Thread: schizophrenia

Well first off, my uncle has paranoid schizophrenia. A lot of his delusions dehabilitate him. He convinces himself that everywhere he goes, be it in his front yard, at the grocery store, at the doctor's office, he is being closely watched and/or followed. I have seen him point to a place and say "That's a video camera" and it could really be like a box or something. If you ask him to show you the camera, he will just change the subject onto some other paranoid thing. He used to think that while he was gone, people were coming into his house and poisioning his cat, his food, tampering with his personal belongings, etc. He became so crazy that he had to move in with my grandparents finally. Gosh, just a few years ago he cut up all of his 30 xanaxes into halves and took half of all the halves....He then went to my grandparent's house and threatened to call the police on them for invading his personal privacy. So the cops came, and by the time they got there he had forgotten why he was so riled up. He is scary when he gets like that. If you tell me that this is not a problem, that this is normal, than you are a lunatic. There is something very wrong with him. The fact that his reality is different is a major problem beacause it is so incompatible that it could cause him to hurt himself and others. Though I don't agree with people feeding him medication that he doesn't need, he does need a minimal amount of medication to keep his chemical imbalances in check. The problem with schizophrenics is though, a lot of them either wallow in self pity and don't want to do anything about it, or they do not admit to themselves and others that there is in fact a problem.

paranoid schizophrenia is different from a general diagnosis of schizophrenia. my friend was not diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia.

i'm not denying the existence of REAL schizophrenia manifesting in paranoia [/b]

Originally posted by mongreloctopus
paranoid schizophrenia is different from a general diagnosis of schizophrenia. *my friend was not diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. *

i'm not denying the existence of REAL schizophrenia manifesting in paranoia

[/b]

Yes but to deny one sect of schizophrenia is "real" is absurd. Either way it's a major disorder and it needs treatment. Of course, nobody needs to have a whole bunch of crazy medications thrown at them, but it does need a treatment of some kind, whether it is through therapy or otherwise.

You are acting weird, I am sure you are schizophrenic!

Well yeah, maybe it's just a populair mental distortion that's hot at the moment, so all of a sudden more people have it.

Crazy is very hard to define. We all see the world differently, and you could say the people that allways want their desk 100% tidy are crazy too. Who would you want that?

Your friend isn't any different. Unless he did it in the past I really doubt he will charge you with a stakeknife everytime you say: Chicken-breast.

or something crazy.

We are all crazy, especially here on dreamviews

Originally posted by Neruo
You are acting weird, I am sure you are schizophrenic!

exactly my point put much more succinctly.

edit:

Yes but to deny one sect of schizophrenia is "real" is absurd.[/b]

thats exactly the problem--schizophrenia is such a loose description that symptoms can be

* *
* *feelings of being controlled by outside forces (i.e. having one's thoughts and actions taken over)
* ** hearing, seeing, smelling or feeling things which are not there (hallucinations)
* ** unusual beliefs (delusions).

[/b]

in fact

Schizophrenia is a diagnosis given to some people who have severely disrupted beliefs and experiences. *However many people diagnosed with schizophrenia and some professionals dispute whether there is such a condition.[/b]

compliments of http://www.mentalhealth.org.uk

* feelings of being controlled by outside forces (i.e. having one's thoughts and actions taken over) *
* hearing, seeing, smelling or feeling things which are not there (hallucinations) *
* unusual beliefs (delusions). [/b]

by these criteria, i have been (am?) skitzophrenic. http://www.schizophrenia.com/ <--browsing this website seems to reinforce that assumption.

i used to hear voices with some frequency, and even came to 'recognize' two of them, and attatched names to them/they named themselves. elisa (or interchangeably elyse, or elisa) was one, and i cannot remember what the other called himself (which is strange, as he once dominated my life....).

it was never clear whether they were external entities, or manifestations of myself. i think the fact i mostly managed to believe the latter most of the time is the only reason i made it through with some semblance of sanity looking back that is certainly the reason i did not end up institutionalized or dead....if ever i had totally believed that these entities were completely external and as real as my family and friends... that's why its really hard for me to hear about people like's gwen's loved one...i realize a very thin line differentiates us...i wish there were something i could do to help them, but know there isn't anything..

anyways, i usually managed to go off alone when the voices were particularly potent, and avoid alerting anyone to just how mentally disturbed i was. to everyone else i just seemed introverted and melancholy.

