The Devastatingly Controversial Abortion Thread

[lysergic]

This thread was requested.

i think abortion is wrong. my mother gave birth to me. i'm grateful. end of story. i put some stock in the value of life.

i understand the pro-choice point of view, but i can't agree with it.

[Omnis Dei]

In before lock

No, I'm kidding! I'm typing up a real post right now

Ahem!!!!

I wish I was aborted, what now?

No, I don't, but I bet some people do

Besides, lot's of little girls will die... lot's of little girls that wanted a paternal figure in their life and ended up doing the nasty and paying for it.

I like abortion! :hurray for abortion:

No, abortion is good and be should encouraged by the government and at certain times required.

A fetus is really just a flatworm except it looks like an alien.

And is a dog above a cat or a pig?

Is a whale above a zebra?

A chimp above a dolphin?

Is a street sweeper above a scientist when the street sweeper removes the banana peel that would have broke the scientist's neck? While the scientist was busy not discovering correlations between smoking and cancer?

I jack off to aborted babies sometimes when boobs get boring.

heil!

I don't have a punching bag so usually when I get mad I just throw aborted feti at people. Makes me smile.

[Neruo]

I wish you was aborted, Lysergic.

Anyhow. No reason why not to get rid of a bunch of cells if you don't want what they might become. Embryos with no brain-activity: there simply is no reason to give a shit about them. Stop crying over nothing.

[juroara]

im against abortion but I also think its a moral choice between you and God, figure that one out

[Black_Eagle]

I wish you was aborted, Lysergic.

Anyhow. No reason why not to get rid of a bunch of cells if you don't want what they might become. Embryos with no brain-activity: there simply is no reason to give a shit about them. Stop crying over nothing.

But then, there's no telling what that ball of cells could become. It might become a serial killer or the greatest leader the world has ever known.

How bout they invent a new form of birth control that keeps females suppressed until the age 18?

[O'nus]

Abortion can be taken from two major views, I will consider them here:

1 - God exists. Then the real question becomes, when does a person develop a soul? I ask this because this would be when we would be murdering the body that contains the soul. Let us start at when the baby is born - we can agree that it has a soul then. So, if a child has a soul because it has a body, then it can be derived that a materialistic construct is required in order for an essence to have a soul. Ergo, the fetus has a soul, the ovary has a soul, and the sperm have a soul. Thusly, the soul of one individual is gained from the materialistic embodiements of their combined materialistic parents. So this leads us to ask - well, where did all of human kinds bodies originate..? From a theist prospective - God. God gave us phsyical bodies in order for our souls to live in. Thusly, our soul is born from God and spread from our materialistic parents. Now we must ask, is this morally wrong..?

I refuse to quote the Bible here because of the following reasons; theists rely on the Bible as it is believed it is the words from God. In order to receive the words from God, a human must hear them and write them down. When the human hears them and writes the words down - they will no longer be Gods words but the replication of them from human beings. Thusly, the original premiss that we should believe in the Bible's words because they are God's words is invalid and false.

To continue from point 1 - is this morally wrong? Well, theists would also like to believe that we are given free will. If we have free will, then we should be able to make choices on how to deliberate your materialistic body. Since we have illustrated how we are, for a time being, a materialistic make-up in our parents and that we gain our souls from them - it is not our choice until we are no longer a materialistic construct of our parents and independent from them. In other words, we do not share the same body. In conclusion, it seems to make logical sense that a theist could easily take the stand-point that we should have the choice of abortion as we are the materialistic make-up of our parents for roughly 9 months.

Of course, theists could easily say that this is then murdering God's soul and that we should not make the decision to do so. Then we come to the problem of free-will in this respect. Then we must consider the purpose of the soul and many other problems in this case. I will not dive into this point as I have met a fair number of theists who have agreed with the aforementioned. If there are theists who disagree with this point, please illustrate to me why and let us go from there.

