Thread: Free Will an Illusion?

That's a good one. I think it should be obvious to anyone who thinks that free will is an illusion, but that thought experiment illustrates it nicely. Still, people will find things to nitpick.

I liked this part in fallout 3.

I sure hope Dave had a good life.

*Edit I just started playing Fallout 3, so I sure hope Flanders just didn't spoil it for me.

Originally Posted by drewmandan

That's a good one. I think it should be obvious to anyone who thinks that free will is an illusion, but that thought experiment illustrates it nicely.

LEST YE ALL UNBELIEVERS HEAR ME! Drewmandan speaks not with hate or contempt, but with concurrence and approval! To all those who denied his misunderstood soul, look unto him now and see your folly!

On another note, nice thought experiment. However, its the ending that is the clincher. It doesn't necessarily show that freewill as a whole is an illusion, but that Dave's sole perspective of it is. The outside observer is aware that Dave is not making any real choices.

But what of the man who's experiences were recorded? How do you prove that his "freewill" was an illusion?

Originally Posted by ExoByte

LEST YE ALL UNBELIEVERS HEAR ME! Drewmandan speaks not with hate or contempt, but with concurrence and approval! To all those who denied his misunderstood soul, look unto him now and see your folly!

On another note, nice thought experiment. However, its the ending that is the clincher. It doesn't necessarily show that freewill as a whole is an illusion, but that Dave's sole perspective of it is. The outside observer is aware that Dave is not making any real choices.

But what of the man who's experiences were recorded? How do you prove that his "freewill" was an illusion?

Thats not the point of it.

The only point of it is to show that you can "feel like" you have free will, but actually not. Thats its only goal, and it accomplishes it.

Yeah, Dave's world might somehow have free will, yet the person in the pod definitely does not. Although I can't imagine how free will would exist.

Thanks for the comments, I'm surprised no one has found any problem with this.

How do you extend this to us though?

We are not (presumably) in virtual reality pods having somebody else's experiences played to us, so how does this argument suggest that any of us has no free will?

Originally Posted by Xei

How do you extend this to us though?

We are not (presumably) in virtual reality pods having somebody else's experiences played to us, so how does this argument suggest that any of us has no free will?

Well the argument isn't all encompassing, my point wasn't to prove determinism. It really just says that free will can be an illusion.

But wouldn't the recording be just that: A recording? By experiencing what Dave was doing, you are only watching things that already happened. It sounds similar to declaring free will doesn't exist because a convincing actor in a movie appears to have free will, but is following a predefined script.

Well the argument isn't all encompassing, my point wasn't to prove determinism. It really just says that free will can be an illusion.

Okay, cool.

Well, on the scale of our neurons, things are pretty much entirely deterministic, it is believed.

Although the whole idea about realilty being deterministic has really been redundant for decades, now that we have quantum theory.

Originally Posted by Xei

Okay, cool.

Well, on the scale of our neurons, things are pretty much entirely deterministic, it is believed.

Although the whole idea about realilty being deterministic has really been redundant for decades, now that we have quantum theory.

Quantum theory doesn't solve the problem of free will. If anything, it makes it worse. Now not only are you not in control of your thoughts, but the universe isn't either.

Like I said though, quantum mechanics doesn't effect the brain (it is currently thought).

John Conway to the rescue
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will_theorem#Axioms
\thread end

Like the Zeno paradox, mathematician have now solved the problem of free will. Either free will is real, then elementary particles have free will or it doesn't.

So if free will does exist then you will have to agree stuff like apples have free will.

Although the whole idea about realilty being deterministic has really been redundant for decades, now that we have quantum theory.

Not really. It isn't currently known whether or not its deterministic, also I don't see what in quantum mechanics leads you to that view that the universe isn't.

Well, the idea behind determinism is that there is only one set path through time that the universe can take.

Quantum theory introduces inherent randomness, giving us multiple possible futures. Although this has a minor effect now, the whole reason that now is like this is because of the quantum fluctuations at the Big Bang. So we could have had a whole range of very different universes.

I see that you are taking Einstein's stance of saying that quantum physics must have some underlying deterministic mechanism which we can't see... well, I'm not a quantum physicist but I thought that was proved to be incorrect. I could be wrong though. But if we observe something to be random it seems natural to me to assume for the time being that that's exactly what it is.