at times one or both of them would take control of my body. i remember my consolation was the knowledge that "i" was always just strong enough to stop them from hurting anyone but myself...

that was always the way it seemed to work...concessions and compromises were made which nullified possible violence against others, in turn directing it towards myself. i even became obsessed with a bizarre scenario a few years ago where i would sometimes believe my destiny was to one day absorb the totality of earth's suffering, and be crucified by 4 robots (which would effectively pass evil/suffering into mechanical circuitry and purge humanity). essentially i thought myself the second coming of christ i can smile and shake my head about it now, along with most everything else, but at the time all of this was very real. anywhere from 2-4 years was spent under the influence of voices, feelings of being followed, the belief i was christ reincarnate, periods where i felt my throat was constricting and i couldn't breath, etc....


the last yeargive or take is the first time in my life that i remember that i've felt vaguely sane. there was one episode in particular that was a turning point. it is hard to remember clearly, as it has the continuity of a dream.

basically i fully confronted (was confronted by) both elyse and her masculine polar opposite. elyse symbolized everything pure, transcendent....love. the "black" entity personified everything hateful, evil, chaotic, violent....torture.

(heh, i realize how surreal this sounds as i write it....its been awhile since i've dwelt on this...)

anyways, during this particular episode they both became very real, as real as i felt myself. instead of hearing their voices i actually realized with shock that they were now speaking with my physical mouth. it felt like i had no control. the black male was convincing us (elyse was "on my side") that he was too powerful to overcome, and that he was going to kill me.

i can't remember if elyse actually spoke audibly, but she was resisting him...i basically watched helplessly. at one point a compromise was reached concerning slitting both wrists (as this has always seemed a particularly unpleasant way to go for myself...its hard to explain, but the feeling of blood rushing out into empty space makes my stomach feel weightless and my head strange...i still feel this if i think about it).
elyse and myself somehow managed to win a permanent victory barring him from ever inflicting death in this manner, but the stipulation was that he got to brand my wrists as a constant reminder of him. "i" had no control as he peformed this task with a lighter. taking what seemed like forever to heat it burning hot, and then press it to my wrist while i watched and experienced this without the ability to pull away as it slowly cooled on my skin.. and then again on the other side.

anyways, this episode ended with me lying on the balcony shaking and whimpering, and although i can't remember how exactly, he couldn't make me jump.

i still suffered from delusions and severe depression after this episode, but the voices never came back audibly...and first the black entity and then the white eventually evaporated, or were assimilated into my being.


hmm, i wasn't planning on writing all tihs out. actually, its the first time i've explicitly thought about it in awhile, or told anyone about it (you lucky ducks ). i guess my main purpose other than to purge is to share the following comments:

at various points i felt completely and utterly insane. it seemed that my delusions and hallucinations just increased with every day.

many times i would be on the verge of just collapsing and "giving in" to mental instability completely, knowing i would end up in a psyche ward. i knew they would put me on heavy medications trying to help or even 'cure' me.

i can say with 100% conviction that i would be either completely insane or sedated right now (likely both) if i had allowed psychiatrists to diagnose me at that stage of life. no doubt they would have come up with all sorts of official, knowledgable-sounding diagnoses.

this is obviously just my opinion, but fuck that, and fuck them. i'm not saying many in the mental health field aren't geniunely trying to help. but it seems some just want to reduce individuals to components in some theory they first thought of when they had to write their masters thesis. or that certain pharmacuetical companies and their lackeys will do whatever it takes to make a buck...mental illness is big business. and although i am open to the possibility that a very small percentage of drugs/medications actually treat a definite chemical imbalance and do more good than harm, it seems most are just another consumer item

hell, i've watched at least 4 friends start taking various medications for depression in the past, and all of them got worse. in the beginning they were depressed, but who doesn't get depressed? from talking with all of them i know that it was primarily a battle of will....did they want to live, or not.

and all of them allowed someone to label them with this or that, and give them drugs. and each one only got worse. two of them i have lost touch with. both of the others eventually decided to stop taking drugs and listening to those who told them they had some mental disorder, and both are now doing better than they'vee ever been. they have explicity told me it was a matter of will.

f course, nobody needs to have a whole bunch of crazy medications thrown at them, but it does need a treatment of some kind, whether it is through therapy or otherwise.[/b]

