Thread: Lucid Dreams = OOBE (Astral Travel)

what i have learned:

lucid dreams are just dreams where you are concious
OOBEs are different from astral projection, because OOBEs have nothing to do with the astral plane(i just read this somewhere briefly, im still not sure if its true)


but i suppose if it is true that spirits can contact you through dreams, then i suppose the astral plane could be involved in dreaming, and i suppose OOBEs aswell, becasue i think OOBEs are just a different way of dreaming.

so really, i have never heard of what you have said, but i suppose i am open to it.

Originally Posted by slash112

what i have learned:
lucid dreams are just dreams where you are concious
OOBEs are different from astral projection, because OOBEs have nothing to do with the astral plane(i just read this somewhere briefly, im still not sure if its true)

OOBEs and Astral Projection probably have some differences if you want to be technical. All APs are OOBEs, but not all OOBEs are APs as I understand it. The difference lies in which subtle body you are occupying while out of your physical body. As I understand it, we are like a guy wearing layers of clothes; strip one layer off and underneath is another form-fitting glove made of a finer weave. So technically you might be out-of-body in one of the other bodies besides the Astral Body, and so that would technically not be an Astral Projection, but it would still be an OOBE. Of course if in your Astral Body, it would still be an OOBE if you leave the physical body behind.

Originally Posted by slash112

but i suppose if it is true that spirits can contact you through dreams, then i suppose the astral plane could be involved in dreaming, and i suppose OOBEs aswell, becasue i think OOBEs are just a different way of dreaming.

so really, i have never heard of what you have said, but i suppose i am open to it.

I think if you think dreams and Astral Projection, and OOBEs, and where we go after death are all separate places, the universe starts to get to be a very complex place indeed. But my view is that it is simpler than that; we go to one place when we dream, and when we leave our bodies, and when we die, even. The only complexity is in these bodies of finer material within our bodies, but that is pretty straight forward, too: think of them as representing radio bands where you need to tune to the next band up to hear your favorite program; that is like going out in the finer body.

Thanks for your open mind. As my dear friend RJ Kerr, now a resident of the Astral Plane, used to say when I threw a crazy concept at him, "There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."--Hamlet (Shakespeare)

I think dreams are nothing more then Day dreams. I mean if you think about it, day dreams can sometimes be vivid.

Your body is just resting when you dream so you just are "in" the daydream.

Just my thoughts.

keith, my beliefe about after death is that it is just an eternal lucid dream, it seems like it should be, and its what i hope it is. and i also hope it is a massive shared dream, so you can talk to and meet with other real people. so i suppose in a way, i do believe what you are talking about fully

Originally Posted by hellohihello

I think dreams are nothing more then Day dreams. I mean if you think about it, day dreams can sometimes be vivid.

Your body is just resting when you dream so you just are "in" the daydream.

Just my thoughts.

I have thought about this: if dreams are out-of-body-experiences, what about daydreams? Or just visualizing something? I think that the answer is, I can go outside my house and ride my bike. Or I can look out my window and watch someone ride by on their bike. If the house is my body in this analogy, I am dreaming in the first example, out-of-body and doing things on the Astral Plane. In the case where I am just looking out the window, I am daydreaming: I am still seeing something on the Astral Plane, but still inside my physical body: just looking out the window.

I think that psychics are doing what we do when we daydream when they use their clairvoyance. The difference is that when I daydream I can only see my own Astral images, just like I only hear my own thoughts in my head, but a psychic can tune into others' too.

Originally Posted by slash112

keith, my beliefe about after death is that it is just an eternal lucid dream, it seems like it should be, and its what i hope it is. and i also hope it is a massive shared dream, so you can talk to and meet with other real people. so i suppose in a way, i do believe what you are talking about fully

If you think about it, all the universe is a collective dream. We have all subscribed to it to have this common shared experience. The reality is something else, if there is an ultimate reality: I rather think that all of existence is a giant dream within a dream. We are awakened from this illusion when we die, but even that afterlife is itself a reality we need to awaken from. I mean, when you consider the ultimate question, which is not whether there is an afterlife, but how anything exists at all, and if God made it, who made God, it just boggles the mind. But at least I am not afraid of death; I know that at least we continue past death and we never lose our friends. So I think I know where I'll be in 100 years; still wondering where I'll be in 100,000,000,000 years though. Hey, as RJ used to say, "One foot in front of the other."

