Thread: The stages of Sleep Paralysis

I think it is different for everyone. I personally never feel a numbness, neither do I try to identify stage two as you have put it.

For me to reach SP I tent to focus more on strong tactile sensations, which really only come in one stage. And what about HI/HS? This is all part of reaching SP.

Originally Posted by moonshine

Seems to me that there are a number of stages in SP.

1st is getting numb. When I say this I don't mean "absence of feeling". I mean numb like when you have a dead arm, or your mouth after having been to the dentist. That pins and needles feeling.

There is a second stage, which is the tingling wave that tends to come across your body (in me rising from head to toe).
A fairly gentle transitional experience, but not the main event.

Then theres the last stage, which is the traditional shake the bed vibrations which aren't real and you only feel in your as your mind dissconnects completely from your body.

Does this sound about right?

No, it sounds completely wrong. What you are describing here has absolutely nothing to do with sleep paralysis. The main symptoms of sleep paralysis are:

• Inability to move no matter how much you try.
• Intense fear.

Additional symptoms are often:

• A sensed presence of something evil in the room.
• A feeling of being crushed down by a heavy weight.

The following is a typical account of sleep paralysis:

As a college student in 1964, David J. Hufford met the dreaded Night Crusher. Exhausted from a bout of mononucleosis and studying for finals, Hufford retreated one December day to his rented, off-campus room and fell into a deep sleep. An hour later, he awoke with a start to the sound of the bedroom door creaking open--the same door he had locked and bolted before going to bed. Hufford then heard footsteps moving toward his bed and felt an evil presence. Terror gripped the young man, who couldn't move a muscle, his eyes plastered open in fright.

Without warning, the malevolent entity, whatever it was, jumped onto Hufford's chest. An oppressive weight compressed his rib cage. Breathing became difficult, and Hufford felt a pair of hands encircle his neck and start to squeeze. "I thought I was going to die," he says.

Most instances of "sleep paralysis" that you'll hear about from people here on Dream Views are entirely imagined. Also, when it comes to lucid dreaming, sleep paralysis is a red herring.

Originally Posted by Thor

Also, when it comes to lucid dreaming, sleep paralysis is a red herring.

What makes you say this? There have been numerous occasions where I have awoken in sleep paralysis and entered a lucid dream. And similarly fallen into SP before WILD.

There are two types of sleep paralysis and you only mention one above, hypnopompic paralysis. Are you aware of hypnogogic paralysis, the paralysis experienced before sleep? Doesn't sound like you are. Sleep paralysis as you explained is characterized by temporary paralysis of the body shortly after waking up but a lot of people experience this before going to sleep, which is why you hear people talk of it.

Physiologically, it is closely related to the paralysis that occurs as a natural part of REM sleep. Sleep paralysis occurs when the brain awakes from a REM state, or shortly before entering leaving the person fully aware, but unable to move.

This also leads on to the term hypnogogic imagery (HI), or hypnogogic sounds (HS) which is also experienced when reaching SP before you WILD.

I wouldn't say that 'Intense fear' is a main 'symptom' of sleep paralysis, because if you are informed about what it is, it's exciting. Plenty of people, particularly on this site who are informed about what SP is and how it can be used to aid LDing, look forward to and enjoy SP experiences. It varies between people and between individual experiences. Sometimes I get vibrations. Sometimes I fall. Sometimes I hear or see things. Sometimes I just can't move. The majority of the time I don't even notice that I'm in sleep paralysis and I just zonk out for that sleep period, so I wouldn't presume to say that I could define all of the stages, even if they did hold steady from one experience of SP to the next. But they don't. So there is no way to define them like that. It's entirely too subjective of an experience and too random. You could keep track of your personal SP experiences, and note that that is the order it always occurs in, but that's definitely not the strict way that SP goes. Even when WILDing you don't necessarily experience the presence of SP.

Originally Posted by Adam

What makes you say this? There have been numerous occasions where I have awoken in sleep paralysis and entered a lucid dream. And similarly fallen into SP before WILD.