Point 2 - Atheists take the same stance but with a different question - when are humans considered to be alive? Notice the similarity? We must then define life and living. I usually liked to ask atheists (or scientists/empiricists/etc.) when is it truly considered murder if aborting a 5 month fetus is wrong..? What about contraceptives? Does a condom not contain spermacide that murders sperm? Does not birth control prevent the development of ovaries by fooling the body that it is pregnant..?

I will not delve too far into this point as I would like to see the responses before exhaustively pontificating the points.

I hope I stirred the pot.

~

[Sandform]

I would much rather people not get pregnant, if you were all gay well you wouldn't have to worry. Surrogate mothers, sperm banks, etc. Figure that out.


Ok so to be serious. There is nothing wrong with abortion. I wish I had been aborted, it would have been nice to not ever exist as apposed to exist and then die. Now that I exist people know about me, I am a character in their minds, and now I end up worrying about other people and myself. If I never existed it wouldn't matter.

Propaganda is spewed from the theistic pro-life crazies. "Oh mommy I have consciousness from day 1 of pregnancy! I also need to spread more disinformation so listen to me while I speak in this pamphlet."

Here is a question, sperm and egg meet each other in a petri dish. Is it murder to not implant that into the female?

It really makes no sense to say that stopping sperm from meeting ova isn't murder if you're going to say that stopping the sperm and ova from forming a living being is murder.

[Sornaensis]

Fetuses are parasitic, and the choice to bear them is entirely the mother's.

[spockman]

If you believe the debate comes down to whether or not the fetus is a human life or not I think the choice is fairly clear.

The cell has become an independent, (independant implying that it is it's own life form, not that it isn't dependent on the mother,) organism. The egg has become completley fertilized. Reproduction has taken place as the new life is there. It is a living group of cells. It is a life it's own... So what type of life is it? If not human life, then what? It is a human life. Preventing a life from occuring can very well be defined as different from ending an organism that has begun. So, by that definition, the day after pill is whatev', abortion not so much.

Now, if you don't think that the debate boils down to whether or not it's a human life, when factors such as concioussness and awarness and the intrinscic (or lack thereof) value of life and 'where' it is applied come in, that's when it becomes debatable.

As far as, 'thier life may be bad and they would be better off being dead' no-one has the right to ascertain what the quality of someone elses life will be. Period.

So I hold no stock in the arguments of quality of life and it's not a human yet.

I am, however, open to discussion on the other issues.

I do believe in the intrinsic value of a human. I believe it is inherent in a human being and I value all of humanity. Therefore, I am Pro-Life. Woot.

[Mes Tarrant]

Fetuses that are aborted (and I don't want to hear anything about those late-term abortions. I am against THOSE, for sure. Why the fuck would you wait months before aborting. Stupid assholes. ) are less complicated than a fly. If you are pro-life, stop killing flies, you horrible monsters.

"Oh but the fetus has the potential to become a human being, boo hoo." Yeah so does every egg I produce on a monthly basis, and so does every one of your squirmy sperm. *begin song: "Every Sperm is Sacred" from Monty Python.*

Anyhow. No reason why not to get rid of a bunch of cells if you don't want what they might become. Embryos with no brain-activity: there simply is no reason to give a shit about them. Stop crying over nothing.

Yeah. Whoo!

[spockman]

I value a human life, even an undeveloped and unaware human life, above a fly. The way I value life is like this, I value mankind above ape, which is aove a canine, which is above a lizard, which is above an insect, which is above an ameoba.

And an egg or a sperm isn't human life. Once the two fully merge, ad it is an independent organism, it is classified as a human organism.

[ClouD]

This thread was requested.

i think abortion is wrong. my mother gave birth to me. i'm grateful. end of story. i put some stock in the value of life.

i understand the pro-choice point of view, but i can't agree with it.

"I gave you life, I can take it away!" ~ My mother's idea of winning an argument.

[ClouD]

I value a human life, even an undeveloped and unaware human life, above a fly. The way I value life is like this, I value mankind above ape, which is aove a canine, which is above a lizard, which is above an insect, which is above an ameoba.