*Though I don't agree with people feeding him medication that he doesn't need, he does need a minimal amount of medication to keep his chemical imbalances in check. The problem with schizophrenics is though, a lot of them either wallow in self pity and don't want to do anything about it, or they do not admit to themselves and others that there is in fact a problem.[/b]

i think this last statement is key. it seems far too often the mental health profession only feeds people's problems. they label them and tell them they have to take this pill and that pill or they'll be a hazard to themselves and society. they essentially tell alot of people "oh, its alright to spend the rest of your life pitying yourself....we don't really expect anything more from you...after all, you have disorder X, and look how serious that is..."

fuck that line of thinking. unless they can show absolute and conclusive evidence that a certain chemical imbalance in the brain causes a mental disorder, and only a certain medication can help, why take their word for it?

again, i am 100% sure that if i had been diagnosed a few years ago they would have "conclusively" slapped me with some disorder (likely skitzophrenia or manic depression, maybe more). they would have told me and my loved ones certain judgement faculties and choices were outside of my control, and required drugs to make me somewhat "normal".

i'd likely still be institionalized or on a medication regime.

i don't think mongel's friend is suffering from anything he can't overcome with determination, hope, and honest, frank discussion with himself and others whom he trusts. i dont say that in a way which belittles what he is going through, but just the opposite. it will likely be the hardest thing he'll ever have to do, but i see no reason he can't cope without taking medication and allowing others to arbitrarily label him.

in the end i know three things helped me become the relatively sane individual i am today.

1. the will to keep trying even when things were bleak and confusing (this implies a sense of personal responsibility and pride, even when external and/or internal forces seem to be stronger)

2. a girl i befriended who was going through similar experiences who i could talk with openly, and feel connected with (even though we both had bouts of incoherency). someone who i knew had faith i could become better, and viewed me as equal, and not a mentally damaged freak.

3. luck or chance or god, or ?....

shite, that's a long post

i don't think mongel's friend is suffering from anything he can't overcome with determination, hope, and honest, frank discussion with himself and others whom he trusts. i dont say that in a way which belittles what he is going through, but just the opposite. it will likely be the hardest thing he'll ever have to do, but i see no reason he can't cope without taking medication and allowing others to arbitrarily label him. [/b]

Originally posted by wombing
i don't think mongel's friend is suffering from anything he can't overcome with determination, hope, and honest, frank discussion with himself and others whom he trusts.

Yeah, you're right. What the hell are the doctors thinking? Diagnosing people?! Ha! Craziness. Having a nice talk with your mammy and pappy is a great way to fix chemical imbalances in the brain! Down with medicine!!!

[/sarcasm]

Originally posted by bradybaker

Yeah, you're right. What the hell are the doctors thinking? Diagnosing people?! Ha! Craziness. Having a nice talk with your mammy and pappy is a great way to fix chemical imbalances in the brain! Down with medicine!!!

[/sarcasm]

since they still don't even know if/which chemicals are imbalanced what makes you think taking medicine will help? i guess probably in the same way drugs like vioxx help: by making a big corporation lots of money while simultaneously killing the people it's supposed to help. granted, this is not the case with every drug, but it's pretty obvious these corporations are less concerned with actually healing people and more concerned with creating a good customer base. tell me, what's ONE good drug for schizophrenia?

The point I was making is that you (and especially wombing or I) are not in a position to say what's best for your friend.

Are there controversies surrounding the medication of certian psychological disorders? Certainly. But to assume that it's all some giant conspiracy to generate big bucks for pharmaceutical companies is ludacris. Even if the CEOs are one-dimensional enough to take that course of action, it's quite another thing to say that the scientific community is somehow in on it.

How can you show such interest and respect for psychology in one thread and label it as corrupt and harmful in the next?

Originally posted by bradybaker

Yeah, you're right. What the hell are the doctors thinking? Diagnosing people?! Ha! Craziness. Having a nice talk with your mammy and pappy is a great way to fix chemical imbalances in the brain! Down with medicine!!!

[/sarcasm]

*yawn* i couldn't see this coming...

i guess you didn't read this part of my post?

