Thread: If waking life is a dream, how could we really wake up?

Wow - lots of thoughts.

I no longer believe in coincidence, though I do believe in solidness of this particular reality that we happen to be sharing. I also believe that most people spend their lives in a state of near complete... whatever the opposite of lucidity is.

The thing about reality that escaped me for decades is that it is utterly transient. The ONLY reality that we are capable of experiencing is this moment. That one that just blew past is gone, and the next one coming down the road may or may not arrive. NOW is all that is real. All the rest is illusion. Memories, fantasies, whatever... it is all illusion. None of the rest is real.

Waking up, for me, involves staying in the moment and investing everything I have in it. The things fighting against me include memories, anticipation, analysis and even to a great degree reason. My "inner voice" is constantly seeking to divert me from reality and back into illusion. When I'm not focused on reality, I'm not lucid to that reality.

My "reality checks" for waking life consist mostly of monitoring what I'm thinking about. I seek to silence that inner voice. I do not permit it to delve into "why" unless there is a very practical and immediate reason for doing so, and then only long enough to accomplish the goal at hand.

Much of this goes back to an awakening I had several years ago when I realized that my discontent and borderline misery weren't rooted in anything real. Yes, things happen and some of them are bad - but how often are those bad things really happening? Comparing the time spent enduring a bad event to the time spent revisiting it and I had my answer. Add the time I spend anticipating bad things and the answer grows even weightier. So I made a simple decision - to be happy. Period.

I think that is my most reliable reality check. If I'm not happy, then I've lost lucidity.

And as far as those amazing things that happen, I find them coming more and more often when I simply let them. Call it what you will - I'm not anywhere near a "name it and claim it" kind of guy, but I do know that when I bring my intent on something, it happens. This wasn't true before making that decision to wake up.

Thanks for your thoughts, PJ – spoken like a true Buddha! I agree with pretty much everything you say.

About coincidences, I’m very close to “no longer believing in them” at all anymore – just like you. But then comes the question: if there are no coincidences... what is going on? I mean, really: just what the hell is going on, please!? (Are we even able to grasp what is going on?). Do you have any theories about this?

I also agree that most people seem to live out their lives on automatic, like zombies (not your words). Almost in the same way that most of our non-lucid dreams happen: we are just swept along on automatic...

Also, when you talk about “silencing the inner voice”, I don’t suppose you mean silencing the process of rational thought, right? I presume that you mean silencing what some have referred to as the “chattering monkey” inner voice that does indeed invariably take us out of the moment and uses up mental energy on wasteful thoughts... Right?

Although I sometimes wonder what it would be like to silence all inner voices completely (British psychologist Susan Blackmore did a lot of experimenting with this herself). Maybe I should try attempt this “total inner silence” at some stage...

But you are right: only the moment exists, all the rest is fantasy.

Everything has a reason simply because everything has a cause. Coincidences happen because certain conditions were met on both the dealer's and receiver's ends. There is no supreme purpose for the small things. I doubt the universe would differ much twenty years down the road if I farted now, or a second from now. The illusion of fate occurs because as time moves forward, the past becomes permanent (which is a great reason to let go of the superfluous feeling of regret).

But yeah, back to lucidity. I agree completely on the automaton zombie subject. Here's my example:

Two teens meet at Wal-Mart.
"Hey."
"Hey."
"Whusup."
"Nothin."
"Oh."
"Whatcha lis'nin to."
"________."
"Cool."

And they say it just like that. Every single one of them. Without emotion or thought, it's as if they aren't even aware that they are greeting each other! I hated certain elements of school. Specifically the bell. People hear it and stand up and leave on impulse, not because they must get to their next class.

The truth is, we are conditioned beings. Even earthworms can be conditioned. But how many species have the ability to become aware of the process, and when they partake in it? How many individuals of said species, do you think, take the initiative to actually think about it?

Originally Posted by three and four

Ok, I’m sure that this question must have been raised on some other thread before, so if anyone can point me to it, please do, and this thread need not be.

My question is this: if what we consider to be “real” / waking life is in fact some sort of dream (or Matrix-like experience), how do we: 1. know, 2. wake up (if indeed waking up is the best thing to do. Suicide does not seem to be an option) 3. gain more lucidity.

What would the waking life equivalent of “dream signs” be? I’ve had quite a number of very unlikely coincidences happen to me over the years which, depending on my mood, make me very suspicious about the nature of reality.

