Thread: No More Doubts: What's A Lucid Dream?

I know you have a hard-on for 'false lucid dreams' as you call them, but the definition of a lucid dream is 'knowing that you are dreaming while dreaming'. Nothing more, nothing less. If you're aware that you're dreaming, then you're lucid dreaming. It's not a package deal complete with 100% understanding that your body is asleep, in a bed somewhere, nothing around you is real, there are no rules/consequences, you can summon or create anything youwant, etc. No: as long as you realize "This isn't reality- oh, it's because this is a dream," then you are lucid dreaming.

Lucid dreaming allows you the chance to understand the rest of those things, but doesn't imply that you do by default. Being fully aware of the implications of the fact that you're dreaming is icing on the awesome cake of lucidity. I'm sorry, but this is quite simply the definition of the term 'lucid dreaming' no matter how you feel about the ambiguity of it.

Dreams of lucid dreaming are just like any other non-lucid dream- you're not aware that you're dreaming, and you're dreaming about some concept.

Technically, Shift is right. However, she fails to understand the important message of this thread. I'm pretty sure we can all understand that a dream in which you are fully conscious is a very different and very recognizable phenomenon from regular dreaming. Many people call this phenomenon "lucid dreaming" incorrectly, but their message is still understood. In this case Mariano is explaining (although using "lucid dreaming" incorrectly) that there are dreams where you can know you are dreaming but not be conscious.

For instance, we could call the dreams where one is fully conscious, "conscious dreams". Mariano is explaining that although somebody may have a lucid dream, it will not necessarily be a conscious dream. I recommend you stop playing with definitions, because the message is rather easy to understand; you've simply locked your mind into thinking that lucid dreams are the extent of dreaming, where conscious dreams are equally important.

I see two problems here, one, it demands an high level of lucidity to count it as sucess, not much a problem, its the choice of each person anyway.
The real problem is the false lucid part, it doesn't matter how much lucid you may be, if there is the possibility of it being false, some people may think even the most lucid dream will be false, which would hurt newbies who aren't that good at the start (or newbies in general) and kill completely all the motivation. That, in my opinion, is an huge problem when trying to define LD.
Thats just a small part of it, but it will be unfortunate for the ones that get caught in it.
Other than that, I like the explaining.

Good points, Mariano. I think it was a rough draft. You could probably trim it down and say just as much.

If this Consciousness doesn't switch to ON, then, you are NOT lucid...
We can say that DOUBT is a crucial point. DOUBT = FALSE LUCID DREAM

I believe that is correct.

Definitions of Lucid Dreaming on the Web:
A lucid dream, also known as conscious dream, is a dream in which the sleeper is aware that he/she is dreaming.

A true experience should be undeniable. Much like the difference between watching a documentary and actually having experienced the events documented. You feel the experience resonating off of you. There is no doubt.

I agree that there are false lucid dreams. Because we understand the idea of Lucid Dreaming so well, we imagine we have one. But it's not the same.

There may also be crappy lucid dreams. My experience shows if I go to sleep kind of late, and wake up late, and if the lucid dreams occurs around 9-10 AM, I have very crappy lucid dreams. I know that I'm dreaming, but I feel very anxious, unsettled, without well-being. Probably due to oversleep or lack of sleep the previous night. They are still somewhat enjoyable, but nothing worth my time and patience to attain. My body and brain need good food, and good sleep, to have good lucid dreams. The best ones occur before the sun is up. The best ones are breathtaking experiences.

Newbies should not feel discouraged. Although it seems a solid wall, the wall of sleep is not too thick, and consciousness can break through.

You will know when it does.

man all i can say is that i loved to read this thread.

You explained in the perfect way what is an lucid dream...This will help so much the newbies...

shift : yeah, I agree with you in that part, maybe I put too much detail that weren't necessary

that there are dreams where you can know you are dreaming but not be conscious.

no, if you are not conscious, then you don't know you are dreaming, you just simply "try" to know you are dreaming...