..fuck that line of thinking. unless they can show absolute and conclusive evidence that a certain chemical imbalance in the brain causes a mental disorder, and only a certain medication can help, why take their word for it? [/b]

i'm all for diagnosing people effectively. i'm all for science. i'm all for medicine that works, when it is the only alternative.

psuedo-science, biased speculation, and psuedo-medicine are quite different things...

it seems much of psychology hypothesizes that we (as conscious, sentient beings) are the product of brain chemistry, and most psychological disorders are the result of chemical imbalances that can be fixed with medication.

hey, well and good. if they (or you) can show definitively that certain isolated imbalances are responsible for various psychological disorders, including skitzophrenia, and that only certain man-made medication remedies those imbalances, good one them...i'll be glad to see them cure people who would otherwise be write-offs.

so instead of your predictable sarcasm, why don't you throw that definitive evidence in my face? i'm always willing to eat crow when its sauteed in truth..

perhaps because you have none, and there is no solid evidence behind most psychotropic medications?...


i'm confident most psychologists would have labeled me skitzophrenic in the past (at the very least). i displayed all the characteristic symptoms of their nice neat category.

are you suggesting i was ignorant in refusing to crawl to them (or "mammy and pappy" for that matter ) and let them try out various combinations of drugs?

i guess i should have just let them do some tests and brain scans. they would have known definitively which chemical imbalance(s) were responsible for my psychological dis-order, and been able to show me conclusive charts and images.

then they would have given me their magic pills with rock solid scientific backing and i could have watched those chemical imbalances rectify themselves with time until i was "normal".

of course, i'd probably still be taking "light dosages" of preventative medication..

*bows, and backs away meekly* once again you have shown me the error of my ways with naught but a hefty draught of dripping sarcasm.


true scientists know when they have something definitive, and something that is nebulous and tinged with speculation and guesswork.

Medicine is both an area of knowledge (a science), and the application of that knowledge.

until the knowledge is solid, i'm not willing to be the guinea pig for the application of speculative stabbing in a dimly lit room...if brain chemistry and related medications were as 'scientific" as you pretend there would be no need for doctors to switch medications and dosages dozens of times to treat something they can supposedly diagnose accurately.

Originally posted by bradybaker
The point I was making is that you (and especially wombing or I) are not in a position to say what's best for your friend.

Are there controversies surrounding the medication of certian psychological disorders? Certainly. But to assume that it's all some giant conspiracy to generate big bucks for pharmaceutical companies is ludacris. Even if the CEOs are one-dimensional enough to take that course of action, it's quite another thing to say that the scientific community is somehow in on it.

I agree with this....No offense to anyone, but I know that in the case of my uncle, he could solve it with a bit of discipline and determination, but I am not even sure he knows how. He needs his medicine. It helps him function on a day to day basis. Paranoid or not, schizophrenia is a real disorder that needs some kind of treatment and to say that medicine won't help it is absurd.

According to a person I know I have paranoid schizophrenia. The way I look at it it's simply paranoia.

I've always been fascinated by psychology pathology. It's amazing the kinds of delusions a person's mind can invent with specific chemical imbalances.

True, I do think that some people are just emotionally screwed up and the problem is not on a physiological level, but I don't think there can be any question about if personality disorders really exist.

Everyone is different. Yes, you can classify a good portion of a patient's symptoms into the broad spectrum of a certain personality disorder, but everyone reacts a little differently. Therefore, some people may need medication to be more comfortable, and some could solve their own problems without medication. I agree with Gwen's statement about only needed enough medication to control the problem, and no more than that. So why overmedicate? You could be potentially harming the patient rather than helping them.

I think I'm a bit obsessive-complusive, actually. When I leave the house and lock the door, I get a feeling of panic that I didn't unplug the coffee maker, or unplug my curling iron. When I try to look back to see if I remember if I actually did it, I can't remember. I can't leave before I go back up to check. So I unlock the door, go back upstairs and check to make sure everything is unplugged. Then I'm satisfied and can go about my day. I've tried not performing the ritual but the feeling of panic follows me to work and I can't concentrate. So it's worth it to just take the time to go back up and check. This happens about 2 to 3 times a week.

I know this behavior is irrational but I can't help it. But I don't think I need medication. There are different levels of these disorders which are slightly different for everyone.

So whether a person needs a medication or not is based on a very individual basis.

Originally posted by Burns


I think I'm a bit obsessive-complusive, actually. When I leave the house and lock the door, I get a feeling of panic that I didn't unplug the coffee maker, or unplug my curling iron. When I try to look back to see if I remember if I actually did it, I can't remember. I can't leave before I go back up to check. So I unlock the door, go back upstairs and check to make sure everything is unplugged. Then I'm satisfied and can go about my day. I've tried not performing the ritual but the feeling of panic follows me to work and I can't concentrate. So it's worth it to just take the time to go back up and check. This happens about 2 to 3 times a week.

that's interesting, because i used to experience the same kind of thing...but i realized it was because i was going about most of my daily actions like that in a sort of "auto-pilot," not focusing my attention on what i was doing, and then later not being able to recall the memory of what i was doing being was immersed in other thought. i was able to conquer it recently just by practicing being aware of what i was doing as much as possible. it seems like you are only truly aware of what you are doing the time you go back to double-check...maybe it is a similar thing.