Maybe I should clarify: if you are one of the few people who really get sleep paralysis, it's great if you can turn it to your advantage and initiate lucid dreams from it. But if you are not one of those people, which is true for the majority, it's just stupid to seek this experience, because it's fully possible to WILD without it.

There are two types of sleep paralysis and you only mention one above, hypnopompic paralysis. Are you aware of hypnogogic paralysis, the paralysis experienced before sleep? Doesn't sound like you are. Sleep paralysis as you explained is characterized by temporary paralysis of the body shortly after waking up but a lot of people experience this before going to sleep, which is why you hear people talk of it.

No, that's not entirely correct. The real distinction is not hypnagogic versus hypnopompic but common sleep paralysis versus hallucinatory sleep paralysis. Also, sleep paralysis most often occurs when waking up and rarely when falling asleep.

Furthermore, sleep paralysis of any kind is relatively rare. One particular study says:

To further examine the incidence of sleep paralysis, the responses of 80 first-year medical students, 16.25% had experienced predormital, postdormital, or both types of sleep paralysis. These episodes occurred infrequently-- only once or twice for most of these students.

So 16.25% had experienced SP maybe one or two times. Compare that with Dream Views where everyone and his brother claims to have "sleep paralysis" almost every night. I call BS.

Physiologically, it is closely related to the paralysis that occurs as a natural part of REM sleep. Sleep paralysis occurs when the brain awakes from a REM state, or shortly before entering leaving the person fully aware, but unable to move.

Yeah, I know the theory. Though if that happens, there is clearly something wrong with you.

This also leads on to the term hypnogogic imagery (HI), or hypnogogic sounds (HS) which is also experienced when reaching SP before you WILD.

Hypnagogic hallucinations are perfectly normal and do not depend in any way on sleep paralysis.

Originally Posted by Shift

I wouldn't say that 'Intense fear' is a main 'symptom' of sleep paralysis, because if you are informed about what it is, it's exciting. Plenty of people, particularly on this site who are informed about what SP is and how it can be used to aid LDing, look forward to and enjoy SP experiences. It varies between people and between individual experiences.

My theory is a more cyncial one. I think people have been reading a lot of BS about "sleep paralysis" here, and then when they go to sleep and pay attention to the sensations in their bodies, they call those sensations, whatever they are, "sleep paralysis".

Sometimes I get vibrations. Sometimes I fall. Sometimes I hear or see things. Sometimes I just can't move. The majority of the time I don't even notice that I'm in sleep paralysis [...]

That's clearly contradictory: it's impossible to be in sleep paralysis without knowing it.

Even when WILDing you don't necessarily experience the presence of SP.

Ditto: if you don't experience SP you don't have it. Sleep paralysis depends on your experiencing it. If you don't understand this you don't understand what sleep paralysis is.

Originally Posted by Thor

Maybe I should clarify: if you are one of the few people who really get sleep paralysis, it's great if you can turn it to your advantage and initiate lucid dreams from it. But if you are not one of those people, which is true for the majority, it's just stupid to seek this experience, because it's fully possible to WILD without it.



No, that's not entirely correct. The real distinction is not hypnagogic versus hypnopompic but common sleep paralysis versus hallucinatory sleep paralysis. Also, sleep paralysis most often occurs when waking up and rarely when falling asleep.

Furthermore, sleep paralysis of any kind is relatively rare. One particular study says:

To further examine the incidence of sleep paralysis, the responses of 80 first-year medical students, 16.25% had experienced predormital, postdormital, or both types of sleep paralysis. These episodes occurred infrequently-- only once or twice for most of these students.

So 16.25% had experienced SP maybe one or two times. Compare that with Dream Views where everyone and his brother claims to have "sleep paralysis" almost every night. I call BS.



Yeah, I know the theory. Though if that happens, there is clearly something wrong with you.



Hypnagogic hallucinations are perfectly normal and do not depend in any way on sleep paralysis.

Maybe i did not understood well. I always thought, that sleep paralysis is mind awake, body asleep state. Which happens every night. It seems you are talking about the experience of some people also "unfortunately" called sleep paralysis. I would name the episode those people have a sleep paralysis shutdown malfunction or somehow like that. Normally sleep paralysis ends just before the dream ends and starts long after you fall unconscious.

