about the different states in study. I know immediately when I am lucid, but when I'm pre-lucid, I am still only *dream ego*. In questioning many of the people I've met in life as well, I've determined they mostly all only "pre" lucid dream. (i.e. fear death, can't control their dream, don't think about their resting body, no disturbance upon realization...etc)

I hope I don't come across as being defensive...but I was however attacked by you, you understand this. I wouldn't call myself an authority (look at where I placed myself on the self-ranking chart), but I would call my self a scholor.

Thanks for the responce though. I love debates.

[Dream_Quake]

You're last name isn't Dodge is it? I knew a Nina who was into LD.

EDIT--

But lo and behold I checked your profile (fancy thing thinking will do for you)--and you are not the NINA.

But what IS cool is that you are a CG illustrator just like me. I work in Maya, Max and Softimage, but I prefer Maya now. My CG site is down for the moment, but you can IM me sometime and I'll show you my stuff. ( IM: Zaphod --www.maxaddict@hotmail.com) I don't use that email for anything other than IM searchers.

Great stuff. Bye.

[Howie]

HELLO & WELCOME Dream_Quake

You seem to have some pretty awesome experiances.
However I do have to agree with lucidnina on;

Originally posted by lucidnina
The term \"lucid dream\" simply refers to the fact that you are aware that you are dreaming...hence the word \"lucid\" meaning to be aware of something. So as long as you know that you are dreaming, you are lucid. Now how much contol you have while lucid, and how vivid the dream is, whether or not you can fly, etc. are all variables that change from dream to dream. Just because the mind has these barriers on it that tell it \"hey you can't fly out that window\" and when you try to in your dream you can't, doesn't mean that you aren't still lucid.

Forgive me lucidnina for quoting partially what you had said to pertain to what I felt applied.

Anyway, the only "prelucid" term or experiance I am aware of would be (HI). And that is only a prelude to a lucid dream - somtimes.

[Seeker]

Welcome! You sound like a knowledgeable person. Always glad to have an experienced lucid dreamer on board.

I also am a little skeptical of your pre-lucid state. I always thought of that as just a low level lucid dream. I always get the JOLT of realization when I am lucid dreaming, for both my lower level and higher level dreams.

Not since the earliest days of my lucid dreaming however, have I feared bodily harm. By your definition then, are all my dreams truly lucid?

[Dream_Quake]

Hmmm. All of you make for great discussion--which is what this is all about. I plan to learn from you all, and you plan to learn from me; a healthy forum.

Do some reasearch from S.L. book "Exploring...", you will find he mentions the pre-lucid state several times.

It is very hard to describe. I think one of the problems is the literal word "lucid"--honestly you don't have to go there, I certainly know what the word means. But you are being literal, and labeling everything you "know to be a dream" as a lucid dream. I think my arguement isn't the literal term, but the word know as opposed to the word think.

Your dream ego will casually say, "I'm dreaming"--To all of you, the act of saying this, lables it a lucid dream. See, your dream ego may "know" it's dreaming, but you the dreamer...has yet to figure that out. Does that make sence. You may not fear bodily harm, and have never really feared it--but others, and many do fear bodily harm. Many times I've read on forums a person posting a lucid dream--but their dream egos are fearful of underwater breathing, or flying, or fire--in fact, most of these people never take control of their dreams both from ignorace of power, or conscience choice. You may be an exception (although I fear I will hear everyone come back and thwart my attempts to enlighten you all).

I cannot tell you enough how the difference of becoming pre-lucid and lucid are. There isn't even a comparison. I often say in my dreams, "I'm dreaming, I can do this...and this..." but never do I truely understand. Never is there a dream quake. Never is there a break-down and rebuilding of the scene, and never do I have to use technique to stay lucid or asleep.

Also let me state for the record--pre-lucid dreams OFTEN lead to lucidity. It is the gate-way state. ;0)--all you have to do is say, "Taxi!" and lucidity is yours. Almost every PLD I have nowadays becomes fully lucid.

Check it out for yourself. We are here to learn from each other--if what you think I say is bullocks, then research it. If you cannot find a single reference to pre-lucid states, then so be it. But I'm sure Stephen and Patricia went through the same thing when they asked for grants for the first time.

"In dreams I have been deceived by similar illusions"
--Rene Descarte

[TygrHawk]

I think the experience is different for each person. Okay, so you don't have to use any techniques to have LDs -- that doesn't mean that those who do are having dreams that are any less lucid than yours. Also, I've never experienced this "shaking" you refer to, but have had some extremely vivid LDs where I knew that I could do anything I wanted -- and did so without fear. I just don't think that everyone necessarily fits neatly into the categories you are describing, or at least do not exhibit the same characteristics as you do.