Dear Mongreloctopus,

Well... what brought your friend to the Doctor's attention in the first place.

In the Electronic Equipment Repair Business the technicians say, when they smoke a repair job... making the problem a lot worse than it was to begin with... they say, well, "it was broke already or I wouldn't have been working on it".

Well, isn't this the case with your friend? If he wasn't broke, that is, if he was not in some way pathological, then why was a doctor even looking his way. "Where there is smoke, there's fire".

Your friend is having a nervious breakdown because he is diagnosed with Schizophrenia. If he were really okay, then he could simply reassure the Doctor that he is fine, answer a few easy questions to verify it, and walk out a free man, without even a perscription for some mind-deadening pharmaceuticals. It happens all the time in America these days... with all the lawyers... every time somebody raises their voice at the Office, they are sent off for a psychological evaluation. 90% of people sent in for such Evals are able to tippy-toe through the mine field with no problem. But if somebody already was on the edge of a psychological meltdown, then it might turn into something to really worry about.

Anyone who is together enough to keep it together, has nothing to worry about.

Oh, and yes, 'schizophrenia' is a bit over-diagnosed, and this is the reason why -- it seems that Lithium, the drug of choice for Schizophrenia, works for a whole range of complaints. Often, when nothing else seems to help, a Doctor will try Lithium, and then, if Lithium helps.... well, here is the problem... to get the Insurance Companies to pay for the Lithium, the patient must be diagnosed with a Lithium-category disorder... to justify the Lithium Treatment and to pay for it, the doctor has to diagnose 'Schizophrenia', or, more typically "Bipolar Disorder". Indeed, that is why they created this second name for schizophrenia -- "Bipolar Disorder" because doctors wanted a disease name with less stygma attached that would give them the justification for administering good ol' cure-everything Lithium.

it's somewhat of a long story as to what ultiamtely led to his diagnosis, but you're right in that if there were nothing wrong he wouldn't be there in the first place...knowing his personality, though, the way he is being "treated" right now is ensuring that it gets drilled into his mind that there is something very wrong with him that he will never be able to overcome without a heavy dose of whatever "anti-psychotic" he's being given.

as for bi-polar disorder, i believe that is manic-depression and not schizophrenia...although i wouldn't be surprised if manic-depression were often diagnosed as schizophrenia while the individual is in the midst of a "manic" phase.

it's a pointless endeavor to hope that anyone aside from a very small minority would have any different opinions on "modern" medicine so i think he is doomed to a life of self-defeat. it's kind of weird to have finally reached the age where people you know start dropping like flies around you...or maybe i'm cursed

Originally posted by mongreloctopus
it's somewhat of a long story as to what ultiamtely led to his diagnosis, but you're right in that if there were nothing wrong he wouldn't be there in the first place...knowing his personality, though, the way he is being "treated" right now is ensuring that it gets drilled into his mind that there is something very wrong with him that he will never be able to overcome without a heavy dose of whatever "anti-psychotic" he's being given.

as for bi-polar disorder, i believe that is manic-depression and not schizophrenia...although i wouldn't be surprised if manic-depression were often diagnosed as schizophrenia while the individual is in the midst of a "manic" phase.

it's a pointless endeavor to hope that anyone aside from a very small minority would have any different opinions on "modern" medicine so i think he is doomed to a life of self-defeat. *it's kind of weird to have finally reached the age where people you know start dropping like flies around you...or maybe i'm cursed

Cut your losses and move on!

You know, at a certain point you should pick your friends. When one is young, one is thrown in with other students, and then, in the military or in one's career, one is also thrown together with people. and, yes, while one should have a degree of human respect for such people, one should have the discrimination and discretion to realize these are not "friends". One should not allow one's self to be attached to people who have no greater claim to one's soul then mere proximity and accident. One should choose one's friends. Friends should be special.