I have experienced sleep paralysis after not sleeping really much and it was really difficult to move my muscles at all.
Still. Under normal conditions i didnt experience sleep paralysis as described even when having direct (and wery gentle) transition from dream into waking state. This only leads me to conclusion... Well maybe under normal conditions i may move my body if i want to

Originally Posted by adraw

Maybe i did not understood well. I always thought, that sleep paralysis is mind awake, body asleep state. Which happens every night.

Are you perhaps referring to REM atonia? This means that the skeletal muscles are paralyzed during REM sleep. However, the REM sleep phase does not start until at least 15 minutes after falling asleep. If it occurs any earlier than this it's called sleep onset REM (SOREM), and SOREM has only been observed in narcoleptic subjects.

It seems you are talking about the experience of some people also "unfortunately" called sleep paralysis.

No, I'm using the term as it is used by the medical and scientific communities.

I have experienced sleep paralysis after not sleeping really much and it was really difficult to move my muscles at all.
Still. Under normal conditions i didnt experience sleep paralysis as described even when having direct (and wery gentle) transition from dream into waking state. This only leads me to conclusion... Well maybe under normal conditions i may move my body if i want to

If you don't even try to move your body, you can't be in sleep paralysis. The very first test is that you have tried and failed.

Originally Posted by Thor

Are you perhaps referring to REM atonia? This means that the skeletal muscles are paralyzed during REM sleep.

Yes, this is what is typically ment with SP here. It is the paralysis during the REM sleep, hence "sleep paralysis", or SP. If you are lucid, you are also aware that you can't move your body.

Originally Posted by Thor

However, the REM sleep phase does not start until at least 15 minutes after falling asleep. If it occurs any earlier than this it's called sleep onset REM (SOREM), and SOREM has only been observed in narcoleptic subjects.

It is perfectly normal to wake up at night and fall a sleep again, directly continuing the dream state, also being paralysed about immediately. Hence it is possible to stay aware of your bodily sensations and know when the paralysis kicks in. No need to be narcoleptic for this.

Originally Posted by Thor

No, I'm using the term as it is used by the medical and scientific communities.

99% of that community has never been lucid. IMO it's rather pointless to try to stick to the (lacking) strict medical terms here.

Originally Posted by Thor

If you don't even try to move your body, you can't be in sleep paralysis. The very first test is that you have tried and failed.

IF you LD, you will eventually try to move your body, and your dream body moves instead. Again, if you are lucid, you know that your physical body is paralysed. Physiologically you might be in the same state than anyone who experiences "Sleep Paralysis", but since you do not fear it, you would not report it as "Sleep Paralysis" in a medical observation, as your experience would not match the required definition.

So it seems your definition depends on the subject being ignorant of lucid dreaming and the related bodily states. Not very useful at Dream Views

Originally Posted by Thor

So 16.25% had experienced SP maybe one or two times. Compare that with Dream Views where everyone and his brother claims to have "sleep paralysis" almost every night. I call BS.

When you aren't trying to achieve SP or be more aware while you sleep, then of course you are less likely to experience it. I only experienced SP twice before I joined DV 3 weeks ago, but since then, I've experienced SP three times (once upon trying to WILD and twice when waking up from a dream). I do agree that some people here probably mistake somethings for SP that aren't really SP though.

Originally Posted by moonshine

1st is getting numb. When I say this I don't mean "absence of feeling". I mean numb like when you have a dead arm, or your mouth after having been to the dentist. That pins and needles feeling.

There is a second stage, which is the tingling wave that tends to come across your body (in me rising from head to toe).
A fairly gentle transitional experience, but not the main event.

Then theres the last stage, which is the traditional shake the bed vibrations which aren't real and you only feel in your as your mind disconnects completely from your body.

My first stage is a numbness, but it's definitely not associated with a pins and needles feeling. It's more of a feeling that I can't feel my body being there anymore. It's most noticeable in my hands and feet. I can usually still notice my chest, but not as much.

The second stage for me is the same, but mine is from toe to head and some popping sounds in my ears when it reaches my head.