Any thoughts?

My advice to U is....do not even think that waking life may be a dream. If U do, it will screw U up.....trust me it will eventually, without Ur knowing.
U become too convinced that what U see and experience as waking reality is no longer valid and U will have trouble separating the two at a subconcious level. Stop it.....waking reality is REAL....try jumping off Ur window now and see what happens.... That is the dreamsign of reality...U will die.

IMJ

Originally Posted by three and four

About coincidences, I’m very close to “no longer believing in them” at all anymore – just like you. But then comes the question: if there are no coincidences... what is going on? I mean, really: just what the hell is going on, please!? (Are we even able to grasp what is going on?). Do you have any theories about this?

I have some vague impressions - impressions that are increasingly derived from my lucid dreaming experiences. No... I don't think we are able to grasp what is going on, at least not in terms of understanding and reason. We are, perhaps, able to form analogies and descriptions, but those too are functions of reason. I have come to believe that reason is not an effective tool in discerning these deeper truths or the most simple and complete moment of reality. Reason does have its place in maintaining our physical existence, but recognizing that it is a limited tool with a specific purpose is essential. Reason is a reflective device that produces prediction, expectation and anticipation. All of those are diversions from the moment.

I also agree that most people seem to live out their lives on automatic, like zombies (not your words). Almost in the same way that most of our non-lucid dreams happen: we are just swept along on automatic...

Exactly - and I think we are living in a non-lucid dreamlike state when we are immersed in reason, and even more so when we are at the mercy of the "monkey voice."

These views are very much influenced by my lucid experiences. How is it we "make things happen" (if that's even what it is) in our lucid dreams? What is the mechanism that we employ to pass through walls, fly and all else that happens in our dreams? We simply become aware that we can, and we do. We don't need to reason out the methodology or understand the underlying mechanisms that result in our will being made "real".

Also, when you talk about “silencing the inner voice”, I don’t suppose you mean silencing the process of rational thought, right? I presume that you mean silencing what some have referred to as the “chattering monkey” inner voice that does indeed invariably take us out of the moment and uses up mental energy on wasteful thoughts... Right?

Both, actually. Reason is necessary for physical survival. I obviously have commitments and responsibilities... to those physical ends, reason serves me well and is completely necessary. The "chattering monkey" seems to serve no purpose whatsoever and only disturbs my inner peace and happiness, so I do strive to keep that one gone. But I also try to limit the application of reason to those areas where it is an effective tool, and recognize when it either interferes with or even precludes experience. That's a pretty new idea to me and a learning curve I've only recently embarked on.

Although I sometimes wonder what it would be like to silence all inner voices completely (British psychologist Susan Blackmore did a lot of experimenting with this herself). Maybe I should try attempt this “total inner silence” at some stage...

It is challenging. I'm not even sure I've ever really fully experienced it, because there seem to be layers of "voices". The lowest level and most damaging is that "monkey voice" you refer to - the voice that is constantly picking fights, cutting me down, reminding me of failures, anticipating doom, etc. It is utterly negative. Riding above that is a much more positive and quieter "voice" - the one I work at staying in much of the time. But there are other times that voice, too, needs to just shut up, and it is only with the complete silencing of all those voices that I can truly be in the moment and fully immersed in reality. But even above that quieter, positive voice, there is a sort of observational voice that continues trying to translate experience into lingual terms - an interpreter, I guess. That is the one I don't know that I've ever managed to really silence completely.

Originally Posted by three and four

My question is this: if what we consider to be “real” / waking life is in fact some sort of dream (or Matrix-like experience), how do we: 1. know, 2. wake up (if indeed waking up is the best thing to do. Suicide does not seem to be an option) 3. gain more lucidity.

If death will tell you the answer, then all you have to do is wait, and then you will have a very long time to figure it out. But I guess you are impatient and want to know now.

Originally Posted by three and four

What would the waking life equivalent of “dream signs” be? I’ve had quite a number of very unlikely coincidences happen to me over the years which, depending on my mood, make me very suspicious about the nature of reality.