Now, what they say is true, and that is "to make a friend, one must be a friend". In this regards, where friends must be able to display some special and noteworthy attribute, or not be worthy of being a 'friend', I suppose often we cannot choose the most worthy friends because we ourselves are not worthy to have them. We apply for friendship to the very best, but are rejected. Well, that is sad. But we can endeavor to improve ourselves until we are worthy of friendship. But, until that time, it would be better to go on mostly alone then to saddle ourselves with miscreants and halfwits who can only be more trouble than they could ever be worth. So, it is Best to have a Worthy Friend, but better to be alone then to be conjoined to idiots and fools.

i think that is good advice...in this situation i don't have much choice anyway--theres no reaching this guy anymore.

Originally posted by mongreloctopus
that's interesting, because i used to experience the same kind of thing...but i realized it was because i was going about most of my daily actions like that in a sort of "auto-pilot," not focusing my attention on what i was doing, and then later not being able to recall the memory of what i was doing being was immersed in other thought. *i was able to conquer it recently just by practicing being aware of what i was doing as much as possible. *it seems like you are only truly aware of what you are doing the time you go back to double-check...maybe it is a similar thing.

That's a really interesting idea. Maybe I do just turn on the auto-pilot mode and do my morning routines without really thinking.

I'm going to try to be more aware of everything I do, experiencing things in the moment rather than trying to remember if I did them later.

Thanks for the help!

Well, I am really divided here. Yes there are some people that are diseased and need help.

* hearing, seeing, smelling or feeling things which are not there (hallucinations)
* unusual beliefs (delusions).[/b]

Hey it looks like fit the profile of another psychological disorder. Now I am probably obsessive compulsive and schitzophrenic and there's a small chance of qualifying for Asperger's Syndrome.

At one point in my life, I was living it all wrong. I threw it out and started over. Now, I know I am so much closer to the truth and the main thing that got me there was this "schitzophrenic disorder".

You see words like hallucinations and delusions, they are given such a negative connotation. It is almost as if doctors or whomever do it on purpose. If I tell you I hallucinate and am delusional, you will probably say "You are out there" or "You are crazy". Somewhere, I don't remember where, there were a whole bunch of quotes regarding God, and the more popular ones came from inmates in mental institutions. The crazy people, the insane.

It's like "the decision makers" want life to be lived exactly backwards for maximum inefficiency. Most people are headed in the wrong direction. Now, I can't wait for all the people to tell me how wrong I am. Especially since I've been in there camp before, and now reject it. They haven't been to my camp, but they "know better". They really want to pull me back to the wrong direction. It's actually just a really big, laughable situation. Their ignorance will shine.

Originally posted by wombing
i'm all for diagnosing people effectively. i'm all for science. i'm all for medicine that works, when it is the only alternative. *

*psuedo-science, biased speculation, and psuedo-medicine are quite different things...

*it seems much of psychology hypothesizes that we (as conscious, sentient beings) *are the product of brain chemistry, and most psychological disorders are the result of chemical imbalances that can be fixed with medication.

*hey, well and good. if they (or you) can show definitively that certain isolated imbalances are responsible for various psychological disorders, including skitzophrenia, and that only certain man-made medication remedies those imbalances, good one them...i'll be glad to see them cure people who would otherwise be write-offs.

*so instead of your predictable sarcasm, why don't you throw that definitive evidence in my face? i'm always willing to eat crow when its sauteed in truth..

*perhaps because you have none, *and there is no solid evidence behind most psychotropic medications?...

*
*i'm confident most psychologists would have labeled me skitzophrenic in the past (at the very least). i displayed all the characteristic symptoms of their nice neat category.

*are you suggesting i was ignorant in refusing to crawl to them (or "mammy and pappy" for that matter * ) and let them try out various combinations of drugs?

*i guess i should have just let them do some tests and brain scans. they would have known definitively which chemical imbalance(s) were responsible for my psychological dis-order, and been able to show me conclusive charts and images.

*then they would have given me their magic pills with rock solid scientific backing and i could have watched those chemical imbalances rectify themselves with time until i was "normal".

*of course, i'd probably still be taking "light dosages" of preventative medication..

**bows, and backs away meekly* once again you have shown me the error of my ways with naught but a hefty draught of dripping sarcasm.


*true scientists know when they have something definitive, and something that is nebulous and tinged with speculation and guesswork.

*Medicine is both an area of knowledge (a science), and the application of that knowledge. *

*until the knowledge is solid, i'm not willing to be the guinea pig for the application of speculative stabbing in a dimly lit room...if brain chemistry and related medications were as 'scientific" as you pretend there would be no need for doctors to switch medications and dosages dozens of times to treat something they can supposedly diagnose accurately.

