Thread: Betcha can't tell me this

Originally posted by ffx-dreamz
Where is the end of the universe. Nothing can go on forever according to physics. What I have conceived is that there is no end because the universe is in a sort of sphere.Does anyone agree?Or it could be something like men in black where we are not the biggest beings but mere particles or unevolved mere atom type things compared to the bigger things.While I highly doubt this, you give me a reason to dismiss it as pure fiction.

you seek to bound infinity? then tell me: what's outside of the sphere?

I couldn't imagine...

It's one of those things like thinking what it would be like before ANYTHING existed... it really hurts ur braing when u get into it... cuz ugh ouch!

lol

but I have NO idea what the end of the universe would be like...

but hey


i'm just twelve

well im just 13 and I have to agree, it hurts your brain.I get into these really deep conversations with my friend about different things in philosphy, and when we are finished I feel worn out from all that.

(sigh) there is no end. i've never understood the need of people to place unnecessary boundaries upon things. i suppose it makes it easier simply to comprehend; or rather, to dismiss. while there is of course proof to substantiate the big bang theory, and to show "the universe" as expanding (one day to retract, and then cycle through again), it seems reasonable to me that there could have likely been infinite big bangs throughout infinite vacuous space, which makes up the true "universe." we simply live in an infinitely small portion of it.

woah there icedawg dont get ahead of yourself!

Originally posted by wasup
woah there icedawg dont get ahead of yourself!

AHA! see? there it is. someone who doesn't like the idea of infinity, thus seeks bounds. you people suck.

i also love people who like to retort with half-baked replies like, "infinity doesn't exist." for example, w/ respect to numbers, clearly it's not something tangible. it's more than an idea or a concept though; it's a direction. you may as well argue "North" doesn't exist.

Im just putting a boundary on it because I try to think logically and thinking about an infinite thing is hard to imagine.

Originally posted by ffx-dreamz
Im just putting a boundary on it because I try to think logically and thinking about an infinite thing is hard to imagine.

but logic implies a bound cannot exist. bounds beg the question: what exists on the other side? thus a paradox.

Yes thats right, but maybe (like on futurama) there is an alternate universe? I dunno, its an interesting topic though.

I seriously think it's doughnut shaped.

well if your not joking thats a very likely thing to.

This is all hypothetical, just teleology. How do you know Africa exists if you've never been there?

How do you know the universe exists if you've never been outside the little sphere of your own?

The universe is your conciousness, dreams are real, a construct of your mind, just like... GASP... The Universe through your eyes. I am only an egg in this subject though.

The universe is infinite, and then its not, its the same as..its everything, and its nothing..the truth is we would travel forever we would simply go in circles..because its really infinite and not..everything..and nothing.., eerything is energy, we travel this energy rivers..we are energy..thus we ARE everything, this is very deep indeed..try not to understand to much, its many things, sometimes not thinking gives you more then thinking..

the above is vague, and you can only understand it..if you do already : P

the universe will end tomarrow, sorry i didnt give you guys prior warning...oh, you can blame me, cause its my fault...dont really worry about it, soon enough you wont care

Sorry folks, I have to disagree, our universe is not infinite.

We experience our universe as a four dimensional space-time continuum, however string theory holds that there are really 11 dimensions in our continuum. This continuum came into existance roughly 20 billion years ago at the time of the big bang and began inflating. It is continuing to inflate at an accelerating rate. In theory, you could head off in one direction and eventually come full circle to your point of departure.

Unfortunately, you could never go full circle because the universe is expanding more rapidly than you can travel.

Now, as to what is outside our universe. It is easier to think of this using the Flatlander model (2 dimensional universe)

They live on an X/Y plane and have no concept or way to experience what is above or below them (Z axis). There are infinite universes stacked with theirs on the Z axis, but they cannot reach them.

Extrapolate the 11 dimensions of our own universe to fit this model and you will get an infinate number positioned along Axis 12. Extrapolate again and you get an infinate number of 12 dimensional universes positioned along axis 13, and so on for all infinity.

At least, that is how I see it.

You rull Seeker! As the president of the Astronomy Club, I see I still have much to learn.

Originally posted by Seeker
Sorry folks, I have to disagree, our universe is not infinite.

We experience our universe as a four dimensional space-time continuum, however string theory holds that there are really 11 dimensions in our continuum. This continuum came into existance roughly 20 billion years ago at the time of the big bang and began inflating. It is continuing to inflate at an accelerating rate. In theory, you could head off in one direction and eventually come full circle to your point of departure.

Unfortunately, you could never go full circle because the universe is expanding more rapidly than you can travel.

Now, as to what is outside our universe. It is easier to think of this using the Flatlander model (2 dimensional universe)

They live on an X/Y plane and have no concept or way to experience what is above or below them (Z axis). There are infinite universes stacked with theirs on the Z axis, but they cannot reach them.