I've never experienced the last stage you mention though.

Originally Posted by John11

My first stage is a numbness, but it's definitely not associated with a pins and needles feeling. It's more of a feeling that I can't feel my body being there anymore. It's most noticeable in my hands and feet. I can usually still notice my chest, but not as much.

Its not like that for me. When you have a local anesthetic (like at the dentist) and your mouth is "numb" we still "feel" something, even if its the absence your describing. Its that kind of tingle im talking about.
Not uncomfortable, but still weird.

When I awoke from a lucid dream, without moving, I immediately notices my hands, feet feeling this way. Which is the same was I feel eventually when I try to WILD. This can't be a coincidence.

Originally Posted by John11

The second stage for me is the same, but mine is from toe to head and some popping sounds in my ears when it reaches my head.

I meant toe to head too. Rising from toe to head.
Is this just a kind of gentle popping in yours ears. I think I've felt that too.

Originally Posted by John11

I've never experienced the last stage you mention though.

I guess you're saying that after the initial wave hits you then able to dip into a dream. Am I right?

I've definately felt both. The initial rising tingle, then a much more violent wave (which seems to be to be the one described as SP).
I've discussed this 1st and second stage wave on another threads.
There are others who corroborate this experience. http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...539#post925539

I understand that its different for all of us. I also understand that you can ignore the body by concentrating internally. Nevertheless Laberge does describe concentrating on the body as a valid way of inducing WILD..no doubt why many try this method.

All I'm trying to do is ascertain if there is a commonality to the feelings which can be expected when SP comes on.

Others have queried this on other threads. All to often I read a comment like
"LOL thats not SP. Believe me you will know when you hit SP".
Thats all well and good, but knowing roughly what to expect on the way there is half the battle.

Originally Posted by Thor

No, it sounds completely wrong.

Thanks for responding Thor, but I have to disagree. You may be too quick to
dismiss what I've said. I'm not making this stuff up. Theses are genuine feelings I have encountered whilst trying to WILD. Others have detailed similar experiences on other threads.

OK, so I used the term stages of sleep paralysis.
Maybe what I mean is the stages on the way too sleep paralysis.
But this seems like a semantic debate to me.

Originally Posted by Thor

No, it sounds completely wrong. What you are describing here has absolutely nothing to do with sleep paralysis. The main symptoms of sleep paralysis are:

I think this is a very particular kind of SP. I've found myself sluggish and hard to move, but never found it impossible to move. Nor have I been visited by any imaginary ghouls. (Though I fully beleive this can happen)

The WILD guides say, you enter SP and then you dream. They don't say you will always encounter great fear and hallucinations.

For what its worth, I don't think I've ever managed full SP.
I've certainlly not yet been able to WILD into a dream.

But I would like to get more opinions and details of people experiences to see if we can't, even loosely, define the physical/physiological feelings associate with the onset of SP.

Right, people on here often use "sleep paralysis" as an umbrella term, being the paralysis you experience before and right after sleep, including REM atonia while actually asleep, and usually also including any sort of sensation (including 'buzzing' or vibrating, falling, etc.), and hallucinations that often accompany it (w/ the exception of HH, I know I know, a fine line). That's just the way lucid dreaming communities tend to refer to them. Whether or not they are medically inaccurate is irrelevant. For the average lucid dreamer, who knows so little about the human body and neuroscience and neuropsychology but for whom the focus is to achieve lucid dreaming, the term works fine.

This is probably because the majority have read Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming, which is often touted as the "Lucid Dream Bible" and is the source that most people gather their lucid dreaming-related information from. A lot of the information on this site is just distilled from or more loosely based on his book.