Well, the idea behind determinism is that there is only one set path through time that the universe can take.

Quantum theory introduces inherent randomness, giving us multiple possible futures. Although this has a minor effect now, the whole reason that now is like this is because of the quantum fluctuations at the Big Bang.

I don't know what you're talking about. Nobody has proven that Quantum theory is random, also saying Quantum mechanics is random does not make it random.

I see that you are taking Einstein's stance of saying that quantum physics must have some underlying deterministic mechanism which we can't see... well, I'm not a quantum physicist but I thought that was proved to be incorrect.

Can you name the experiment that proves that. If you're talking about EPR thats got to with spooky action at an distance effect. Also, it depends what interpretation you take of Quantum mechanics. For example, the many worlds has a deterministic mechanism, but it involves the universe itself splitting off.

But if we observe something to be random it seems natural to me to assume for the time being that that's exactly what it is.

There is a difference between probabilistic and random. Quantum mechanics is probabilistic. Also, unless there is a theory of Quantum gravity you can't really know what Quantum mechanics is.

I understand how this can lead to free will being an illusion....but why would the chip MAKE him do the same things as Dave? He would have to go through the experiences that Dave did in order to get those memories on the chip, otherwise it would just be like watching a movie, so what happens if in this virtual world he goes the other way on a hard decision, such as not talking to a girl who would have been his wife in reality?

Originally Posted by wendylove

I don't know what you're talking about. Nobody has proven that Quantum theory is random, also saying Quantum mechanics is random does not make it random.

Probabilistic = deterministic? Huh?

I don't know what you're talking about. Nobody has proven that Quantum theory is random, also saying Quantum mechanics is random does not make it random.

How on Earth has this passed you by? The mainstream view amongst physicists by far nowadays is that the universe is inherently random, because of the discoveries of quantum mechanics. I can only imagine that you are feigning ignorance here. One of the most famous scientific quotes of all time - "God does not play dice" - is about exactly this issue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mechanics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum...l_consequences

Read more above.

Originally Posted by tkdyo

I understand how this can lead to free will being an illusion....but why would the chip MAKE him do the same things as Dave? He would have to go through the experiences that Dave did in order to get those memories on the chip, otherwise it would just be like watching a movie, so what happens if in this virtual world he goes the other way on a hard decision, such as not talking to a girl who would have been his wife in reality?

Not possible. He gets doesn't get to make any choices, only to perceive what happens. The chip doesn't create a virtual reality platform to let him decide, it just recreates perceptions and thoughts. But it's not a movie; you can tell if something is a movie since it's not really happening, but here he has no idea it's fake. He perceives choice, but has none.

If you limit consciousness to self aware, independent beings, then no free will doesn't exist.

I understand what you are trying to get at...but I dont understand how at some point the mind would not reallize its real, just like in a dream. If the chip has all the experience recorded in them and some how "forces" his mind to go through the same experiences, then it would be just like a dream wouldnt it?

okay so let me get this straight

in this scenario, we experience Dave's thoughts-emotions-memories-actions-and all choices in life as Dave has done so. AND. We are INCAPABLE of having a single thought that is uniquely ours. All of our thoughts, are Dave's. And they are already set in stone. Nothing can change.


I don't find this to be a good philosophical argument against free will

You have controlled every facet of this argument to create an imaginary scenario where its impossible to have free will by ignoring the complexity of the human brain

Here are things that I find plausible in your scenario

1. our memories are erased. happens all the time!
2. a virtual reality is generated. absolutely - we do so every night
3. we experience someone else's reality. sure why not. what is reality? information being processed by a brain?

but this is the part that you seem to be saying, that I find is not realistic. That Dave's thoughts are ours.

The chip may be running on auto pilot. Constantly feeding information into our brains, making us feel things. Making us say things, or at least believe these are our thoughts and this is what I have said.

But here is the problem. You are saying the brain does nothing but experience input. Therefore we can do nothing but experience Dave's reality as the input is recorded on the chip.

But the brain doesn't just experience input.

Human beings are subjective thinkers. Our subjective brains is what makes us so damn human. It doesn't matter if one half of your brain is screaming "I HATE LIFE!" The other half can still say "Shut up, I don't hate life!" or even "these thoughts aren't mine!". Or even, all three!