Extrapolate the 11 dimensions of our own universe to fit this model and you will get an infinate number positioned along Axis 12. Extrapolate again and you get an infinate number of 12 dimensional universes positioned along axis 13, and so on for all infinity.

At least, that is how I see it.

sure sounds to me like someone speaks of infinity here, sport. you simply place a bounding definition on the word "universe"; then go on to say (forgive my rudimentary language here) stuff spans eternity outside of "the universe." perhaps it's the word "universe" itself that's too restrictive, and another term should be coined to encompass all things.

It is another type of infinity. Originally the term 'Universe' meant all that there was.

Then some rocket scientist came up with the concept of other dimensions and universes and shot it all to pieces.

I've heard the term 'Multiverse' used before, seems to fit better somehow.

I think this question is beyond us all. We could run rings around each other just by even thinking of this concept. But let me give my opinion on this matter. Universe is infinite or not?
Hmmmmmmmm....
You mean its size ? don't you? Or do you mean its weight? Or duration? May be you mean its beauty, blackness or its enigma?
Perhaps we are asking wrong question here.
What has a concept such as 'size' to do with something like 'universe'?
Its like asking - What's the color of my life? Or what is the weight of temperature?
Universe is Not an object.....its a Process !

Again, size(spatial limitedness) has no direct relation to finiteness or infiniteness. A spatially limited object can be infinite. Take a finite circle with a man at its centre, who's walking towards its circumference with finite speed, and imagine that every time he walks some distance, he reduces in size by half....so that it takes double the amount of time to walk same distance again. Obviously he never reaches there; it'll take an infinite duration of time. The circle appears to him, of infinite size.

Infinity is real. Face the music !
It's a mathematical object, a conceptual tool and a mental construct, but it's real. Simplest example is a set of real numbers. There are many kinds of infinites of different orders. Refer Rudy Rucker for easy explanations. But one should be cautious about applying such concepts to 'size', 'duration' etc.

A finite universe leads to (perhaps silly?)questions such as - what is 'outside' it? And what will 'happen' to it? And what was before it? An infinite one avoids them, but is totally incomprehensible for human mind. May be its neither. Multiverse theories add complexity to existing views, but don't really provide an answer.

IMO, 'size' loses any meaning for very small as well as for very large. Universe is a process which will appear to be continuing in time or growing/shrinking in space because of some mysterious qualities of our physico-subjective world view. However no such thing is actually happening. And may be since we use light as our reference, which we ourselves don't understand fully, we'll never know. Whatever it is, it's really fascinating.....

Originally posted by Seeker
It is another type of infinity. Originally the term 'Universe' meant all that there was.

Then some rocket scientist came up with the concept of other dimensions and universes and shot it all to pieces.

I've heard the term 'Multiverse' used before, seems to fit better somehow.

but you haven't really argued that i'm incorrect though.

Originally posted by ShadowNightWing
Infinity is real. Face the music !
It's a mathematical object, a conceptual tool and a mental construct, but it's real. Simplest example is a set of real numbers. There are many kinds of infinites of different orders. Refer Rudy Rucker for easy explanations. But one should be cautious about applying such concepts to 'size', 'duration' etc.

A finite universe leads to (perhaps silly?)questions such as - what is 'outside' it? And what will 'happen' to it? And what was before it? An infinite one avoids them, but is totally incomprehensible for human mind. May be its neither. Multiverse theories add complexity to existing views, but don't really provide an answer.

yah, i gave the example of infinity w/ respect to numbers already, trying to spite those that galavant around claiming infinity doesn't exist.

i disagree that an infinite universe is incomprehensible for the human mind; i find a bounded universe incomprehensible.

ouch!!! Alepha-1!!! , the pain, visions of transinfinite numbers coming back from college days!!

Infinity is. It's a fact. Works for the large and the small. The only hangup I had was on the word 'Universe'. It is finite. But, it's just a word to describe our little corner of the 'All'

EDIT: Interesting link http://www.mathacademy.com/pr/minitext/infinity/

Originally posted by icedawg
.yah, i gave the example of infinity w/ respect to numbers already, trying to spite those that galavant around claiming infinity doesn't exist.

yup I know you did but I just figured I back you up on it because I can make it sound better. No Offense Haha!!!

I told you in our convo already seeker, infinit is only what the eye can see and what science can see, and somethings will never be seen by science, and are never meant to be seen by it, and you know that

And indeed, why must we understand anyway a thing such as the infinity of the universe, how about understanding the infinity of the mind and the soul. Try that first, like I said before..how can you understand the cosmos if you cant even understand yourself..^_^ *happy music*