So regarding sleep paralysis, Stephen LaBerge says:

"The “sleep paralysis” of REM sleep doesn’t always turn off immediately upon awakening; this is why you may have experienced waking up and not being able to move for a minute. Sleep paralysis can seem a terrifying experience, but actually it is quite harmless, and indeed, can even be useful for inducing lucid dreams (see chapter 4)." – p. 21

"If you focus on your body while falling asleep, you will sometimes notice a condition in which it seems to undergo extreme distortions, or begins to shake with mysterious vibrations, or becomes completely paralyzed. All of these unusual bodily states are related to the process of sleep onset and particularly REM sleep onset.
During REM sleep, as you will recall from chapter 2, all the voluntary muscles of your body are almost completely paralyzed, except for the muscles that move your eyes and those with which you breathe. REM sleep is a psychophysiological state involving the cooperative activity of a number of distinct special-purpose brain systems. For example, independent neural systems cause muscle paralysis, blockade of sensory input, and cortical activation. When these three systems are working together, your brain will be in the state or REM sleep, and you will probably be dreaming.
Sometimes the REM systems don’t turn on or off at the same time. For example, you may awaken partially from REM sleep, before the paralysis system turns off, so that your body is still paralyzed even though you are otherwise awake. Sleep paralysis, as this condition is called, can occur while people are falling asleep (rarely) or waking up (more frequently). If you don’t know what’s happening, your first experience with sleep paralysis can be terrifying. People typically struggle in a fruitless effort to move or to fully wake up. In fact, such emotional panic reactions are completely counterproductive; they are likely to stimulate the limbic (emotional) areas of the brain and cause the REM state to persist.
The fact is that sleep paralysis is harmless. Sometimes when it happens to you, you feel as if you are suffocating or in the presence of a nameless evil. But this is just the way your half-dreaming brain interprets these abnormal conditions: something terrible must be happening!....
Sleep paralysis is not only nothing to be frightened of, it can be something to be sought after and cultivated. Whenever you experience sleep paralysis you are on the threshold of REM sleep. You have, as it were, one foot in the dream state and one in the waking state. Just step over and you’re in the world of lucid dreams. In the following exercises we present several techniques for taking that step.” – p. 108-109

During his WILD Twin Bodies Technique, which has basically been renamed DEILD, he says:

“Now focus your attention on your physical body…notice how your body feels at each point along the way. Watch for signs of strange sensations, vibrations, and distortions of your body image. These are the harbingers of REM sleep paralysis. Eventually you will experience sensations like those described above which will rapidly develop into complete paralysis of your physical body. At this stage you are ready to leave your paralyzed body behind and to enter the dream world in your dream body.” – p.110

He also says himself that one is more likely to WILD in the sleep laboratory, versus while at home, due to the amount of attention and intention one implements regarding attaining a lucid dream. Since sleep paralysis (or pre-sleep paralysis sensations or whatever you want to call them) is the main component to one of his main WILD induction techniques, I don't think it would be a stretch to say that by planning on attaining these states, focusing on these states, and attaining a WILD will likely increase your frequency of experiencing these sleep-paralysis precursors, which, as I've already said, everyone just refers to as 'sleep-paralysis'.

Most people don't spend their lives trying to WILD. Even if they know about it, they don't spend every single time they go to sleep trying to experience these sensations. When you have a community of people, many of whom are dedicating almost every brief awakening to WILD attempts, of course you are going to get people experiencing and documenting them and in much higher frequencies than the average person.

Originally Posted by moonshine

Thanks for responding Thor, but I have to disagree. You may be too quick to
dismiss what I've said. I'm not making this stuff up. Theses are genuine feelings I have encountered whilst trying to WILD. Others have detailed similar experiences on other threads.

Ah, but I don't dismiss anyone's experiences, though I may dismiss their interpretation of those experiences.

OK, so I used the term stages of sleep paralysis.
Maybe what I mean is the stages on the way too sleep paralysis.
But this seems like a semantic debate to me.

Or maybe you mean "on the way to REM atonia".

Anyway, I think you are right that this is a semantic debate, but please don't assume that that makes it irrelevant. As Shift says, it's likely that "sleep paralysis" has become an umbrella term for all kinds of sensations that you have from sleep onset to awakening. Now if this frequently used term now stands for a hodgepodge of different experiences it becomes very hard to communicate precisely about it.

I think this is a very particular kind of SP. I've found myself sluggish and hard to move, but never found it impossible to move. Nor have I been visited by any imaginary ghouls. (Though I fully beleive this can happen)

Well, if you can move it's neither REM atonia in its natural form nor in its runaway sleep paralysis form.