Now, I have certainly had some (what I would call) "semi-lucid" dreams, where the consciousness of being in a dream was somewhat tenuous, and the ability to control things was sporadic at best. If you want to call that "pre-lucid", I guess that's okay, but it doesn't seem like a very precise term to me, since it doesn't usually lead into a fully lucid dream (at least for me).

[Dream_Quake]

I'm only grabbing from the gurus what I've learned--and learned from personal experience. I'm not trying to fit anybody into any category.

However, I don't understand how you could all become lucid without any "feeling" or "event" that is a disturbance in the dream realm. When you mention that I don't have to use techniques to produce lucidity, you are mis-reading my post. I said I don't have to use technique to continue a pre-lucid dream. But in a lucid dream, almost every time I have to use technique to stay in the dream. (i.e. rubbing hands together, spinning)--I was referring to staying IN the dream...not WILDs or MILDs.

There are certain things you all could try and accept from new research, or experienced oneironauts. (not that pre-lucidity is new, but coming from MY mouth it is) I read on your tutorial section terms like NILD. Nap Induced Lucid Dreams. Now come on--that is a term YOU guys made up. I've never heard that until now. Sure, mid-day naps have always been a great way to become lucid--but it's not a technique like Mnemonic Induced Luicid Dreams. Just because it doesn't come from Stephen, or Patricia doesn't make it wrong. I have researched this. I would not come to a board where I'm not well-read on a subject and tell people they are wrong. If they know they know. If they've heard of it, they've heard of it.

I am not flaming at all. I promise. I am not upset at all. (although my picture may show differently--it's a still from a zombie film I was in. lol) I am passionate. And I want you all to try and see the light from another source.

I do agree that everyone's lucid dreaming experience is different. It's just wierd that my experiences house the same experiences that I've read in books--but none of you claim to have them. It's interesting to me.

Thanks all...

[Howie]

Well we certainly can't get very far by being narrow minded. I came up with a saying for such a discussion;
I will not let my life be contained by a narrow mind and it's confindments. JC</span>

Anyway.........could you explain a little more in detail about <span style="color:darkred">prelucids?

[Dream_Quake]

Will do. As soon as I get home from work.

For now, go through all my posts up above and re-read them. I feel I've explained them quite well. When I get home, however, I will give a nice explanation, and some examples.

Thanks guys.,

[nina]

Gosh alot has happened here since last I looked haha...debate on!

[LewisM]

A lot of people have experience with being in a lucid dream and shouting something such as 'CLARITY' or 'LUCIDTY'. This is said to improve the clarity of the dream with a shock... perhaps this is the transferral from what is called a Pre-Lucid to a Lucid dream.

Maybe we'll be seeing the term 'pre-lucid' occuring in a tutorial soon ;D

[sensi]

Well I find this an interesting topic, not sure where I stand but I will say this….

When I first started to lucid dream it happened by accident. Once I knew what was happening I researched it and became a lot more powerful and in control in that realm through practice.

I must say though that I never experience what you call the ‘pre lucid’ thing because from the word go I had no doubts really. I would fly straight away, I would dive out of moving cars, and I morphed into other peoples bodies. I was not really afraid of anything. I did not really fear for my physical body at all and I did not accept any boundaries of normal reality. I would try things and most of the time they worked the first time. Only a few things took time like manifesting a phone and dialling out, this took three attempts i think. Also I have not be able to master breathing underwater. The only fear I did really have would have been a spiritual one as I am still undecided on what realm it is when you are lucid.

Sometimes I would realise I was lucid within the dream and other times it would be WILD. Either way it was the same feeling for me. Sometimes it would not be as stable as others but that is about the only difference.

Up until a few months ago all was sweet. I had this most bizarre experience which I’m still trying to work out and understand. This experience gave me a spiritual fear. It actually put me off being lucid so I actively tried not being lucid. This worked for a month or two then I just started being lucid again and not being able to stop it, even having WILDS without trying. It was just happening so I went with it. My point being when I resumed my lucid state the second time I had lost my powers so to speak. My intentions were there but my power had seemed to have disappeared. One example - I go to walk through a window on a second story building and fly. The dam window just opens and I fall out. As I was falling I thought fuck I hope this isn’t real……. Anyway after practicing a bit I relearned how to fly again and am starting to gain my confidence back.

I guess everyone has different experiences........

Peace Sensi

Edit - ok i just lied, ha ha, i read back on a few of my first posts and it did take me a while to get sorted but once i gained confidence i was sweet so in actual fact it did take some time, maybe 3 or so weeks? Still can't fire light boltz out of my hands, dam, i actually forgot i wanted to. Funny what you forget. So in fact my post is just rambling nonsense........Oh well at least i'm honest.......