Since I know those kind of "dream signs" can be chemically induced, I'm suspicious of the nature of them, rather than the other way around. The chemically induced experiences don't hold up when closely examined; if they did, we could all take acid and know the answer. I'm not sure that the same things that happen to the brain under those conditions can't happen on a very low-level at other times (random fluctuations of the neurotransmitters, single brain cell malfunctioning, etc), giving odd significance and unlikely connections to occurrences which "in reality" are not actually significant or connected. Just something to consider, not saying anybody is crazy or anything. (I guess I had the opposite results of most people; instead of expanding my consciousness, I realize how easily it can be manipulated with chemistry.)

Do we see patterns where none exist? It seems to be a human tendency.

Originally Posted by three and four

I also agree that most people seem to live out their lives on automatic, like zombies (not your words). Almost in the same way that most of our non-lucid dreams happen: we are just swept along on automatic...

Unfortunately, even my lucids are like that. I was just thinking about that today (by coincidence! ); it was something like this: No wonder I am so oblivious in lucid dreams (having trouble remembering my priorities, easily distracted, etc) when I am the same way in real life! So (for the millionth time) I was trying to think of some ways to keep myself more aware. I've gotten used to the new RC-reminders I made recently and ignore them now; miss dream-signs constantly, etc. It's a constant struggle. So I don't think I can expect to move onto any higher leve of awareness any time soon.

Originally Posted by three and four

Although I sometimes wonder what it would be like to silence all inner voices completely (British psychologist Susan Blackmore did a lot of experimenting with this herself). Maybe I should try attempt this “total inner silence” at some stage...

Lol, yea I"ve tried that too--how she says not to make any conscious decision about what you are going to do, then observe what you do. You will still turn the wheel of your car if you are driving, etc. It's a very strange feeling. Not that I can do it for very long. I think it helps you to understand how free will may be an illusion too, which was her purpose, right?

Originally Posted by three and four

But you are right: only the moment exists, all the rest is fantasy.

No one can argue with that. Except maybe Einstein. As it applies to us, however, that is surely true.

Originally Posted by Abra

The illusion of fate occurs because as time moves forward, the past becomes permanent (which is a great reason to let go of the superfluous feeling of regret).

Another good reason not to feel regret is that you just don't know what would have happened if you had made another decision about anything. So what if you didn't do that really stupid thing that you wish you hadn't done? Maybe you would be dead or something by another chain of events set off by that different decision. That's why I try not to regret things.

Originally Posted by Abra

The truth is, we are conditioned beings. Even earthworms can be conditioned. But how many species have the ability to become aware of the process, and when they partake in it? How many individuals of said species, do you think, take the initiative to actually think about it?

Not many, I think.

We as humans share some reality based on the fact that we perceive things in the same way more or less (as far as our senses and notions of causality and so forth). This lies on the fact that I believe in autonomy, and agency. We might not be able to perceive much beyond the observable, or truly explain all the unobservables, but that only determines our reality.

Something lies beyond, in higher dimensions, higher levels of consciousness, but can humans reach these higher levels? I'd argue no. We do the best we can with science to explain these things, but I don't believe we have the capacity to transcend this world, at least not in life. Take time for example. We understand it as a linear progression because that is how we experience it. We have theories that it operates other ways, and can explain them mathematically, but I don't see us seeing in four dimensions like the Trafalmadorians, we just don't have the capacity.

If life is really like the Matrix, so be it, that's as real as I need. I'll take it as it comes, try to explain and understand what I can, and enjoy the ride.

Oh, and as far as people going through life on autopilot, yeah, damn our brains and hardwiring themselves. It is however useful for getting by, but it doesn't dominate my life. I agree with pj here, on his philosophy for daily life, even if not on his notion of reality. I'm more or less a determinist as well, so I don't believe in coincidence either.

We are dreaming our own personal dream while we are awake, but we are also part of a corporate dream, the dream of all people,... the "big dream".

... just realize that you are dreaming.

"The seminal Chinese philosopher Chuang Tzu dreamed he was a butterfly. Upon awakening, he wondered whether he was a man who had dreamed he was a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming he was a man. Chuang Tzu's musings underscore a fundamental truth: life is like a dream." http://www.plotinus.com/zhine_tibeta...yoga_part2.htm

Great thread, and great insights PJ (and everyone else).

We all see waking life through our own filters (physical, mental, emotional) so it becomes a question not only of waking up to that fact, but learning to control those filters during waking life as we do in lucid dreams.

But I think as long as you are aware that your thoughts, feelings, opinions, etc are all part of your own personal filter, or "dream", you can be considered to be awake on some level.