The WILD guides say, you enter SP and then you dream. They don't say you will always encounter great fear and hallucinations.

For what its worth, I don't think I've ever managed full SP.
I've certainlly not yet been able to WILD into a dream.

See, that's the core of the problem. Because of those misleading WILD guides you now believe that you have to "manage SP" in order to WILD. You don't. I and many others have WILDed without experiencing any kind of sleep paralysis.

Good post Shift.

These are the harbingers of REM sleep paralysis.

Which is fine. So were talking about what leads up to sleep paralysis.
Which brings me back on point.

Are the stages I've noted common/correct?

I have a suspicion that maybe I'm mixing up the initial wave and the numbness.
It might be that its the initial wave which brings on the numbness.

I think the newbies (like me) would like to know more about this, instead for being dismissed by someone with a "Dude, thats not SP. LOL."

Originally Posted by mindwalker

Yes, this is what is typically ment with SP here. It is the paralysis during the REM sleep, hence "sleep paralysis", or SP. If you are lucid, you are also aware that you can't move your body.

If you are lucid you must necessarily be in a dream, and if you're in a dream you will feel and control your dream body, not your real body.

It is perfectly normal to wake up at night and fall a sleep again, directly continuing the dream state, also being paralysed about immediately. Hence it is possible to stay aware of your bodily sensations and know when the paralysis kicks in. No need to be narcoleptic for this.

Here you are committing the big mistake of assuming that just because you continue dreaming you would have to be in REM sleep. This is not the case; you can have perfectly fine dreams in sleep stages 1 and 2 as well, including lucid dreams. When you awaken and fall asleep again it takes at least 15 minutes before you reach REM sleep, otherwise it's SOREM.

IF you LD, you will eventually try to move your body, and your dream body moves instead. Again, if you are lucid, you know that your physical body is paralysed.

No, you don't know that until you have actually tried to move your real body. The fact that you are having a lucid dream does not mean that you are in REM sleep. And if you are a normal individual REM atonia occurs exclusively in REM sleep.

So it seems your definition depends on the subject being ignorant of lucid dreaming and the related bodily states. Not very useful at Dream Views

Quite to the contrary: your definition depends on pure belief, and that's not very useful on Dream Views. It certainly is of no use to people who want to have lucid dreams.

Originally Posted by moonshine

Are the stages I've noted common/correct?

Thanks,

Still, I don't think that there are discrete stages, or that they remain true. I think it varies by dreamer, and varies by situation. God knows what differences environmental variables alone cause. I don't always experience sleep paralysis precursors (SPP? lol), and the times I have it has varied. Once it was just a strange beeping that may have not even been a hallucination. Once it was intense vibrating throughout my body. Once it was a falling feeling, and that was just pre-sleep. They also didn't progress, it was just one sensation. I get it much more commonly upon waking.

I think the best thing is for people like Thor, who clearly understand a lot of the physiology and neuroscience behind sleep paralysis to provide information in an informative manner. That solves everyone's problem. Thor, you won't have to be aggravated by people not knowing what they are talking about. Everyone else will get a good education.

I think the biggest problem is these stupid tutorials talking about SP incessantly.

Here's an interesting question: How many of these experiences do you think people are actually going through because of the physiology of sleep, and how much of it is that they have actually entered a dream and are telling themselves to experience hallucinations or vibrations or whatever? Kind of like a lucid orgasm? You can point at your crotch and think orgasm and experience one, it may even be that people are already 'in' a dream and telling themselves to experience vibrations

Originally Posted by Shift

Whether or not they are medically inaccurate is irrelevant. For the average lucid dreamer, who knows so little about the human body and neuroscience and neuropsychology but for whom the focus is to achieve lucid dreaming, the term works fine.

Well, as I wrote in my reply to moonshine, I don't think the term works at all, judging by the large number of people who are asking if they were in sleep paralysis. If this term worked fine everyone would know.