I see two problems here, one, it demands an high level of lucidity to count it as sucess, not much a problem, its the choice of each person anyway.

maybe, but what I really tried to say is that when you are lucid, if you wake up, there is no doubt about what happened...

by the way, I don't want to hurt newbies, is good if they have FLD, but the only thing that they must do to transform that FLD into LD is very little = increase awareness ( on reality check, or in waking life)

There may also be crappy lucid dreams. My experience shows if I go to sleep kind of late, and wake up late, and if the lucid dreams occurs around 9-10 AM, I have very crappy lucid dreams. I know that I'm dreaming, but I feel very anxious, unsettled, without well-being. Probably due to oversleep or lack of sleep the previous night. They are still somewhat enjoyable, but nothing worth my time and patience to attain. My body and brain need good food, and good sleep, to have good lucid dreams. The best ones occur before the sun is up. The best ones are breathtaking experiences.

but these ARE lucid dreams, because you have NO DOUBT when you wake up, no matter if the clarity is horrible....

man all i can say is that i loved to read this thread.

You explained in the perfect way what is an lucid dream...This will help so much the newbies...

thank you..

I really like this talks.

bye!

by the way, I don't want to hurt newbies, is good if they have FLD, but the only thing that they must do to transform that FLD into LD is very little = increase awareness ( on reality check, or in waking life)

Yup, but the problem with that is, if you give them an high standard, it will cause these to happen in place of a LD because of placebo/autosuggestion, just like the myths with reading and pain and the like, and we don't want to start more myths for the newbies, do we?

I don't understood that...

It means: Subconcious of newbies will absorb the concept of a FLD and end up replying it when there is a chance of a LD, thus, ruining their LD experience.
Basically, a myth. Like the "you can't read, being excited wakes you, can't feel pain" in dreams, thing. Anyway, just recalled you speak spanish better, so if you want to keep discussing this, should be better of by PM lol (silly me...)

All I would say if people want to understand the concept of Lucid Dreaming and how far it can go; and this in that, read a book...

yeah I agree about the "switch", about waking up from a zombiefied delirium and becoming yourself. However you seem to mix that with levels of dream control. dream control VS levels of lucidity, is ineffable in my opinion- there are many guides about percentages, that kid on youtube made vids about the 5 "layers" of lucid dreaming- I think its much simpler- you are either lucid or not, you can have varying control and levels of consciousness that can vary from moment to moment.

However you seem to mix that with levels of dream control

but shift fixed it =P with her post.

you are either lucid or not, you can have varying control and levels of consciousness that can vary from moment to moment.

agree

hi, I made this graphic to aid the explanation of lucid dreaming.



I don't think that the graphic needs more explanation, it's very easy.

I would like to add some things:

The definition of lucid dreaming is:
Lucid dreaming is becoming aware that you are dreaming.
and it's right, no matter how aware,clear or vivid...

also:

Lucidity and Conscious go in the same hand.
Non-lucid = Unconscious (auto-pilot mode)
Lucid = Conscious (you know...it's like waking life)

about Dream Control:

I would say that control doesn't mean too much in a dream, because if you are controlling the dream, you can do it in a conscious or in a unconscious(auto-pilot mode) way.

the point is that Dream Control is different from Lucid Dreaming, has nothing to do with it, only the Consciousness or Unconsciousness of the control you are doing...

there are non-lucid dreams without control
there are non-lucid dreams with control(you have unconscious control)
there are lucid dreams without control(of certain things, like flying, also walking, or talking...)
there are lucid dreams with control(have fun! this is conscious control)


Why add a new term called False Lucid Dream?
it's just a new term.
people say that new terms complicate things....
then if new terms complicate things, why do we call "nightmares" to bad dreams?
why don't we call them just bad dreams..?
is the same thing...

So...

a False Lucid Dream is just a non-lucid dream, with different feelings, equally as a vivid non-lucid dream, or a non-lucid nightmare , they are still non-lucid.
People just have to learn to differenciate "being aware of dreaming", and "dreaming that being aware of dreaming"
and that difference can only be felt, not too explained.....


bye,

Very nice post, mariano. Good point about non-lucid / unconcious dream control still possible.