Always always always, at any moment in your life you can separate yourself from your own reality - as if its a movie. To seperate our I from our own thoughts.

To be able to sit down, close our eyes, and just listen to our thoughts - as if someone else was speaking them. This phenomenon happens to people when they meditate. That they can experience angry or painful thoughts, as much apart of them as the socks they wear.

1. Just because your memories are taken away from you does not mean you are suddenly incapable of thinking your own thoughts, YOU WILL STILL THINK

2. just because a chip bombards your brain with a virtual reality, even virtual thoughts, does not mean you are still incapable of thinking your own thoughts. YOU WILL STILL THINK

3. the thoughts in that chip aren't true thoughts - they would just be input

4. but your real thoughts AREN'T INPUT, they are output. just the opposite

5. and neither do memories define how you are

what does this mean?

Dave can feel happy when X happens and you can feel pissed. And you will experience both simultaneously. we are complex beings, we can experience multiple things and pass it off as normal

You can live as Dave, even with conflicting thoughts and emotions, and be none the wiser

Now imagine the human brain, capable of separating itself from its own reality. Imagine if the human doesn't like something Dave is doing. Imagine if you are screaming in your head "STOP!" When Dave is saying "GO!" How crazy you will feel, when you begin to feel completely out of control of your thoughts and emotions and actions.

Maybe this is what crazy people feel like, like someone else is operating their body

??how does this chip stop your brain from operating on different wavelengths. from entering deeper states of mind??

not all wavelengths, not all brain functions, not all facets of our consciousness are dictated by input. ever dreamed of something you've never seen before, not even in a movie?

There is nothing about this chip from preventing the deeper states of mind from still occurring. Especially when meditation shows us, we can freely put ourselves in these deeper states of mind. Some states of mind, IGNORE what the rest of the brain is doing. Ever fell asleep in class and woke up when your teacher says something about people rudely falling asleep in class? I know I have. A part of my brain was paying attention, and the other part was in la-la-land. My brain was in two places.

Is it possible for the brain to zone out, even fall asleep while the chip is running? Ever not remember how you drove yourself home? Is it possible to not remember what the hell Dave was doing?

And what will happen if the person does start to day dream, remembers the day dream. wakes up from the day dream, and finds himself as dave in the middle of a conversation that was unbroken by this day dream? since the dave program is completely unable to react to the day dream, wouldn't this chips inability to react to the person's true thoughts the ultimate shattering of reality?

For the sake of your own argument, you can argue
1. that the chip stops your brain from being able to generate its own thoughts
2. the chip stops your brain from being able to freely place itself in a deeper state of mind where it will zone out and ignore the chip's virtual reality
3. that the chip stops you from even being able to recall a dave memory when dave isn't remembering something, creating a mind chattering time paradox for the person

But you really wouldn't be arguing against free will. Only arguing an imaginary chip can stop your brain from properly functioning.

Now I am not arguing with you that free will is real or an illusion. By all means, argue its an illusion

I am only trying to say, that this specific scenario is ignoring how complex and multi layered the human brain is. And does a better job of displaying how the ego (Dave in this case) isn't you.

Well it doesn't have to be realistic, that's why it's a a thought experiment. Although I will admit there are some flaws, like plugging in a disembodied brain instead of a human, where does this input go to? Maybe that's a different philosophical question. Or how can the brain maintain the state of the Dave's brain and still be experiencing things in itself? But it's just a simplified way of showing it can be an illusion. To truly consider free will, one must look to any possible source of it, or how can it exist?

Let's do another experiment.

Some psycho puts a gun against your head. And asks if you want to live or die. You answer "I want to live".

Now, no matter how much times we repeat this experiment, the outcome will be the same.

You could either conclude that we don't have free will because we keep answering the same, or you could conclude that we make logical, and thus deterministic decisions.

Each time you make a choice, you proof you have free will. No matter what choice it is. It doesn't mean your choices can be predicted that you are not able to make them...


It's not like your choices are controlled, and thus not free, no, your choices are simply predictable. Determinism and free will can perfectly coexist. The one doesn't cancel out the other.

Enslavement cancels out free will, but not being predictable (determinism).

Claiming we have no free will is like claiming we are puppets being controlled by the puppet master...