[Dream_Quake]

I'll try to state the main things that differentiate a pre-lucid dream from a lucid.

--When I'm in a non-lucid state, going about my dream, and my dream ego notices something, and comes to the conclusion that he is dreaming--he may say, "I'm dreaming. This is great" (this is the standard distinction of a lucid dream). But, if my dream ego, and only my dream ego know this--it will remain a pre-lucid dream. I will in a manner "be myself" Michael...and there is certainly a feeling of lucidity. There may even be a dream-shift in goals or decisions. But there will not be a dream quake and melding of my waking ego with my dream ego. In pre-lucid states, I never experience a dream-quake, or a disturbance in the dream world. I never have to focus and keep myself lucid, and in the dream. But in a lucid dream, however, there is a drastic shift in reality. There is a massive collision of egos, and my world (like I've said) is broken down, and rebuild--it is very hard for me to remain focused and lucid. And the difference in clarity, and the realness of my world is ten-fold as real in lucid dream as opposed to pre-lucid.

Obviously I've brought up a term you are all unaware of. I'm almost positive that I've read this very term in multiple books. I will diligently search this out. But regardless of the terms origin, noone can ignore the formula which I witness again and again. It's like clockwork to me--the difference between the two states.

What confuses me, is that all of you feel the same way as the other does. That this pre-lucid state that I speak of is one and the same to true lucidity. Noone seems to share this gateway moment, just before lucidity has the opportunity to take place. It's as if all of you skip this phase or state, and go straight to lucid dreaming. Also, to me, it seems that your lucid dreams are not nearly as mind-blowing as mine--sorry, I should rephrase that, not to belittle anyones experience (for I do not know the calibre of others' dreams) it seems that none of you have the same experience the moment lucidity occurs-- My lucid dreams, the moment they occur, are as if a divine being has taken my "real" body, and thrown it violently into another dimension (the dream dimension)--the experience is other-worldly. I can truely SEE when this happens...I see with my waking eyes the world in front of me. None of you seem to have this. Although it was described above by Nina, that her clarity and vision is so clear, it is even more real that waking life--I've heard this many times in the books that I've read, the testimonies of lucid dreamers. And yes, of course--THAT is lucidity.

Please come again....;0)

Yrs,

[wombing]

firstly, i have only had one fully lucid dream. by that i mean, i was fully aware that i was dreaming. i repeatedly thought "my physical body is in my bed sleeping, how cool is that". i was absolutely aware that no physical harm could come to my physical body, and that the only limitations during this dream were self-imposed.

granted, i didn't do anything all that spectacular. however, this is only because i wished to increase the duration of the dream, and wished to avoid overexcitement. hence i spent the majority of it merely observing the mind-blowing intricacy of my environment, and my replicated body. in a certain way, it was more realistic than most of my waking life (i explicitly compared the level of awareness/realism to that i typically experience on psilocybin mushrooms, which is heightened, and produces a 'hyper-reality").

aside from this fully lucid dream, i have had around 20 others of varying clarity, none of which i was fully lucid within. by that i mean i was aware that i was dreaming, but did not grasp the full implications of this fact.


it seems to me you are hung up on the 'melding' of your two egos, and the resulting quake. this is all well and good. it is evident that this phenomenon occurs each time you attain full lucidity.

however, to imply that other people have never experienced the same 'hyper-reality' as yourself, simply because they do not experience such a dramatic shift, is close-minded and dogmatic.

you referenced 'Exploring the world..". So i will reference the portion where he discusses Opensky's (sp) assertion that saying one's own name while dreaming is impossible. Another oneironaut 'verified' this experience in her own carving dream.
both people claimed that you always wake up as a result of saying your own name.
you will recall Stephen easily dismissed this as a completely unbased generalization. i myself have done so.

i place your assertion that a very specific, dramatic "melding"/quake is always required in order to be fully lucid into a similar category of ignorance. perhaps for yourself-all well and good. but to make your personal ritual a generalization by which to judge the level of every oneironaut's LDs strikes me as unbased arrogance.


i completely agree that many lucid dreams are not fully lucid dreams. however, everything operates in degrees. it seems semantics is all that is causing confusion here.

your 'pre-lucids" are merely many peoples "low-level lucids".

i place all my 'low-level lucids' into your 'pre-lucid' category if that is what you wish. but i certainly refuse to demote my fully lucid dream, merely because i did not experience your personal idiosyncracy. and i also believe others on this site who have experienced comparable, or greater levels of lucidity as yourself have good reason to take offense at your insistence in this matter.

good topic, and glad to see you on the forum