Thread: Atoms

You know this forum is for 15 years old and up only?

Read this and then leave.

Please can we let this thread die guys...

It's not a mistake. It's called the laws of physics, particularly the electromagnetic force which is almost completely responsible for chemical interactions, and statistical thermodynamics. which governs what chemical states are explored in a system.

There's no 'deciding' in chemistry. Atoms do not randomly decide to combine to form molecules. They do so under a certain set of conditions, and providing these conditions are the same, the reaction will always be the same*.

*Not strictly true in a quantum system, but in macroscopic systems this is the case.

I am 15

Originally Posted by Photolysis

It's not a mistake. It's called the laws of physics, particularly the electromagnetic force which is almost completely responsible for chemical interactions, and statistical thermodynamics. which governs what chemical states are explored in a system.

There's no 'deciding' in chemistry. Atoms do not randomly decide to combine to form molecules. They do so under a certain set of conditions, and providing these conditions are the same, the reaction will always be the same*.

*Not strictly true in a quantum system, but in macroscopic systems this is the case.

Okay sorry lemme get my head around this
So all atoms are governed by a set of rules?

So all atoms are governed by a set of rules?

Correct. The electromagnetic force is what causes them to react. Thermodynamics is what governs the ways in which they are likely to react.

At a basic level, the way atoms will react can be predicted relatively easily. But it becomes much harder to predict in a complicated system, but the underlying principals are the same.

Yes, chemical bonding occurs due to the nature of the atoms. In particular, it is controlled by the negative electrons which orbit those atoms, and the positive charges of the atoms. The number of electrons and the way they are arranged around the positive nucleus, and the attraction between these positive and negative charges, is what causes the whole of chemistry.

Everything in the universe occurs due to various rules. Finding these rules is called 'science'.

So these rules govern everything

Of course. Haven't you noticed gravity? For example..

Yes. But if atoms where goveverned by gavity and thats it wont they fly together and create . . . im not sure what lol

They'd basically form black holes yes but repulsions between the negative charges of electrons which are on the outside of atoms stops that from happening.

Okay okay im slowly getting this.
But if the same laws governed everthing why isn't everything the same.

(And please dont try and attack me or ram this down my throat im just curious and hoping to understand the world a little better)

Well they do, but it's so weak that you don't really notice it, if it isn't on a large scale. There are four elementary "forces" (I know somebody will correct me on this):
Strong
Weak
Electromagnetic
Gravity

They explain every possible interaction between mass an energy.

Okay okay im slowly getting this.
But if the same laws governed everthing why isn't everything the same.

The same laws do govern everything.

What do you mean, why isn't everything the same? Everything does act in the same way in the same situation.

Yes. But if atoms where goveverned by gavity and thats it wont they fly together and create . . . im not sure what lol

Gravity is so weak on the atomic scale that it is essentially meaningless. It can safely be ignored because the resulting error is so tiny.

They don't implode in on themselves due to electromagnetic repulsion. Likewise the strong force stops atoms from flying apart into protons and neutrons.

Okay okay im slowly getting this.
But if the same laws governed everthing why isn't everything the same.

Because the *conditions* are not the same!

Under the exact same conditions, the same thing will happen (again, except for certain quantum systems). The thing is, the conditions are not the same, hence the difference.

Same conditions --> same reaction

Different conditions --> different reaction

Originally Posted by Hera

Okay okay im slowly getting this.
But if the same laws governed everthing why isn't everything the same.

(And please dont try and attack me or ram this down my throat im just curious and hoping to understand the world a little better)

This is actually an important question if you go back to the Big Bang. Why isn't the universe homogeneous? If it started from a singularity, the no hair theorem (saying that black holes are determined completely by their mass, spin, and charge) says that it should be the same everywhere because the black hole that spawned the universe was symmetrical. But it turns out, quantum mechanics explains this by saying that all the processes in the universe are fundamentally probabilistic, and our physical laws only say what outcomes are most likely, at least on the small scale. So when the Big Bang happened, within the tiniest fraction of a second, there were already clumps forming in the particle soup, which then went on to become superclusters of galaxies.

But like the others said, outcomes are determined by initial conditions. Think of the laws of the universe as a set of formulas (well, they are usually formulas) that take in data and spit out data. Obviously, if you put in different data, you get out different data. But in addition to that, there's also the small matter of chaos, which basically says that even with the same initial data, you can still get different results, but that's for another thread.

Originally Posted by Hera

Atoms are the building blocks of life. Every living thing is built of atoms. So how do atoms make, say a cat? an atom does not have a brain??? how does it decide im going to pair with those atoms and we will make a cell, that will create tissue, that will make an organ wich will belong to a cat??? What governs what atoms do? It cant be a happy mistake that they randomly bumb into eachother and BOOM a cat or WOW a tree. If it was a mistake then there could only be 1 . . .
This is really making my brain melt!
Anyone have any ideas???

Hi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atom

Bye.

Originally Posted by Xei

The same laws do govern everything.

What do you mean, why isn't everything the same? Everything does act in the same way in the same situation.

How can everything act the same???
You (humans) and a tree don't act the same?

So atoms respond to the conditions they are in?

They do act the same. They are all bound by the same laws and are essentially made of the same thing.
They are made from different combinations of atoms. A tree doesn't have a brain, or legs... How can you expect it to be the same if it isn't.

You need to check out some basic science, it will all become clear. Atoms, molecules, cells... Even if we're all made of protons and nutrons, the matter itself doesn't mean everything should be the same. The strong nuclear force keeps the neutrons and protons together so we can have different types of elements. They create molecules etc.

You (humans) and a tree don't act the same?

You don't seem to understand how things react, or properties of things. This should be obvious.

All things are governed by the same set of physical laws. The the reaction of both carbon and hydrogen with oxygen are governed by the same force; the EM force.

So if they are governed by the same force why do they react differently? Because carbon atoms have different properties to hydrogen atoms. Why does hydrogen gas react differently to a H+ ion? They have different properties.

Different conditions, different results. Why doesn't a 4x4 have the same power as a sports car; they're both cars and both obey the same rules? Because they have different properties.


Why don't humans act like trees? Because we are mammals with a electro-chemical central nervous system and completely different atomic and biochemical makeup. Trees operate on a hormonal control system with completely different chemistry. Why would you expect them to act identically?

The difference in properties means you get different results. You need to understand this basic fact.

mayb im just too stupid to get this.
thanks anyway

So far what i get is:
Everything is made of atoms.
Everything is governed by ruels (the same rules)
Atoms respond to the conditions they are in.
Thing aren't the same because of the way atoms react.

I can't even remeber what i was asking and why.

Things are different because there are different kinds of atoms. Every atom has a certain ammount of electrons, neutrons and protons. Different combinations of these give different kind of atoms and different kind of materials. Then they combine into different kind of molecules. That's why there is so much diversety.

Not much time, I'll be brief.

Know that on a more complex, single cellular level, organisms are not the same due to the DNA which orchestrates which proteins are produced. A cat will be formed different than a person, and people will look different than eachother. A tree is composed of different cells constructed for different purposes (photosynthesis, etc.). Bacteria have no necleus, etc.

How did atoms come together so perfectly? Sure, there are laws. Most atoms like to have eight electrons in its outer shell and will fuse with other atoms to achieve this. Some will tell you this is random chance and evolution worked around it, others (like myself) will point to God.