And an egg or a sperm isn't human life. Once the two fully merge, ad it is an independent organism, it is classified as a human organism.

Kill yourself and save hundreds of lives, then.
Your very existence is 100% consumption.
Nothing has value, your body will die one day to feed your successors.

[♥Mark]

The way I value life is like this, I value mankind above ape, which is aove a canine, which is above a lizard, which is above an insect, which is above an ameoba.

You're missing a few.

[Scatterbrain]

I value mankind above ape

Taking this as an example.

Why is a human life more valuable than the life of an ape? Is it because they're less intelligent?

So I suppose that if a human has to die, it's not so bad if it is a mentally retarded one?


I think the deciding factor in abortion is consciousness. If the fetus doesn't feel, then he's no different than a plant.

If it's conscious, big whoop. Thousands of innocent fully developed children die all the time and I don't see the pro-lifers complaining about that. And don't forget animals too, they maybe dumber but they still feel and get tortured by us in massive numbers.

I don't really care if abortions are done, but there should be a choice.

[Endless]

Abortions are wrong. However, it should be a choice between the mother and deciding what's best for the child.


Example: Mother who's poor, can barely afford to support herself, should be able to decide whether or not to bring the child into the world because once the child is here, it's going to be tough to raise and the child will probably live in poverty for a long period of his/her life, or possibly forever.

[spockman]

Kill yourself and save hundreds of lives, then.

Yes, well, I'm not saving hundreds of human lives by killing myself.

It comes down to whether or not there is inherent value in a life-form or obtained. I believe that the value in a human being is intrinsic.

[Xei]

By anti-abortionist logic every woman should have as many children as is humanly possible to avoid not giving birth to potential beings.

Hence by anti-abortionist logic we should turn Earth into a living hell.

Bundles of cells aren't inherently conscious, otherwise amputations would be illegal. Abortions are no different. As long as they're done before the foetus becomes conscious. When is that? Perhaps it can be defined as when its neural network begins the process of learning, which is far enough into pregnancy to have opportunity to abort.

Of course in a utopian environment there would be no problem, as no woman would become unintentionally pregnant.

[GestaltAlteration]

If you can switch the status of a feutus from "parasite" to "child" at the whims of your flimsy emotions and 'peace of mind' than you are the ultimate moron.

35,000,000 flies dead and counting. Rationalization FTW.

[Sornaensis]

I value a human life, even an undeveloped and unaware human life, above a fly. The way I value life is like this, I value mankind above ape, which is aove a canine, which is above a lizard, which is above an insect, which is above an ameoba.

And an egg or a sperm isn't human life. Once the two fully merge, ad it is an independent organism, it is classified as a human organism.

What makes a Canine more important than a Lizard?

Or a Human than an Insect?

After all, insects predate humans by nearly 1 billion years.

[Xei]

The Cambrian explosion was only 500 million years ago...

[Sornaensis]

The Cambrian explosion was only 500 million years ago...

My bad, .5 Billion years.

[Grod]

I'm all for abortion if it's for the first or second trimester, I think. But when it gets to the point where it's got a brain, a heart, and some other critical organs, then I'm against it. Just because it's in a mothers uterus doesn't mean it's not a fucking kid.

And the 'mother's choice' bullshit or whatever is stupid. The man made that baby too.

[Xei]

.4 for insects. >:U

OD; I'd place humans above other animals because they have been shown to be much more intelligent, at it seems reasonable to believe that intelligence can be correlated with consciousness. Where would your argument stop? Single celled organisms?

[Sornaensis]

I'm all for abortion if it's for the first or second trimester, I think. But when it gets to the point where it's got a brain, a heart, and some other critical organs, then I'm against it. Just because it's in a mothers uterus doesn't mean it's not a fucking kid.

And the 'mother's choice' bullshit or whatever is stupid. The man made that baby too.

The man isn't bearing the kid, though. He gets to stand on the sidelines.