What is your reasoning/evidence for going against everything that most rational thought has believed about dreams for the last thousand years? It might be nice to believe what you say, but where is the evidence?

Originally Posted by paragon

What is your reasoning/evidence for going against everything that most rational thought has believed about dreams for the last thousand years? It might be nice to believe what you say, but where is the evidence?

Well, there is the evidence of my own experiences in dreams, but that is anecdotal, so you might not buy it. I know that there is ample evidence not only of my theories, but of reincarnation too. Just Google "Evidence of Reincarnation" and see what pops up; same could be said for, "Evidence of out-of-body dreams."

Have you ever had a dream which later you learned someone else had the same dream at the same time? I have. What was most interesting was that theirs was not identical, so it was not simply telepathy. The other person occupied a different location in my dreamscape as if present in a three dimensional location.

Ultimately, these ideas either resonate with you or they don't. It is difficult to prove such things; we hold the beliefs which make sense to us. When the right idea comes along for you, or you are ready for it, it will appeal to you. Then again, my concept might be wildly wrong. I am open to better concepts, if you care to offer one, I will consider it.

Originally Posted by paragon

What is your reasoning/evidence for going against everything that most rational thought has believed about dreams for the last thousand years? It might be nice to believe what you say, but where is the evidence?

the earth was flat for thousands of years till they proved it round. astral experiences can be weighed up the same. it is sad that the people requiring evidence will never stretch and try or accept things outside of the scientific realm or rational thought. sad things havent improved over the millenia. it would seem irrational to think our mind/consciousness are that limited. 'i think, therefore i am'. a known fact too is that taboos in science restrict inquiry and acceptable ideas.

Originally Posted by Keith C. Johns

Then again, my concept might be wildly wrong. I am open to better concepts, if you care to offer one, I will consider it.

I don't have an alternative theory. These are strange occurrences and all we can really do is either grope in the dark trying to understand them through speculation, or come up with an unsubstantiated theory that appeals to us and satisfy ourselves with that. I'd prefer simply to admit the reality, which is that we don't know and perhaps never will know what causes these things. We can't understand everything in life.

i just remembered about something i saw on TV, there was this kid, and im sure a lot of other people have had similar experiences, the kid kept remembering his "past-life" sometimes just memories, and sometimes through dreams, and they went to the place he was talking about and that place was very similar to how he had described.

this would prove either that reincarnation or whatever you call it is real as certain religeons describe it. or it would prove that he had a dream of a whole life until he died, but that dream was so real, that it was how we would describe as reality, which means that we could be dreaming a reality, and we are just about to wake up into our new life. which means that we never really die, we just keep going, which means it would have to be infanite, which means there isnt a start to it, which means there doesnt need to be a god.

Originally Posted by paragon

What is your reasoning/evidence for going against everything that most rational thought has believed about dreams for the last thousand years? It might be nice to believe what you say, but where is the evidence?

Also, this is not going against everything that most rational thought has believed for the last thousand years. Probably the last hundred years at the most with Freud. But quickly other rational people have expanded it, namely Carl Jung and Stanislov Grof to name a few. And there is nothing rational about dreams. Waking daytime life might be the domain of rationality, but not the realm of dreams.

I agree that dreams are a type of OOBE. In fact I would say that dreams, imagination, and OOBEs all take place in the fourth dimension.

Check out <a href="http://luciddreamyoga.ning.com">DreamTime</a> if you are curious.

Originally Posted by paragon

I don't have an alternative theory. These are strange occurrences and all we can really do is either grope in the dark trying to understand them through speculation, or come up with an unsubstantiated theory that appeals to us and satisfy ourselves with that. I'd prefer simply to admit the reality, which is that we don't know and perhaps never will know what causes these things. We can't understand everything in life.