The problem with philosophy is that it can go unbearably deep.

I think we should take life -and dreams- as they come at us and accept the circumstances we may not understand.

Originally Posted by imj

My advice to U is....do not even think that waking life may be a dream. If U do, it will screw U up.....trust me it will eventually, without Ur knowing.
U become too convinced that what U see and experience as waking reality is no longer valid and U will have trouble separating the two at a subconcious level. Stop it.....waking reality is REAL....try jumping off Ur window now and see what happens.... That is the dreamsign of reality...U will die.

IMJ

Yes i know what you mean, thinking life is not real may corrupt you and make you turn into a criminal, killing people and just thinking it doesn't matter.

Originally Posted by Dreamhope11

Yes i know what you mean, thinking life is not real may corrupt you and make you turn into a criminal, killing people and just thinking it doesn't matter.

Remember, sitting bull thought his dreams were real and life was fake.

Learning that the fabric and substance of "reality", is basically the same as dreams, will help you master reality.

Reality is malleable.

Reality is malleable
------------------
On that note so are humans, the ones who you say are zombies so to speak, they live there lives on autopilot so heavily they are easy to influence,and kind of corrupt I guess.
I find morals are one of the main things that tie you to reality and stop you from being a zombie, because without morals or beliefs we are nothing.
Hmmmm the philosophical musings of a fifteen year old boy.......

Here are some excellent insights into the nature of reality...

Esoteric Agenda, part 12
Esoteric Agenda, part 13

The best thing you could do is take the blue pill

Originally Posted by three and four

Ok, I’m sure that this question must have been raised on some other thread before, so if anyone can point me to it, please do, and this thread need not be.

My question is this: if what we consider to be “real” / waking life is in fact some sort of dream (or Matrix-like experience), how do we: 1. know, 2. wake up (if indeed waking up is the best thing to do. Suicide does not seem to be an option) 3. gain more lucidity.

What would the waking life equivalent of “dream signs” be? I’ve had quite a number of very unlikely coincidences happen to me over the years which, depending on my mood, make me very suspicious about the nature of reality.

Any thoughts?

Die. If we are still there we are awake, if we are not still there then we never existed in the first place.

Three and Four, and pj: you guys should share some of these experiences that you are talking about, if they are not too personal.

Oh, I’ve been away a few days, so I’ll try and catch up...

Who I Am and Captain Sleepalot, I agree with you: I do suspect that more awareness of how we function and why we function that way (leading us to free ourselves from pre-conditioning) is probably the key being more “awake”. But I find it so difficult!!

I wonder: is there a level of “total freedom” that could be reached once all, or as much as possible, of our pre-conditioning is stripped away? What would that feel / look like? (Or is this thinking too far? Is it possible? Has anybody on this site reached that stage and would they tell us what it’s like?!).

MrBeelzy, you write: “Something lies beyond, in higher dimensions, higher levels of consciousness, but can humans reach these higher levels? I'd argue no.”

But then... if we can’t reach them, how can we even suspect they are there??

Dreamhope11, you say: “Yes i know what you mean, thinking life is not real may corrupt you and make you turn into a criminal, killing people and just thinking it doesn't matter.” Well, even if you think that prison isn’t real, once you’re in it for 30 years you’ll probably suffer just the same!

Somethingereva, you say “I find morals are one of the main things that tie you to reality and stop you from being a zombie, because without morals or beliefs we are nothing.”. I’d say it depends where the morals come from: coz if they’re 19th century morals about sex, I’d say we’re better off without them! So... what is the source of your morals? (I’m not saying we should not have them!).

PJ, with all respect, , I can’t agree that using reason takes us out of the moment. Our reason is pretty much the best tool we have at this stage, so please don’t junk it! Getting our minds wrapped up in jealousy, fear, anger – yes, these things do all drag us away from what is “real”. But think of something really simple: close your eyes and visualize a square, know that its four sides are equal, that each angle is 90 degrees, “see” that perfect shape. There: you just used “reason” to do some basic geometry: don’t tell me that this took you out of the moment! (I’ve not read Plato’s Theory of Forms lately, but I think he says something along these lines: that “ideas” such as geometric forms are in fact more “real” than everyday reality...).

