Thread: Lucid dreaming and introvertism don't mix..:(

I think that one thing that lucid dreams have shown me is that life seemed to be so real but now it's hard to know whether life itself is just an illusion.

Originally Posted by ThePhobiaViewed

I think that one thing that lucid dreams have shown me is that life seemed to be so real but now it's hard to know whether life itself is just an illusion.

Yeah, it makes us question our reality which I think is not meant to be questioned.....

IMJ

I'm fairly introverted, always have been but lucid dreaming has had the opposite effect on me. Based in my personal experience, I'd say introverted people and lucid dreaming is a great combo.

And yes, you don't need to reality check all the time. There are other ways, read dream journals, visit DV before bed, listen to dream related music, simply suggest you will be lucid, make up dream talismans, etc.. that can help you to become lucid.

I'm also introverted, but although I have not LD'ed yet. Everynight i meditate before bed and repeat to myself "It's only a dream" then, i write the phrase down about 20 times on paper, then i meditate some more and repeat lucid dreaming in my head.

I pass out, i wakeup and i don't remember a thing...!!!! lol

I'm introverted by nature too. I don't think I'd have the same problem as you. Philosophically I've got a firm grip on reality, and I'm not inclined to do constant reality checks. But I still worry sometimes that LDs, and making an effort to have LDs, set me apart and make it harder to overcome my anti-social side. I think you were right to post this.

I don't like techniques that over-emphasize frequent reality checks and questioning reality. I'd like to check the main tutorials here on DV and see if any of them go over the top. If you already have a specific tutorial in mind I think you should talk to the author.

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If it helps... I can explain the core of my philosophical beliefs. It's developed from the Turing Test. How could I prove that a machine had human intelligence? By showing that it can pass as human in conversation.

That's the best I can do for _any_ intelligence. You all seem so realistic, but I can't reach inside your head and find out if you're "real". How do I know you and everyone else aren't mindless robots just going through the motions of being human? I can't know for sure either way.

Weakly, I can say that there's no point trying to guess something you can't know. More strongly, I can say that if there's no difference between your behaviour and what I would expect from a human intelligence, then there *is* no difference.

I believe the same applies to reality. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. If it feels real, then it is.

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Disclaimer 1: Reading Peter Watts leads me to question my beliefs... but I would recommend avoid his writing unless you already have strongly positive beliefs. He's depressing :-).

Disclaimer 2: More specifically, I realise that humans can be impressed by very simple conversation programs, and will read deep insights where non exist. Myself, I've been fooled by "Bigmo", a large group of people who posted as a single user on DV; despite their incoherence and inconsistency I didn't realise what "Bigmo" was.

Originally Posted by guerilla

I pass out, i wakeup and i don't remember a thing...!!!! lol

My opinion is that if you don't have good recall you should work on that first. I think dreams are really interesting even without lucidity. The storylines, dialogue and general happenings are so weird, and yet it's possible to trace much of it back to our waking memories.

I'm very impressed by Vex Kitten's dream journal, not because of her lucids, but because she's so good at recall.

Originally Posted by guerilla

I'm also introverted, but although I have not LD'ed yet. Everynight i meditate before bed and repeat to myself "It's only a dream" then, i write the phrase down about 20 times on paper, then i meditate some more and repeat lucid dreaming in my head.

I pass out, i wakeup and i don't remember a thing...!!!! lol

LOL...I do remember doing what U did writing down on paper, it did give me a full blown lucid dream. I wrote "I will remember to check my watch and realize I'm dreaming" 10 times with real intent. I may try it again when I've sorted out this mess in my head.....

IMJ

Originally Posted by sourcejedi

I'm introverted by nature too. I don't think I'd have the same problem as you. Philosophically I've got a firm grip on reality, and I'm not inclined to do constant reality checks. But I still worry sometimes that LDs, and making an effort to have LDs, set me apart and make it harder to overcome my anti-social side. I think you were right to post this.

I don't like techniques that over-emphasize frequent reality checks and questioning reality. I'd like to check the main tutorials here on DV and see if any of them go over the top. If you already have a specific tutorial in mind I think you should talk to the author.

---

If it helps... I can explain the core of my philosophical beliefs. It's developed from the Turing Test. How could I prove that a machine had human intelligence? By showing that it can pass as human in conversation.

That's the best I can do for _any_ intelligence. You all seem so realistic, but I can't reach inside your head and find out if you're "real". How do I know you and everyone else aren't mindless robots just going through the motions of being human? I can't know for sure either way.

Weakly, I can say that there's no point trying to guess something you can't know. More strongly, I can say that if there's no difference between your behaviour and what I would expect from a human intelligence, then there *is* no difference.

I believe the same applies to reality. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. If it feels real, then it is.

---

Disclaimer 1: Reading Peter Watts leads me to question my beliefs... but I would recommend avoid his writing unless you already have strongly positive beliefs. He's depressing :-).