There are unknown (to us) facts, and there are unknowable facts. The latter are mostly concepts beyond our comprehension so we may never miss knowing them, like amoebas do not miss knowing how Color TV works. Still, we can have a concept of how the system works, like a working model subject to clinical verification. We do not have to succumb to ignorance. Even if our theories are wrong, any theory is a better place to start than no theory. Yes, admit that we do not know, but start somewhere and build an idea of how it works. Someday it may all be revealed to us in a flash, but more likely reality will be revealed to us patiently when we decide to investigate for ourselves, as science has yielded to persistent curiosity.

It's the same
No doubte

Even more:
lucid dreaming = out-of-body experience = astral projection

I use the phase term for union all of this

Dreaming is the entirety of existence. ( Draming + Awake and dreaming = Everything )

Well said Keith, I agree with everything you just said.

I'd like to think that dreams are this huge vast open space filled with thoughts, not only yours but everyone's thoughts. Similar thoughts would attract to each other and that is how shared dreaming is possible, and how you'd be able to share an afterlife with the people that have the same thoughts as you.

I've been looking all this up, dreams could be taking place in time-space rather than were we are now (space-time). But if so, how does that work with the different levels of densities/or dimensions? The reality we perceive now is one frequency range within an infinite frequency range. Maybe dreams are a density sitting right between where we are now, and the next level. So many questions.

This kind of stuff is hard to prove with science, unless they start studying consciousness more..that's the key right there. If they did prove all of this, I doubt it would become mainstream.

I've been looking all this up, dreams could be taking place in time-space rather than were we are now (space-time). But if so, how does that work with the different levels of densities/or dimensions? The reality we perceive now is one frequency range within an infinite frequency range. Maybe dreams are a density sitting right between where we are now, and the next level. So many questions.

This kind of stuff is hard to prove with science, unless they start studying consciousness more..that's the key right there. If they did prove all of this, I doubt it would become mainstream.

Are you sure that science could do such investigation? It's only romantic thoughts of some romantic people and nothing more. Theory, theory, theory...

Of course it would be wonderful but no body can prove even a bit of this theories

And contrary if it's only in your brain you can practice and use it. We should concentrate on it

I believe and hope dreams are only on our heads. And anyway, in both cases OBE/AP can't be equal to a LD.
A side:
OBE/AP is a non-lucid, since you think your soul just went outside your body instead of a dream.
B side:
OBE/AP is your soul traveling around different planes of existence, thus its not even a dream or one lucid, since you are not aware of being asleep, but rather of being outside your physical body.

My definitions are basically:

Lucid dreams: your own dreams, where you are lucid

OBE: You are still in real life, but in a spiritual body, not in your physical one

AS: YOu are in the astral plane, a seperate plane of existence, with a seperate astral body.

And on the more skeptical side, I suppose they could all really be lucid dreams, just we're fooled and are thinking of all these different possibilities.

Originally Posted by ReachingForTheDream

My definitions are basically:

Lucid dreams: your own dreams, where you are lucid

OBE: You are still in real life, but in a spiritual body, not in your physical one

AS: YOu are in the astral plane, a seperate plane of existence, with a seperate astral body.

And on the more skeptical side, I suppose they could all really be lucid dreams, just we're fooled and are thinking of all these different possibilities.

Some of this is just semantics; I think there is overlap between all of these states, not necessarily a hard line; possibly you can start with one and drift into the next.

I have had regular dreams which became lucid, then morphed into out-of-body experiences (by your definition) with my room furniture all in the original positions, and then flipped into the Astral Plane as I separated from my body and the room completely reconfigured itself with all the furniture moved to different locations in what otherwise appeared to be the same room. Other lucid dreams I've had morphed back to a regular dream as I lost lucidity by getting distracted.

I would say that consciousness is a continuum and although it will be affected by the body we are operating in at that moment, be it physical, etheric, astral, mental, causal, etc., we are ultimately not our bodies, ANY of them: we are a slice of God-Stuff, and the bodies are just special gloves we are wearing temporarily to be able to manipulate different kinds of matter. Slip on a denser pair of mittens to work with something more material still, it is still us behind it all, albeit temporarily forgetting that we know other forms of matter as we focus on this one here.