Oh I see. You want the perfect solution and you want it now. Unfortunately it's not quite that simple. We're not exactly sure on the specifics of cancer or AIDS either, should we stop 'experimenting on those guinea pigs' too?

I never claimed that there is 100% effective diagnoses and treatments for schizophrenia. There is however strong evidence that dopamine is the neurotransmitter that causes the symptoms of schizophrenia when present in excess amounts. Furthermore, the fact that schizophrenia is almost entirely dependent on genetic factors is strong evidence that this is a biological problem.

Currently, the most effective schizophrenia drug is Clozaril (unfortunately it includes the possibility of a couple particularily nasty side effects, meaning that the patient must be monitored extremely closely). The next best--as shown in recent federally funded studies of patient preference--are Risperdal and Zyprexa. These are the more commonly used medications because they lack the potentially dangerous side effects.

Now, if you think that an incomplete knowledge of the biology and chemistry behind the problem equates to 'pseudo-science' and 'pseudo-medicine' I would have to ask you what you consider to be real science and real medicine?

Regardless of all that, I was making the point that you are not in the position to say what's best for mongreloctopus' buddy. Schizophrenia is a real problem that real people face every day. The real symptoms are often countered with real medication that really does help.

I read an interesting article with Eric Kandel in the April issue of Discover
Kandel won a Nobel prize in 2000 in neuroscience.

He says:

I think that that psychopharmacological treatments have revolutionized psychiatry. *On the other hand, I think anyone practicing psychiatry realizes that drug therapy is very effective but not perfect, that there are some patients who don't benefit from it, that there are some patients who benefit from drugs together with psychotherapy, and that in somce cases psychotherapy by itself works.[/b]

He also states "You know, our understanding of the mind is at a very early stage."

As with any significant illness, its good to seek out expert help and find the treatment method that helps you. Closing a door on ideological grounds may be principled but limiting.

Now, if you think that an incomplete knowledge of the biology and chemistry behind the problem equates to 'pseudo-science' and 'pseudo-medicine' I would have to ask you what you consider to be real science and real medicine?[/b]

i consider psuedo-science to be when a scientist (professional or layman) acts as if they possess complete knowledge even when there are missing pieces (such as with our current incomplete knowledge of the biology and chemistry behind mind).

i consider real science to be able to absolutely determine a cause-effect relationship without any major unknown variables in the equation. for instance, the law of gravity predicts the rate objects will fall with seemingly 100% accuracy.

IMO real medicine is also free of major variables which are unnaccounted for, and predicts what effects a particular medicine will have on a particular condition. for instance, our knowledge of scurvy predicts that a specific condition (lack of the antioxidant absorbic acid, which is vital for ensuring certain iron ions do not oxidize as they are prone to do) can be cured by eating a lemon, with close to 100% accuracy.

as i already stated, i'm all for the truth, and i'm all for what works. science and medicine are two of the most important aspects of human existence...which is why i hold them to such high standards...i'm baffled why you seem to disagree with my thinking in this way...are you for granting the incomplete aspects of science full status as scientific knowledge simply because they seem likely? that seems like a religious person touting opinion as divine revelation.

i know how much you hate that, so it should be easy for you to understand that it irritates me when you seem to tout opinion as scientific/medical knowledge...

Oh I see. You want the perfect solution and you want it now. Unfortunately it's not quite that simple. We're not exactly sure on the specifics of cancer or AIDS either, should we stop 'experimenting on those guinea pigs' too? [/b]

you put words in my mouth. as said above, i want certain people to stop acting as if a perfect solution already exists.

also, that wasn't the best comparison. most forms of cancer, and AIDS reach a point where the person's options get narrower and narrower...they really have nothing to lose volunteering to be a guinea pig, because they are close to death anyways. usually they have tried any alternatives while the disease was not fully progressed.

in the same way, it seems far too often people with psychological disorders are told straight away they are at a stage where only drugs can help them, before they have even tried alternatives. if nothing else works, fine...but to promote uncertain drugs with possibly adverse side effects right out of the gate seems arrogant and unadvised.

really, my whole beef with you on this issue was a reaction to the comment:

Yeah, you're right. What the hell are the doctors thinking? Diagnosing people?! Ha! Craziness. Having a nice talk with your mammy and pappy is a great way to fix chemical imbalances in the brain! Down with medicine!!! [/b]

in my opinion this strongly implies that you feel medicines with unpredictable results are the only method of fixing psychological disorders (chemical imbalances in the brain). whereas working through a very real disorder without chemical aids is a poor way ("great" in a sarcastic tone="poor").