This is probably because the majority have read Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming, which is often touted as the "Lucid Dream Bible" and is the source that most people gather their lucid dreaming-related information from. A lot of the information on this site is just distilled from or more loosely based on his book.

EWLD is indeed the bible on lucid dreaming, but notice the minuscule proportion of EWLD that is devoted to sleep paralysis versus the enormous attention SP receives here on Dream Views.

It is unfortunate, though, the LaBerge uses the term to refer to both the natural REM atonia and the sleep disorder by that name. Likewise the idea that you will enter REM, and hence REM atonia, the second you fall asleep and start dreaming; this is not the case.

Since sleep paralysis (or pre-sleep paralysis sensations or whatever you want to call them) is the main component to one of his main WILD induction techniques, I don't think it would be a stretch to say that by planning on attaining these states, focusing on these states, and attaining a WILD will likely increase your frequency of experiencing these sleep-paralysis precursors, which, as I've already said, everyone just refers to as 'sleep-paralysis'.

Sure, but what if you give "these states" so much focus that you lose sight of the real goal, which was to WILD? I have personally WILDed with no HH at all, and I've read other people's accounts of the same here on Dream Views. If what you're expecting doesn't happen, don't you think that could be a discouragement to you? Personally I would recommend that people try to WILD with an open mind and not expect anything in particular except that they will eventually enter a dream.

Originally Posted by Thor

Well, as I wrote in my reply to moonshine, I don't think the term works at all, judging by the large number of people who are asking if they were in sleep paralysis. If this term worked fine everyone would know.

Yea, apparently not and this thread reveals that to a larger degree than I'd realized. Honestly, the way I feel is that if someone isn't going to be doing basic reading and learn for themselves about these things, sucks for them if they can't lucid properly and waste time trying to get into 'SP' On one hand I feel responsible for providing information, but on the other hand these are basic things

Originally Posted by Thor

EWLD is indeed the bible on lucid dreaming, but notice the minuscule proportion of EWLD that is devoted to sleep paralysis versus the enormous attention SP receives here on Dream Views.

Bad tutorials. He has one tutorial on using SP to WILD, in his Twin Bodies Technique. Nowhere else, in all of his empirically researched methods, does he really mention SP. People have run rampant with that one and generalized it when they shouldn't have.

Originally Posted by Thor

It is unfortunate, though, the LaBerge uses the term to refer to both the natural REM atonia and the sleep disorder by that name. Likewise the idea that you will enter REM, and hence REM atonia, the second you fall asleep and start dreaming; this is not the case.

Yeah, he didn't really present the information properly or maybe just didn't take into account how most people don't understand anything about sleep or its stages. I dunno he came out with a new edition recently I think, maybe he did a better job there? Still, I think you ought to write a thread on this. Make yourself a celebrity and inform all of us ignorant at the same time

Originally Posted by Thor

Sure, but what if you give "these states" so much focus that you lose sight of the real goal, which was to WILD? I have personally WILDed with no HH at all, and I've read other people's accounts of the same here on Dream Views. If what you're expecting doesn't happen, don't you think that could be a discouragement to you? Personally I would recommend that people try to WILD with an open mind and not expect anything in particular except that they will eventually enter a dream.

Originally Posted by Shift

I think the biggest problem is these stupid tutorials talking about SP incessantly.

Same here, I have WILDed with no HH or any other sensations. Notably, I don't WILD frequently or easily. And exactly. People lose sight. I actually wrote a ton about that but then I erased before my last post, I figured I should get out while I wasn't making too big a fool of myself. I think most people don't really realize what they are talking about, and yea this losing-sight can lead a lot of people astray. On the same hand, I feel that people should be teaching themselves, reading other sources, and making their own decisions. If they can't even read http://www.dreamviews.com/sleepstages.php or anything more in depth... I don't feel like I should waste my time pitying them. A good DG I know. But people shouldn't be spoon-fed lucid dreaming. So many of them talk about how lucid dreams aren't good if you don't have to work for them- so they should all stand by their words and inform themselves. The fact that people like you have to come here and call us out just proves that

Originally Posted by Shift

Still, I don't think that there are discrete stages, or that they remain true. I think it varies by dreamer, and varies by situation. God knows what differences environmental variables alone cause. I don't always experience sleep paralysis precursors (SPP? lol), and the times I have it has varied. Once it was just a strange beeping that may have not even been a hallucination. Once it was intense vibrating throughout my body. Once it was a falling feeling, and that was just pre-sleep. They also didn't progress, it was just one sensation. I get it much more commonly upon waking.