Moonbeam, the experiences I’m talking about are things that a lot of people have had a taste of at some stage or another: for some reason you keep thinking of someone you’ve not seen (or thought about) for ten years and then, the next day, you get a letter from them. Recently, my girlfriend and I had a strikingly similar dream on the very same night. These are just two examples of the type of thing that has happened to me often enough to get me suspecting that there is “something more” going on than is explained by currently accepted mainstream theories. I seem to find that these coincidences happen more frequently when I’m “in the moment”, focused, relaxed, in good health, and not wrapped up in negative stuff...

The problem is, there are a lot of crackpots out there who will come out with hundreds of far-fetched explanations which makes it all very confusing (I can’t take seriously the idea that this is all some sort of alien experiment being run on a supercomputer...). So right now I’m trying to look at just one of the possible explanations: that “reality” is some sort of dream... But I really would like to try and build an understanding of what’s going on based on elements that make sense, ie that don’t require a sudden illogical “suspension of reason”. You know?

If it is all a dream, I've no idea who the dreamer might be!

Originally Posted by three and four

The problem is, there are a lot of crackpots out there who will come out with hundreds of far-fetched explanations which makes it all very confusing (I can’t take seriously the idea that this is all some sort of alien experiment being run on a supercomputer...). So right now I’m trying to look at just one of the possible explanations: that “reality” is some sort of dream... But I really would like to try and build an understanding of what’s going on based on elements that make sense, ie that don’t require a sudden illogical “suspension of reason”. You know?

Yea. I just can't get past the fact that I know the tendencies of my own mind towards superstition, magical thinking, etc. and I don't even believe in anything like that. I can imagine the "signs" that people who think it's possible think they are getting. Not saying that you are particularly susceptible to it; I think we all are--that's the problem. Isolating the facts to get that understanding is the hard part when you are dealing with subjective things like this.

If there were no coincidences, wouldn't that be an even bigger coincidence? Imagine all of the "close-call" coincidences that just miss, or the ones that we don't even notice. Patterns emerge from random numbers if they are infinite.

I'm still waiting for that proof that there is something more than on the surface too. There probably is but maybe our brains can't comprehend it (mine, at least .) Maybe it is in quantum mechanics but I don't undertand it enough to know.

Thanks for sharing. Maybe we can dream the answer. But it might be one of those things that goes away when you try to think about it.

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

Do we see patterns where none exist? It seems to be a human tendency.

I'd say it's more the other way around. I'd say everything (brave, I know) is a patterned mesh of causal links and we, as humans, have a dangerous tendency to overlook those patterns. Blame our monkey brain, or our limited perspective, but that seems to be our major problem.

I know this is an impossible exercise, but using your monkey brain, imagine living five hundred years ago when the earth was flat, was the center of the universe, gravity wasn't modeled, and so on and so forth. Consider all the patterns and relationships that they didn't grasp, and try to conceive of all the unknown patterns and relationships that must still remain unknown today. There's literally an infinite number.

All said, I'd say if at any given time, in any given situation, if you intuit that a pattern is present, you're more right than assuming that there is none at all.

That's a really interesting way of looking at things, SynapseSnap, but please, follow your reasoning all the way through: what conclusion does it lead you to? What is going on??! I'd like to hear what you think.

Originally Posted by SynapseSnap

All said, I'd say if at any given time, in any given situation, if you intuit that a pattern is present, you're more right than assuming that there is none at all.

I more or less agree with what your saying, being a determinist, and having a loose understanding of theoretical physics. However I think the last part of your post is wrong.

People may not have been able to accurately describe the nature of our solar system, or the Earth five hundred years ago, but this is only because of the prevalence of religious cosmological ideas, and a lack of understanding of forces like gravity. People didn't really intuit that there was a relationship between the sun and the Earth, it was observable.

Take alternative and folk medicines, or faith healing for example. I'm sure I'll get somebody here saying I'm wrong, but most alternative medicines have proposed effects that just do not exist. Reflexology, acupuncture, and other quackery really only employ the placebo effect, yet so many people believe that they will cure all their ailments. Watch some infomercials, you'll see so many products that make similar claims, and have no basis.

If more often than not when people intuit patterns they are right, then why do we see the prevalence of post hoc, correlation implies causation and other such logical fallacies? There are psychological phenomena that do the same thing. Look at pareidolia, and other forms of apophenia. The number of pseudoscientific beliefs, and conspiracy theories out there suggest quite the oppsite.