Originally Posted by Walms

I believe and hope dreams are only on our heads. And anyway, in both cases OBE/AP can't be equal to a LD.
A side:
OBE/AP is a non-lucid, since you think your soul just went outside your body instead of a dream.
B side:
OBE/AP is your soul traveling around different planes of existence, thus its not even a dream or one lucid, since you are not aware of being asleep, but rather of being outside your physical body.

I used to think that my thoughts were just inside my own head. And dreams were just neurons passing between synapses inside my skull. But people related experiences where two people shared the same dream, and I couldn't understand how two people could get inside the same skull and share the same brain and neurons. Or how psychics could "see" my memories. (For that matter, how could I see my own memories, without "real" stimuli from my sensory organs feeding data to my brain for interpretation?) My eventual conclusion was that our minds are not in our bodies, we are only "driving" our bodies like a driver in a car. And our thoughts, dreams, memories, etc. are not stored inside our brains at all, but occupy another dimension where they can be seen by more than one individual at once, like a play held in the village square, not in an attic. Psychics and others who just happen to be at the same frequency at that point, can "tune in" on our thoughts and watch the actors in our internal dramas.

When I dream, lucid or not, I believe I am mostly outside my body, interacting with thought-forms I have created and am now moving around to satisfy the emotional storyline I subconsciously need to work through. It would be an interesting thing to be able to sit and observe other people's dreams unfolding; well this is possible and probably happens all the time, although we don't know about it. If you think back at some of your dreams and think they would be embarrassing to be observed by strangers, I suspect that anyone able to view other people's dreams have "seen it all" and wouldn't be surprised by anything after a while. I figure that when people move to the next world and leave their physical bodies for the last time, they not only can see the dreams of physically living people, but also the physical lives of people; like peeping Toms, they probably get their curiousity satisfied eventually and get bored and move on; there is nothing new under the sun. Privacy is an illusion on the physical plane only.

My philosophy is that I am proud of my thoughts, I earned them myself, and my fantasies and dreams have real good reasons to be the way they are, so if anyone invades my privacy, I need not be embarrassed because I like myself and I don't think anything in private that I don't profess in person. This is one of the benefits of being an honest person. Of course I am also kind, so I never insult people even if I hold a disappointing opinion of them.

Another way of looking at it is, "Hey, I am not responsible for my unconscious thoughts, just how I choose to consciously act upon my unconscious impulses." We are all bombarded by images via video, movies, TV, print media, etc., which puts ideas into our subconscious minds which play out in our thoughts and dreams: I don't think anything which shows up in our dreams, or daydreams, or casual thoughts, necessarily says much about US, but more about what we have been exposed to. I would never judge a person by their dreams, daydreams or thoughts; I would have to see a steady pattern of thoughts over a long duration to draw any real conclusions about someone, and even there, remember that people are evolving beings, not just "good" or "bad" souls.

One of the first things to go out the window, by necessity, of anyone who develops psychic abilities, and with it the ability to see other people's thoughts, dreams, etc., is judging others. We all need to make mistakes to learn from them, and the only difference between people who are wise and people who make foolish mistakes in judgment, is that the wise people had made the same mistakes long ago and learned from it, and the fools of today just haven't had enough bad experiences yet to teach them the lesson; the fools are just young. I am speaking of lifetimes of experience here, not just one; how else do you explain why some people seem to just be born wiser: they learned it in a past life, and although they don't consciously recall it, they still can unconsciously draw on that knowledge.

I think it is inevitable that we should all learn to be conscious all the time, and live beyond the confines of our physical bodies' limitations, and thus be able to interact with friends and teachers who have already left this planet, even while we are still enrolled in classroom Earth.

Good post Keith

I'm with you on this one Keith. I've had several OBEs/APs and LDs and most of the time I'm able to visit the same places in both an OBE or an LD.