See Shift, where this SP(P) focus is leading? To nowhere! Here moonshine was expecting a nice sequence of big signposts leading him into the dream, and now you have to inform him that there may not be any at all. What's he gonna do now?

I think the best thing is for people like Thor, who clearly understand a lot of the physiology and neuroscience behind sleep paralysis to provide information in an informative manner. That solves everyone's problem. Thor, you won't have to be aggravated by people not knowing what they are talking about. Everyone else will get a good education.

Well, thanks for your confidence, Shift. I'll keep trying.

Here's an interesting question: How many of these experiences do you think people are actually going through because of the physiology of sleep, and how much of it is that they have actually entered a dream and are telling themselves to experience hallucinations or vibrations or whatever? Kind of like a lucid orgasm? You can point at your crotch and think orgasm and experience one, it may even be that people are already 'in' a dream and telling themselves to experience vibrations

Now that's a very interesting idea. Those experiences could simply be the result of suggestion in many cases.

Originally Posted by Thor

See Shift, where this SP(P) focus is leading? To nowhere! Here moonshine was expecting a nice sequence of big signposts leading him into the dream, and now you have to inform him that there may not be any at all. What's he gonna do now?



Well, thanks for your confidence, Shift. I'll keep trying.



Now that's a very interesting idea. Those experiences could simply be the result of suggestion in many cases.

Haha SPP. Now all I need to do is create an ILD and I'll go down in lucid dreaming history. Ah, the infamy of renaming things to confuse people...

That's what I'm thinking, I've had this sitting in the back of my mind for a while. That it's not even necessarily a 'true' experience, but just an induced experience just as one would summon a person or object into a dream and stimulate the mind into thinking it was perceived when the distal stimulus never existed. Makes you realize how much more irrelevant it is, as the whole point of the Twin Bodies Technique is that the environment never changes and you believe that you are still lying in bed, until the point where you "pull your dream body out of your physical body". So you may not even actually tell when it is that you have entered a dream, and since you are so focused you may just be lying there telling your dream body to vibrate away. All the more reason not to focus on reaching SP.

And also, I'm not kidding when I say you should write a topic about the stages of sleep and all the details, sort out the mess that this general knowledge has become. DV desperately needs people who are knowledgeable and educated about sleeping topics, and if you fit the criteria I would love to read anything you have to write. This biggest problem with these forums is that people aren't required to cite sources. Now I know why they're always bothering me to at school. DV needs a group of peer reviewers to OK posts!

Originally Posted by Shift

And also, I'm not kidding when I say you should write a topic about the stages of sleep and all the details, sort out the mess that this general knowledge has become. DV desperately needs people who are knowledgeable and educated about sleeping topics, and if you fit the criteria I would love to read anything you have to write. This biggest problem with these forums is that people aren't required to cite sources. Now I know why they're always bothering me to at school. DV needs a group of peer reviewers to OK posts!

Well, why not. I'll try and write a draft and I'll post it here in a few days, for peer review.

Originally Posted by Thor

Well, why not. I'll try and write a draft and I'll post it here in a few days, for peer review.

Yay!!

Thor, do you really not understand the OP's question? Or are you purposefully just trying to be difficult?

I think you guys are missing the point. When learning something, especially something specific like WILD, it helps to have a model you can relate to. Signposts, expectations, and a general idea of what to expect can help. It is a model and an aid. Its purpose is to help people learn to have the experience for themselves.

I like when people post their WILD experiences in a sequential way. It forms a narrative that I can relate to in my imagination. I think this thread would have been a whole lot more helpful it everyone posted their sleep paralysis experiences, instead of you making a big stink about the difference between sleep paralysis and REM atonia.

I think you are focusing too much on semantics, and not enough on experience.