Disclaimer 2: More specifically, I realise that humans can be impressed by very simple conversation programs, and will read deep insights where non exist. Myself, I've been fooled by "Bigmo", a large group of people who posted as a single user on DV; despite their incoherence and inconsistency I didn't realise what "Bigmo" was.

Like in the Truman show if U've seen it, Christof says " We accept the reality with which we are presented.....it's as simple as that."

IMJ

Originally Posted by Vex Kitten

I'm fairly introverted, always have been but lucid dreaming has had the opposite effect on me. Based in my personal experience, I'd say introverted people and lucid dreaming is a great combo.

And yes, you don't need to reality check all the time. There are other ways, read dream journals, visit DV before bed, listen to dream related music, simply suggest you will be lucid, make up dream talismans, etc.. that can help you to become lucid.

Fortunately there are other ways of having them or I may end up in a Psychiatric Facility very soon if I carry on like this....

IMJ

I too am a very introverted person, but LD has had a great effect on me. It gives me a chance to do the impossible and not have to worry about moral codes and what others will think about me. I have noticed that i am a little more open now that i have been LDing b/c i havent needed to care in an LD and that has started to spill over into how i act in reality.

Now the RC check all the time hasnt seemed to have any real effect on my perception yet. I have always been one to question reality or to feel as if one day i will wake from this hell called reality. but doing RC more frequently hasnt made that feeling anyworse.

No one is more introverted than monks. Lucid dreaming in the east was perfected by monks.

If any thing ive found is Lucid Dreaming make u more confident and less anti social

Originally Posted by Vex Kitten

make up dream talismans

what are dream talismans?

OK, I said I was going to do this so I feel obliged to :-). I'm not going to go any further on my own.

I was impressed again by the quality of the tutorials on DV, but I do think there's a problem. There's a strong argument that tutorials should a) mention that reality testing might be a bad idea for some people and b) make sure they don't imply that there's no alternative to frequent reality testing. That's just my thoughts though; I expect anyone who's had problems with reality testing would be able to make more useful suggestions.

Here's a list of tutorials on DV that mention reality testing. You can see quotes I selected by clicking the "spoiler" buttons.

None of them directly include any sort of warning note. The first on the list is a front page on DV (not a normal tutorial), so it's the most prominent - and probably the hardest to change. The first two are the most important.

Dream Views homepage: Induction techniques
The DV front pages say a lot about reality testing as an induction method, strongly endorses it, and doesn't go into alternatives beyond a couple of links at the end.

Spoiler for Show quotes:

I’m going to focus on one particular technique here since it is the most common, the easiest to understand, and the easiest to use and achieve success with... As I alluded to above, reality checks can be performed upon seeing a dream sign, but also should be done routinely throughout the day without a dream sign as a preamble. A good idea is to assign certain times of the day to do reality checks, such as when you arrive home, or when you enter your bedroom, etc... You can also perform reality checks whenever you think about it during the day, or whenever something reminds you of your dreams... The more consistent you are at performing reality checks, the better your chances are of being able to induce a lucid dream.

Tutorial: Quick Start Tutorial
seeker's Quick Start Tutorial is also based on reality checks, and though it says "more advanced subjects are covered elsewhere", it implies that frequent reality checks are absolutely essential.

Spoiler for Show quotes:

Step 3 -Critical state testing

Ancient Tibetan monks stated that if you are to learn to question whether you are dreaming, you must ask no fewer than twenty-one times each day while awake.

Critical state testing must be performed regularly every day. You can set your watch to alarm every hour and perform a state test at that point, but remember, that will result in approximately 15 state tests per day. Remember though, the goal is to perform at least twenty-one state checks. The more often you ask yourself if you are dreaming, the more likely you will do so when you are asleep.

Tutorial: Reality Checks
This is really just a list of different reality checks. It doesn't say much about when or how often you should do them. However, it does say that reality testing is "necessary".

Spoiler for Show quotes:

Reality Checks are a necessary part of the Lucid Dreaming learning curve... As this becomes a day-to-day task in the waking world, it will become one in the dreaming world.

Tutorial: Introduction To Lucid Dreaming
There are four separate articles on this page; the second one deals with reality checks

Spoiler for Show quotes:

Submitted article #2: Reality Checks

Right now we'll be focusing on developing the habit of checking reality frequently. This has a very subtle effect on dreams and on your overall consciousness. It will make you more skeptical in dreams over time, which will eventually culminate in you realizing more dream signs. Thus, the main goal of reality checks it to raise your awareness to the level where you aren't just reacting to life, you're actually watching it objectively and questioning it.

Tutorial: FAQ
List of questions which includes an entry on reality testing.

Spoiler for Show quotes:

What is Reality Testing (RT)?

There are many ways of doing this, but it is good to ask yourself the question as many times as you can in a day... Hopefully as this becomes a day-to-day task in the waking world, it will become one in the dreaming world. It has been noted that things in the dream world seem very 'fuzzy' or words and letters tend to re-arrange themselves in the dream world... You should try this every time you can with reading something.