thus it irritated me that you tried to paint things as so black and white. certain medicines improve certain disorders (such as gwen's loved one), and yet the same medicine may have a negative affect on another person with a similarly diagnosed condition.

so, i think it pseudo-science for the medical profession to pretend they know the exact chemical causes of psychological conditions (or even that all psychology is purely chemical), and act as if only psychotropic drugs can help, whereas non-chemical therapy and mindwork is 'superstitious' or vastly inferior.

i plan to get my specialized bachelor of science in nursing for christ's sake. don't condescendingly imply that i am anti-progress, anti-medicine, or anti-science.

Regardless of all that, I was making the point that you are not in the position to say what's best for mongreloctopus' buddy. Schizophrenia is a real problem that real people face every day. The real symptoms are often countered with real medication that really does help. * [/b]

then by the same token you are not in the position to say that it is best for a skitzophrenic to take psychotropic drugs instead of 'talking to mammy and pappy"

i was a real person with very real symptoms of skitzophrenia which were effectively countered with a real internal effort which really did help (immensely).

canyou say the same? .. to be truthful, i feel i am in a better position than yourself to suggest what may be best from mongrel's buddy, based on my own experiences with "skitzophrenia". assuming you haven't had similar experiences you have not yet shared..


we often clash heads brady, and you are a worthy advesary often time s you help me see flaws in my reasoning, or force me to refine my opinions. all i am trying to do is have a similar affect on you.

you are an atheist, and a man of science. you can view me as a new-age nut who is anti-progress if you desire to, but you will be wrong. i am simply strongly all for holding science as accountable as you hold religion. and science is far from proving that psychology disorders are treatable with predominantly 'external' means (drugs), but not 'internal' means.

i believe the mind to be dynamic. chemical processes affect the mode of consciousness, and chosen modes of consciousness affect chemical processes. stress and meditation being a readily available example. both have physiological affects, but are primarily 'internal', chosen processes.


i wish i had been diagnosed when i displayed skitzophrenic tendencies. i wish they could have discovered specific chemical properties which were responsible. and i wish i could have refused chemical treatment and conquered the skitzophrenia without need for drugs that others may need, if only to show that nonchemical remedies can be effective.

if skitzophrenia is solely caused by dna, i will be a skitzophrenic the rest of my life...and yet why do i no longer display any symptoms when i used to display many?

a person can be genetically predisposed towards being obese, but to downplay the role of internal, conscious choice is absurd. if that person makes an effort they can stay mostly healthy, and function.

i have only been advocating the opinioon that skitzophrenia can sometimes be surmounted by internal will.

even when i was very sick mentally, i would usually see small improvements when i struggled to fight my condition. when i saw it as inevitable, i deteriorated rapidly...and thus i am strongly against trusted scientists and doctors implying to people predisposed towards certain disorders that drugs are their only option. and i am all for those same scientists and doctors doing their best to come up with positive solutions,w hile at the same time making it abundantly clear what aspects of their theories and practices are incomplete and subject to change. this clarity should also encompass the avoidance of shitting on nonchemical methods of treatment when there is no proof they cannot be effective by themselves, and may result in extremely positive, lasting benefits to certain individuals.

i hope you possess enough clarity as one working towards a perfect solution (as i am) that you will admit to yourself that your mammy and pappy comment was both unfounded and biased.

i didn't talk to my parents, but only a girl who had (and still does have) skitzophrenic symptoms, and has been diagnosed with bipolar and skitzophrenia by numerous shrinks and doctors. who is still on medication last i was in contact with her.

our independently accrued symptoms were very similar in some ways. she was told by people she trusted that her internal influencewas not nearly as important as taking whichever drug of the week they prescribed. i refused to be diagnosed or treated this way, and after years of drugless effort am no longer disturbed.


i propose we both try to limit our sarcastic, hasty responses to one another (of which i am certainly guilty of as well). they seem to stem from insecurity or arrogance, neither of which are neccessary components of debate.

Yeah, you're right. What the hell are the doctors thinking? Diagnosing people?! Ha! Craziness. Having a nice talk with your mammy and pappy is a great way to fix chemical imbalances in the brain! Down with medicine!!! [/b]

^ if you had not posted such unadulterated sarcasm implying the vast superiority of unpredictable medicine over non-chemical means, i could have spared both of us one of my rambling posts