I experienced both LDs and fake LDs. But my fake LDs most certainly didn't fall under the definition of lucidity as "knowing that you're dreaming". It was vice versa, "dreaming that you know".

For example, sometimes I have fake OBE-dreams that go like this:

Often I dream of myself lying on my bed (sometimes in a totally fake dreamt-up room) and an association comes up with WIlDing\OBEing, and I think "Oh I should OBE right now"! Then I dream about the process of falling asleep and OBEing, quite realistically, but without any lucidity whatsoever. Then I have a dream of myself being in an OBE-induced dream, "knowing" that I'm dreaming. But there's no real lucidity there and I'm doing some ridiculous things there, uncontrollable by myself just like in all normal dreams.

Such dreams easily differ from real lucid dreams, so I don't know why this topic is so popular...

Originally Posted by Arutad

Such dreams easily differ from real lucid dreams, so I don't know why this topic is so popular...

I have trouble wrapping my head around it as well.

It's just that sometimes a newbie may not realize the difference between an actual lucid and fake lucid dream.

must we close this thread?
to not confuse anymore?

but what about those newbies that ask "was this a lucid dream" ? what if it wasn't actually one?

must we close this thread?
to not confuse anymore?

but what about those newbies that ask "was this a lucid dream" ? what if it wasn't actually one?

EDIT: OMG, DOBLE POST =P! how??

It's already all over the place that 'if you know that you are dreaming, you are lucid dreaming, regardless of HOW lucid you are/how much dream logic is going on/how hazy your thinking is', and yet the boards are still inundated with 'was this lucid' threads or threads by newbies where experienced dreamers are saying, "Hey you didn't have control but you did know you were dreaming, you were having one" or "by the definition of 'lucid dreaming', you were having one." Newbies are going to keep asking these questions and people are going to keep answering them on an individual and individual-dream basis.

Something could be written and stickied in the newbie zone, but in all honestly it won't be read by the majority of members and people are still going to want to ask, to get that individual personal verification to this thing that they are new to. When people read about the ideal lucid dream, with 110% clarity, control, and conscious, logical thinking they expect this, so when their first lucids are hazy, or they lose lucidity, or they don't stabilize and are still running around following their dream thinking instead of pausing and collecting themselves mentally, they think that this is surely not what lucid dreaming is. Or, some of them have a dream about being lucid, which is so close to incredibly shitty quality lucids that they are confused. They realize it was just a dream, but they're wondering how they managed to dream about the topic without actually becoming lucidbecause they're not familiar enough with dreams to realize that dreaming you are lucid is not the same as being lucid that you are dreaming. They don't understand how easy it is to dream about becoming lucid, or the topic of lucidity, without actually becoming lucid. I think it seems like, to them, if you are thinking about lucid dreaming in a dream then you must actually realize at the time that you are dreaming, but this is not the case. It's very easy to think about the concept of lucid dreaming without realizing you are in a dream. Typically, as soon as one has experienced a lucid dream it is very easy to distinguish between the two.

They're going to keep asking, and asking, and asking, and older members are going to keep explaining. But it's not a question of 'true or false' lucid dreaming, it's a question of "was it just a dream about X, where you didn't consciously realize you were dreaming just like any other old non-lucid", or "were you in a dream and knew you were dreaming?"

ok shift! yes you are right!
but I'm sure when one have this dreams about one becoming lucid, is because one is not doing the reality checks right...
I'm sure is that.
the point is, whenever you reality check, try to bring the mind to that moment, becoming extremely aware, so that you don't have problems on dreams.
I'm sure that's the point, that's why one can have dreams of being lucid, because one is not enough aware on RL or in the Reality Check. so when this happens, when you are in the dream, the brain doesn't know what is exactly to be merely AWARE because it hasn't experienced it yet in a good manner.

that's my point.

bye!
thanks for colaboration.