Thread: does the ends justify the means?

Well this is a question about the neccessity of war correct?

Yes, it is. Not because it has a purpose, nor because it is honorable, but just because it is inevitable. Wars are going to be fought no matter what anyone is going to do. There are always going to be people that hate each other, and each other's opinions. This is realism.

To the question of does the ends of justify the means. I think it is a very subjective question. Not only because people follow different codes of morality, but because the answer itself is very contradicting under different circumstances.

Lets take your example. From the perspective of the soldiers, it is necessary to kill the woman for their own safety. However, from the perspective a univeral code of morals, it is not justified. As killing on any degree is a crime. On one hand, the woman might give the troops away, but on the other hand, the woman might have no intentions of the sort, which means that taking her life would be completely immoral.

Another example. Take Machiavelli's ideals in The Prince. From a general standpoint. The state would be totally secure and stable. But the from the people's standpoint, the ends of being confined to perpetual oppression under the state is not justified.

I guess my point is that a question of this magnitude is not easily answered, as not only will people disagree on what is good or bad, there will be inconsistancies of the results as to from what perspective to judge the ends by. Something like this isn't a easy decision for a person to make, otherwise there wouldn't be conflicts over actions and responsibilties. Otherwise there would not be 11 views on this topic without anyone giving a definite reply. Otherwise that sergeant would have made his decision a long time ago. The reason why he paused is what makes him, and each one of us, human.

I personally can not make this decision. There are just too many variables to consider and evaluate.

that's why i asked it.

i also said that you know it's the woman... beyond any doubt. she is endangering you and your troops.

it all does fall on perspective also, that's why i said, "forget about your duty to your country, your name, and your reputation." -- i want you to think as a monkey (as weird as that may sound). could you turn a cheek to your morals? if there's a 99.99% chance that what this woman has (and will continue) to leak about your location will result in more death... or do you want to take that .01% chance? can you jeopardize your morals for .01%?

this isn't an easy question... but please think about it. what would you do?

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also, i wanted to lead into another topic as soon as more people reply.

Ok I will answer your question if you put it into that perspective adidas.

The answer is, yes. I do believe the ends will justify the means (Note: IN this case). Particularly when you say that I should not take in account of anything including nationality, the reason for the war, etc. And I KNOW for certain the woman is endangering my whole paltoon.

I believe that one of the fundamental rights of human beings is the one to self-preservation. And I base my response on that.

I think in most cases the answer would be no. I know its just a question but I doubt there would be any case where there is not a single way to stop her except for shooting her. If she is walking around free and calling up her friends I would not call her a "prisoner".

Let say for arguement shake she can though, I would say ditch her. Chances are she would just get herself killed when you get attacked anyway, and if she is so ready to throw away her life, and is putting yours in risk I don't think its that bad to just leave.

As for war, I think people are going to do it no matter what. Some times it is also needed, though its never really a good thing.

I think it basicly comes down to, the bigger the problem, the more you might be willing to do. I think the question comes down to, did you try everything else you could do first? If your last option comes down to kill the woman or you all die, its not that bad. If your taking the easy way out then it is bad.

Originally posted by Alric
I think it basicly comes down to, the bigger the problem, the more you might be willing to do. I think the question comes down to, did you try everything else you could do first? If your last option comes down to kill the woman or you all die, its not that bad. If your taking the easy way out then it is bad.

Yes. Good way to put it Alric.

Basically, all this question is asking is would you betray your morals to save your, and your platoons, asses.As for doing that well...I believe I would.Then ends does justify the means in this case.That woman obviously does not value her life or the babies life, and definately doesn't value you or your platoons life.If their is absolutely no way to stop her I would leave her behind.That question is not an easy one to answer, and it definately shows your personality.So, even though there are many perspectives, I feel you want us to see it through the eyes of the seargent, and if I was the seargent, she would have to go.

Ok.
In the situation which adidas described: YES, you should kill/leave her behind.

As for ends justify the means, I'd say there is no 100% true template.

Everything should be decided according to CIRCUMSTANCES. Judging in advance in my eyes is prejudice and stubborness.

What is good for one person is evil for another.

Think of Hitler and WW2. He hated everyone exept germans. He was a hero for his people, yet a devil for the rest of the world...

Think of a guy who wants to relegalize marijuana or acid? He thinks he's doing good thing. he has supporters.

Think of a guy who wants to keep marijuana and acid banned? He thinks he's doing good thing. He has supporters as well...

Originally posted by Ev
As for ends justify the means, I'd say there is no 100% true template.

Everything should be decided according to CIRCUMSTANCES

This is exactly what I think. I can think of many cases in which I would believe the end justified the means, but many many others in which I think there is no way to justify what was done(Clear and current example: War in Irak)

I would have to actually be there making the desicion in order to be able to tell you whether, in that particular case, it does or it doesn't.

I would have to say that the ends would justify the means, shes putting your troops at risk and chances are more people will die if she is alowed to leak information then if you kill her.
However even believing that it was the right course of action, i'm sure it would haunt me for the rest of my days.

Wanderer

This is a difficult subject to really give a distinct answer on. To take a humans life that is threatening your existence is one thing, but if there is an innocent causalty that may be involved... makes it a lot harder.

I've dealt with EPWs, or Enemy Prisoners of War, before, but I had the luxury of having the Military Police pick them up for questioning.

A guy in Delta Force said, "That once the bullets fly, politics go out the window." This may sound cold hearted, but when it comes down to it. You do what you have to to stay alive. If your a sergeant, your are responsible for the lives of your troops. If something threatens the your safety, you eliminate it. That's the cold hard facts of war.

It's not something I am terribly proud of, but I was prepared to do what ever it took to get my home safely, even take the life of another.

And sometimes, that knowledge of what I am capable of tears me apart inside.

Tricky question. I'm inclined to give the answer that she's no different from a male spy, the fact that she's a woman doesnt count, the fact that she's pregnant proves she's stupid. Her life, of ours. Though I think it sounds pretty harsh. Some social dogma stuff goin on here too. (dunno if those are the right words lol, somebody explain this better them me)

However, it doesn't necessarly give you the right to play god and say whether or not 1 life is worth those of a thousand (or whatever a platoon is made up of; I'm not sure). But personally, I think I would kill her, since the lives of all my buddies are at stake, along with the effects of their wives/children.

And who knows if this woman was even married? Was she raped?

All these things can go through your mind (and I'm not being ignorant here; I know that this woman may have had a husband or lover or whatever), but you know that these are your friends and they definately have families.

I'm not even sure you can call killing her the lesser of two evils.