Thread: What if Lucid Dreaming is really just an illusion?

I thought about this, but as long as I have the illusion of control and lucidity, it doesn't really matter to me.

It's like the matter of free will in real life.

This thread reminds me of this thread.

Originally Posted by Xox

This thread reminds me of this thread.

huh . . .. I didn't see that.

You may or may not be right, but it makes no difference either way.
We still think we have a choice and get to do what we want, so thats all that matters.

You could say the same thing about life. Our thought processes are defined by the laws of physics, how our synapses formed, external factors etc... So really, choice is an illusion. The choices we make happen a specific way because they can only happen that way, so aren't really choices at all. But we perceive a choice, and thats all that matters.

I dont thing an illusion can let your mind feel so awake u no what i mean

Originally Posted by IZ

What if we are only dreaming that we are lucid, but are only following the role of the dream. Which sometimes happens to be the awarness of dreaming.

In this sense, everything is an illusion. You could ask the same thing about real life. The same machinery that presents you your dreamworld, presents you your real world. The difference is, in the "real world" you're obsessed with the moment, with what your senses are telling you.

Originally Posted by Wavefunction

I thought about this, but as long as I have the illusion of control and lucidity, it doesn't really matter to me.

It's like the matter of free will in real life.

^^^^^ what he said. Although I personally don't think it's an illusion. How do you create the illusion that you have power to do anything you want in a dream? I mean what if you want to fly but instead you end up travelling back in time to assassinate Hitler (not a bad second choice although the robot form was nigh impossible... lolololol Wolfenstein 3D reference). You get my point though. Or it would just seem like whatever you do is your choice. However I'm still inclined to disagree, for instance LaBerge would test people when they sleep aking them to as soon as they become lucid move their eyes back and forht rapidly, thus discovering that in your dreams your "dream eyes" look in the direction of your real eyes. This guy remembered and did the task, who would want to look back and forth rapidly? That person intentionally chose to do that. Thus proving IMO dream free will or that lucidity is not an illusion.

As said. As long as I can control stuff, it doesn't matter.

What is the concept of a Lucid Dream? A dream in which you know that you are dreaming. So, let's suppose you are only dreaming you're Lucid Dreaming.

If you're dreaming you're Lucid Dreaming, then you have the knowledge that what you experience is a dream. So, it falls into the concept of a Lucid Dream.

Dreaming you are Lucid Dreaming is dreaming lucidly, because you are aware of it being only a dream. The level of awareness may vary though, but that's another thing.

I mean, even in waking life, we only have the illusion of control.

Originally Posted by IZ

What if we are only dreaming that we are lucid, but are only following the role of the dream. Which sometimes happens to be the awarness of dreaming.

Maybe this could be why sometimes we become lucid and other times don't. And for newbies, they have a hard time at first because their sub-conscious takes time to adapt to the concept but they're urging for one until the sub-conscious agrees to perform one.

Therefore we arn't really in control but only perceive the illusion that we were or are at the time of the dream.

i dont think its an illusion because one night at a friends house i was Lding and in my ld i thought "im at my friends house ima wake up and tell him about this"

and i did

There are dreams like this. Where lucidity is an illusion, and we just aren't aware enough. Those are more shallow than other lucid dreams.

Originally Posted by Hiros

You may or may not be right, but it makes no difference either way.
We still think we have a choice and get to do what we want, so thats all that matters.

You could say the same thing about life. Our thought processes are defined by the laws of physics, how our synapses formed, external factors etc... So really, choice is an illusion. The choices we make happen a specific way because they can only happen that way, so aren't really choices at all. But we perceive a choice, and thats all that matters.

Well thats hardly something we can test now is it? You can't take a person back to identical circumstances with identical memories and see if he makes the same choice each time. So we don't really know if the mind makes precise calculated decisions or if there is a level of randomization.

Essentially its a question of fate vs free will. Is there only one possible end, or are there many possibilities?

The reason this particular question is interesting is that it leaves the possibility for either dreams or reality to not follow the same rule as the other. We could have no free will in our dreams and only think we do as we carry out a predetermined plot, OR we could have no free will in reality and only be able to make our own choices in dream where no outside influences can force an inevitable decision.

usually it feels different to me. there are times when I am aware that I'm dreaming, but when I wake up, I just know that I wasn't lucid dreaming (properly at least) and that I wasn't controlling my actions. When I actually do it right, it just feels as real as any moment of my waking life. Except I can do ANYTHING

Originally Posted by MadHatter17

Well thats hardly something we can test now is it? You can't take a person back to identical circumstances with identical memories and see if he makes the same choice each time. So we don't really know if the mind makes precise calculated decisions or if there is a level of randomization.

Essentially its a question of fate vs free will. Is there only one possible end, or are there many possibilities?

The reason this particular question is interesting is that it leaves the possibility for either dreams or reality to not follow the same rule as the other. We could have no free will in our dreams and only think we do as we carry out a predetermined plot, OR we could have no free will in reality and only be able to make our own choices in dream where no outside influences can force an inevitable decision.

Precisely. You can't test it. Even if you could, even the tiniest change would factor into the equation and change the outcome. Its that whole what you observe will also change thing.

But my point is that either way, it makes no difference. We perceive we are in control and making choices, and thats all that matters in the end.

What if life is just an illusion?
It's too easy for these people who have never LDed to say it's just in our heads; when really, I know I am in full control of my dreams when I go into them directly from the waking state.

I do not believe they are just illusions of us thinking we are dreaming.

What if we only "think" we are conscious right now. You see, there is no definite "counsciousness". You just have to assume that your current state of mind is considered conscious.

What if this whole world was just some movie for some other universe? You can just say what if to anything and not be able to prove it false but that does not make it false.

Reality is just an illusion.

Originally Posted by IZ

What if we are only dreaming that we are lucid, but are only following the role of the dream. Which sometimes happens to be the awarness of dreaming.

Maybe this could be why sometimes we become lucid and other times don't. And for newbies, they have a hard time at first because their sub-conscious takes time to adapt to the concept but they're urging for one until the sub-conscious agrees to perform one.

Therefore we arn't really in control but only perceive the illusion that we were or are at the time of the dream.

Yeah I thought about that too. There's already been done scientific research on this. Laberge and Alan Worsley have already investigated this. They found a way to communicate with the outside world while having a lucid dream, and thus proving that you are really in control of the lucid dream and that it is not an illusion.

Google for Laberge or Alan Worsley if you want to know more about the experiment that proves that you are really in control while having a lucid dream.